Is it okay for Saints players to dive and cheat?

[Sheaf Saint]

So you think he was so off balance that he had no chance in trying to plant either foot on the turf? Fair enough.

 

The instant he decides to drag his foot back, he's only going one way and that's down. Whether he did that deliberately to con the ref or to avoid a potentially bad tackle, only he will know. He should have been aware that if he left his foot in there would definitely have been contact which would have warranted a penalty so there would be no need to dive for it, unless he just didn't fancy getting injured.

[The Kraken]

The instant he decides to drag his foot back, he's only going one way and that's down. Whether he did that deliberately to con the ref or to avoid a potentially bad tackle, only he will know. He should have been aware that if he left his foot in there would definitely have been contact which would have warranted a penalty so there would be no need to dive for it, unless he just didn't fancy getting injured.

 

Had it happened at the other end, do you feel you would have been so understanding of the forward's plight and agreed it was a nailed on pen? As I've said earlier, I'd have been livid if that had been given against Saints.

[Sheaf Saint]

Had it happened at the other end, do you feel you would have been so understanding of the forward's plight and agreed it was a nailed on pen? As I've said earlier, I'd have been livid if that had been given against Saints.

 

I'm not advocating that it was a nailed on pen, I'm just pointing out that it didn't appear to me to be a clear-cut dive that some are making it out to be. Yes if I was a Villa fan tonight I probably would be aggrieved that it was given, but I would be just as livid with my defender for putting in such a terrible tackle in the box and inviting trouble in the first place.

[The Kraken]

I'm not advocating that it was a nailed on pen, I'm just pointing out that it didn't appear to me to be a clear-cut dive that some are making it out to be. Yes if I was a Villa fan tonight I probably would be aggrieved that it was given, but I would be just as livid with my defender for putting in such a terrible tackle in the box and inviting trouble in the first place.

 

Fair enough. Can't say I agree but fair play if that's your opinion. I personally see no reason to disagree with the MOTD analysis that it was a clear dive. Not that it matters any more, 3 points won is great, the peno award only sours it a tiny touch for me.

[Lazlo78]

Looking at the gif above of it (post #180) how would you answer these two questions:

 

1) After JRod has pulled his leg away, do you think he could have placed it on the ground rather than continuing to move it backwards and then falling over forwards?

2) Do you think the movement of pulling his right leg away also caused his left leg to lose all power in it and therefore be unable to make a step with that one?

 

Reluctantly, I would have to agree with this, especially 1). It's not inconcievable that he could have moved his right foot away from the tackle and still continued forwards without falling... I see it as a dive. 3 points feel dirty, but goooooood

[Chewy]

After all the replays, it still looks to me like J Rod pulled his leg away from a legbreaker. How the ref calls it is up to the ref. If J Rod had kept his foot in to avoid being accused of diving and got himself injured, would we all feel better about it?

 

Leg breaker? Seriously?? If he had left his foot in the worst injury he could have suffered was a broken tie nail.

[Windmill Arm 2]

Not according to most independent pundits who stated that it was a push by Ramirez and rightly chalked off.

 

WTF??? Most pundit reviews I've seen stated that it was harsh to rule it out?? Honestly, some people on here just make sh*t up?

 

Mental!!!

[KK the 2nd]

I think Puncheon should have been yellow carded for simulation. He was clearly fouled by the keeper but made out he wasn't - he didn't roll about and got straight back up.

[Ewell]

If that penalty was given against us then this forum would be going into meltdown with 99% of the fans fuming about the decision, the player and the way the player went down.

 

I honestly don't think Rodriguez has dived intentionally and I think he has gone down expecting the challenge which didn't come into contact with him. It was never a penalty and I hate the fact people say they even themselves out, they really don't as we should have had at least 4 others this season.

 

I am delighted we won yesterdays match but winning it with that goal leaves me feeling a bit uncomfortable and feeling a little sorry for a very young Aston Villa team.

[scotty]

Leg breaker? Seriously?? If he had left his foot in the worst injury he could have suffered was a broken tie nail.

 

You can say that from a tv slow motion replay, he had less than a second to decide. Whatever the defender was doing, it looks like an instinctive skip out of the firing line, not a deliberate dive for a penalty shout. And as others have pointed out, he made no attempt whatsoever to claim the pen, most divers leap towards the ref shouting and with their arms up.

[david in sweden]

You can say that from a tv slow motion replay, he had less than a second to decide. Whatever the defender was doing, it looks like an instinctive skip out of the firing line, not a deliberate dive for a penalty shout. And as others have pointed out, he made no attempt whatsoever to claim the pen, most divers leap towards the ref shouting and with their arms up.

 

Agree totally ! (it may have been a doubtful decision from the ref.).. but it is even more wrong to brand JayRod as a cheat!.....but it makes better headlines - doesn't it .

[david in sweden]

I'm not advocating that it was a nailed on pen, I'm just pointing out that it didn't appear to me to be a clear-cut dive that some are making it out to be.

Yes if I was a Villa fan tonight I probably would be aggrieved that it was given, but I would be just as livid with my defender for putting in such a terrible tackle in the box and inviting trouble in the first place.

 

................particularly as it was the only goal in the game......

[Thedelldays]

If that penalty was given against us then this forum would be going into meltdown with 99%

very much so

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

We desperately needed to win this one and we did - but no it's not Okay for our players to cheat. Both the team in general, and Rodriguez in particular, will pay a price for that dive at Villa Park before very long as some future referee decides that the next time he is genuinely fouled in the box he won't give the pen' because of his newly earned reputation.

 

Now you will not find that regulation written down in the laws of the game anywhere, but we all know that is how the game works.

[um pahars]

My biggest gripe in the current game is the play acting, going down like a sack of shtt when you've only been grazed, the rolling around only to get up and sprint off, holding your face when at worst you got a nudge in the shoulder,the general conning of refs.

 

So therefore I am disappointed in J-Rod as its not something I like to see in the game.

 

And as others before have said, my way of judging these events is "what would I be saying had it happened up the other end?".

Edited 13 January, 2013 by um pahars

[obelisk]

I see it as a poor, possibly dangerous, lunging tackle by the Villa defender. J-Rod takes evading action as an instinctive reaction to prevent injury. His weight is forward so the only way to go is down. More a tumble than a dive in my opinion. No contact so probably not a penalty although ref gave it so that's the end of the matter.

 

If it had happened up the other end I'd be disappointed but much more livid about such a reckless challenge by a defender in the penalty area.

[Chewy]

You can say that from a tv slow motion replay, he had less than a second to decide. Whatever the defender was doing, it looks like an instinctive skip out of the firing line, not a deliberate dive for a penalty shout. And as others have pointed out, he made no attempt whatsoever to claim the pen, most divers leap towards the ref shouting and with their arms up.

 

He didnt remonstrate with the ref because he stayed prostrate on the ground for a good few seconds. By which time he'd been given the pen. Seriously, I don't know why people are trying to justify what was clearly a dive. Not the worst dive I've seen, but a dive all the same.

[Barry Sanchez]

I see it as a poor, possibly dangerous, lunging tackle by the Villa defender. J-Rod takes evading action as an instinctive reaction to prevent injury. His weight is forward so the only way to go is down. More a tumble than a dive in my opinion. No contact so probably not a penalty although ref gave it so that's the end of the matter.

 

If it had happened up the other end I'd be disappointed but much more livid about such a reckless challenge by a defender in the penalty area.

 

Sorry mate but if you think evading means falling then you are mistaken.

[Whitey Grandad]

I see it as a poor, possibly dangerous, lunging tackle by the Villa defender. J-Rod takes evading action as an instinctive reaction to prevent injury. His weight is forward so the only way to go is down. More a tumble than a dive in my opinion. No contact so probably not a penalty although ref gave it so that's the end of the matter.

 

If it had happened up the other end I'd be disappointed but much more livid about such a reckless challenge by a defender in the penalty area.

 

A fair assessment. In almost every penalty incident the offended player could make an effort to carry on but they then run the danger of the referee not having to make a decision. As for the overpaid BBC pundits, how many times have they justified a penalty decision by saying 'there was contact' no matter how slight.

[Shroppie]

The problem I have with this whole debate is the difficulty some seem to have in accepting that it's not just a question of a correct penalty or a dive.

 

Between those is a huge grey area of tackles that may or may not be fair and collisions between players, resulting in the attacking player going down. That is not diving. It happens, and my reading of the incident yesterday was that it fell in this category.

 

On the other hand, I dislike intensely the culture of cheating diving that does exist. But who is to blame for that? The players themselves? Encouraged by managers? How often do you hear comments such as "he was entitled to go down - up to the ref to make the decision". And commentators who regularly suggest that players should go down - "he was too honest staying on his feet" "if he goes down the ref has to make a decision".

 

And, on The pen yesterday, I think those who suggest it was given against the keeper may be right - the ref played a moment's advantage until J Rod didn't score. Be interesting if he makes an comment.

 

But I do not accept that there was a deliberate act of cheating.

[Chez]

At the time I thought it was a stick on pen (all be it from 80 meters away) and I therefore don't blame thre ref at all, but quite simply he dived and if given a three match ban (should the rules be changed in the future as they need to) then I'd have no complaints at all.

 

Lineker certainly knows a dive when he sees one. Reminded me of the semi final incident, oly this time the defender didn't make the contact teh striker anticipated.

[miserableoldgit]

The problem I have with this whole debate is the difficulty some seem to have in accepting that it's not just a question of a correct penalty or a dive.

 

Between those is a huge grey area of tackles that may or may not be fair and collisions between players, resulting in the attacking player going down. That is not diving. It happens, and my reading of the incident yesterday was that it fell in this category.

 

On the other hand, I dislike intensely the culture of cheating diving that does exist. But who is to blame for that? The players themselves? Encouraged by managers? How often do you hear comments such as "he was entitled to go down - up to the ref to make the decision". And commentators who regularly suggest that players should go down - "he was too honest staying on his feet" "if he goes down the ref has to make a decision".

 

And, on The pen yesterday, I think those who suggest it was given against the keeper may be right - the ref played a moment's advantage until J Rod didn't score. Be interesting if he makes an comment.

 

But I do not accept that there was a deliberate act of cheating.

Thank you. This is basically what I was trying to say last night but not doing so very well. Hope that you have a tin helmet ready!!

[obelisk]

Sorry mate but if you think evading means falling then you are mistaken.

It's my opinion. I think you're mistaken if you see it as a dive.

 

If someone chucks a brick at my leg when I'm jogging I take evasive action. It's difficult to jog on one leg. Result is likely a tumble and hopefully some action taken against the brick thrower.

[The Kraken]

It's my opinion. I think you're mistaken if you see it as a dive.

 

If someone chucks a brick at my leg when I'm jogging I take evasive action. It's difficult to jog on one leg. Result is likely a tumble and hopefully some action taken against the brick thrower.

 

A tumble, yes. Would your first instinct be to lose all power in both legs and make zero attempt to stumble on, and instead throw yourself straight to the floor? Unlikely.

 

Rodriguez may very well have been trying to avoid the challenge from the defender. I don't think too many people would disagree with that. But in trying to evade it, did he really truly lose power in both legs and therefore was so off balance that he had no other option to just flop straight to the floor? Could he not have at least put his left leg to the floor and tried to stumble on? That's the question, and that's why its being classified by some as a dive even if others are suggesting there were mitigating circumstances for it.

[obelisk]

A tumble, yes. Would your first instinct be to lose all power in both legs and make zero attempt to stumble on, and instead throw yourself straight to the floor? Unlikely.

 

Rodriguez may very well have been trying to avoid the challenge from the defender. I don't think too many people would disagree with that. But in trying to evade it, did he really truly lose power in both legs and therefore was so off balance that he had no other option to just flop straight to the floor? Could he not have at least put his left leg to the floor and tried to stumble on? That's the question, and that's why its being classified by some as a dive even if others are suggesting there were mitigating circumstances for it.

It happened in a split second. If I'm moving forward and about to land on my right foot which I suddenly pull away for some reason it really doesn't matter what my left foot is doing. I'm going to tumble.

 

J-Rod doesn't strike me as a diver. I seem to remember a couple of occasions this season that he's been upended in the box without any reaction from the ref. I give him the benefit of the doubt. At best it's contentious.

[trousers]

If that penalty was given against us then this forum would be going into meltdown with 99% of the fans fuming about the decision

 

Indeed, but this 'debate' is over whether Rodriquez was intentionally looking to con the ref or not.

 

I can't recall many on here saying that it was a penalty. Indeed, most of us giving Rodriquez the benefit of the doubt have also indicated the ref got the decision wrong.

 

So, yes, if I were a Villa fan of course I'd be raging that the penalty was given. Doesn't mean I have to vilify Rodriquez at the same time.

[Whitey Grandad]

A tumble, yes. Would your first instinct be to lose all power in both legs and make zero attempt to stumble on, and instead throw yourself straight to the floor? Unlikely.

 

Rodriguez may very well have been trying to avoid the challenge from the defender. I don't think too many people would disagree with that. But in trying to evade it, did he really truly lose power in both legs and therefore was so off balance that he had no other option to just flop straight to the floor? Could he not have at least put his left leg to the floor and tried to stumble on? That's the question, and that's why its being classified by some as a dive even if others are suggesting there were mitigating circumstances for it.

 

Well I've just had several looks at it again and it doesn't look like a deliberate dive to me. J-Rod gets his right toe to the ball first at which point his left leg is trailing. He then moves his right foot out of the way to avoid the challenge by which time it is too late to bring his left leg forward. How about this interpretation? He manages to get to the ball first and toe-pokes it forward to Rickie and then gets out of the way of the challenge by sprawling forward. It does not look dramatic and he does not immediately look towards the referee and is surprised as anybody when the whistle goes.

[The Kraken]

It happened in a split second. If I'm moving forward and about to land on my right foot which I suddenly pull away for some reason it really doesn't matter what my left foot is doing. I'm going to tumble.

 

J-Rod doesn't strike me as a diver. I seem to remember a couple of occasions this season that he's been upended in the box without any reaction from the ref. I give him the benefit of the doubt. At best it's contentious.

 

No-one is saying he is a diver. That is a label that indicates he does it all the time. Gareth Bale for instance is gaining a reputation as a diver; Rodriguez certainly isn't that. But in this instance, IMO his natural reaction to avoiding a defender's challenge was not to hurdle it, or stumble round it. It was to lift both feet off the air and fall to the ground. He dived out of the way. He could also IMO have avoided the challenge and remained on his feet; there was no need to fall to the ground to avoid the challenge.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Firstly, it was a dive, end of.

 

Secondly, there's not a Villa player on the pitch that would not have done the same thing if it meant the difference between 3 points and none. I seriously doubt if one member of the Saints staff mentioned it to Jay Rod, or said "you should have stayed on your feet". The only time clubs will deal with dives is when they start affecting Ref's decisions ie I think Lallana has not got penos because he's been exaggerating contact.

 

Thirdly, Lambert hit the nail on the head and Mick Quinn made the same point this morning on Talksport. Had that gone against us, Lambert & Quinn would not have blamed the striker, but the defender for diving in for the ball like that.

 

Finally, Mike Atherton summed it up when talking about cheating. Said he never walked when he hit the ball, and if given not out stood his ground. He said that plenty of times he hadn't hit the ball and the umpire gave him out, that he felt he should just take the rough with the smooth and leave it up to the umpire. If he's given out,when he's in, so be it and visa versa. Same with us, it's not Paul Lambert's job to give Peno's it's the referee's. Just as it was the referee's job to decide if Gaston's Arsenal "goal" stood or not.One went for us, one against.

[The Kraken]

Well I've just had several looks at it again and it doesn't look like a deliberate dive to me. J-Rod gets his right toe to the ball first at which point his left leg is trailing. He then moves his right foot out of the way to avoid the challenge by which time it is too late to bring his left leg forward. How about this interpretation? He manages to get to the ball first and toe-pokes it forward to Rickie and then gets out of the way of the challenge by sprawling forward. It does not look dramatic and he does not immediately look towards the referee and is surprised as anybody when the whistle goes.

 

Fair enough if that's what you think; that he was so off balance from moving his right leg that his left leg gave way too and he therefore fell to the floor. I can't agree with that, certainly not from reviewing the gif at post 180, but fair play if that's your contention.

[obelisk]

The law says:

A direct free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any of the following seven offences in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force:

 

kicks or attempts to kick an opponent

trips or attempts to trip an opponent

jumps at an opponent

charges an opponent

strikes or attempts to strike an opponent

pushes an opponent

tackles an opponent

 

There's at least a couple of such offences committed by the Villa defender. It could even be said that the 'keeper committed an offence a moment earlier.

Penalty is therefore correct in my opinion.

[Whitey Grandad]

Fair enough if that's what you think; that he was so off balance from moving his right leg that his left leg gave way too and he therefore fell to the floor. I can't agree with that, certainly not from reviewing the gif at post 180, but fair play if that's your contention.

 

What I was trying to say was that the fall may have been an intentional part of moving the ball on to Rickie and at the same time avoiding the tackle and not an intention to deceive. The way that both arms go forward would seem to support this. (Surely post #180 is a spoof?)

[the stain]

It's my opinion. I think you're mistaken if you see it as a dive.

 

If someone chucks a brick at my leg when I'm jogging I take evasive action. It's difficult to jog on one leg. Result is likely a tumble and hopefully some action taken against the brick thrower.

 

Why would someone throw a brick at your leg whilst you were jogging? Where do you go jogging?

[Chewy]

The law says:

 

 

There's at least a couple of such offences committed by the Villa defender. It could even be said that the 'keeper committed an offence a moment earlier.

Penalty is therefore correct in my opinion.

 

How is it an offence to tackle??

[Thedelldays]

Every single one of you would be utter livid had we lost that game with that penalty given against us

 

Remember the reading home game and the dogs abuse Jason Roberts got for going down easily with minimal contact

 

The beauty of football fans. Completely biased

[Barry Sanchez]

It's my opinion. I think you're mistaken if you see it as a dive.

 

If someone chucks a brick at my leg when I'm jogging I take evasive action. It's difficult to jog on one leg. Result is likely a tumble and hopefully some action taken against the brick thrower.

 

No taking evasive action as you put it is reactionary and understandable under those circumstances, falling to the floor like that is suprising, would your evasive action involve that if someone was throwing a brick at you?

[The Kraken]

What I was trying to say was that the fall may have been an intentional part of moving the ball on to Rickie and at the same time avoiding the tackle and not an intention to deceive. The way that both arms go forward would seem to support this. (Surely post #180 is a spoof?)

 

No, I get what you're saying. I just don't think there's any need to hit the deck in the way he did just to avoid the challenge. And absolutely not with the left leg.

 

And I think you must have looked at the wrong post. #180 is this one.

 

[SaintSteve]

I think Lambert's comment was most accurate; the defender went to ground with a reckless attempt to get the ball.. J-Rod reacted to seeing it coming and lost his foothold. Sh*t happens.. the ref made a mistake.

[the stain]

I seriously cannot believe people are claiming Jay didn't dive. I know no-one wants to to think of their team or players cheating, but that's what happened. I don't think he is a habitual cheater or diver, I think he got carried away in the moment, in wanting to win a crucial game and dived. I don't think we'll see him him do it again and, to be honest, I'm grateful of the three points and 15th place is not to be sniffed at. But, to claim that he didn't dive, in my opinion, is delusional.

[OldNick]

At no time did JRod appeal for a foul.I think intent can still be seen as a foul. Had the player not lunged at him he would not have had to take evasive action.Nobody mentioned about Matas dive. Had the tackle on Ramirez been on a top 4 teams player, it would be the headlines on SSN ,asking for the player to be banned.

[SaintSteve]

I seriously cannot believe people are claiming Jay didn't dive. I know no-one wants to to think of their team or players cheating, but that's what happened. I don't think he is a habitual cheater or diver, I think he got carried away in the moment, in wanting to win a crucial game and dived. I don't think we'll see him him do it again and, to be honest, I'm grateful of the three points and 15th place is not to be sniffed at. But, to claim that he didn't dive, in my opinion, is delusional.

 

You stick to your opinion.. but there is nothing conclusive in the replays to show that he dived, OR he slipped trying to avoid studs contacting his ankle.. I did not see too many claims either.

[Thedelldays]

They are even showing him goals on Sunday that when he went down he cheekily looks where the ref is... IE, seeing if he will give a decision

 

I do love football and how people are desperately wanting him to have not dived. He dived instinctively and if we lost the game like that we ALL would be going utterly mental at the cheat. And don't pretend any of you would not

[Barry the Badger]

Why are we debating this like it happened in slow motion? Like he had ages to think about and make decision about what to do.

 

It happened in a split second, he anticipated contact, it didn't come, he's not the first and he won't be the last.

[The Kraken]

They are even showing him goals on Sunday that when he went down he cheekily looks where the ref is... IE, seeing if he will give a decision

 

I do love football and how people are desperately wanting him to have not dived. He dived instinctively and if we lost the game like that we ALL would be going utterly mental at the cheat. And don't pretend any of you would not

 

Its actually quite amusing seeing the increased determination on here to avoid saying that one of our players had an exaggerated reaction to win a penalty. As if it damns us as a club and is a bitter blow that we'll never recover from if we admit it. He dived, plain and simple. It'll be forgotten about by the next game. Gareth Bale has been booked for it 5 times this season, I don't think we're in the category just yet.

 

It'll be interesting to see what happens on here the next time we have a dodgy penalty given against us because of simulation. If this thread is anything to go by I imagine that there will a lot of sympathy for the diving striker and the fact that there doesn't have to be contact made for him to collapse to the floor like he's been shot.

[The Kraken]

Why are we debating this like it happened in slow motion? Like he had ages to think about and make decision about what to do.

 

It happened in a split second, he anticipated contact, it didn't come, he's not the first and he won't be the last.

 

Perhaps because at the time (in real time) it did actually look like a foul. Shearer on MOTD last night said it was a dive, but that when we saw it first time round he thought it was a penalty. A dive, and a pretty good one apparently.

[Barry Sanchez]

Rodriguez did not look for the penalty when he went to the floor which is very important, when was the last time a striker who legitimately went down in the box by a foul did not appeal for a penalty? He did not appeal as he knew it was not a penalty, why was he seen to say I didn't dive to Villa players, if he didn't dive he was tripped? There was no contact so he was not tripped we can see that so he thought he ws about to be kicked so he fell to the ground, the manner that he threw himself to the ground says it all, simulation pure and simple.

[Sour Mash]

Don't think it was a dive. If a defender stabs his foot out, why should the attacker just let it hit him?

[miserableoldgit]

Its actually quite amusing seeing the increased determination on here to avoid saying that one of our players had an exaggerated reaction to win a penalty. As if it damns us as a club and is a bitter blow that we'll never recover from if we admit it. He dived, plain and simple. It'll be forgotten about by the next game. Gareth Bale has been booked for it 5 times this season, I don't think we're in the category just yet.

 

It'll be interesting to see what happens on here the next time we have a dodgy penalty given against us because of simulation. If this thread is anything to go by I imagine that there will a lot of sympathy for the diving striker and the fact that there doesn't have to be contact made for him to collapse to the floor like he's been shot.

What is amusing to me is that those who think that he deliberately dived are SO convinced that they are right that those of us that think that he didn`t dive are dimissed as biased and wearing red and white glasses. Surely the fact that there is such a split of opinions on here indicates that the situation is not as clear cut as it might be. I still maintain that he did not dive looking for a penalty. That is my opinion and I am allowed to have it..........aren`t I?

[Thedelldays]

Haha. Brilliant

 

You just know that when/if a player does to us what Rodriguez done, this place will be pretty unanimous with condemnation. And has in the past

 

Don't you just love football!!

[landford.saint]

1. I do not like divers.

2. Rodriguez dived.

3. We won.

4. I am therefore in a bit of a conflict of morals, and will therefore try and self justify Rodriguez actions.

 

Bo!!oxs I'll take the 3 points and suffer the mental anguish.