VAT rate down to 15%

[Weston Super Saint]

One of the things I have to do in my job is to look at 'Gershon savings'. This is where each local council has to achieve targetted savings compared to its 2004-05 budget. This financial year every local council will have to spend 10% less on non-pay items than it did in 2004-05.

 

Here's an example from a District council (I googled it - not a piece of work I did )

 

http://www.cheltenham.gov.uk/libraries/documents/the%20council/finance/budget08_09/table_2_gershon_savings.pdf

 

These savings are achieved by 'collaborative procurement' whereby local councils join forces to benefit from economies of scale for such things as energy, transport, me etc. and by developing frameworks, again to drive down prices.

 

If they don't achieve these savings, their annual audit opinion is 'qualified' and they lose out on grants.

 

Most councils achieve and many exceed their targets. So don't believe all you read in the papers

 

Local councils are VERY different to central government

[bridge too far]

Local councils are VERY different to central government

 

Central government funds local government. (OK local government collects council tax to send to central government who then send it back with extra cash).

 

Where central government wastes money is by buying in 'expertise' in the form of consultants (like me).

 

Those consultants originally worked for central / local government, the NHS etc and, as part of a huge cost-cutting exercise in the late 80s / early 90s, were made redundant.

 

So they either set up their own consultancies or went to work for one of the big boys. And subsequently charged way over what they were paid when they were 'civil servants'. And got what they asked for because, suddenly, there was a shortage of people with the right skills and experience. Never mind, the size of the civil service had been reduced.

 

The counter-argument of course is that e.g. a council doesn't have to pay my annual salary + on-costs; it only pays me for the days I work for it.

 

But I'm still earning far more than I did, doing the same job for the NHS Go figure!

[saintwarwick]

Given that current rates are about 43p per mile, it doesn't take a genius to realise that only very local (to Westminster) MPs would have such a small claim (280 miles a month). Most claims would be far in excess of £140 pcm and would, therefore, have to have receipts attached.

 

The administrative costs of processing such a small claim probably far outweigh the benefit of catching out a cheat IMO.

 

(Takes auditor hat off)....

 

http://www.emmerson-hill.co.uk/downloads/Mileage_rates.pdf

 

I found this, that's where I got my info from. Go to the bottom of the page and it show's you the figure of 350 miles per month without providing receipts. going by that reckoning if an MP claimed £1000.00 a month travel expenses he will only have to provide £860.00 in receipts.

[bridge too far]

http://www.emmerson-hill.co.uk/downloads/Mileage_rates.pdf

 

I found this, that's where I got my info from. Go to the bottom of the page and it show's you the figure of 350 miles per month without providing receipts. going by that reckoning if an MP claimed £1000.00 a month travel expenses he will only have to provide £860.00 in receipts.

 

350 miles a month is nothing, even for a London constituency MP TBH. Blimey, I do that in half a week, and I'm in the office for half the week!

 

Still, if you think an extra person or two should be employed at say £20K p.a (= £800 pw total cost + on-costs) to catch out the odd MP who claims £140 a month fraudulently, so be it.

 

But have a word with Weston Super Saint first - he wants to find efficiency savings in central government.

[Scummer]

 

I don't claim for travelling TO work but I do claim for travelling TO OTHER PLACES IN CONNECTION WITH MY WORK.

 

An MP's place of work is his/her constituency. S/he can claim for travel to the HoC.

 

Or would you rather only the very wealthy were MPs so they can pay out of their own pockets?

 

Or better still, not draw a salary at all?

 

Dolt.

 

Don't think there was any need for that, it was a simple question.

[saintwarwick]

For anyone running a pub it's bad news - as if we needed more bad news

 

Who's going to pay for this cut in VAT, oh that's right, the duty on tobacco and alcohol is going to be increased, which WILL be passed on to the consumer, who WILL decide to spend even less of their money in the pub and even more of their money in the local supermarket.

 

Then, just to top it all off, once the customers have all gone, NI contributions will be increased.

 

I can't wait.

 

Also in 12 months time we will have another budget with another hike in tobacco, alcohol and fuel duty, then two months later VAT will go back up to 17.5% followed by the NI contribution increase. Plenty to look forward to.

[bridge too far]

Don't think there was any need for that, it was a simple question.

 

Oh sorry - my bad. I thought you were being sarcastic. I really did.

 

Friends?

[bridge too far]

Also in 12 months time we will have another budget with another hike in tobacco, alcohol and fuel duty, then two months later VAT will go back up to 17.5% followed by the NI contribution increase. Plenty to look forward to.

 

NI doesn't go up until 2011.

[OldNick]

yeah I can see Tesco and every retail business going around repricing all their stock.The cost of doing so in time is more costly. The prices will stay the same.

Shops are slashing prices more than 2.5% and still things are not moving.This is just another sly way of upping Vat longterm but dressing it up to look customer friendly. Mandy is back and he knows how gullible people are. Cynicism at its best.

I and others said months back on here to get rid of your credit card debt if possible as we were in for a rocky ride.Returning from America i am not at all hopeful that things will get better quickly.

[bungle]

The other thing no-one is mentioning is that regulated rail fares go up 6% on the 2nd January. This means that since Labour came to power travelling by train has gone up 6% more than inflation.

[OldNick]

350 miles a month is nothing, even for a London constituency MP TBH. Blimey, I do that in half a week, and I'm in the office for half the week!

 

Still, if you think an extra person or two should be employed at say £20K p.a (= £800 pw total cost + on-costs) to catch out the odd MP who claims £140 a month fraudulently, so be it.

 

But have a word with Weston Super Saint first - he wants to find efficiency savings in central government.

I love it, the ODD MP overclaiming.LOL.

BTF there is a lot from all parties who are at it.What is the allowance they can have BEFORE they have to produce evidence of purchase. How about they need a pen , you and I would suspect them to claim for a BIC where some have claimed for Mont Blancs.I know this is your specialised subject, but all parties have MP's who are up to no good.

[bridge too far]

I love it, the ODD MP overclaiming.LOL.

BTF there is a lot from all parties who are at it.What is the allowance they can have BEFORE they have to produce evidence of purchase. How about they need a pen , you and I would suspect them to claim for a BIC where some have claimed for Mont Blancs.I know this is your specialised subject, but all parties have MP's who are up to no good.

 

Hello sweetie xx

 

I think you're missing my point. I'm simply pointing out a) that most, if not all, MPs will exceed 280 miles a month on official business. Therefore, those who claim without receipts will be the exception and probably be MPs for inner London constituencies or crap MPs who never hold surgeries and b) the cost of checking claims under £140 will far exceed any money recouped through fraudulent claims. That is all I'm saying.

 

I don't deny that there are corrupt MPs. Was it Ben Dover (gg) an MEP who recently got sacked by the Conservatives for being one (of many) who channel expenses to private companies owned by their families, thus paying their families for work that they didn't ever do?

[bridge too far]

The other thing no-one is mentioning is that regulated rail fares go up 6% on the 2nd January. This means that since Labour came to power travelling by train has gone up 6% more than inflation.

 

Aren't the train companies private enterprises, Bungle?

 

Do we blame the government because British Gas put up their gas bills way beyond the increased cost of fuel? (My daughter, at home on maternity leave with a 6 month old baby, has had her gas DD increase from £110 pcm to £270 pcm and British Gas will brook no argument :shock:)

 

Rail companies and energy companies should be renationalised IMO.

[Weston Super Saint]

Central government funds local government. (OK local government collects council tax to send to central government who then send it back with extra cash).

 

Where central government wastes money is by buying in 'expertise' in the form of consultants (like me).

 

Those consultants originally worked for central / local government, the NHS etc and, as part of a huge cost-cutting exercise in the late 80s / early 90s, were made redundant.

 

So they either set up their own consultancies or went to work for one of the big boys. And subsequently charged way over what they were paid when they were 'civil servants'. And got what they asked for because, suddenly, there was a shortage of people with the right skills and experience. Never mind, the size of the civil service had been reduced.

 

The counter-argument of course is that e.g. a council doesn't have to pay my annual salary + on-costs; it only pays me for the days I work for it.

 

But I'm still earning far more than I did, doing the same job for the NHS Go figure!

 

I was also alluding to the 'lucrative' expense accounts and John Lewis kitchens that are probably even more prevalent than reported in the red tops...

[bungle]

Aren't the train companies private enterprises, Bungle?

 

Do we blame the government because British Gas put up their gas bills way beyond the increased cost of fuel? (My daughter, at home on maternity leave with a 6 month old baby, has had her gas DD increase from £110 pcm to £270 pcm and British Gas will brook no argument :shock:)

 

Rail companies and energy companies should be renationalised IMO.

 

I think it's important to mention because whenever the Government issues "help" it is always the motorist (and the cost of motoring has fallen by 10% in real terms since 1997). Again yesterday Labour helped the motorist with it's phasing in of VED.

 

Well, why can the government not call for a 1 year freeze in rail fares, to help public transport users through this tough time? They could pay for this by delaying major road widening schemes. As always, though, it's motorist first.

[OldNick]

Hello sweetie xx

 

I think you're missing my point. I'm simply pointing out a) that most, if not all, MPs will exceed 280 miles a month on official business. Therefore, those who claim without receipts will be the exception and probably be MPs for inner London constituencies or crap MPs who never hold surgeries and b) the cost of checking claims under £140 will far exceed any money recouped through fraudulent claims. That is all I'm saying.

 

I don't deny that there are corrupt MPs. Was it Ben Dover (gg) an MEP who recently got sacked by the Conservatives for being one (of many) who channel expenses to private companies owned by their families, thus paying their families for work that they didn't ever do?

A bag of snakes the majority of them in my view BTF.

[OldNick]

Rail companies and energy companies should be renationalised IMO.

Please dont tell me you are serious. I am now happy to travel on the train where it is clean and more reliable than it used to be when it was state run.State run businesses are a failure and rarely give value for money if at all.

[bridge too far]

Please dont tell me you are serious. I am now happy to travel on the train where it is clean and more reliable than it used to be when it was state run.State run businesses are a failure and rarely give value for money if at all.

 

Whereas private businesses aren't? Like banks, you mean? And trains give VfM? I'll come back and kick you for that one tomorrow when I get back from travelling to London from Oxfordshire and back on the train and having to stand all the way

 

I believe (and can remember, cos I'm that old) that Utility companies priced their goods and services far more competitively when they were nationalised.

 

Some people will say there's no competition when utilities / trains etc are nationalised but, hello, what about the cartels that operate, especially in the energy industry? And governments can regulate nationalised industries far more than they can private enterprise (people moan about 'red tape' - remember?)

[saintwarwick]

350 miles a month is nothing, even for a London constituency MP TBH. Blimey, I do that in half a week, and I'm in the office for half the week!

 

Still, if you think an extra person or two should be employed at say £20K p.a (= £800 pw total cost + on-costs) to catch out the odd MP who claims £140 a month fraudulently, so be it.

 

But have a word with Weston Super Saint first - he wants to find efficiency savings in central government.

 

I didn't mention anything about employing extra people to prevent fraudulent claims, I merely pointed out what an MP can accrue without providing receipts. 350 miles may be nothing in your eyes but £1680.00 a year is a lot of money to a lot of people who do not have this privilage of claiming mileage allowance. I noticed Janet Anderson, labour MP for Rossendale and Darwen travelled almost 35,000 miles last year to claim her £13,851.00 mileage allowance, that's a lot of driving!

[OldNick]

Whereas private businesses aren't? Like banks, you mean? And trains give VfM? I'll come back and kick you for that one tomorrow when I get back from travelling to London from Oxfordshire and back on the train and having to stand all the way

 

I believe (and can remember, cos I'm that old) that Utility companies priced their goods and services far more competitively when they were nationalised.

 

Some people will say there's no competition when utilities / trains etc are nationalised but, hello, what about the cartels that operate, especially in the energy industry? And governments can regulate nationalised industries far more than they can private enterprise (people moan about 'red tape' - remember?)

Nationised industry does nothing , there's no enterprise or need to do push on. I cant recall many East European companies ever setting the world alight. Speak to Germans from the Western side and they dislike their East countrymen as so many (until most recently) were ingrained into not having to achieve or have work ethic.

Anyway i must move away from idealism as you have mentioned your close ties to unions and labour and so it is a pointless debate. you believe and so will not want to see. Not that i dont respect you for it, it is your right to have such a mindset, and of course so have I

[saintwarwick]

NI doesn't go up until 2011.

 

I know but we still have it to look forward to.

[stevegrant]

Whereas private businesses aren't? Like banks, you mean? And trains give VfM? I'll come back and kick you for that one tomorrow when I get back from travelling to London from Oxfordshire and back on the train and having to stand all the way

The train gives excellent value for money, IMO, as long as you make the same journey every bloody day.

 

My monthly season ticket to work in London is just under £400, which works out at about £18 return per day (the daily peak return price is just under £60). Clearly that'll be going up fairly soon, but even so, I know that every time I get on the train at Southampton Central, I'm guaranteed a seat and I don't have to worry about traffic, concentrating for 2 hours on the roads and of course the exhorbitant cost of petrol. The train works out at about 11p per mile to Waterloo. Driving my car would cost about £25-30 for the same journey.

[bridge too far]

The train gives excellent value for money, IMO, as long as you make the same journey every bloody day.

 

My monthly season ticket to work in London is just under £400, which works out at about £18 return per day (the daily peak return price is just under £60). Clearly that'll be going up fairly soon, but even so, I know that every time I get on the train at Southampton Central, I'm guaranteed a seat and I don't have to worry about traffic, concentrating for 2 hours on the roads and of course the exhorbitant cost of petrol. The train works out at about 11p per mile to Waterloo. Driving my car would cost about £25-30 for the same journey.

 

That's my problem Steve - I don't! I'm lucky in that I can work either at home or in the office and do my work remotely. But lately my clients have got mega-twitchy about data security and so now, occasionally, I have to schlep up to the ol' smoke.

 

Hence, I pay extortionate 'last minute' fares and rarely get a seat. I think the train companies should be sued under the Trades Descriptions Act but they'd probably argue they're providing the journey, not the seat.

[bridge too far]

I know but we still have it to look forward to.

 

This is quite interesting:

 

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7746241.stm

 

It shows how much better off a lot of us will be in spite of changes to NI in 2011.

 

And of course it doesn't include increased child benefit, working families tax credits etc.

 

I was expecting to be worse off TBH

[OldNick]

That's my problem Steve - I don't! I'm lucky in that I can work either at home or in the office and do my work remotely. But lately my clients have got mega-twitchy about data security and so now, occasionally, I have to schlep up to the ol' smoke.

 

Hence, I pay extortionate 'last minute' fares and rarely get a seat. I think the train companies should be sued under the Trades Descriptions Act but they'd probably argue they're providing the journey, not the seat.

A leftie like you must love standing on a train and mixing with the sweaty workers.

I ddi read recently somewhere that surprisingly that more people travel by train now than they ever had before. It was a surprise to me.

[Hatch]

I was expecting to be worse off TBH

 

Likewise. Pleasantly surprised.

 

Though it will be grabbed straight back off me.

[Guest Hacienda]

It's very easy to criticise the government over all this, and believe me, I'm no fan of Brown, but they've made the Tories look like the empty vessel charlatans we all knew they were.

 

IMHO Vince Cable should be Chancellor.

[stevegrant]

I think the train companies should be sued under the Trades Descriptions Act but they'd probably argue they're providing the journey, not the seat.

Which is exactly right.

 

They provide sufficient carriages, within reason and allowing for platform sizes etc, to take as many people as possible on the busiest routes. If a train has 12 coaches but is still packed, there's not an awful lot they can do about it.

[bridge too far]

A leftie like you must love standing on a train and mixing with the sweaty workers.

I ddi read recently somewhere that surprisingly that more people travel by train now than they ever had before. It was a surprise to me.

 

Not that you're stereotyping of course

 

I think it's great more people use the trains - just a shame the train companies don't provide comfort and space but just grab the money and (metaphorically) run.

 

I guess some people really do worry about emissions (carbon ones) and others recognise that the roads are a nightmare. I'll always choose the train if I can because my ETA is more predictable.

 

It's just a shame that there aren't the stations and branch lines there used to be. Ian Hislop did a good programme on this last week.

[bridge too far]

Likewise. Pleasantly surprised.

 

Though it will be grabbed straight back off me.

 

How so?

[OldNick]

Not that you're stereotyping of course

 

I think it's great more people use the trains - just a shame the train companies don't provide comfort and space but just grab the money and (metaphorically) run.

 

I guess some people really do worry about emissions (carbon ones) and others recognise that the roads are a nightmare. I'll always choose the train if I can because my ETA is more predictable.

 

It's just a shame that there aren't the stations and branch lines there used to be. Ian Hislop did a good programme on this last week.

I can only go from my own experience BTF and I find the SW train from Salisbury up to London, clean reliable and comfortable.

[bridge too far]

I can only go from my own experience BTF and I find the SW train from Salisbury up to London, clean reliable and comfortable.

 

Lucky you - First Great Western are pants

[Weston Super Saint]

Which is exactly right.

 

They provide sufficient carriages, within reason and allowing for platform sizes etc, to take as many people as possible on the busiest routes. If a train has 12 coaches but is still packed, there's not an awful lot they can do about it.

 

Maybe another train with another 12 carriages :smt102

[1976_Child]

oh whoopee f\/cking doo.

 

that will really help. Cheers Darling. spineless ***t. How about a real tax cut paid for by cutting the size of the state. And then come 2011 we all have to pay shed loads more in tax. Labour bankrupts Britain....again.

Edited 25 November, 2008 by 1976_Child

[Hatch]

How so?

 

 

on lager mainly.

[Iowsaintsfan]

Of course they don't have to but businesses, especially small ones, need to get people back in their shops and spending money and so will pass on the cuts for their own benefit.

 

Isnt this just going to make the bigger shops bigger (ie asda, tesco etc) who already discount and use this for their own gain, if the wanted more people to benifit quickly surely it would have been better to cut Income tax further?

[bridge too far]

Isnt this just going to make the bigger shops bigger (ie asda, tesco etc) who already discount and use this for their own gain, if the wanted more people to benifit quickly surely it would have been better to cut Income tax further?

 

I think the counter-argument is that the government wants people to spend.

 

If they were to give larger tax cuts, many people would save instead and that wouldn't stimulate the economy or stop the job losses.

 

Whereas, with cuts in VAT, the only way to 'save' is to spend first, if you get my drift.

[bridge too far]

on lager mainly.

 

But your pint(s) aren't going to cost any more on Monday than they do today :confused:

 

Unless you're going to drink more :smt102

[OldNick]

I think the counter-argument is that the government wants people to spend.

 

If they were to give larger tax cuts, many people would save instead and that wouldn't stimulate the economy or stop the job losses.

 

Whereas, with cuts in VAT, the only way to 'save' is to spend first, if you get my drift.

but it is a pittance BTF. We are heading for deflation if we are not careful and that is scary. It may seem great that prices keep falling back but people then dont know when to buy as they think that prices will be less the following week and so stop spending.

I cant see a way out of this quickly.The government and bankers all were like pigs in muck drawing in the profits and taxes and couldnt get off the merry go round unil we have got this situation.

[bungle]

I see that George Osborne has secured an emergency debate (which could last 3 hours) on the pre-budget report, which will start at about 12.45, 1pm. I wonder if he's got anything to say yet?!

[OldNick]

I see that George Osborne has secured an emergency debate (which could last 3 hours) on the pre-budget report, which will start at about 12.45, 1pm. I wonder if he's got anything to say yet?!

I agree he has been poor. The problem the Tories and others face is that they can't look as though they are jumping on our grave.Brown and co have upped their game since they took back Mandelson who knows how to manipulate and duck and dive.As the nation sees that what they have done is waste and spent and the finances dont improve they will turn on him again.

[bungle]

What a surprise, Osborne does lots of nitpicking and saying he doesn't agree with things, but nothing from him or his party (so far!) acknowledging that something needs to be done and what they'd do.

[OldNick]

What a surprise, Osborne does lots of nitpicking and saying he doesn't agree with things, but nothing from him or his party (so far!) acknowledging that something needs to be done and what they'd do.

they can do nothng as they are not the gov. They can make suggestions that the gov might knick. Why has the government failed to tax the non-doms there is massive revenue there for picking.These are fat cats who make massive money from the City and dont pay into our system.I am very pro people making money but I detest ppeople like Sir Phillip Green making millions and then not paying taxes into our economy.It should be looked at, the Americans have laws to stop this happening and I read that the IRS were trying to make the Swiss banks give them details of accounts of the main fund manager of UBS, the Swiss of course are hiding behind their privacy laws.

[JohnnyFartPants]

What a surprise, Osborne does lots of nitpicking and saying he doesn't agree with things, but nothing from him or his party (so far!) acknowledging that something needs to be done and what they'd do.

 

I think they are all just knob heads to be honest.

[bungle]

they can do nothng as they are not the gov. They can make suggestions that the gov might knick.

 

Lol. I'm sorry, but your last two posts have been ridiculous.

 

Part of the job of being in opposition is, if you disagree with the government, to make it known what your alternative is. If the government steals your idea than great. I'd love to know the actual number of Lib Dem policies that Tory and Labour have stolen year on year.

 

The thing is, the Tories are clueless (although Ken Clarke is currently speaking very well) and are almost denying there is a problem and have no idea how to help people. So far the some total of their thoughts are to freeze Council Tax, which is so embarrassingly flawed that they barely even mention it!

[JohnnyFartPants]

Lol. I'm sorry, but your last two posts have been ridiculous.

 

Part of the job of being in opposition is, if you disagree with the government, to make it known what your alternative is. If the government steals your idea than great. I'd love to know the actual number of Lib Dem policies that Tory and Labour have stolen year on year.

 

The thing is, the Tories are clueless (although Ken Clarke is currently speaking very well) and are almost denying there is a problem and have no idea how to help people. So far the some total of their thoughts are to freeze Council Tax, which is so embarrassingly flawed that they barely even mention it!

 

The tories do lack a decent chancellor in the making, that has to be said. They have always had very good ones in the past too. Nigel Lawson was on TV recently and he seemed to be talking quite good sense but alas he is no longer around. I can't remember what he said though as I was sh1t faced, so maybe he didn't talk sense after all. Either way, he is better than the current gimp.

[Guest Hacienda]

Lol. I'm sorry, but your last two posts have been ridiculous.

 

Part of the job of being in opposition is, if you disagree with the government, to make it known what your alternative is. If the government steals your idea than great. I'd love to know the actual number of Lib Dem policies that Tory and Labour have stolen year on year.

 

The thing is, the Tories are clueless (although Ken Clarke is currently speaking very well) and are almost denying there is a problem and have no idea how to help people. So far the some total of their thoughts are to freeze Council Tax, which is so embarrassingly flawed that they barely even mention it!

 

Ken Clarke was on The Politics Show this morning.

 

He couldn't have made it more obvious that he thought that the opposition front bench were out of their league.

 

I may not like his politics but at least he seems to have a grasp of the mess that the free markets find themselves in.

[JohnnyFartPants]

Ken Clarke was on The Politics Show this morning.

 

He couldn't have made it more obvious that he thought that the opposition front bench were out of their league.

 

I may not like his politics but at least he seems to have a grasp of the mess that the free markets find themselves in.

 

Probably the best Tory leader to never have got elected.

[Saintandy666]

Hmmmmmmm, I dunno, it might help small business' who won't pass it on, but to be honest, for the big retaliers of this world, it will not make much difference as they are already cutting their prices by much larger amounts in desperation for money. If I was in charge, I would reinstate the 10p tax band or something similar and then introduce a 50% band for higher earners. I would also move the tax around a bit by cutting VAT and other taxes on essentials, healthy food and greener fuels(although at the moment probably just best to do it on all fuels plus is petrol without tax 30p or something?) and then rising it on their opposites. I am aware though, that any extreme changes in VAT on goods(below 15%??) you have to go to the european commission. :S Oh yea, and rise tax on cigarettes big time, a couple of quid would settle it nicely

 

Well, theres my unorganised and uneducated babble.

[OldNick]

. I'd love to know the actual number of Lib Dem policies that Tory and Labour have stolen year on year.

 

I cant recall anybody knicking any of the Liberals ideas, as I dont see many people wearing cycle clips by law or that children should be whispered to and never a loud voice be heard.