VAT rate down to 15%

[bridge too far]

The vast majority, I am sure.

 

BTF, you don't honestly believe that the public sector are going to bear the brunt of job losses in this recession, do you?

 

No, I don't. Because there will always be a need for public services, and even more so when people are losing their jobs and houses.

 

But there will be significant job losses in the sector for sure.

 

Steve - your figures were for 3 months = c.45K a month. Not hundreds of thousands in a month as was claimed.

[OldNick]

But significantly lower wages.

 

No huge mega-millions golden handshakes in the public sector.

 

I've just been looking through the Health Service Journal and a 'Modern Matron' - in charge of nursing in an acute hospital can earn as little as £30K.

 

A Modern Matron will have many skills (apart from nursing) that can transfer into the private sector where he / she would earn substantially more than that paltry sum.

She should dowhat a lot do, leave and join an agency and then get more an hour from the NHS and the agency gets a fee as well.

[Weston Super Saint]

No, I don't. Because there will always be a need for public services, and even more so when people are losing their jobs and houses.

 

But there will be significant job losses in the sector for sure.

 

Steve - your figures were for 3 months = c.45K a month. Not hundreds of thousands in a month as was claimed.

 

Didn't he quantify that by stating they were for the 3 months up to September, whilst things have gotten a lot worse since September?

[Johnny Bognor]

But significantly lower wages.

 

No huge mega-millions golden handshakes in the public sector.

 

I've just been looking through the Health Service Journal and a 'Modern Matron' - in charge of nursing in an acute hospital can earn as little as £30K.

 

A Modern Matron will have many skills (apart from nursing) that can transfer into the private sector where he / she would earn substantially more than that paltry sum.

 

BTF, you need to read this:

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285

 

 

Here are the highlights:

 

The full-time occupations with the highest earnings in 2008 were ‘Health professionals', (median pay of full-time employees of £977 a week), followed by ‘Corporate managers’ (£727) and ‘Science and technology professionals’ (£691). The lowest paid of all full-time employees were those in ‘Sales occupations’, at £272 a week.

 

The percentage difference between the median level of full-time earnings in the public sector (£523 per week in April 2008) and the private sector (£460 per week) narrowed over the year to April 2008, following annual increases of 4.3 per cent and 4.6 per cent respectively.

 

 

So they get more money, better job security and better pensions. Are there any other perks they get that we are not aware of?

[Weston Super Saint]

So they get more money, better job security and better pensions. Are there any other perks they get that we are not aware of?

 

Free stationery

[Johnny Bognor]

Free stationery

 

More sick days..........

http://www.hse.gov.uk/gse/sickness.pdf

[Johnny Bognor]

Free stationery

 

More holiday.....

http://www.onrec.com/newsstories/6601.asp

 

 

 

So let's recap:

1. Better Pay

2. More Job Security

3. Better Pensions

4. More sickies

5. More Holiday

6. Free Stationary

 

.....and they still moan.

 

BTF seems to think that everyone on the private sector is earning millions when in fact, those that are fall into the 0.000001% category.

 

The Chief Exec of Network Rail (Public Sector) earned £1.24m last year.

 

It pays to be public sector!

[Guest Hacienda]

More holiday.....

http://www.onrec.com/newsstories/6601.asp

 

 

 

So let's recap:

1. Better Pay

2. More Job Security

3. Better Pensions

4. More sickies

5. More Holiday

6. Free Stationary

 

.....and they still moan.

 

BTF seems to think that everyone on the private sector is earning millions when in fact, those that are fall into the 0.000001% category.

 

The Chief Exec of Network Rail (Public Sector) earned £1.24m last year.

 

It pays to be public sector!

 

Not as much as you.

[Guest Hacienda]

Was it ever implimented? I thought it never got through and so they put up the vat 2.5% instead. It was still a fair tax, or as it may cost you more you dont want it.

 

Better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

[Mao Cap]

More holiday.....

http://www.onrec.com/newsstories/6601.asp

 

 

 

So let's recap:

1. Better Pay

2. More Job Security

3. Better Pensions

4. More sickies

5. More Holiday

6. Free Stationary

 

.....and they still moan.

 

BTF seems to think that everyone on the private sector is earning millions when in fact, those that are fall into the 0.000001% category.

 

The Chief Exec of Network Rail (Public Sector) earned £1.24m last year.

 

It pays to be public sector!

 

Why not try applying for the civil service?

[Weston Super Saint]

Why not try applying for the civil service?

 

Because the worst thing they get more of is BOREDOM!

 

Oh, and have you seen some of the retards that work in the civil service? Can you imagine one of them being your boss :shock:

[Johnny Bognor]

Not as much as you.

 

 

Granted, but then those of us in the private sector get

 

1. Worse Pay

2. Less Job Security

3. Worse Pensions

4. Less sickies

5. Less Holiday

6. No Free Stationary

 

So we've got good reason to - and that is the crux of the matter. We have reason to, those in the Public sector don't.

[bridge too far]

BTF, you need to read this:

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285

 

 

Here are the highlights:

 

The full-time occupations with the highest earnings in 2008 were ‘Health professionals', (median pay of full-time employees of £977 a week), followed by ‘Corporate managers’ (£727) and ‘Science and technology professionals’ (£691). The lowest paid of all full-time employees were those in ‘Sales occupations’, at £272 a week.

 

 

 

Health professionals are, of course, consultant surgeons and physicians and General Practitioners. Not 'pen pushers'. However, many consultants (medical) are also clinical managers and, mistakenly, classified as pen pushers whereas what they actually do is to 'manage' as well as practise medicine.

[Weston Super Saint]

Health professionals are, of course, consultant surgeons and physicians and General Practitioners. Not 'pen pushers'. However, many consultants (medical) are also clinical managers and, mistakenly, classified as pen pushers whereas what they actually do is to 'manage' as well as practise medicine.

 

But are they public or private sector?

[Guest Hacienda]

So we've got good reason to - and that is the crux of the matter. We have reason to, those in the Public sector don't.

 

That, of course, is total ******s.

[Guest Hacienda]

It makes me smile that people are happy to moan about the "perks" of the public sector as if it's some sort of closed shop that they can't get into.

 

If it's that good then apply as you've all obviously envious of the salary and perks.

[Johnny Bognor]

That, of course, is total ******s.

 

Are you disagreeing with the governements own statistics?????

 

It is clear that Public Sector have better pay (on average), more job security, more holiday, free stationary (according to Weston), more sickies and better pensions. No one (including BTF) has been able to demonstrate that this is not the case - please feel free to provide evidence to the contrary.

 

It makes me smile that people are happy to moan about the "perks" of the public sector as if it's some sort of closed shop that they can't get into.

 

If it's that good then apply as you've all obviously envious of the salary and perks.

 

If we all worked for the Public Sector, then who would be working to generate the wealth that pays for it all?

[bridge too far]

This is the most recent article I found on Google about local councils' Chief Executives pay. As the article states, these CEs have responsibility for thousands of staff and a budget that runs into millions. Their average salary at the time of publication was £103K.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2002/sep/25/10

 

This article shows the salaries for executives in the FTSE 100 - again it's the most up to date I could find:

 

http://www.hrmguide.co.uk/rewards/fat_cat.htm

 

Both articles are from 2002 so salaries are compared realistically.

 

Southampton City Council employs 9,000 people and, in 2006, had a budget of £100 million.

 

EMI has 5,500 employees. I can't find what EMI's budget is.

 

SCC CE earns £150,000 p.a. EMI Executive earned over £10million in 2002.

 

No doubt someone will come back and say 'ah but EMI makes profits'. However, councils can't make profit. In terms of budgetary and workforce management, the council CE earns a tenth of the private sector CE for greater responsiblity.

[bridge too far]

But are they public or private sector?

 

GPs are 'private' contractors to the NHS. As we know, some clinical consultants, working for the NHS, also undertake private work.

 

So it's a bit disingenuous to classify them as 'public sector employees'.

[bridge too far]

Are you disagreeing with the governements own statistics?????

 

It is clear that Public Sector have better pay (on average), more job security, more holiday, free stationary (according to Weston), more sickies and better pensions. No one (including BTF) has been able to demonstrate that this is not the case - please feel free to provide evidence to the contrary.

 

 

 

If we all worked for the Public Sector, then who would be working to generate the wealth that pays for it all?

 

If we all worked for the private sector who on earth would teach your kids, nurse your old parents, clean your streets, collect your rubbish etc. etc. etc?

[Guest Hacienda]

If we all worked for the Public Sector, then who would be working to generate the wealth that pays for it all?

 

If you are envious of their pay and perks then join them.

 

You won't because you know it's ******s.

[Johnny Bognor]

This is the most recent article I found on Google about local councils' Chief Executives pay. As the article states, these CEs have responsibility for thousands of staff and a budget that runs into millions. Their average salary at the time of publication was £103K.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2002/sep/25/10

 

This article shows the salaries for executives in the FTSE 100 - again it's the most up to date I could find:

 

http://www.hrmguide.co.uk/rewards/fat_cat.htm

 

Both articles are from 2002 so salaries are compared realistically.

 

Southampton City Council employs 9,000 people and, in 2006, had a budget of £100 million.

 

EMI has 5,500 employees. I can't find what EMI's budget is.

 

SCC CE earns £150,000 p.a. EMI Executive earned over £10million in 2002.

 

No doubt someone will come back and say 'ah but EMI makes profits'. However, councils can't make profit. In terms of budgetary and workforce management, the council CE earns a tenth of the private sector CE for greater responsiblity.

 

You are comparing apples to oranges.

 

It's not so much EMI makes profits, it has to operate in a competitive cut throat environment and therefore the challenge is to make profits. The EMI chief has to come up with a strategy to grow and fend off competition - the jobs under his control are directly linked to the success of the company. He has to earn his crust.

 

The CEO of SCC gets given money to spend and doesn't have to worry about where it is coming from, just not spend more than he is given.

 

It's a bit like comparing someone who has to go out and earn a living with a child who gets given pocket money to spend.

 

 

Those in the public sector moan about the pay of the FTSE 100 companies. This involves a few hundred people out of a 20 million strong private sector work force.

 

They are under the illusion that we are all on the gravy train when this is simply not the case. The FACTS are that average public sector pay is higher than the average private sector pay.

 

No-one seems to be able to demonstrate that this is not the case.

[bridge too far]

It is also slightly disingenous to compare 'average' public and private sector pay.

 

In the public sector, most employees have to have a reasonable standard of education and this will be reflected in their salaries. In the private sector, average wages will be deflated by the very low pay of the less well educated (I'm thinking McDonalds, building trades labourers, some unskilled shop workers, etc.)

 

Here's an example of pay comparison:

 

A local government architect, working on schools projects would earn somewhere between £32-40K. A private practice architect working on schools projects would earn over £45K.

 

An NHS project manager, working on a £100m hospital development, would earn around £45K. A construction project manager working on a £100m development would earn roughly £60K plus car plus health insurance.

[Johnny Bognor]

If you are envious of their pay and perks then join them.

 

You won't because you know it's ******s.

 

It's not ******** as you haven't been able to show me that I am wrong - no-one has. The facts I have stated are undisputed - I am using leftie government statistics to support my case as well.

 

But, you are right to ask "if it is so good, why not work in the public sector?" and this leads me on to the one advantage that the private sector has an over the public sector - opportunity - and this is why I choose to work in the private sector.

 

There is more opportunity if you are good at what you do - the downside risk is that you are on average more likely to be worse off, but as Dell Boy used to say "He who dares......."

[Johnny Bognor]

 

Here's an example of pay comparison:

 

A local government architect, working on schools projects would earn somewhere between £32-40K. A private practice architect .......has probably just been made redundant with the state of the construction industry.

 

An NHS project manager, working on a £100m hospital development, would earn around £45K. A construction project manager ....has probably just been made redundant with the state of the construction industry.

 

 

This is more likely to be the reality right now

[bridge too far]

This is more likely to be the reality right now

 

And that's where you are so very wrong. The public sector capital programme is flourishing and will continue to be so, given that the government has brought forward future programmes. I have been in the Midlands early this week looking at a number of Building Schools for the Future projects underway in one council.

 

I am comparing salaries of those professions engaged in public sector contracts.

 

So sorry to prove you wrong yet again.

[Weston Super Saint]

And that's where you are so very wrong. The public sector capital programme is flourishing and will continue to be so, given that the government has brought forward future programmes. I have been in the Midlands early this week looking at a number of Building Schools for the Future projects underway in one council.

 

I am comparing salaries of those professions engaged in public sector contracts.

 

So sorry to prove you wrong yet again.

 

Excellent news.

 

So while the private sector believes that building new homes at the moment is not cost effective or beneficial, the public sector is happy to squander more money, safe in the knowledge it can just increase council tax again next year when it overspends.

[Johnny Bognor]

And that's where you are so very wrong. The public sector capital programme is flourishing and will continue to be so, given that the government has brought forward future programmes. I have been in the Midlands early this week looking at a number of Building Schools for the Future projects underway in one council.

 

I am comparing salaries of those professions engaged in public sector contracts.

 

So sorry to prove you wrong yet again.

 

Yet again?

 

You have yet to prove that:

1) Public Sector Pay is worse

2) Public Sector Holidays are less

3) Public Sector Pensions are worse

4) Public Sector Job Security is worse

 

 

I took your example to be Architects working in the public sector vs architects working in the private sector - as we are debating the merits of the Public sector.

 

You didn't say that the Architect in the private sector was specifically working on an NHS project. If you did, then I would be talking about all of the Architects that are losing their jobs working in the House building industry.

[bridge too far]

Yet again?

 

You have yet to prove that:

1) Public Sector Pay is worse

2) Public Sector Holidays are less

3) Public Sector Pensions are worse

4) Public Sector Job Security is worse

 

 

I took your example to be Architects working in the public sector vs architects working in the private sector - as we are debating the merits of the Public sector.

 

You didn't say that the Architect in the private sector was specifically working on an NHS project. If you did, then I would be talking about all of the Architects that are losing their jobs working in the House building industry.

 

I WAS comparing like with like (schools) and I do believe that it was implied that the £100m project was for Health (although I didn't repeat the word) for the private sector architect.

 

The point is still valid.

[bridge too far]

what do you do for a living, Bognor?

 

Are your skills transferrable to the public sector?

[Johnny Bognor]

what do you do for a living, Bognor?

 

Are your skills transferrable to the public sector?

 

I'm an entrepreneur and therefore I would have limited opportunity to succeed in a closed environment, where there is limited commercial opportunity, rules & regulations and procedures. It would kill me. Despite moaning, I thrive on risk and creating new business ideas - I would be wasted in the Public Sector.

[bridge too far]

Aah yes, rules and regulations. Let's get rid of them all.

 

The world would be a much nicer place without rules, regulations and procedures, wouldn't it.

 

Rules of the road, rules about protecting consumers, etc. etc. etc. Get rid of them all. Or is that anarchy?

 

Like me, you haven't been very entrepeneurial today, have you I hope your customers aren't paying for your down-time.

[View From The Top]

I'm an entrepreneur and therefore I would have limited opportunity to succeed in a closed environment, where there is limited commercial opportunity, rules & regulations and procedures. It would kill me. Despite moaning, I thrive on risk and creating new business ideas - I would be wasted in the Public Sector.

 

I'm sure posting leaflets through doors is full on risk taking.

[Johnny Bognor]

Aah yes, rules and regulations. Let's get rid of them all.

 

The world would be a much nicer place without rules, regulations and procedures, wouldn't it.

 

Rules of the road, rules about protecting consumers, etc. etc. etc. Get rid of them all. Or is that anarchy?

 

Like me, you haven't been very entrepeneurial today, have you I hope your customers aren't paying for your down-time.

 

No, I'm paying for it :-(

 

I'm sure posting leaflets through doors is full on risk taking.

 

One of my many talents - 3 million leaflets a month to be precise. I have also managed to create and launch the world's first speaking magazine adverts - which is truly innovative, revolutionary and risk taking don't you think?

Property investments are defintely risky at the moment amoungst other things.

 

Quitting a good job from a FTSE 100 company to start out on one's own is definately a risk

[Weston Super Saint]

Quitting a good job from a FTSE 100 company to start out on one's own is definately a risk

 

Depends what the job was.

 

Even FTSE 100 companies have toilets that need cleaning

[bridge too far]

No, I'm paying for it :-(

 

 

 

.......

 

Quitting a good job from a FTSE 100 company to start out on one's own is definately a risk

 

Learning to spell 'definitely' is an opportunity.

[Johnny Bognor]

Learning to spell 'definitely' is an opportunity.

 

 

Ah, the old "revert to spelling and grammar corrections technique" when the argument has been lost :-)

[Johnny Bognor]

Depends what the job was.

 

Even FTSE 100 companies have toilets that need cleaning

 

 

I bet you private sector toilet cleaners are paid less than public sector toilet cleaners ... just to bring things back on topic

[Weston Super Saint]

I bet you private sector toilet cleaners are paid less than public sector toilet cleaners ... just to bring things back on topic

 

Better 'perks' too

[bridge too far]

NHS toilet cleaners are paid on Band 1:

Band 1

 

Point 1 £12,517

Point 2 £12,922

Point 3 £13,269

Point 4 £13,617

I can't find comparable private sector rates but a lot of NHS cleaners are, in fact, private sector employees. I would imagine toilets in the NHS are a lot more unpleasant to clean than anything in the private sector

[bridge too far]

Ah, the old "revert to spelling and grammar corrections technique" when the argument has been lost :-)

 

Not at all

 

Risks and opportunities are usually talked about in the same breath. I was finding an opportunity for you to match the risk you are taking.

[Johnny Bognor]

NHS toilet cleaners are paid on Band 1:

Band 1

 

Point 1 £12,517

Point 2 £12,922

Point 3 £13,269

Point 4 £13,617

 

I can't find comparable private sector rates but a lot of NHS cleaners are, in fact, private sector employees. I would imagine toilets in the NHS are a lot more unpleasant to clean than anything in the private sector

 

Can't argue with that - one area where higher public sector pay is fully justified

[bungle]

I think the everyone on this thread (with the exception of nickh and Stanley) probably has a greater understanding of the economy than George Osborne. I think that is the key point.

[bridge too far]

Can't argue with that - one area where higher public sector pay is fully justified

 

I've just said that many NHS toilet cleaners are private sector employees (since a lot of NHS Trusts use FM contractors). The difference is that NHS employed cleaners taken over by the private sector have some of their Ts and Cs protected (under TUPE regulations) for a short while.

 

However, many choose to leave the service - not because of poorer employment terms, but because they want to work for the public (ie patients) rather than line the pockets of private companies. A shame, as many valuable and experienced FM staff have been lost to the NHS, to the detriment of the NHS.

 

You see, even some of the lowest paid are altruistic.

[Totton Red]

I think the everyone on this thread (with the exception of nickh and Stanley) probably has a greater understanding of the economy than George Osborne. I think that is the key point.

 

You really haven't a clue where the country is going over the next eighteen months have you? Perhaps try reading about Greenspan bubbles and the American reaction to 9/11 or the dotcom bust. Depression my friend will need more than a couple of prozac tablets or a 2.1**% discount.

[OldNick]

If you are envious of their pay and perks then join them.

 

You won't because you know it's ******s.

no because we have a personality, drive and ambition. Not a wish to sit on our a###s waiting for the next opportunity for a sickie.

[bridge too far]

no because we have a personality, drive and ambition. Not a wish to sit on our a###s waiting for the next opportunity for a sickie.

 

Nick - I enjoy debating with you but when you sink to that level of retort, any respect I have for you goes out of the window.

 

What a crass generalisation.

[OldNick]

I think the everyone on this thread (with the exception of nickh and Stanley) probably has a greater understanding of the economy than George Osborne. I think that is the key point.

well you are wrong. Months ago myself and a few others warned that the economy was going to fail big time. I also suggested that anybody who had credit card debt on here should forego anything including a holiday to bring their borrowing down so they would be better placed to cope with these times.

I also for the last 3 years have foreseen the state of the economy and the housing market.I downsized my house and moved into a smaller one 3 years ago and put a large amount on treasury. I would suggest that it may show Iam not such a numpty and might just read the markets better than yourself.

[OldNick]

Nick - I enjoy debating with you but when you sink to that level of retort, any respect I have for you goes out of the window.

 

What a crass generalisation.

BTF I agree and I was not aiming it at yourself or any other poster but Hacienda has lowered his comments to me on this thread and so I thought he needed a bit back. i try and be restrained but I will not sit and take abuse and then not answer back.

[Mao Cap]

no because we have a personality, drive and ambition. Not a wish to sit on our a###s waiting for the next opportunity for a sickie.

 

So what's the problem?