Britain leaving the EU not in US interests

[solentstars]

In a an ideal world it WOULD go before the people. But how many of you if you are TOTALLY honest believe you would a) listen to the arguments for an against with an open mind, b) have the willingness to research, absorb and understand the intricacies of ALL EU policy to ensure you place everythijng oin the pro or con camp appropriately, c) the will power to fully put aside any inate bias based on existing political rhetoric/party line and the ridiculous yet very influencial element of the principle of sovereignty to hand on heart make an informed and educated choice on the matter? the ego driven sense of nationalism is often too ingrained for many to give it a fair hearing anyway. - Always been why the Tories have been and always will be so divided on Europe - with the old guard nationalists opposed to anything foreign bugger interfering, versus the capitalists recognizing the economic benefits to tehir self serving industry (and they know that teh current economic climate may make it look unattractive, but they also know they made a killing when all was rosey 7 or 8 years ago...)

 

That is the problem. There are pros and cons -with the pros only increasing the more influence a nation has within the EU eg Germany. Our influence is currently far lower than the threshold for what most folk would consider necessary for there to be a benefit - mostly because we have spent most of our membership time on the outside pis sing in...

 

Good post and summary.

 

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[Saintandy666]

but you and BTF rarely fail to make a political point without backing it up with a guardian link.....just saying

 

Utterly untrue. I will admit I occasionally do do that(certainly not 'rarely fail'), along with other publications as well where relevant. However, the piece I quoted was by Andrew Rawnsley, who while being an Observer columnist, has written for a wide range of publications of all opinions and is very well respected. Also, you should note that the piece I quoted wasn't an assessment of whether our place in the EU is correct or not, it's an assessment of any potential referendum campaign.

[Wes Tender]

The Eurosceptics want a new relationship. Something like Norway. Fine. You pay, but no say." thats the bit that made me laugh its like leaving the premier league and being relegated to the conference and living on memorys of the good old days while the world moves on.

 

No it isn't. It's saying that we are fed up of being one of just two net contributors but not having a say on how our money is spent commensurate with what we put in. Your analogy saying that if we leave it will make us the equivalent of a team relegated to the Conference League from the Premiership is what is so laughable. If you want to employ a football analogy, us leaving will be like Barcelona losing Messi. He will always find another team really pleased to have him, whereas Barcelona will find it hard to replace him. In the same way that Europe will find it difficult to find another mug like us to pour money down their drain.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

We have never had an influence in Europe because we joined too late. The French and the Germans run the show and we always tagged along because we believed it was in our economic interest. Our relationship should be renegotiated because finally they really need us with Spain, Italy, Greece, Portugal, Ireland effectively ruined.

[Barry Sanchez]

In a an ideal world it WOULD go before the people. But how many of you if you are TOTALLY honest believe you would a) listen to the arguments for an against with an open mind, b) have the willingness to research, absorb and understand the intricacies of ALL EU policy to ensure you place everythijng oin the pro or con camp appropriately, c) the will power to fully put aside any inate bias based on existing political rhetoric/party line and the ridiculous yet very influencial element of the principle of sovereignty to hand on heart make an informed and educated choice on the matter? the ego driven sense of nationalism is often too ingrained for many to give it a fair hearing anyway. - Always been why the Tories have been and always will be so divided on Europe - with the old guard nationalists opposed to anything foreign bugger interfering, versus the capitalists recognizing the economic benefits to tehir self serving industry (and they know that teh current economic climate may make it look unattractive, but they also know they made a killing when all was rosey 7 or 8 years ago...)

 

That is the problem. There are pros and cons -with the pros only increasing the more influence a nation has within the EU eg Germany. Our influence is currently far lower than the threshold for what most folk would consider necessary for there to be a benefit - mostly because we have spent most of our membership time on the outside pis sing in...

 

There are many in Germany that also want out, there are different groups

 

Small Countries who obviously benefit, Ireland, Greece,Portugal

Large companies who seek closer intergration for cheaper costs and this is the main one as big business is generally closer to the right than it is the left, the tories will have to tread carefully on that issue and they will lose donations and big hitting supporters.

People who feel that Europe has alienated them from their power base and taken it to a centralized place.

Loss of identity.

Less power to impose law, taxation and military defence.

More bureaucracy.

[Lord Duckhunter]

The lefties are all over the place when it comes to the EU debate. Forget about straight bananas and nonsense like that, but it's an absolute fact that if I went on TV tonight and denied there was ever a Holocaust German police could come and arrest me. This is despite the fact I'd never set foot in Germany and even more worrying the offense I've committed in my home country is not an offense at all. Can you imagine the lefties putting up with that if it was the Usa. If I went on British TV and critised gun laws in the US and their police came over and arrested me. I'd have that fit Asian Liberty bird all over my case, lefties would be protesting and the Guardian would be jumping up and down, even Andy would post a Guardian link on here protesting. Yet not a Dickie bird, because it is Europe.

 

Same with the economic argument. If Obama promised to wipe out our debts, pay X amount into the exchequer each year for the UK to become another US state, the lefties would say no. Economics should have nothing to do with it, it's about freedom and liberty to govern ourselves and hold our elected Representatives to account.

 

Another example of the warped pro European thinking came from that old fossil Ming Campbell on Monday's Daily Politics, after a piece about the coalition's record and agreement that more should be done about unemployment there was a discussion about Europe. Old Ming put the view forward that freedom of movement was a great thing even from Poland and the Eastern bloc. He said that without migrants the service industry would collapse. My thoughts were maybe we should get the unemployed to work in the service industry, removing the need for these EU migrants. The other thing is surely it would be possible for an independent UK to decide how many and which immigrants we could let in. Ming's line seemed to be, either have free movement of everybody, or have no movement at all. That is what warped the EU debate 40 years ago and it warps it now. The argument that its all or nothing, that somehow we will become irrelevant without the Greeks, Portuguese, Irish, and Belgians behind us. It's complete and utter nonsense. If we have the goods, services and people that other countries want, they'll trade with us.We dont need a failed political experiment holding our hand .

 

Of course people like Ming and other EU nutters like Clarke,Blair and Hestletine told us it would be crazy to stay out of the Euro.

[solentstars]

The lefties are all over the place when it comes to the EU debate. Forget about straight bananas and nonsense like that, but it's an absolute fact that if I went on TV tonight and denied there was ever a Holocaust German police could come and arrest me. This is despite the fact I'd never set foot in Germany and even more worrying the offense I've committed in my home country is not an offense at all. Can you imagine the lefties putting up with that if it was the Usa. If I went on British TV and critised gun laws in the US and their police came over and arrested me. I'd have that fit Asian Liberty bird all over my case, lefties would be protesting and the Guardian would be jumping up and down, even Andy would post a Guardian link on here protesting. Yet not a Dickie bird, because it is Europe.

 

Same with the economic argument. If Obama promised to wipe out our debts, pay X amount into the exchequer each year for the UK to become another US state, the lefties would say no. Economics should have nothing to do with it, it's about freedom and liberty to govern ourselves and hold our elected Representatives to account.

 

Another example of the warped pro European thinking came from that old fossil Ming Campbell on Monday's Daily Politics, after a piece about the coalition's record and agreement that more should be done about unemployment there was a discussion about Europe. Old Ming put the view forward that freedom of movement was a great thing even from Poland and the Eastern bloc. He said that without migrants the service industry would collapse. My thoughts were maybe we should get the unemployed to work in the service industry, removing the need for these EU migrants. The other thing is surely it would be possible for an independent UK to decide how many and which immigrants we could let in. Ming's line seemed to be, either have free movement of everybody, or have no movement at all. That is what warped the EU debate 40 years ago and it warps it now. The argument that its all or nothing, that somehow we will become irrelevant without the Greeks, Portuguese, Irish, and Belgians behind us. It's complete and utter nonsense. If we have the goods, services and people that other countries want, they'll trade with us.We dont need a failed political experiment holding our hand .

 

Of course people like Ming and other EU nutters like Clarke,Blair and Hestletine told us it would be crazy to stay out of the Euro.

 

What a load of nonsence you ruin your warped view of the world with the term lefties .it was the tories who joined the EEC when the labour left wanted nothing to do with it. Thank god the Tory nut cases are being isolated and i hope they leave and find their natural home in ukip .

 

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[pap]

We have never had an influence in Europe because we joined too late. The French and the Germans run the show and we always tagged along because we believed it was in our economic interest. Our relationship should be renegotiated because finally they really need us with Spain, Italy, Greece, Portugal, Ireland effectively ruined.

 

Succinct post, Sergei - and one I agree with.

 

The EU needs us more than we need the EU, despite the persistent noise from some of our European partners that Britain should shut up or get out.

 

Problem is, even renegotiation will still see the average Brit facing the same problems. The US wants us in. Business loves a labour market of 500m people.

 

The potential benefits, such as the ability to live and work anywhere in the Union, don't seem so great when so many parts of the Union, us included, are having enough trouble finding work for their native citizens.

[scotty]

Look for years now and under so called different Govts the UK has always done what the US tells them to do.

Can't see that stopping now and I strongly suspect either a referendum won't be held for some reason or other

and if it is the "result" will be a narrow victory to stay in. Remember Dr Kelly if you think the UK establishment

will really let the UK plebs decide against what the establishment want.

 

Also Al-Megrahi and Lockerbie.

[aintforever]

Who gives a rats @rse what America thinks?

[Wade Garrett]

If we could do a deal with Brussels that protects our borders from mass immigration, and removes our laws being set by unelected officials in the EU, then I don't think many would really give a toss about staying in.

 

If a satisfactory deal can't be done, then put it to the people. We, the general unwashed, are the ones mostly affected by the main issues. The intelligentsia just sit in their ivory towers totally unaffected, passing judgement.

[buctootim]

we are fed up of being one of just two net contributors but not having a say on how our money is spent commensurate with what we put in.

 

 

Our net contribution to the EU is around 80p pw each - 60 euros per year. Compare that with £190 pw / £10,000 pa each going to the UK government. People get their knickers twisted about the EU because its in British politicians interests to blame someone else and a lot of people are gullible. As a country we need to grow up a bit and think for ourselves based on facts, not the latest half truth roundly twisted by the tabloids.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8036097.stm#start

Edited 10 January, 2013 by buctootim

[Wade Garrett]

 

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8036097.stm#start

 

That is the net by population chart. Distorted, I would say, by our rapidly increasing population. Press the Net contribution button, to show what we actually pay, gives a slightly different picture.

[buctootim]

That is the net by population chart. Distorted, I would say, by our rapidly increasing population. Press the Net contribution button, to show what we actually pay, gives a slightly different picture.

 

Its what a country pays nett per person which matters. Saying we pay more than Lithunania or Luxembourg is true but tells you nothing. Anyway the point is that the EU budgets are trivial compared with domestic spend.

[Dangermouth]

Good post and summary.

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

 

Interesting. Negotiations with many others from various continental European states has tended towards a bit of a 'please everyone a little' consensus when I've been involved in such. The other side of the coin is Eurovision. How much will/does this mirror what happens elsewhere? And who, ultimately, perhaps has the say on who goes to war and where (if ever required)? I've met many a Eurosceptic abroad, not just the English/British.

 

And who determines who gets what influence and how? Ultimately the most powerful (Germany) or does their influence stretch only so far as protection of their national interest (ironic) or lending more money to Greece (flushing it down the pan) with a degree of enmity felt by both the Germans for subsidising the lazy Greeks and the Greeks for being told what to do by the supercilious Germans?

[Wade Garrett]

Its what a country pays nett per person which matters. Saying we pay more than Lithunania or Luxembourg is true but tells you nothing. Anyway the point is that the EU budgets are trivial compared with domestic spend.

 

It's not so much the budget that bothers me to be honest. It's the loss of sovereignty and the free for all that is our immigration policy at the moment.

 

The present EU isn't fit for purpose. The euro crisis more than proves that point.

[buctootim]

Interesting. Negotiations with many others from various continental European states has tended towards a bit of a 'please everyone a little' consensus when I've been involved in such. The other side of the coin is Eurovision. How much will/does this mirror what happens elsewhere? And who, ultimately, perhaps has the say on who goes to war and where (if ever required)? I've met many a Eurosceptic abroad, not just the English/British.

 

And who determines who gets what influence and how? Ultimately the most powerful (Germany) or does their influence stretch only so far as protection of their national interest (ironic) or lending more money to Greece (flushing it down the pan) with a degree of enmity felt by both the Germans for subsidising the lazy Greeks and the Greeks for being told what to do by the supercilious Germans?

 

I have a lot of reservations about the EU. Close political union between a small group of similar countries might have worked but one size will never fit all for 27 countries stretching from the Arctic circle to the Balkans.

 

No-one like whats happening in Greece. Given that the Greek government lied and fiddled the figures for years until it was too late the EU has a choice from two bad options - pump money in or let the country collapse, default and have many of the European banks dragged under. The second option would cost more in the long run.

[buctootim]

It's not so much the budget that bothers me to be honest. It's the loss of sovereignty and the free for all that is our immigration policy at the moment.

 

The present EU isn't fit for purpose. The euro crisis more than proves that point.

 

The open doors within the EU policy works both ways. Arguably the UK is better off by having 2 million mostly healthy working age eastern europeans coming here and shipping off 2 million ageing, healthcare intensive pensioners to the Spanish costas.

 

The euro was a bad idea without financial union - but the fact we we werent compelled to join is relevant (along with Sweden and Denmark). Alot of the scare stories about the EU are just that.

Edited 10 January, 2013 by buctootim

[Lord Duckhunter]

What a load of nonsence you ruin your warped view of the world with the term lefties .it was the tories who joined the EEC when the labour left wanted nothing to do with it. Thank god the Tory nut cases are being isolated and i hope they leave and find their natural home in ukip .

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

 

What i actually said was that lefties are all over the place over Europe, not that lefties alone support it, I'm fully aware or grocer heaths role in taking us into this ridiculous vanity project. My point was that foregin police force can arrest a British citizan on UK soil over a crime that is not a crime in the UK. Lefties are jumping up and down over that sort of thing, until it involves "the project".

 

Like it or not far from from"being isolated" the people calling for withdrawal are on the up. Ukip above labour and lib/dems in last euro elections, opinion polls showing that as majority view. It's your side of the arguement that won't put it to the people not mine.

[Sour Mash]

The open doors within the EU policy works both ways. Arguably the UK is better off by having 2 million mostly healthy working age eastern europeans coming here and shipping off 2 million ageing, healthcare intensive pensioners to the Spanish costas.

 

The euro was a bad idea without financial union - but the fact we we werent compelled to join is relevant (along with Sweden and Denmark). Alot of the scare stories about the EU are just that.

2 million British OAPs moved to the Costas - you sure about that? As stated above, our loss of sovereignty and border control are reason enough to keep our distance.

[Wes Tender]

What a load of nonsence you ruin your warped view of the world with the term lefties .it was the tories who joined the EEC when the labour left wanted nothing to do with it. Thank god the Tory nut cases are being isolated and i hope they leave and find their natural home in ukip .

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

 

We joined a trading area. The name Common Market ought to give you some clue as to what was intended at the time.

 

Since then, the entire basis of what it is and what it stands for has altered and we, the electorate, have not been consulted as to whether we wanted that.

 

Believe it or not, there are people to the left and the right of most parties, so as well as lefties in the Tory party, there are those to the right of the Labout party. There are even nutcases in the Labour party whose natural home would more comfortably be the Socialists Workers Party.

 

Sent from my desk computer using two finger typing.

[solentstars]

We joined a trading area. The name Common Market ought to give you some clue as to what was intended at the time.

 

Since then, the entire basis of what it is and what it stands for has altered and we, the electorate, have not been consulted as to whether we wanted that.

 

Believe it or not, there are people to the left and the right of most parties, so as well as lefties in the Tory party, there are those to the right of the Labout party. There are even nutcases in the Labour party whose natural home would more comfortably be the Socialists Workers Party.

 

Sent from my desk computer using two finger typing.

 

Thanks I expect you also love dads army while you type with your two fingers. I voted in the 1975 referendum and anyone who bothered to read the documents will tell you that the aim of the then EEC was ever closer union since it was formed. .we are not going to leave ever for a fantasy world because no government of left or right are that stupid.

I would also like to thank thatcher s government for the single European market act which was great for businesses and one of the biggest loss of sovereignty.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

Edited 11 January, 2013 by solentstars

[Lord Duckhunter]

So that's it then, because you think its stupid to leave, we'll leave it at that shall we? Why don't we just stop having expensive elections and just let you and people you agree with govern us. You've demonstrated exactly the behaviours we've come to expect from the EU supporters. The we know what's best for you attitude.

 

A vote on it?" How dare you ask for a vote, you had one 40 years ago."

 

Vote against us?" how dare you, vote again and again".

 

I bet you thought the euro was a good idea, didn't you?

See that's the thing, 15 years ago people against the euro were being insulted. Yet they were right, the euro nuts were wrong.

[solentstars]

So that's it then, because you think its stupid to leave, we'll leave it at that shall we? Why don't we just stop having expensive elections and just let you and people you agree with govern us. You've demonstrated exactly the behaviours we've come to expect from the EU supporters. The we know what's best for you attitude.

 

A vote on it?" How dare you ask for a vote, you had one 40 years ago."

 

Vote against us?" how dare you, vote again and again".

 

I bet you thought the euro was a good idea, didn't you?

See that's the thing, 15 years ago people against the euro were being insulted. Yet they were right, the euro nuts were wrong.

 

I don't think you realise parliament makes our decisions has our elected representives by us.if you don't like anything to do with Europe you can always vote ukip. I don't understand people who vote for one party all there life and if Europe matters so much to you ukip is the only party who wants to push us to the margins of a isolated nation.I don't understand why the loons of the Tory right don't defect to ukip if Europe is hated by them so much maybe they like their perks.so much for principles.

 

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[Wes Tender]

I don't think you realise parliament makes our decisions has our elected representives by us.if you don't like anything to do with Europe you can always vote ukip. I don't understand people who vote for one party all there life and if Europe matters so much to you ukip is the only party who wants to push us to the margins of a isolated nation.I don't understand why the loons of the Tory right don't defect to ukip if Europe is hated by them so much maybe they like their perks.so much for principles.

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

 

That was a very creditable attempt to speak English. I'll try to understood what you were trying to say in order to answer you. It can't be the fault of your Nexus 4 (phone?), as presumably that is only capable of text recognition, or maybe even voice recognition; who knows? It is patently not capable of correcting grammar, or was the grammar correct and the phone buggered it up? As I say, who knows about these things?

 

I do know what the Treaty of Rome was all about when we applied to join the Common Market, as I campaigned for it as a Conservative. And the sort of changes that have been forced on the British people since without their consent, were not proposed at that time. Had they been, then I'm pretty sure that entry would have been rejected. In fact, I recall well enough that it was actually denied that what we were joining was anything other than a trading block and that we had no need to worry about loss of sovereignty. But even as a Thatcherite Tory, I did not approve of the changes brought about by Maggie at Maastricht and felt strongly that the electorate should have voted on it then.

 

Regarding Dad's Army, if you voted in the original Referendum, you can't be much younger than me. What's your favourite television programme? All our Yesterdays?

[solentstars]

That was a very creditable attempt to speak English. I'll try to understood what you were trying to say in order to answer you. It can't be the fault of your Nexus 4 (phone?), as presumably that is only capable of text recognition, or maybe even voice recognition; who knows? It is patently not capable of correcting grammar, or was the grammar correct and the phone buggered it up? As I say, who knows about these things?

 

I do know what the Treaty of Rome was all about when we applied to join the Common Market, as I campaigned for it as a Conservative. And the sort of changes that have been forced on the British people since without their consent, were not proposed at that time. Had they been, then I'm pretty sure that entry would have been rejected. In fact, I recall well enough that it was actually denied that what we were joining was anything other than a trading block and that we had no need to worry about loss of sovereignty. But even as a Thatcherite Tory, I did not approve of the changes brought about by Maggie at Maastricht and felt strongly that the electorate should have voted on it then.

 

Regarding Dad's Army, if you voted in the original Referendum, you can't be much younger than me. What's your favourite television programme? All our Yesterdays?

same has yours fantasy island

[Frank's cousin]

There are many in Germany that also want out, there are different groups

 

Small Countries who obviously benefit, Ireland, Greece,Portugal - this in natural and part of its purpose

Large companies who seek closer intergration for cheaper costs and this is the main one as big business is generally closer to the right than it is the left, the tories will have to tread carefully on that issue and they will lose donations and big hitting supporters. - agreed

People who feel that Europe has alienated them from their power base and taken it to a centralized place. - ??? Not sure I understand what you mean here

Loss of identity. - TOTAL BS - Identifty is never eroded by these integration, would you say that the Scots or Welsh, Geordies or Scousers have lost any sense of identity by being integrated within the UK? In addition on a more philosophical note, national identifty is a load of tosh anyway... our borders are all artificial, and recent in evolutionary terms, and in another 1000 years (nothing in the 4 billion age of the earth)

Less power to impose law, taxation and military defence., will no doubt ahve changed again - part of the natural order. We have have been taught only in the last 1000 years or so that nationality is important - by thsoe who benefit from isolating wealth giving lands for themselves and using the populace to defend them for their own gains... thats not politics, just historical fact.

More bureaucracy. - Only because of duplicity, integration was meant to prevent that

 

Of course there are many who will state they dont want EU integration - and as some have said, democracy should be allowed to play its part in deciding whether a nation wishes to be part or not. But my earlier point is that with this issue you NEVER get a result based on the the real pros and cons - beacuse too many are obsessed with an unhealthy nationalism that I have never seen or heard a valid defence for - especially when put in context of how recent and artificial our borders are in the grand scheme of things.

[Frank's cousin]

So that's it then, because you think its stupid to leave, we'll leave it at that shall we? Why don't we just stop having expensive elections and just let you and people you agree with govern us. You've demonstrated exactly the behaviours we've come to expect from the EU supporters. The we know what's best for you attitude.

 

A vote on it?" How dare you ask for a vote, you had one 40 years ago."

 

Vote against us?" how dare you, vote again and again".

 

I bet you thought the euro was a good idea, didn't you?

See that's the thing, 15 years ago people against the euro were being insulted. Yet they were right, the euro nuts were wrong.

 

As an idea it IS a good one - there are benefits/pros and cons as everyone can see. Like all these major shifts in policy, its never going to be smooth sailing all the time and the current mess was NOT caused by the Euro - but by a global banking system gone mad. Yes thsoe markets in the deep shiedt may find it easier had they their own currancy right now, but also benefited during the 'good times'.

 

And would you say that our current situation meant we were isloated from this global meltdown?

 

Again thsi is the biggest problem with the EU debate - the fact that ultimately for 90% of thsoe who express an opinon on it will do so based on their innate nationalism or political line, rather than looking to assess all the pros and cons to make an informed decision.

[Lord Duckhunter]

As an idea it IS a good one - there are benefits/pros and cons as everyone can see. Like all these major shifts in policy, its never going to be smooth sailing all the time and the current mess was NOT caused by the Euro - but by a global banking system gone mad. Yes thsoe markets in the deep shiedt may find it easier had they their own currancy right now, but also benefited during the 'good times'.

 

.

 

The idea of a single currency without economic union is NOT a good idea, has never been a good idea and will never be a good idea. The mess in Europe was made worse by countries being unable to control the levers needed to weather the economic storm.

[Frank's cousin]

The idea of a single currency without economic union is NOT a good idea, has never been a good idea and will never be a good idea. The mess in Europe was made worse by countries being unable to control the levers needed to weather the economic storm.

 

In your opinion. Yet the economists in major EU nations (and please let me know if your level of knowledge in Economics exceeds that of the experts at governmental level) believe it was and is - with many nations agreeing. Yes there will obviously be pros and cons - nothing like this is ever going to be straight forward, and therefore there are also plenty of experts who may agree with you, but to suggest its a simple black and white issue is somewhat arrogant and a major part of the problem with this debate.

[moonraker]

It is my opinion that the principle of the single currency and indeed a closely allied (politcally) europe is a good one (note this is not a fact). Setting aside the global economic problems the Euro zone is to a large extent is suffering from the moving of the convergence criteria to allow those countries who are now causing the problems to join. If the original criteria had been enforced then Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal would not have been admitted. The evolution of the EU should not come as surprise to anyone, it’s how the world moves on, not by dreaming of a golden age of British Empire (Commonwealth), school boys in short trousers and caps, secure borders with no Johnny foreigners trespassing on our green and pleasant land.

I have had many conversations with people who are anti euro yet who in the next breadth poor scorn on the idea of an independent Scotland. Personally I would like the ancient kingdom of Wessex to be re-established with its own Arthurian King and Camelot as the capital. Opps this is the 21st century the world has changed and will change a lot more going backwards is no way to keep up.

[derry]

All blocs, alliances etc have a finite life, eventually they become corrupt/defunct and the people dictate what happens. The only people that can't see we are coming out of the EU are the politicians and vested interests. It is just a matter of time.

[Frank's cousin]

It is my opinion that the principle of the single currency and indeed a closely allied (politcally) europe is a good one (note this is not a fact). Setting aside the global economic problems the Euro zone is to a large extent is suffering from the moving of the convergence criteria to allow those countries who are now causing the problems to join. If the original criteria had been enforced then Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal would not have been admitted. The evolution of the EU should not come as surprise to anyone, it’s how the world moves on, not by dreaming of a golden age of British Empire (Commonwealth), school boys in short trousers and caps, secure borders with no Johnny foreigners trespassing on our green and pleasant land.

I have had many conversations with people who are anti euro yet who in the next breadth poor scorn on the idea of an independent Scotland. Personally I would like the ancient kingdom of Wessex to be re-established with its own Arthurian King and Camelot as the capital. Opps this is the 21st century the world has changed and will change a lot more going backwards is no way to keep up.

 

Agreed.

 

Any such union comes with pros and cons on which its success or otherwise shoul be judged alone. Sadly my feeling is that to often the 'little Englander' mentality skews the nationak opinion againts it without actually taking the time and onsideration to review in detail the pluses and minuses - that's my point really. I dont have a the time ither to dig through those mountains so I can not state categorically that I would be in favour had I time to digest it all.

 

I think there are simply too many in this country though that would be aganst it even if the there was factually no major disadvantages - which is not helped by the UK opting out on so many of the policies that would benefit people/employees rather than satisfying the UK employers... all in the interests of the countries economy obviously, but then again, the Germans aint doing too bad despite having better employee rights within a right wing government.

 

There is a problem (often played upon by the right wing press) that many feel uncomfortable about EU legislation simply because it was not made by the UK elected Government (despite us having a contributing number of MEPs) even when that legislation is beneficial to the UK - who is making teh law being more important than what the law says - something that to me is perversly the wrong way round as ultimately, I dont believe it matters who makes a law/Act etc, just how it impacts on the people - which is why I will be positive and negative towards all parties depending on the impact of their legislation, not on which party drives the Bill - In this and many other countries, despite a general apathy towards politics, most simply state they are a supporter of one side or teh other let their opinions be formed by their 'party' rather than ensuring their opinions drive their party to evolve.

[pap]

All blocs, alliances etc have a finite life, eventually they become corrupt/defunct and the people dictate what happens. The only people that can't see we are coming out of the EU are the politicians and vested interests. It is just a matter of time.

 

The original motives behind closer European co-operation was to prevent another world war, plus all that bulwark against communism stuff back in the Cold War. Apart from the odd civil war, notably after Yugoslavia was broken up, the continent has been at peace for almost 70 years.

 

Massive respect to those who helped rebuild Europe after the end of hostilities, but it speaks to your point about organisations having a finite life. Would Europe sleepwalk back into war without the EU? Doubt it.

 

Historically, the EU has done great work, but I feel its time is coming to an end. The Common Market has a lot of advantages, and the very existence of a trading bloc would have smoothed relations in a pre-Internet time.

 

For those who defend the EU, indulge me with an answer to this question. Where next? Hard core believers in the project would have political union. The eurozone countries are already well on the road to this, what with fiscal compacts, etc

 

As a Dad with a couple of girls, I have enough trouble reconciling the needs of my nearest and dearest. The PM is never going to please all the people all the time, so I do wonder how the integrationists plan to make a functioning "country" out of so many different elements.

[Wes Tender]

In your opinion. Yet the economists in major EU nations (and please let me know if your level of knowledge in Economics exceeds that of the experts at governmental level) believe it was and is - with many nations agreeing. Yes there will obviously be pros and cons - nothing like this is ever going to be straight forward' date=' and therefore there are also plenty of experts who may agree with you, but to suggest its a simple black and white issue is somewhat arrogant and a major part of the problem with this debate.[/quote']

 

And of course, Lord Duckhunter is entirely entitled to his opinion, although it obviously differs to yours. Regarding the expertise of the Economic gurus at Government level, there are always differences of opinion between them as to which is the right way to proceed. Our current economic crisis has been caused by the Finance industry, so that goes to show how expert they are. Supposedly expert investment advisors often cannot agree amongst themselves sometimes whether there is a bear market or a bull market. Also at EU level, the economic experts in those major nations are surely likely to press for measures that benefit their own nations rather than the interests of the wider EU. That is only human nature and just because somebody is an Economist in the EU, it doesn't make them immune to nationalistic aspirations, any more than the politicians. Anybody who thinks that MEPs are elected to further the interests of the EU ahead of those of their own country is very naive.

 

As a basic precept, the bigger the variety of countries joining the Euro, the more likely it became that it would not and could not work. Although you claim that is too black and white, nevertheless it has been proven to be a fact because of its failure. Because the economic levers that could have prevented some economies stagnating, or overheating have been taken away from the Chancellors of those countries, it has effectively meant that the EU now comprises a stronger economic Northern block being pulled down by a weaker Southern Latin block together combined with the weak economies of the old Eastern block.

 

As for what is arrogant, that would be the attitude of the politicians that they know better than their own electorate what is good for us and what we should want if only we were as intelligent as they are.

[Dangermouth]

@ Frank # 83. That is a problem we always face and always will until we have decent electoral reform: i.e. prove you deserve a vote, not that you can repeat the (incorrect) arguments trawled out by your great-grandfather as to why you should only vote Labour. Particularly as they are not the party he voted for as they don't believe in nationalisation, etc. I think the people of these islands think markedly differently to most in continental Europe, at all levels from 'intellectual' to 'peon', and this is borne by experience as well as other methods e.g. reading/discussing with other 'Europeans'. To a large extent we have become quite Americanised, but not inhered their societal checks and balances hence a large number of problems having arisen over the last few years. I am yet to be convinced that we will retain sufficient 'power' or influence to get what we want or what we consider is in our interests which is how we view things here politically i.e. first past the post vs. innumerable coalitions that often exist abroad where consensus-building and proper compromise are more readily accepted. The problem with this, as I see it, is that while many laws that emanate from Brussels work fine in other countries, as is the case with all laws, they do so because they are mostly invisible and in some way seen as acceptable and thus taken that way. That doesn't mean there is disagreement, of course, but that the laws work differently abroad than they do here. That is because of the culture and elements within it e.g. 'compensation culture' that are more pronounced here than elsewhere. I do not think that were law-making given fully back to Parliament, however, that that would be a good thing: self-interest and that of one's chums (either left or right) would dictate policy.

 

@ Pap 84. I think the problem with the PIGS highlights the weakness of the EU as an integrated bloc. And don't forget, while it might be trite, there are 'local' rivalries e.g. the Italians disliking their neighbours the Germans, the Dutch disliking the Germans, etc that are likely to remain within countries' populaces' consciousness for many hundreds of years and are likely to mean that policy-making will either veer to and from a central purpose depending on the make-up of the constituents at the time or will be dictated by those at the centre of the bloc, almost will-he nill-he and that won't be England/the UK; if people haven't got it: we're not the EU's long-lost favourite son and never will be. The point you make regarding remoteness of decision-making is one that everyone should be concerned with, whether pro- or anti- because that is the crux of the matter. Look at how the US is governed for a comparitor and then add in a multitude of different systems and cultures and languages with historic prejudices underpinning them. It's something that hasn't and hadn't happened in hundreds of years and yet some people seem to think it can be done in decades.

 

As to the value of 'experts' and in particular economists. Keynes or Friedman or who: the latest faddist who quotes others and has nothing new to say? Someone who believes more in modelling and repeating what is likely to happen e.g. a market analyst or someone who proposes a completely new economic structure to the world economy? Or just someone at the IMF who's a shoo-in for whoever has the most clout at the time? They might have influence, but if they had all the answers surely we'd have no mess?

 

As to opinions, almost all as Frank/Wes said are likely to be swayed by a failure (if it is possible to not fail in this regard) to consider all the facts and act in a wholly unbiased manner. I concur that those in politics tend not to be the sharpest, though occasionally there are a few but fewer on the Left as of late, and that they are somewhat full of themselves to put it politely. It also strikes me as odd that a country gives another e.g. £20 only for the other country to give it back £5. Why not just give £15 and be done?

 

God, that was long.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

It is my opinion that the principle of the single currency and indeed a closely allied (politcally) europe is a good one (note this is not a fact). Setting aside the global economic problems the Euro zone is to a large extent is suffering from the moving of the convergence criteria to allow those countries who are now causing the problems to join. If the original criteria had been enforced then Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal would not have been admitted. The evolution of the EU should not come as surprise to anyone, it’s how the world moves on, not by dreaming of a golden age of British Empire (Commonwealth), school boys in short trousers and caps, secure borders with no Johnny foreigners trespassing on our green and pleasant land.

I have had many conversations with people who are anti euro yet who in the next breadth poor scorn on the idea of an independent Scotland. Personally I would like the ancient kingdom of Wessex to be re-established with its own Arthurian King and Camelot as the capital. Opps this is the 21st century the world has changed and will change a lot more going backwards is no way to keep up.

 

We have seen why the principle of a single currency is not a good idea; it is fundementally flawed. I am amazed that people can still think that the single currency is a good thing after all they have seen in the last four years.

[Lord Duckhunter]

We have seen why the principle of a single currency is not a good idea; it is fundementally flawed. I am amazed that people can still think that the single currency is a good thing after all they have seen in the last four years.

 

It was a win-win for the European elite, who really want a superstate.

 

If it works, then great, the project is on track.

 

But if it fails, the reason for failure will be there was no economic union and the remedy for the failure will be closer economic and monetary union, ie another step closer to their dream of a full United States of Europe by the backdoor.

[Orange]

I don't think you realise parliament makes our decisions has our elected representives by us.if you don't like anything to do with Europe you can always vote ukip. I don't understand people who vote for one party all there life and if Europe matters so much to you ukip is the only party who wants to push us to the margins of a isolated nation.I don't understand why the loons of the Tory right don't defect to ukip if Europe is hated by them so much maybe they like their perks.so much for principles.

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

 

It's not democratic is it though, 27 un elected commissioners having a huge impact on people's lives. And even worse the people in it are of that career politician elite like baroness Ashton. The left are always so willing to slur the likes of Farage as loons, despite the fact he's pretty much predicted everything and has provided valuable scrutiny. Yet they would never say anything like that about the former communist Barroso and Van Rompuy who claim the Euro has bought great stability.

[solentstars]

It's not democratic is it though, 27 un elected commissioners having a huge impact on people's lives. And even worse the people in it are of that career politician elite like baroness Ashton. The left are always so willing to slur the likes of Farage as loons, despite the fact he's pretty much predicted everything and has provided valuable scrutiny. Yet they would never say anything like that about the former communist Barroso and Van Rompuy who claim the Euro has bought great stability.

 

I more interested in what effect would it have on our businesses being outside.2.will company relocate their businesses to Europe like Honda etc.3.who would invest in the UK.4.would we be like Norway etc who still pay to trade in the EU despite not being a member and follows it rules but has no say in its rules.5.will the usa .China and all the big trading blocks take any notice of us alone or have more influence with being in the EU instead . we have had 30 odd years of anti EU propaganda. I would rather deal with the real world and think there are a lot of questions need to answered and the public need better information .its not has simple has just leaving.

 

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[um pahars]

What i actually said was that lefties are all over the place over Europe, not that lefties alone support it, I'm fully aware or grocer heaths role in taking us into this ridiculous vanity project. My point was that foregin police force can arrest a British citizan on UK soil over a crime that is not a crime in the UK. Lefties are jumping up and down over that sort of thing, until it involves "the project".

 

Like it or not far from from"being isolated" the people calling for withdrawal are on the up. Ukip above labour and lib/dems in last euro elections, opinion polls showing that as majority view. It's your side of the arguement that won't put it to the people not mine.

 

I would venture that the right are actually more "all over the place" than the left.

 

Rightly or wrongly, the left is largely pro EU (with some notable exceptions), whilst it is the right who are split. The EU argument split the Tories under Major, and it looks like Cameron is having the same problems!!!!