Britain leaving the EU not in US interests

[pap]

In news that'll put several cats amongst the pigeons, the Obama administration has publicly gone on record to say that it wants Britain to remain in the EU, that a referendum will see us turning inward and that an exit is not in US interests.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20961651

 

Bit cheeky for them to be throwing their weight around on something that is essentially a matter of self-determination, imo.

 

What do you think?

[LGTL]

I think it's not really any of their business, but they'll be listened to.

[Thedelldays]

Of course they want us in. We would be their biggest voice in the whole mess

[hypochondriac]

Exactly. It's sort of stating the obvious. Of course it is in their interest for us to give the us a voice

[pap]

They don't even want us to have a referendum.

[Wade Garrett]

I reckon the bloke who said this will get a bollocking from Obama.

[pap]

I reckon the bloke who said this will get a bollocking from Obama.

 

Well, hopefully. I love my American pals and all that, but they're the last people to be telling us how to run a functioning country.

 

If they're serious about the EU's principles, perhaps they would like to join the Single Market.

[Saint in Paradise]

Look for years now and under so called different Govts the UK has always done what the US tells them to do.

Can't see that stopping now and I strongly suspect either a referendum won't be held for some reason or other

and if it is the "result" will be a narrow victory to stay in. Remember Dr Kelly if you think the UK establishment

will really let the UK plebs decide against what the establishment want.

[John Boy Saint]

Bloody cheek, it's about time we dug our heels in with them buggers, 2nd World War they sent us an invoice for, nicked our Rocket knowledge to put men into space, wanted us to just hand over the Falklands until Maggie Thatcher ( yup her the un-educated in the South of England hate cos its "cool") put them straight. They Have a one way extradition order.

To them we are a theme park, that obeys when they say heel.

..................... And some silly fools here get all excited on the 4th July, American Independance Day: er who were they getting Independance from?

[Lord Duckhunter]

It doesn't make a blind bit of difference whether the USA wants us to have a referendum or not, we are never going to get one. The great and the good have lied to us over and over again over Europe, they are certainly not gonna let the great unwashed sabotage their "project".

[Saintandy666]

I've said this before and I'll say it again. In a globalised world you can't isolate yourself in the way we are planning to do. The EU is a massive bloc, both in finance and power. When the EU says or does something, it is noted. We have the opportunity if we want to be at that EU table driving the decisions the EU makes. If we want to be able to compete with China and the US in the future, it will have to be through the EU. The UK isn't a super power anymore.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/25/britain-europe-european-union - here is an interesting and well written article on those who assume the out vote would romp to victory.

[Thedelldays]

andy, do you actually have an opinion or do you do what the guardian tells you?

[alpine_saint]

In news that'll put several cats amongst the pigeons, the Obama administration has publicly gone on record to say that it wants Britain to remain in the EU, that a referendum will see us turning inward and that an exit is not in US interests.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20961651

 

Bit cheeky for them to be throwing their weight around on something that is essentially a matter of self-determination, imo.

 

What do you think?

 

Its hillarious on so many counts that I am having trouble composing a sensible flow to this post.

 

Which of the 2 countries, the UK and the US, has the history of turning inwards on itself ? Lemme give you a clue, its the one with the ghey arrangement of stars and stripes in its flag.

 

The UK is in the EU for UK interests. The people and the government of the UK are the ones who decide if we should stay or go depending on how the membership continues to serve the UK interests. The UK is not there to serve US interest or act as the US henchmen to the EU. Damn I get p*ssed off with how the US thinks the universe revolves around it and only shows an interestin the UK when it needs something.

 

Its really time the UK tells the US where to get off. We are partners or they can f**k off to their new buddies in Asia. I am still bloody annoyed at finding out Alexander Haig nearly tipped Argentina off about the move to recapture Sough Georgia in 1982, that Reagan asked Thatcher to stop the Falklands recapture before the Argies surrendered, and that the Obama adminstration refer to the Falklands as the Malvinas.

[alpine_saint]

Bloody cheek, it's about time we dug our heels in with them buggers, 2nd World War they sent us an invoice for, nicked our Rocket knowledge to put men into space, wanted us to just hand over the Falklands until Maggie Thatcher ( yup her the un-educated in the South of England hate cos its "cool") put them straight. They Have a one way extradition order.

To them we are a theme park, that obeys when they say heel.

..................... And some silly fools here get all excited on the 4th July, American Independance Day: er who were they getting Independance from?

 

You forgot the fact that we were miles ahead of the Manhattan Project with Tube Alloys, that the US coaxed our know-how out of us on the agreement that all weaponisation know-how would be shared, then they prevented UK scientists from seeing the Hiroshima detonation, and Truaman signed the MacMahon Act cutting us off from all that they agreed to provide us with.

[alpine_saint]

I've said this before and I'll say it again. In a globalised world you can't isolate yourself in the way we are planning to do. The EU is a massive bloc, both in finance and power. When the EU says or does something, it is noted. We have the opportunity if we want to be at that EU table driving the decisions the EU makes. If we want to be able to compete with China and the US in the future, it will have to be through the EU. The UK isn't a super power anymore.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/25/britain-europe-european-union - here is an interesting and well written article on those who assume the out vote would romp to victory.

 

You may be right, but the UK is a democracy, and if the issue becomes a big enough vote-winner, there will be a referendum, and if the referendum votes to leave, thats it. Its something you "we know best" Guardianistas seem to have a little trouble remembering.

[CB Saint]

I've said this before and I'll say it again. In a globalised world you can't isolate yourself in the way we are planning to do. The EU is a massive bloc, both in finance and power. When the EU says or does something, it is noted. We have the opportunity if we want to be at that EU table driving the decisions the EU makes. If we want to be able to compete with China and the US in the future, it will have to be through the EU. The UK isn't a super power anymore.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/25/britain-europe-european-union - here is an interesting and well written article on those who assume the out vote would romp to victory.

 

In that case we should create an economic and pseudo- political alliance with the Brics considering that is where all the money / future growth is and leave the EU to implode. Wouldn't it be better to be a small fish in a very big prosperous pond than a big (but largely ignored) fish in a small disfunctional swamp.

 

As for the US - if they are so keen to use us as their mouth piece in the EU, how about ponying up some of the £8bn we have to toss in every year.

[Barry Sanchez]

In news that'll put several cats amongst the pigeons, the Obama administration has publicly gone on record to say that it wants Britain to remain in the EU, that a referendum will see us turning inward and that an exit is not in US interests.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20961651

 

Bit cheeky for them to be throwing their weight around on something that is essentially a matter of self-determination, imo.

 

What do you think?

 

Realpolitik, surely you understand this Pap, a learned political person like yourself.

[SuperMikey]

In that case we should create an economic and pseudo- political alliance with the Brics considering that is where all the money / future growth is and leave the EU to implode. Wouldn't it be better to be a small fish in a very big prosperous pond than a big (but largely ignored) fish in a small disfunctional swamp.

 

As for the US - if they are so keen to use us as their mouth piece in the EU, how about ponying up some of the £8bn we have to toss in every year.

 

That £8bn ensures we're sitting up at the big boy's table, not píssing about on the floor playing with Lego like most Express readers want us to do.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

andy, do you actually have an opinion or do you do what the guardian tells you?

 

As opposed to thinking what the Mail and Sun tell us to think? Just a thought.

[OldNick]

in the next 15 years there will be more Spanish speaking Americans than English. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that in the next 25years there will be a Spanish speaking president. Will he have the affection of the motherland or will his thoughts be to the South Americans first.

Its a changing world and whilst i hate the EU and how they meddle in our life surely it is better to be with a bigger block. There again you have countries like Norway who survive well without being in the EU

[solentstars]

In news that'll put several cats amongst the pigeons, the Obama administration has publicly gone on record to say that it wants Britain to remain in the EU, that a referendum will see us turning inward and that an exit is not in US interests.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20961651

 

Bit cheeky for them to be throwing their weight around on something that is essentially a matter of self-determination, imo.

 

What do you think?

no suprise to me .its commen sense if your looking after your nations interests ,i don,t see the point of being a little country on its own with no influence on trade with rhe us ,chinia and india and has i think we would not get deals which suit us.i beleve the norway foreign minster who are not members could not understand why the uk wants out has norway has still has to abide by eu rules to trade but has no say in the decision which hurts some of their national interests.

i think we need to start looking outwards rather than living in the dream world of all our yesterdays and can never see any government of labour tory liberal taking us out except the dreamers of ukip and the looney right of thr old tory party and die hard leftists .

[solentstars]

I think it's not really any of their business, but they'll be listened to.

of course it is they want us to have our free market principles along with germany against those who do not like the free market plus they have mutual interests in defence etc,its a warning shot if we left we can kiss goodbye to any influence with the usa has we would be seen has small fry and i expect the same would be our dealings with the big tradeing blocks around the world.

[solentstars]

I've said this before and I'll say it again. In a globalised world you can't isolate yourself in the way we are planning to do. The EU is a massive bloc, both in finance and power. When the EU says or does something, it is noted. We have the opportunity if we want to be at that EU table driving the decisions the EU makes. If we want to be able to compete with China and the US in the future, it will have to be through the EU. The UK isn't a super power anymore.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/25/britain-europe-european-union - here is an interesting and well written article on those who assume the out vote would romp to victory.

i agree andy but some people like ostriches burying their heads in a dream world but anyone in government with responsibility deals with the real world and our national interest rather than emotional clap trap and a make believe world.

[Thedelldays]

of course it is they want us to have our free market principles along with germany against those who do not like the free market plus they have mutual interests in defence etc,its a warning shot if we left we can kiss goodbye to any influence with the usa has we would be seen has small fry and i expect the same would be our dealings with the big tradeing blocks around the world.

wow....talk about one extreme to another...comrade

[St Marco]

no suprise to me .its commen sense if your looking after your nations interests ,i don,t see the point of being a little country on its own .

 

Switzerland seem to do alright?

 

Personally I think the reason people want out of the EU is because they have seen their local communities become affected by it. Have to remember the majority of our nation are old bastards.

It isn't so much to do with trade and stuff like that but more to do with immigration. Right now it appears we have an open door policy where you can come here no matter where your from.

The press doesn't help as they know it is an area that ****es a lot of people off. These are just a few examples http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/4323814/Meet-the-Romanian-gypsies-defiling-Londons-prestigious-Park-Lane.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/9670141/Britain-powerless-to-stop-tens-of-thousands-of-Bulgarians-and-Romanians-moving-to-UK-next-year-Theresa-May-admits.html

 

People read stuff like that and it gives them the belief that the reason these people have flooded into the country is because of the EU.

 

However you look at it you have to think as an Island Nation we cannot continue with our open boarder policy because one day the population will be horrendous here. Right now we have a record 7% growth rate (at last census). With the amount of jobs being created reducing and unemployment rising (especially youth unemployed) I think it does not take a genius to work out that you cannot sustain that growth. It has to stop.

 

So as I say I think for a lot of people it is down to the EU pretty much allowing anyone to move here. We in Southampton have experienced the changes over the past 10 years. Look at the Polish population here now. It isn't a question if you want them here or not it is a question of how many you think should be allowed here. Is 10 enough? is 10 million enough?

 

The culture of the country has changed a lot and in many cases not for the better. The other day a friend was in a car accident with an Arab guy. He didn't speak a word of English even though he was driving a car. Apparently he had lived here for 3 years. Just something so simple as changing details was hard to do. Do you not think maybe it is common sense to at least have some rules in place where people should at least learn the language of the country they are living in?

 

So when these people get to vote I am pretty certain they will be doing so on the basis of immigration rather then trade or economic things.

[solentstars]

Switzerland seem to do alright?

 

Personally I think the reason people want out of the EU is because they have seen their local communities become affected by it. Have to remember the majority of our nation are old bastards.

It isn't so much to do with trade and stuff like that but more to do with immigration. Right now it appears we have an open door policy where you can come here no matter where your from.

The press doesn't help as they know it is an area that ****es a lot of people off. These are just a few examples http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/4323814/Meet-the-Romanian-gypsies-defiling-Londons-prestigious-Park-Lane.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/9670141/Britain-powerless-to-stop-tens-of-thousands-of-Bulgarians-and-Romanians-moving-to-UK-next-year-Theresa-May-admits.html

 

People read stuff like that and it gives them the belief that the reason these people have flooded into the country is because of the EU.

 

However you look at it you have to think as an Island Nation we cannot continue with our open boarder policy because one day the population will be horrendous here. Right now we have a record 7% growth rate (at last census). With the amount of jobs being created reducing and unemployment rising (especially youth unemployed) I think it does not take a genius to work out that you cannot sustain that growth. It has to stop.

 

So as I say I think for a lot of people it is down to the EU pretty much allowing anyone to move here. We in Southampton have experienced the changes over the past 10 years. Look at the Polish population here now. It isn't a question if you want them here or not it is a question of how many you think should be allowed here. Is 10 enough? is 10 million enough?

 

The culture of the country has changed a lot and in many cases not for the better. The other day a friend was in a car accident with an Arab guy. He didn't speak a word of English even though he was driving a car. Apparently he had lived here for 3 years. Just something so simple as changing details was hard to do. Do you not think maybe it is common sense to at least have some rules in place where people should at least learn the language of the country they are living in?

 

So when these people get to vote I am pretty certain they will be doing so on the basis of immigration rather then trade or economic things.

your proberley right but to me its about being in our biggest tradeing block rather than being outside alone and seeing us lose influence and jobs has firms relocate to mainland europe and usa,chinese.indian etc iinvestment going to mainland europe with the loss of more jobs. Edited 10 January, 2013 by solentstars

[Thedelldays]

your proberley right but to me its about being in our biggest tradeing block rather than being outside alone and seeing us lose influence and jobs has firms relocate to mainland europe and usa,chinese.indian etc iinvestment going to mainland europe with the loss of more jobs.

who and where?

[moonraker]

andy, do you actually have an opinion or do you do what the guardian tells you?

As you do what the Tory Graph / Mail tells you. Saintandy's opinions are always considered and thoughtful unlike most that are of the knee jerk variety.

[solentstars]

who and where?

Cameron's plans have raised concerns among British business leaders, who wrote him an open letter on Wednesday warning that a renegotiation of membership risked an exit from Europe, with "damaging" consequences for the economy.

 

Following Gordon's comments, a spokesperson for Cameron's Downing Street office insisted: "The US wants an outward-looking EU with Britain in it, and so do we."

[OldNick]

Heath treated our longtime friends and allies in the Commonwealth disgracefully. those countries are fine now without us,. This was done in the desperate rush to get us into the EU. We have burnt our boats and now have to sit with our European allies. It is galling at times, especially as it is Brussels who have faceless people living the grand life on us whilst dishing out ridiculous laws that effect the normal man in the street.

[Barry Sanchez]

in the next 15 years there will be more Spanish speaking Americans than English. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that in the next 25years there will be a Spanish speaking president. Will he have the affection of the motherland or will his thoughts be to the South Americans first.

Its a changing world and whilst i hate the EU and how they meddle in our life surely it is better to be with a bigger block. There again you have countries like Norway who survive well without being in the EU

 

 

The power behind the US will always be wasp or wasp taught people, Obama has no real power, the last president of the US tried to change and the military had something to say about that, corporations run that Country, defence, tobacco, guns, oil, gas and the car industry have a massive huge say in what happens and what does not.

There is still more money to be made in Europe/Britain than there is in the Latin Countries, Chavez down there will keep it that way as well, I could talk about what Reegan thought of Latin America and invasions there but it would slightly of the point.

The US would like us to be their lapdog at the European top table.

[Barry Sanchez]

Heath treated our longtime friends and allies in the Commonwealth disgracefully. those countries are fine now without us,. This was done in the desperate rush to get us into the EU. We have burnt our boats and now have to sit with our European allies. It is galling at times, especially as it is Brussels who have faceless people living the grand life on us whilst dishing out ridiculous laws that effect the normal man in the street.

 

Many Kiwi's I know still remember the day Britain stitiched them up, that also did more for republicanism in Australia than any visit by the Queen.

[Saintandy666]

You may be right, but the UK is a democracy, and if the issue becomes a big enough vote-winner, there will be a referendum, and if the referendum votes to leave, thats it. Its something you "we know best" Guardianistas seem to have a little trouble remembering.

 

Not at all. If there is a referendum, and we vote to leave... then that is that. But I can still think it is wrong and join a campaign to rejoin immediately afterwards. But I don't think that the result would necessarily end up being an out one, once all the sides have their say. The City has a big vested interest in staying in the EU and the City is both very rich and very powerful, so that's just one aspect that has yet to come into play that will.

 

As for the 'do I just believe what the guardian tells me?'. It's a bit of a silly comment. Most people in this country are moderately right of centre or moderately left or centre and there is a newspaper to reflect both of those views. Of course I am influenced by things I may read in the guardian, just as I can be influenced by something I read in the Mail, though usually in a different way.

[Orange]

Not the US i know, but while the likes of Branson are blowing the EU trumpet, its worth pointing out they said the same thing about us joining the Euro.

[solentstars]

Heath treated our longtime friends and allies in the Commonwealth disgracefully. those countries are fine now without us,. This was done in the desperate rush to get us into the EU. We have burnt our boats and now have to sit with our European allies. It is galling at times, especially as it is Brussels who have faceless people living the grand life on us whilst dishing out ridiculous laws that effect the normal man in the street.

i agree it was shocking how Australia and new zealand were treated at the time .

[Lord Duckhunter]

Most people would want to be in a trading bloc with the rest of Europe, anmd that's what we voted to stay in 40 years ago.

 

However the EU is not just a Trading bloc.

 

Had it remained so there would be no arguement at all.

 

It's the creeping loss of soverignty and the neutering of the British Parliament that makes it such a toxic issue.

 

The very same people telling us we had to join the Euro or face being left behind are now telling us we have to remain in Europe or be left behind. The only people qualified to decide the future of our relationship with Europe are the British people, it is our Parliament being sidelined, our sovereignty, nobody has the right to do that without being given a mandate to do so.

 

Why is it that the people who are convinced they have such a great case for Europe, are unwilling to put that case to the British people?

[Frank's cousin]

They don't even want us to have a referendum.

 

not surprized . a referendum on this will go the same way as the one on changing the voting system - misinformation spread, posturing and praying on fears for it ever to get decent fair hearing - Most flkd simply do not have enough undrstanding of ALL the issues raised by membership v non membership and follow party lines or what is fead to them by their Newspaper... getting an open and honest discussion going on this topic will be impossible and therefore impossible for most (including me) to make a fully informed choice... this is the problem with referenda as a whole.

 

In Scotland you have folk saying why not give independence a go, if it does not work out rejoin.... explains alot

[Window Cleaner]

not surprized . a referendum on this will go the same way as the one on changing the voting system - misinformation spread, posturing and praying on fears for it ever to get decent fair hearing - Most flkd simply do not have enough undrstanding of ALL the issues raised by membership v non membership and follow party lines or what is fead to them by their Newspaper... getting an open and honest discussion going on this topic will be impossible and therefore impossible for most (including me) to make a fully informed choice... this is the problem with referenda as a whole.

 

In Scotland you have folk saying why not give independence a go, if it does not work out rejoin.... explains alot

 

The populace should not be entrusted with major decisions, as you say most of them do not have the intellectual capacity.

 

Now if you had a referendum amongst those with at least a B.A or a B.Sc you might get a reasonable response.

 

New York syndrome should always be remembered whgen any political decision is in the offing.

[Saintandy666]

Most people would want to be in a trading bloc with the rest of Europe, anmd that's what we voted to stay in 40 years ago.

 

However the EU is not just a Trading bloc.

 

Had it remained so there would be no arguement at all.

 

It's the creeping loss of soverignty and the neutering of the British Parliament that makes it such a toxic issue.

 

The very same people telling us we had to join the Euro or face being left behind are now telling us we have to remain in Europe or be left behind. The only people qualified to decide the future of our relationship with Europe are the British people, it is our Parliament being sidelined, our sovereignty, nobody has the right to do that without being given a mandate to do so.

 

Why is it that the people who are convinced they have such a great case for Europe, are unwilling to put that case to the British people?

 

Tbh, I don't think either of us know exactly what the great British public want at the moment. I don't really think most people have thought about it in the same way they would were the arguments out in the open from both sides. And polls and what not are not the same as a referendum. I remember a time when AV was quite a substantial amount ahead in opinion polls.

[Barry Sanchez]

Most people would want to be in a trading bloc with the rest of Europe, anmd that's what we voted to stay in 40 years ago.

 

However the EU is not just a Trading bloc.

 

Had it remained so there would be no arguement at all.

 

It's the creeping loss of soverignty and the neutering of the British Parliament that makes it such a toxic issue.

 

The very same people telling us we had to join the Euro or face being left behind are now telling us we have to remain in Europe or be left behind. The only people qualified to decide the future of our relationship with Europe are the British people, it is our Parliament being sidelined, our sovereignty, nobody has the right to do that without being given a mandate to do so.

 

Why is it that the people who are convinced they have such a great case for Europe, are unwilling to put that case to the British people?

 

Because they are unwilling to discuss, similar to the voting system in this Country.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Tbh, I don't think either of us know exactly what the great British public want at the moment. I don't really think most people have thought about it in the same way they would were the arguments out in the open from both sides. And polls and what not are not the same as a referendum. I remember a time when AV was quite a substantial amount ahead in opinion polls.

 

We are being denied a vote because the great and the good are worried by what the result could be.

 

If they thought it would be a walk over like the AV vote,they'd be opening the polling stations tomorrow.

[buctootim]

We are being denied a vote because the great and the good are worried by what the result could be.

 

If they thought it would be a walk over like the AV vote,they'd be opening the polling stations tomorrow.

 

There is a very good and objective anlaysis of the current situation here (if you can get over the fact its in the Guardian)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/27/eu-britain-european-destiny

[Wes Tender]

Most people would want to be in a trading bloc with the rest of Europe, anmd that's what we voted to stay in 40 years ago.

 

However the EU is not just a Trading bloc.

 

Had it remained so there would be no arguement at all.

 

It's the creeping loss of soverignty and the neutering of the British Parliament that makes it such a toxic issue.

 

The very same people telling us we had to join the Euro or face being left behind are now telling us we have to remain in Europe or be left behind. The only people qualified to decide the future of our relationship with Europe are the British people, it is our Parliament being sidelined, our sovereignty, nobody has the right to do that without being given a mandate to do so.

 

Why is it that the people who are convinced they have such a great case for Europe, are unwilling to put that case to the British people?

 

I'm in total agreement with you on this. It was entirely justifiable that we were given the opportunity to vote on whether we wished to join the Common Market and as you say, there was little reason for concern following that, apart form the iniquitous subsidies that were paid to peasant farmers in France and Italy to produce butter mountains, wine lakes and the way that our apple orchards were put out of business by subsidies to the french and our fishing fleets were decimated by the Spanish, etc. It was purely a trading agreement, without further political implications and with no loss of sovereignty for our Parliament and interference in our legal processes.

 

But the significant changes brought about by the Treaties of Maastrict, Amsterdam, Nice and Lisbon have totally changed what was voted for in the original Treaty of Rome and yet although other member states have been allowed to vote on them in Referenda, we haven't.

 

It is a disgrace.

 

The usual arguments are trotted out in a vain effort to pursuade us that it would be a disaster if we were to leave. We would find that we would be unable to sell British goods to Europe for some reason, although they will expect to continue to sell us their Volkwagens, BMWs, Renaults, Zanussi fridges and washing machines., their French cheeses and wines, their Belgian chocolates, Parma or Serano Hams, etc.

 

They predicted that we would be isolated by not joining the Euro and thank God we didn't, as that has been a disaster. And yet although we are not part of it, they still come to us begging for us to fund the ailing economies of the Greeks, the Spanish and the Italians who are suffering because a policy of uniting such disparate economies under the umbrella of a single currency was sheer lunacy.

 

I voted for entry in into the Common Market under Heath, but I certainly didn't vote for anything that has followed. I vote Conservative at Parliamentary elections and have voted UKIP at European elections. The political system is such that a party has a manifesto on a basket of policies, some of which a voter supports and others that he doesn't. Yet the party elected to govern can then claim that it has a mandate to pursue all of those policies in its manifesto, or to ignore some of them if they feel that it is expedient to do so. This is not what I call proper democracy.

 

We had a referendum on electoral reform, but are not allowed one when we lose sovereignty to Europe, so that they are allowed to pass laws that affect our everyday lives and the people who pass those laws are not elected by us. It's long overdue to call time on the whole affair and get out and take our net contribution into their coffers with us, to reinvest in building up British industry. We can then retake control over our borders and immigration policy, our territorial waters, our legal processes and the sovereignty that we lost.

[solentstars]

There is a very good and objective anlaysis of the current situation here (if you can get over the fact its in the Guardian)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/27/eu-britain-european-destiny

The Eurosceptics want a new relationship. Something like Norway. Fine. You pay, but no say." thats the bit that made me laugh its like leaving the premier league and being relegated to the conference and living on memorys of the good old days while the world moves on.

[Wes Tender]

The populace should not be entrusted with major decisions, as you say most of them do not have the intellectual capacity.

 

Now if you had a referendum amongst those with at least a B.A or a B.Sc you might get a reasonable response.

 

New York syndrome should always be remembered whgen any political decision is in the offing.

 

This is the sort of extreme arrogance that has caused the electorate to grow to detest their elected politicians.

[Thedelldays]

As you do what the Tory Graph / Mail tells you. Saintandy's opinions are always considered and thoughtful unlike most that are of the knee jerk variety.

when do i EVER quote anything from those papers..?

[Barry Sanchez]

All I want to know as a net contributor to the European Union what do we actually get out of it that recipients of our money dont?

[Frank's cousin]

In a an ideal world it WOULD go before the people. But how many of you if you are TOTALLY honest believe you would a) listen to the arguments for an against with an open mind, b) have the willingness to research, absorb and understand the intricacies of ALL EU policy to ensure you place everythijng oin the pro or con camp appropriately, c) the will power to fully put aside any inate bias based on existing political rhetoric/party line and the ridiculous yet very influencial element of the principle of sovereignty to hand on heart make an informed and educated choice on the matter? the ego driven sense of nationalism is often too ingrained for many to give it a fair hearing anyway. - Always been why the Tories have been and always will be so divided on Europe - with the old guard nationalists opposed to anything foreign bugger interfering, versus the capitalists recognizing the economic benefits to tehir self serving industry (and they know that teh current economic climate may make it look unattractive, but they also know they made a killing when all was rosey 7 or 8 years ago...)

 

That is the problem. There are pros and cons -with the pros only increasing the more influence a nation has within the EU eg Germany. Our influence is currently far lower than the threshold for what most folk would consider necessary for there to be a benefit - mostly because we have spent most of our membership time on the outside pis sing in...

[Saintandy666]

when do i EVER quote anything from those papers..?

 

I think he was making the point that it is a very weak argument to just say that someone just copies their views from a newspaper just because A. they happen to quote a news story from that newspaper and B. because their opinion seems to have some crossover with something said in that newspaper.

[Thedelldays]

I think he was making the point that it is a very weak argument to just say that someone just copies their views from a newspaper just because A. they happen to quote a news story from that newspaper and B. because their opinion seems to have some crossover with something said in that newspaper.

but you and BTF rarely fail to make a political point without backing it up with a guardian link.....just saying