VAT rate down to 15%

[bridge too far]

For which the government (whether it be under a Labour or Conservative leadership) is well known for it's "efficient" use of funds...

 

Local councils can and do implement their own IT infrastructures and programmes as well as tap in to national ones. The point being discussed, Steve, was whether councils did or did not instruct and fund capital developments. Nothing more.

[OldNick]

This is laughable and shows a total lack of understanding of local government. I suggest reading this thread and you can see exactly how stupid and serious a centrally imposed knee-jerk freezing of Council Tax by central government would be.

 

Again, I make the more important point: the Tories have not (and will not!) say how they are going to stop local Council's been affected by this.

Well as I am not part of local government I dont have self interest in my views. I see local government as a most wasteful exercise and see people retiring early with index linked pensions , whilst hardworking people have to work on later and not have those perks. My friend who put some computer systems in councils (it was some years agol) call them gloried file carriers. There seemed to be a culture of sickies and lack of motivation.if the councils were started all over and worked as a proper business venture it would cost us all as tax payers a lot less.

[OldNick]

I don't know what you are laughing at as you are clearly confused. Council Tax is pretty much always going to need to go up by inflation, which is why freezing it is ridiculous. However, that is different from saying it ONLY goes up by inflation.

Why should council tax go up by inflation? It is a case that if it is known that there is going to be rises in budget each year then there is no need to watch costs. It is very much in the top peoples interest that their budgets g o up, as they get rewarded more for having that extra responsibility. It is a bad system, the top brass should get an increase if they save not spend more.

[bridge too far]

Well as I am not part of local government I dont have self interest in my views. I see local government as a most wasteful exercise and see people retiring early with index linked pensions , whilst hardworking people have to work on later and not have those perks. My friend who put some computer systems in councils (it was some years agol) call them gloried file carriers. There seemed to be a culture of sickies and lack of motivation.if the councils were started all over and worked as a proper business venture it would cost us all as tax payers a lot less.

 

I've tried so hard to put this myth to bed before. I've obviously failed. This is a FALLACY. Local government / NHS workers do not retire early. They cannot receive their workplace pensions until they are of retirement age. The exception to this is the nurse who may have to retire early with back problems caused by lifting. But that is the ONLY exception and, from memory, they can only retire at 5 years before national retirement dates.

 

Local government / NHS workers contribute to their pensions in the same way as (some) workers in private industry do. Public sector employers (councils, NHS) contribute to those pensions as do private employers to their employee pension funds. Who do you think ACTUALLY funds for example the pensions for, say, M & S staff, or building company employees? You and I do, through the prices we pay just as we do for the council / NHS services we pay for through council tax or NI.

 

NHS / council staff pensions rise in line with inflation as do private pensions (it's called index-linking). NHS / council pensions are predicated by years of service x 1/80th final salary. Since most of these workers are relatively low paid, it means that the average worker on, say £16K a year, and working for 20 years for the same employer, would get a pension of £4K a year.

 

Eye watering amounts eh?

Edited 27 November, 2008 by bridge too far
needed to emphasise employment with one employer

[Johnny Bognor]

Freezing coucil tax is not a bad idea, the councils are so awash with cash that they can gamble tax payers money by investing in Iceland (and I don't mean the frozen food company).

[Mole]

Freezing coucil tax is not a bad idea, the councils are so awash with cash that they can gamble tax payers money by investing in Iceland (and I don't mean the frozen food company).

 

Iceland is the best place to go on holiday because of the weak Krona. 3 months ago a pint cost £7.50 - now it costs £2.50. It's one of the few currencies performing worse than the pound.

[Guest Hacienda]

Freezing coucil tax is not a bad idea, the councils are so awash with cash that they can gamble tax payers money by investing in Iceland (and I don't mean the frozen food company).

 

Can you explain how freezing council tax next year will boost the economy now and how it will give people more money in their pockets?

 

I would also suggest you check on the laws regarding the amount of cash that councils must have spare which is why they were invested in higher interest offshore accounts.

 

Of course, you could just continue to make yourself look daft.

[bridge too far]

Freezing coucil tax is not a bad idea, the councils are so awash with cash that they can gamble tax payers money by investing in Iceland (and I don't mean the frozen food company).

 

I never fail to be staggered by the sheer ignorance shown by some people on this forum!

 

Councils are not 'awash' with money. They collect money from us (and get some from central government) to spread over the financial year.

 

This inevitably means that at the start of the financial year they have surplus funds but it is all budgeted for although not needed immediately.

 

So, as we all do when we have spare cash, they invest it to get interest to be used to provide more services.

 

Most councils employ the services of private contractors to advise on investment. None of those advisors foresaw the Icelandic bank collapse (nor did anyone else) and the councils simply followed the professional advice they'd been given.

[Weston Super Saint]

1996 council tax band d was : £803.48

2008 council tax band d was : £1440.84

 

An increase of £637.36.

 

Let's assume inflation was a VERY GENEROUS 4% over that time, the figure for 2008 should be : £1286.40, a more realistic 3% gives £1145.57

 

Alright the figures are from Stockport, but that's because I couldn't be arsed to search for Southampton, but I'll be happy to have it proven that Southampton COuncil tax increases haven't also risen by much much more than inflation....

 

http://www.stockport.gov.uk/content/councildemoc/council/counciltaxfinance/whatiscounciltax/counciltaxbands?a=5441

[bridge too far]

Hey, I've got a bright idea!

 

Why don't we scrap council tax altogether. Instead, we can individually pay the firefighter or the police to deal with personal fires, crime, RTAs etc. We can each pay for our children to go to school and we won't bother about trying to stop child abuse any more.

 

WE can take our own rubbish to a rubbish tip, although who will manage that tip I really don't know. Perhaps we'll just have to dump it in the woods! We can cut the grass verge outside our own house, and sweep the gutter and climb up the lamppost if the bulb goes.

 

This is a great idea. But there is one problem. I haven't worked out how much it will cost me to do all of this (and more). I wonder if it would cost me more as an individual than my council tax. After all, I won't have economies of scale

[Guest Hacienda]

We could pay according to how many adults live in a house with every adult paying the same amount.

 

We could give it a nifty name, something like The Poll Tax.

[Johnny Bognor]

I've tried so hard to put this myth to bed before. I've obviously failed. This is a FALLACY. Local government / NHS workers do not retire early. They cannot receive their workplace pensions until they are of retirement age. The exception to this is the nurse who may have to retire early with back problems caused by lifting. But that is the ONLY exception and, from memory, they can only retire at 5 years before national retirement dates.

 

Local government / NHS workers contribute to their pensions in the same way as (some) workers in private industry do. Public sector employers (councils, NHS) contribute to those pensions as do private employers to their employee pension funds. Who do you think ACTUALLY funds for example the pensions for, say, M & S staff, or building company employees? You and I do, through the prices we pay just as we do for the council / NHS services we pay for through council tax or NI.

 

NHS / council staff pensions rise in line with inflation as do private pensions (it's called index-linking). NHS / council pensions are predicated by years of service x 1/80th final salary. Since most of these workers are relatively low paid, it means that the average worker on, say £16K a year, and working for 20 years, would get a pension of £4K a year.

 

Eye watering amounts eh?

 

Public Sector Vs Private Sector Pensions

 

The PPI have recently published the results of research they have undertaken into the impact of the Government’s latest reforms of the public sector pensions in the UK. This new research looks at the overall effect of those changes and compares the schemes with their private sector counterparts. Headline figures coming from this research include:

• The schemes for the police, the armed forces and the fire service have reduced the average value from around 37% of salary to 33% of salary.
  
• Typical private sector defined benefit schemes are worth 20% of salary.
  
• Typical private sector defined contribution schemes are worth 7% of salary.
  
• Public sector employees are more than twice as likely as private sector employees to be members of an occupational pension scheme.
  
• 85% of public sector employees are members of an occupational pension scheme.
  
• 40% of private sector employees are members of an occupational pension scheme.
  
• Most members of public sector schemes are in defined benefit schemes.
  
• Only around 15% of private sector employees are members of defined benefit schemes.
  
• Employers contribute around £4,000 a year per employee in the public sector.
  
• Employers contribute around £1,600 a year per employee in the private sector.
  

 

BTF, I admire your one-woman crusade to defend the Public Sector, but at the end of the day, when it comes to pensions, the public sector have it pretty cushy.

 

For a private employer, to raise pension contributions would need to come from an increase in profit (which doesn't include price rises in a competitive market).

 

For a Public Sector employer, they just raise taxes, simple as that.

 

Without competition, the public sector pass on the cost of this to customers - a luxury that the private sector cannot afford.

[Johnny Bognor]

Most councils employ the services of private contractors to advise on investment. None of those advisors foresaw the Icelandic bank collapse (nor did anyone else) and the councils simply followed the professional advice they'd been given.

 

Sorry, have to pick you up on that one.....

 

Lord Oakeshott, Liberal Democrat Treasury Spokesman, may not have predicted the entire financial meltdown, but he did warn the Government of the possible collapse of Icelandic banks back in July. He said “"Alarm bells were ringing all over about the Icelandic banks and the Treasury must have been blind and deaf not to hear them.".

 

 

Bloody hell, that is twice in a week that I have referred to the Lib Dems to back up my argument (I must be going soft :-))

[Johnny Bognor]

Can you explain how freezing council tax next year will boost the economy now and how it will give people more money in their pockets?

 

I would also suggest you check on the laws regarding the amount of cash that councils must have spare which is why they were invested in higher interest offshore accounts.

 

Of course, you could just continue to make yourself look daft.

 

I was being sarcastic, which raised a response from the usual suspects.

 

But since we are on the subject, a freeze in council tax would be better than an increase in council tax, would it not?

 

Freezing a tax, is a tax cut in real terms. It would leave people with more money to spend rather than taking more out of their pockets.

 

Can you explain how a rise in employers NI is going to help employment prospects?

[bridge too far]

Bognor - it is not a crusade. I am no longer employed by the public sector, although the work I do is for local government, the NHS, housing associations, police forces etc.

 

Many, many public sector employees work in that sector, not for the money, (because the average public sector worker wage is less than the average comparitive private sector wage)*, but because some people are other than self-serving and do so out of a sense of making a contribution. As do the police, the military etc. etc.

 

I was surprised (or was I) to see how much pensions are for the police, fire service, military but, like nurses and other front-line staff, I guess that's because of the risk factor. Although, of course, nurses get a much lower percentage as I demonstrated earlier.

 

Defined benefit schemes in the public sector are paid out of current contributions. The NHS Pension fund, for example, receives contributions from current workers (and NHS trusts) and these are used on a current-time basis to pay out to pensioners.

 

But, as I said just now, let's all stop paying any taxes at all and fund all our needs ourselves. Then we can't moan if we feel we're paying too much, can we. Instead, we can line the pockets of insurers 'just in case' we need a policeman, fireman, doctor or refuse collector.

 

Which will be the best value for money I wonder.

 

* For Example: when I was a project manager on a £100m hospital development scheme, I was negotiating with and managing the contractor's project manager who was on double the salary I was getting. IT personnel in the NHS get a fraction of what they could get in the private sector. Just two examples, but there are many more out there.

[Johnny Bognor]

But, as I said just now, let's all stop paying any taxes at all and fund all our needs ourselves. Then we can't moan if we feel we're paying too much, can we. Instead, we can line the pockets of insurers 'just in case' we need a policeman, fireman, doctor or refuse collector.

 

Unfortunately it would not be possible to privatise local government (which you seem to be suggesting), and the system we have is the only way.

 

I just wish public sector workers would stop moaning and accept that they have it pretty cushy.

 

Pehaps they feel guilty for their molly-coddled cotton-wool-wrapped world and by moaning, makes the suffering masses in private employment feel a little better?????

[bridge too far]

Unfortunately it would not be possible to privatise local government (which you seem to be suggesting), and the system we have is the only way.

 

I just wish public sector workers would stop moaning and accept that they have it pretty cushy.

 

Pehaps they feel guilty for their molly-coddled cotton-wool-wrapped world and by moaning, makes the suffering masses in private employment feel a little better?????

 

OMG! I tell you, I'm much less stressed and far better rewarded by working in the private sector. I wish I could afford to work for the public sector again.

 

But then I wouldn't be able to just drift out of the office to meet my man (who has similarly 'gone missing') for a spot of lunch in our respective companies' time, would I? The joys of being in the private sector!

[bridge too far]

Unfortunately it would not be possible to privatise local government (which you seem to be suggesting), and the system we have is the only way.

 

I just wish public sector workers would stop moaning and accept that they have it pretty cushy.

 

Pehaps they feel guilty for their molly-coddled cotton-wool-wrapped world and by moaning, makes the suffering masses in private employment feel a little better?????

 

Why not?

[Guest Hacienda]

I was being sarcastic, which raised a response from the usual suspects.

 

But since we are on the subject, a freeze in council tax would be better than an increase in council tax, would it not?

 

Freezing a tax, is a tax cut in real terms. It would leave people with more money to spend rather than taking more out of their pockets.

 

Can you explain how a rise in employers NI is going to help employment prospects?

 

So freezing a tax is a tax cut is it. LOL. Not even the Tory frontbench believe that.

 

I wouldn't have raised NI contributions either, I would have just raised taxes for those earning above £100k and closing all the tax loopholes, especially for nom-doms.

[bridge too far]

So freezing a tax is a tax cut is it. LOL. Not even the Tory frontbench believe that.

 

I wouldn't have raised NI contributions either, I would have just raised taxes for those earning above £100k and closing all the tax loopholes, especially for nom-doms.

 

Oh I rather think they do, subversively Along with 'a dose of recession will do us all good' as opined by the Tory Health spokesman (Andrew Lansley I believe).

[Johnny Bognor]

So freezing a tax is a tax cut is it. LOL. Not even the Tory frontbench believe that.

 

I wouldn't have raised NI contributions either, I would have just raised taxes for those earning above £100k and closing all the tax loopholes, especially for nom-doms.

 

But that is just playing politics, to sure up support amoungst their core support.

 

The intake for the 45% tax band will supposedly raise 1.5bn - that is like trying to empty the pacific ocean with an egg cup. It will have virtually no impact on the economy whatsoever.

 

Got any other bright ideas????

 

There are many things that could have been done to protect small businesses at little or no cost to the taxpayer.

 

For example........

 

changing the VAT payment timescales to ease the cashflow of smaller businesses

 

A reduction (not an increase) in employers in NI would save jobs

 

Zero employers NI on all new jobs for the first 6 months of employment to encourage companies to take people on.

 

Better tax relief on capital investment

 

There are many more, but can't be arsed to list them. Unfortunately, this government are more concerned with playing politics than they are with saving the economy.

[Johnny Bognor]

OMG! I tell you, I'm much less stressed and far better rewarded by working in the private sector. I wish I could afford to work for the public sector again.

 

But then I wouldn't be able to just drift out of the office to meet my man (who has similarly 'gone missing') for a spot of lunch in our respective companies' time, would I? The joys of being in the private sector!

 

 

Oh come on, unemployment is going to rise to 3m.

 

Of those 1.2m who are losing or have lost their jobs, how many of these will come from the public sector?

 

I don't know if you noticed, but Woolworths and MFI went down yesterday - how many councils have gone bust in the last week?

[bungle]

I don't think that there are many people here arguing that Labour have got the solutions right.

 

What is the case is that Labour realise that something needs to be done, but the Tories would be happy to sit around and do nothing, and just don't have a plan as to how to deal with the current situation.

[Weston Super Saint]

Oh come on, unemployment is going to rise to 3m.

 

Of those 1.2m who are losing or have lost their jobs, how many of these will come from the public sector?

 

I don't know if you noticed, but Woolworths and MFI went down yesterday - how many councils have gone bust in the last week?

 

None because the government / us will bail them out for investing in Icelandic banks.

[Guest Hacienda]

But that is just playing politics, to sure up support amoungst their core support.

 

The intake for the 45% tax band will supposedly raise 1.5bn - that is like trying to empty the pacific ocean with an egg cup. It will have virtually no impact on the economy whatsoever.

 

Got any other bright ideas????

 

There are many things that could have been done to protect small businesses at little or no cost to the taxpayer.

 

For example........

 

changing the VAT payment timescales to ease the cashflow of smaller businesses

 

A reduction (not an increase) in employers in NI would save jobs

 

Zero employers NI on all new jobs for the first 6 months of employment to encourage companies to take people on.

 

Better tax relief on capital investment

 

There are many more, but can't be arsed to list them. Unfortunately, this government are more concerned with playing politics than they are with saving the economy.

 

Strange how the Deputy Chairman of the CBI said that they were happy with the steps to help small businesses (of which I am also one) but I don't think any sane person would object to the points you raised regarding business.

 

The Tories are so on the ball regarding how to cope with the worse economic crisis in 50 years that their eye catching, radical and brilliant idea is............................freezing council tax.

 

You really couldn't make it up.

[Guest Hacienda]

I don't think that there are many people here arguing that Labour have got the solutions right.

 

What is the case is that Labour realise that something needs to be done, but the Tories would be happy to sit around and do nothing, and just don't have a plan as to how to deal with the current situation.

 

Exactly.

 

The Tory muppets think that freezing council tax from next year deals with the crisis we find ourselves in now.

 

At least an ideological gap has now opened and the Tory frontbench have been exposed as the lightweight, clueless idiots we always knew they were.

[Johnny Bognor]

Strange how the Deputy Chairman of the CBI said that they were happy with the steps to help small businesses (of which I am also one) but I don't think any sane person would object to the points you raised regarding business.

 

The Tories are so on the ball regarding how to cope with the worse economic crisis in 50 years that their eye catching, radical and brilliant idea is............................freezing council tax.

 

You really couldn't make it up.

 

.....whilst the government who are in the position to ACTUALLY do something (rather than PRETEND to like the opposition) achieve the square root of **** all.

 

Having said this, I am schocked by the tories reponse - this was a massive opportunity to move into pole position when it comes to financial management, and they have failed spectacularly.

 

The problem is that these career politicians (tory and labour) have never really worked in a commercial context and therefore cannot think commercially.

 

Our own PM, whilst Chancellor, once said .......

 

I did maths for a year at university. I don't think I was very good at it. And some people would say it shows.

Gordon Brown

April 2007.

[Guest Hacienda]

.....whilst the government who are in the position to ACTUALLY do something (rather than PRETEND to like the opposition) achieve the square root of **** all.

 

Having said this, I am schocked by the tories reponse - this was a massive opportunity to move into pole position when it comes to financial management, and they have failed spectacularly.

 

The problem is that these career politicians (tory and labour) have never really worked in a commercial context and therefore cannot think commercially.

 

Our own PM, whilst Chancellor, once said .......

 

I did maths for a year at university. I don't think I was very good at it. And some people would say it shows.

Gordon Brown

April 2007.

 

The only politician worth listening to about finance and the economy is Vince Cable.

 

He should be Chancellor IMHO.

[Guest Hacienda]

Having said this, I am schocked by the tories reponse - this was a massive opportunity to move into pole position when it comes to financial management, and they have failed spectacularly.

 

It's because they are out of their depth.

 

Clarke was on the politics show on Tuesday and he alluded to the same thing. He also said that he would have cut VAT as well as it is the obvious tax to cut which rather puts him at odds with the frontbench of his party.

 

I know who I'm more inclinded to listen to between Clarke and Osbourne.

[bridge too far]

Oh come on, unemployment is going to rise to 3m.

 

Of those 1.2m who are losing or have lost their jobs, how many of these will come from the public sector?

 

I don't know if you noticed, but Woolworths and MFI went down yesterday - how many councils have gone bust in the last week?

 

Recent ones:

 

Oldham council = 850

Wolverhampton = 300

Glasgow = 400

 

all announced in the last month or so

 

You didn't answer my question 'why not privatise local councils and their services'. It was a rhetorical question, I grant you, but you still didn't answer it.

 

If local services were all privatised, some of them might go bust I'll grant you. But - for a start - would competition necessarily be implemented? If it was, then yes, some providers would go bust. But in reality, you'd get the big facilities boys like HBOS, Capita etc taking over and you can bet your bottom dollar you'd end up paying more.

 

Once upon a time, residential care was provided by councils. Then it was part-privatised. Now a lot of private nursing homes have gone out of business (I think there was one in Southampton only recently). What would you propose to replace services no longer viable because a private contractor deems it so? Or would you just leave elderly people, or children at risk?

[bridge too far]

......

 

The problem is that these career politicians (tory and labour) have never really worked in a commercial context and therefore cannot think commercially.

 

Our own PM, whilst Chancellor, once said .......

 

I did maths for a year at university. I don't think I was very good at it. And some people would say it shows.

Gordon Brown

April 2007.

 

However, politicians are advised by Civil Servants many of whom HAVE worked in the commercial sector (although the commercial sector doesn't really smell of roses right now). Politicians appraise options presented to them by their Civil Servants and make decisions accordingly.

 

You don't have to be good at Maths to understand Economics. Economics is more about cause and effect and is based, in part, on philosophical standpoints. That's why economists never agree.

 

Philosophy rarely comes into Maths (although my son had to study Maths Philosophy whilst doing his Philosophy degree :confused:)

[OldNick]

OMG! I tell you, I'm much less stressed and far better rewarded by working in the private sector. I wish I could afford to work for the public sector again.

 

But then I wouldn't be able to just drift out of the office to meet my man (who has similarly 'gone missing') for a spot of lunch in our respective companies' time, would I? The joys of being in the private sector!

perhaps its because you are working for a company that is dealing with the council that are so lax in getting value for money, your company can afford you to take it easy and not work so hard.

Please do not tell me that council workers do more hours than the private sector. Phone for an officer at the town hall before 10 or after 3 on a friday afternoon. I suspect you will get the 'Im sorry he's not at his desk at present' or 'he is at an outside meeting and will phone next week' or 'hes off sick at present'

ps I meant to put up a smiley winky thing

[Johnny Bognor]

Recent ones:

 

Oldham council = 850

Wolverhampton = 300

Glasgow = 400

 

all announced in the last month or so

 

 

That merely supports my point that the public sector has it pretty cushy.

 

Hundreds lose their jobs in the Public Sector whilst hundreds of thousands lose their jobs in the private sector.

 

Most people in the private sector are nervous, a significant percentage of which are extremely worried. Whilst in the public sector, it's business as usual.

 

You didn't answer my question 'why not privatise local councils and their services'. It was a rhetorical question, I grant you, but you still didn't answer it.

 

In general, when there is a monopoly supplier for goods or services, the service is usually **** - because it can be. However people cite privitisation as the answer - which despite my political affiliations - I don't necessarily agree with in all situations.

 

With BA, privatisation was a good thing, they were forced to truly compete and have developed as a company . BT is another excellent example where privatisation has worked. Both of these companies are innovative and well respected - far better than when they were under government control.

 

On the other hand, privatisation of the railways has not worked. Although the railways are private, Southern who cover our area are a monopoly supplier, and therefore it is not subject to true competition.

 

With Utilities we have a cartel of private suppliers, which again is no better than a monopoly as we are not getting real value.

 

Local Government contracting out guarantees the work for the winning private enterprise. As long as they perform to their contract, they keep the work. There is no need for them to continually improve, innovate and add value - because the 'demands' of the 'customer' are unlikely to change. The private company effectively has a monopoly on the service they provide during the tenure of the contact - therefore the service they provide is likely to be no better.

 

As said before, privatisation can only only really work where there is true competition. So for me, it is less about privatisation being the answer to all our ills as many examples of privatisation involve monopoly supply, where competition is stiffled.

 

With local government, many of the services cannot be provided by multiple suppliers at the same time - it is not economically or practically feasible to do so. Therefore, you can't privatise everything, local government being a good example.

 

Does this help?

[bridge too far]

perhaps its because you are working for a company that is dealing with the council that are so lax in getting value for money, your company can afford you to take it easy and not work so hard.

Please do not tell me that council workers do more hours than the private sector. Phone for an officer at the town hall before 10 or after 3 on a friday afternoon. I suspect you will get the 'Im sorry he's not at his desk at present' or 'he is at an outside meeting and will phone next week' or 'hes off sick at present'

ps I meant to put up a smiley winky thing

 

Au contraire! My job is to work with councils to ENSURE that they are getting VfM - it's what I do!

 

If they are not getting VfM, I have to report that to the Audit Commission. Officers and very senior executives have lost their jobs as a result of Audit reports.

 

When I worked as a Project Manager for the NHS, it was the norm to work a 12 hour day and at weekends. It's one of the reasons I left.

 

I am a partner in the company I now work for BTW.

[Johnny Bognor]

Au contraire! My job is to work with councils to ENSURE that they are getting VfM - it's what I do!

 

If they are not getting VfM, I have to report that to the Audit Commission. Officers and very senior executives have lost their jobs as a result of Audit reports.

 

When I worked as a Project Manager for the NHS, it was the norm to work a 12 hour day and at weekends. It's one of the reasons I left.

 

I am a partner in the company I now work for BTW.

 

Maybe this is the problem with the public sector. The consultants responsible for getting VfM from the councils are spending too much time on internet forums????? :-):-):-):-):-)

[OldNick]

We could pay according to how many adults live in a house with every adult paying the same amount.

 

We could give it a nifty name, something like The Poll Tax.

That is the fairest tax of all. (we have 3 people in our house). Therefore we undoubtedly use 3 times the facilities , refuse collecting etc etc than someone who lives in a house alone.

Every citizen would pay and perhaps there could be a levy to the main householder if they live in a higher price bracketed home.Id accept that, as long as ALL paid in.

[Guest Hacienda]

That is the fairest tax of all. (we have 3 people in our house). Therefore we undoubtedly use 3 times the facilities , refuse collecting etc etc than someone who lives in a house alone.

Every citizen would pay and perhaps there could be a levy to the main householder if they live in a higher price bracketed home.Id accept that, as long as ALL paid in.

 

Worked really wll the last time it was brought in if I remember rightly.

[OldNick]

Au contraire! My job is to work with councils to ENSURE that they are getting VfM - it's what I do!

 

If they are not getting VfM, I have to report that to the Audit Commission. Officers and very senior executives have lost their jobs as a result of Audit reports.

 

When I worked as a Project Manager for the NHS, it was the norm to work a 12 hour day and at weekends. It's one of the reasons I left.

 

I am a partner in the company I now work for BTW.

Who audits the costs charged by the auditors? Im sorry BTF im very cynical about all companies that sub contract or any payments the councils make.

[bridge too far]

That merely supports my point that the public sector has it pretty cushy.

 

Hundreds lose their jobs in the Public Sector whilst hundreds of thousands lose their jobs in the private sector.

 

But these hundreds in 3 councils were just in the last month. I don't know how many private sector workers (banking aside for obvious reasons) have lost their jobs in the past month. I doubt it is HUNDREDS of thousands. Even Woollies workers are to carry on working at least until Christmas (not that I'm dissing their situation of course).

 

My own children are at risk of losing their jobs - one works in corporate governance for a major estate agent and the other is a senior for an American software house - both affected by things globally as well as nationally. So I can well sympathise with people's fears.

......

 

Local Government contracting out guarantees the work for the winning private enterprise. As long as they perform to their contract, they keep the work. There is no need for them to continually improve, innovate and add value - because the 'demands' of the 'customer' are unlikely to change. The private company effectively has a monopoly on the service they provide during the tenure of the contact - therefore the service they provide is likely to be no better.

 

Yes there is - every service contract will contain at least an annual review with a requirement to show all 3. Failure to do so could result in termination of contract or, at the very least, service failure deductions (reduced bills to the council).

 

As said before, privatisation can only only really work where there is true competition. So for me, it is less about privatisation being the answer to all our ills as many examples of privatisation involve monopoly supply, where competition is stiffled.

 

With local government, many of the services cannot be provided by multiple suppliers at the same time - it is not economically or practically feasible to do so. Therefore, you can't privatise everything, local government being a good example.

 

Does this help?

 

So the only viable alternative is for us all to do our own thing?

 

The very point I'm making is that we have to have local government, like it or not, and, unless we're prepared to offer an alternative solution, all we can do is 'suffer' to some extent and vote out incumbent councillors if we don't like the way things are being managed.

 

As I highlighted above, when a recent report I did highlighted failures on behalf of senior executives in one council department, those executives were called to account by the local councillors and were sacked.

[OldNick]

Worked really wll the last time it was brought in if I remember rightly.

Was it ever implimented? I thought it never got through and so they put up the vat 2.5% instead. It was still a fair tax, or as it may cost you more you dont want it.

[bridge too far]

Maybe this is the problem with the public sector. The consultants responsible for getting VfM from the councils are spending too much time on internet forums????? :-):-):-):-):-)

 

Dumbo! I charge them an agreed rate for the work I do for them. If I'm not doing work for them, I don't charge them

 

If I've got a quiet day - being my own boss - I'll sit here undertaking my other quest in life which is to try to explain how some things work in the field that I know, so that people understand what really happens rather than believe the crap some people peddle.

[bridge too far]

That is the fairest tax of all. (we have 3 people in our house). Therefore we undoubtedly use 3 times the facilities , refuse collecting etc etc than someone who lives in a house alone.

Every citizen would pay and perhaps there could be a levy to the main householder if they live in a higher price bracketed home.Id accept that, as long as ALL paid in.

 

You mean the refuse collector walks up and down your drive 3 times instead of once? You need 3 street lamps to light up the road near your house instead of one? Your house might get broken into or burned down 3 times in a night instead of once?

 

Cripes :shock:

[stevegrant]

But these hundreds in 3 councils were just in the last month. I don't know how many private sector workers (banking aside for obvious reasons) have lost their jobs in the past month. I doubt it is HUNDREDS of thousands. Even Woollies workers are to carry on working at least until Christmas (not that I'm dissing their situation of course).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7724084.stm

 

140,000 added to the unemployed list between July and September (presumably more than that actually lost a job during that time as some from the previous list will have begun a new job in that period), and considering the real **** has only hit the fan publicly since September, I'd imagine that figure's risen again.

[Johnny Bognor]

So the only viable alternative is for us all to do our own thing?

 

The very point I'm making is that we have to have local government, like it or not, and, unless we're prepared to offer an alternative solution, all we can do is 'suffer' to some extent and vote out incumbent councillors if we don't like the way things are being managed.

 

As I highlighted above, when a recent report I did highlighted failures on behalf of senior executives in one council department, those executives were called to account by the local councillors and were sacked.

 

....and I was not disagreeing with that point of view. I do, however, disagree that the private sector have it pretty cushy. If anything, you have managed to convince me that the total opposite is the case - better pensions and better job security,

Edited 27 November, 2008 by Johnny Bognor

[bridge too far]

Who audits the costs charged by the auditors? Im sorry BTF im very cynical about all companies that sub contract or any payments the councils make.

 

The National Audit office. HTH

 

Also we are appointed as a result of a competitive tendering process.

 

Councils have to sub-contract because the middle classes bleat on about how many public sector workers there are. So about 15-20 years ago, the public sector workforce was cut and private consultants (the same people in reality) were employed.

 

The argument is that the councils etc are paying only for actual time spent on the work with no on-costs. In other words the councils don't have to pay for sick leave, holiday leave, maternity leave, NI, down-time etc.

 

(I'm sure I've made this point elsewhere in recent days :confused:).

 

The counter-argument is that the councils have to spend more on 'expertise' than they would have done if those folk were employed by the councils.

[Johnny Bognor]

 

If I've got a quiet day - being my own boss - I'll sit here undertaking my other quest in life which is to try and justify why life in the public sector is really difficult and full of hardship

 

There, that's better :-)

[bridge too far]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7724084.stm

 

140,000 added to the unemployed list between July and September (presumably more than that actually lost a job during that time as some from the previous list will have begun a new job in that period), and considering the real **** has only hit the fan publicly since September, I'd imagine that figure's risen again.

 

All in the private sector?

[Johnny Bognor]

All in the private sector?

 

 

The vast majority, I am sure.

 

BTF, you don't honestly believe that the public sector are going to bear the brunt of job losses in this recession, do you?

[bridge too far]

....and I was not disagreeing with that point of view. I do, however, disagree that the private sector have it pretty cushy. If anything, you have managed to convince me that the total opposite is the case - better pensions and better job security,

 

But significantly lower wages.

 

No huge mega-millions golden handshakes in the public sector.

 

I've just been looking through the Health Service Journal and a 'Modern Matron' - in charge of nursing in an acute hospital can earn as little as £30K.

 

A Modern Matron will have many skills (apart from nursing) that can transfer into the private sector where he / she would earn substantially more than that paltry sum.

[OldNick]

You mean the refuse collector walks up and down your drive 3 times instead of once? You need 3 street lamps to light up the road near your house instead of one? Your house might get broken into or burned down 3 times in a night instead of once?

 

Cripes :shock:

No but the waste we leave is no doubt 3 times more, or there is 3 times chance we need the emergency services or call the council (if anyone is there of course)

It is a fairer way of charging people and like VAT everyone pays in.