Anyone Else Uneasy About The Money Side Of Things?

[Sour Mash]

All true. We must always be vigilant with regards to our club and the chairmen, however I trust Cortese more than I ever trusted Lowe or Wilde. I know he does some weird stuff to p*ss people off, like the programme sellers and an apparent spat with MLT but relatively speaking that's all minor stuff. He's chosen the right manager for the job and backed him with his cheque book.

 

I don't think we will end up like the Skates because we know where the money is coming from. This club is a long term investment by a very sucessful business family. The Skates were different. Nobody knew where the money was really coming from and why people like Gaydamak were apparently willing to p*ss money up the wall with no prospect of future proffits.

 

All this money is needed to turn Saints from League 1 relegation fodder to Premier League European contenders. If we are a stable midtable Premier League club I believe we can be run profitably. Lets say we stay up and sign these 2 Carlos Kickaballs from Italy. Next season we would have a pretty strong Premier League team and wouldn't have to spend another £30 to stay up.

 

Pompey were different. They HAD the success, winning the cup, top half of the League, UEFA Cup run and they STILL Made a loss of about £25m for the year. We wont be like that.

That's the whole point - we don't know where all the money is coming from, we don't have a clue.

[Sour Mash]

This discussion is puerile at best, the original posts states confidence in The Don, but then says he is worried.... this is followed by a variety of other nervous posters who can't look at what who, what and why we have signed. You only have to look at the transfers of other clubs that got relegated and see what fees you can demand for good players on long term contracts... jarvis, fletcher etc. Our lot are young and tied down for years on good contracts.

 

The club have been prudent, with a 3million net spend to get to the premier.

 

People quote the 7th highest spenders on the continent this year as a reason why we are risking it all. But if you think about it, Italian and spanish football is broke ( literally excluding real and barca), you then have psg and a few eastern clubs to worry about. Even german football is not that wealthy as whilst they have the crowds and merchandising there is no chinese tv deals paying them £3bn.

 

The other point massivley in our favour is that we are in a very strong financial position.. the majority of premier league clubs are swimming in negative bank balances, certainly those we are competing with. So we went to the premier on the back of a low net spend, backed by billionaires, run by a swiss banker for a family that have NEVER borrowed or traded run a business into debt as a family policy. And people are worried about us as a football club... If we are ****ed then good luck to the rest of the premier.

 

Unlike a lot of people who put this then add a caveat about fecked if we go down.... I totally trust the Don. Every press release has alluded to us being comfortable and having under-spent against projected outlay, i doubt those projections included selling the ox either.

 

If we go down we will cover our losses anyway, £10mil for gaston, similar for AL, £7m for morgan and cork each? that is far from unreasonable and we would never have to sell them all, with that squad you could as good as guarantee coming back up anyway. The you have clyne? worth 5mil, shaw is anotehr £10-15mil. I mean seriously, if we went down, and sold them ALL. we would cover their transfer costs and have to pay wages for one year on the back of all the TV money.... sounds like a loss making idea to me

 

Hold your horses and stop being dell sized dimwits! and for gods sake, enjoy the ride and trust Nicola!

It obviously wasn't a "£3million net spend to get to the Premier League" was it?

[Barry Sanchez]

Not quite such a safe haven these days... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20907359

 

Let's face it, this expenditure is clearly a pretty substantial gamble for a club of our size and stature, and there's no public evidence to show how much we borrowed from Vibrac Corporation in the BVI in August to finance transfer spending back then, so for all we know the club could have borrowed anything up to £50m. The gamble pays off if we stay up. At this stage we're still well placed to do so, but clearly there's still no guarantee of anything.

 

However, then what happens in the summer? Presumably the Vibrac loan gets repaid, but then do we start the cycle all over again, or do we work more in line with what we've got considering the massive leap in Premier League TV rights money?

 

Ultimately we've got bugger all say in what happens, Cortese (or anyone else who may have an input in how tight the purse strings are) is not accountable to any of us whether we like it or not. For me, nothing has changed in terms of the way I view the club, "proceed with caution" is my approach. I do think it is a massive credit to the many people who do continue to ask (but rarely get an answer, naturally) questions regarding this sort of thing, though - just think, if those idiots down the road had done so a few years ago, perhaps they wouldn't be standing on the precipice right now...

 

 

We should always question, I do, the clappers just look at everything with sunshine and rainbow specs on and repeat back to back promotions and investment in a training ground and in crap players................

[Gemmel]

This discussion is puerile at best, the original posts states confidence in The Don, but then says he is worried.... this is followed by a variety of other nervous posters who can't look at what who, what and why we have signed. You only have to look at the transfers of other clubs that got relegated and see what fees you can demand for good players on long term contracts... jarvis, fletcher etc. Our lot are young and tied down for years on good contracts.

 

The club have been prudent, with a 3million net spend to get to the premier.

 

People quote the 7th highest spenders on the continent this year as a reason why we are risking it all. But if you think about it, Italian and spanish football is broke ( literally excluding real and barca), you then have psg and a few eastern clubs to worry about. Even german football is not that wealthy as whilst they have the crowds and merchandising there is no chinese tv deals paying them £3bn.

 

The other point massivley in our favour is that we are in a very strong financial position.. the majority of premier league clubs are swimming in negative bank balances, certainly those we are competing with. So we went to the premier on the back of a low net spend, backed by billionaires, run by a swiss banker for a family that have NEVER borrowed or traded run a business into debt as a family policy. And people are worried about us as a football club... If we are ****ed then good luck to the rest of the premier.

 

Unlike a lot of people who put this then add a caveat about fecked if we go down.... I totally trust the Don. Every press release has alluded to us being comfortable and having under-spent against projected outlay, i doubt those projections included selling the ox either.

 

If we go down we will cover our losses anyway, £10mil for gaston, similar for AL, £7m for morgan and cork each? that is far from unreasonable and we would never have to sell them all, with that squad you could as good as guarantee coming back up anyway. The you have clyne? worth 5mil, shaw is anotehr £10-15mil. I mean seriously, if we went down, and sold them ALL. we would cover their transfer costs and have to pay wages for one year on the back of all the TV money.... sounds like a loss making idea to me

 

Hold your horses and stop being dell sized dimwits! and for gods sake, enjoy the ride and trust Nicola!

 

Apart from the fact that we have taken out a loan for an unknown amount with a charge against ALL assets, you could be right. We are in debt.

[Turkish]

You are quite right. I am happy and content that we won't be playing CL football anytime soon if ever with the current setup. Bit when we do sell Ramirez and shaw. It won't go down well

 

But buying potential is massive gamble this season. Look at Shyte west ham with their Shyte manager. They will comfortably survive and never been in the bottom 6 at all. They have prem experience and what is to stop them buying their own Ramirez next season?

 

Depends if we reinvest it in players or not. If we do a Lowe and sell the likes of Wayne Bridges and replace them with Graham Le Sauxs then we are going to be in trouble. If we sign the next Ramirez or the next Clyne, who by then will be playing for an established side then that's fine. In fact, if we make loads of money on them we could buy two of them. If anyone seriosuly thinks the likes of Ramirez will be here in 5 years time they are deluded. Even Arsenal cant hold onto their best young players. For us it's making sure we get the most out of them we can, enoy them while we can and replace them with the next one.

 

I'd much rather do it our way than West Hams way, most football fans across the country probably would as well. I just think we should have started it as an established premier league club and done it gradually rather than in our first season.

[Gemmel]

It obviously wasn't a "£3million net spend to get to the Premier League" was it?

 

Yes - But only because of the Chamberlain money

[saints-cris]

The guys were buying I see as investments, were paying a good amount but as they're so young we'll get the money back no question. We're in a relegation battle, I'd be more worried if we werent spending money.

[Pedro]

We also have a huge income, a good average home gate and all the PL money and sponsorships. The secure capital assets can be envied by many clubs, so yes, I have full confidence in NC or surely the media would have dragged something up on him because of the contempt he treats them with.

[SaintNeil90]

People aslo forget that we are 2 years ahead of schedule. Cortese said this meant we would have more money to spend on transfers.

[Dellman]

Every player we buy, every improvement to the training ground may represent a loss in the annual figures but they represent a big plus in the value of the Club. As we are in private hands if they choose to sell they will obtain more not less. It's quite different from what the criminals down the road did to the Skates.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

We should always question, I do, the clappers just look at everything with sunshine and rainbow specs on and repeat back to back promotions and investment in a training ground and in crap players................

 

So the promotions & training ground mean nothing then?

 

Investment in crap players?

 

Like: Clyne? Gaston? Yoshi?

[paris]

No .......

[Greenridge]

Depends if we reinvest it in players or not. If we do a Lowe and sell the likes of Wayne Bridges and replace them with Graham Le Sauxs then we are going to be in trouble. If we sign the next Ramirez or the next Clyne, who by then will be playing for an established side then that's fine. In fact, if we make loads of money on them we could buy two of them. If anyone seriosuly thinks the likes of Ramirez will be here in 5 years time they are deluded. Even Arsenal cant hold onto their best young players. For us it's making sure we get the most out of them we can, enoy them while we can and replace them with the next one.

 

I'd much rather do it our way than West Hams way, most football fans across the country probably would as well. I just think we should have started it as an established premier league club and done it gradually rather than in our first season.

 

I totally agree with all your posts on this thread which has made my head hurt

 

I will now go and sit in a darkened room, well office anyway.

[Frank's cousin]

The problem with any privately owned business is that any we will never see the level of detail in any published accounts that would be necessary to fully understand the financial situation... especially given that there is more than one entity under the holding company and there woill be various accounting practices that I certainly dont have a clue about...

 

...so we will always be subject to speculation - especially given that its RIGHT we try and be aware of what is going on in light of the criticism of those down the road.

 

Turks is right (well feck me ;-) ) about the policy - buy young and build - that has resale value etc - all pretty good, but comes with greater risk initially to survival... but I am OK with the risk, but that is opinion which I know some will not agree with - all depends on how much you value prem survival versus a longer term aim.

 

Cortese will be desperate to stay up - no one wants an income reduction, but I suspect that the policy combined with PP of 48 mil over 4 years will be enough to ensure we dont go into melt down - suspect all contracts come with wage reductions on relegation clauses anyway.

 

so... why the need for the BVI loan?

 

I suspect cash flow - if correct and we had to pay the Ramirez money upfront, then this is understandable if we were also looking to have cash available for Jan window, given that a) prem revenue is made in installments, and not upfront, b) normally 15 mil would be paid over 3 or 4 years (length of contract etc)...

 

...But why would this be needed if the family or Mrcus left provision/trust cash for development

 

well its only a rumour, we simply dont know how much was left in trust by Marcus for the club or whether that has since all been used up. But its not beyond the realms of plasibilty that there is a trust fund - but if placed in trust, then there are usually specific rules for when or how money can be used - and If we have a pot somewhere, I suspect that its predominantly for infrastructure improvemnets or development after we achieve a certain status etc... but that is all speculation.

 

so should we be worried?... my guess is no, but its right to ask questions, even if we wont get any answers - I really would emphasise the fact that it would be incredibly unlikely that anyone would rescue a club, pay off its creditors, establish a long term plan and then fall into the overspending trap that saddles the club with debts again - it would simply make no sense and is the polar opposite of how Marcus and by default Nicola ran Marcus' businesses together - debt free with investment coming from existing capital.

 

Ironically, one advantage of the previous PLC structure was more detailed access to annual accounts, greater transparnecy etc, but as aprivately owned institution, we will have to trust those in control. I do from what little we have seen.

 

I appreciate there are some fans who do not like the current regime,for whatever reasons (mostly never stated - and mostly those who would dislike any regime that did not include some sort of fan ownership/board member) - who will naturally try and play this up and elevate 'the right to question' into a panic/major concern issue - but IMHO, there is no validity in their argument.

[Sour Mash]

Yes - But only because of the Chamberlain money

But my point is, there's much, much more to 'net spend' than just transfer fees.

[Suhari]

I'd be more worried if we were signing QPR or West Ham like signings, 30 something's on big money and little to prove. The players we have bought and are linked to are some of the most exciting young players in Europe, whilst every signing in football is a gamble, it seems ours are more "investments" than buys (if that makes sense).

 

Exactly this.

 

We wouldn't be spending if we could afford it. Cortese is no fool; he may be taking calculated risks, but he is no fool.

 

Far rather we bought young, expensive players with resale value than old heads without.

[Barry Sanchez]

So the promotions & training ground mean nothing then?

 

Investment in crap players?

 

Like: Clyne? Gaston? Yoshi?

 

Mayuka, Rodriguez, Boruc, Lee, the list could go on of overpriced crap.

Has Ramirez over the games we have seen him been actually worth it?

Yoshida?

 

Clyne is a good player who I rate but its still questionable whether he should be there every game.

Our squad has Fox,Hooiveld, Guly and De Ridder in it, enough said.

[Frank's cousin]

indeed we are not man U who can afford to buy world class players at the top of their game, but close to 30 as in Van Persie's case - what we can do is a combination of the Arsenal and Barcelona models - buy younger players we hope will develop and also use the academy to its best advantage - means in tehory we will always have a youngish side, but young does not ncessarily mean inexperienced if some of those have been playig in the first team since they were 18 or so - I would love it if we were able to hold the very best talent beyond 22/23 but we will never compete wage wise so without a wage cap that will never happen, we will not be able to... but we could see cyclical success with this model if everything falls into place - just need to stay up now to keep things going - relegation is not a disaster, but would set us back 2-3 years as some players would obviously leave and the building process would start again.

[Saint Garrett]

Another reason why we can't be in that much problem is we haven't let anyone leave. I'm sure if we were struggling a bit financially we would have let our fringe players leave. Even just to get them off the wage bill more than anything else. The fact that the club will only let players leave on our terms shows we're not desperately going to take knock down prices for players not playing.

[Frank's cousin]

Mayuka, Rodriguez, Boruc, Lee, the list could go on of overpriced crap.

Has Ramirez over the games we have seen him been actually worth it?

Yoshida?

 

Clyne is a good player who I rate but its still questionable whether he should be there every game.

Our squad has Fox,Hooiveld, Guly and De Ridder in it, enough said.

 

So you believe we should have bought in an entire new squad?

 

[Window Cleaner]

Another reason why we can't be in that much problem is we haven't let anyone leave. I'm sure if we were struggling a bit financially we would have let our fringe players leave. Even just to get them off the wage bill more than anything else. The fact that the club will only let players leave on our terms shows we're not desperately going to take knock down prices for players not playing.

 

Trouble is that our fringe players are on so much money that they're not affordable by clubs at their level. Adkins said so last week. NC doesn't seem to like subsidising contractual obligations with other clubs and the players won't leave for less. Dickson is the prime example, we won't pay any of his salary for a lesser club and he ain't taking a pay cut so he sits in the stands every week.We've had more sent back than we've loaned out so far..

[Brussels Saint]

We should be asking questions and have healthy concern, having almost lost the entire club once.

 

However, Cortese & the Liebherr family have earned some trust and whilst we will probably never know the exact financial position, what we do know makes fairly comfortable viewing.

 

This is primarily the assets of the company i.e. Stadium with no debt, world class training ground, future PL income, 1st team squad with massive saleable value (i.e. no journeymen pros you cannot sell on huge wages).

Even taking a fairly conservative estimate I think you could value the squad at around 61m maybe making the entire club even when relegated worth 100m.

 

I doubt our debts are anywhere near that number. For me relegation would be serviceable.

[Barry Sanchez]

So you believe we should have bought in an entire new squad?

 

 

Not far off it, our defence needed to be replaced and that look like its happening now 6 months too late, we signed Boruc the clown which is great.

In midfield we needed a winger but bought a £7 Million stirker to play out there, or a £3 Million player who does not play but who is the 85th best player in the World which is supercool, you get what you pay for and specualtion buys are just that.

[Barry Sanchez]

We should be asking questions and have healthy concern, having almost lost the entire club once.

 

However, Cortese & the Liebherr family have earned some trust and whilst we will probably never know the exact financial position, what we do know makes fairly comfortable viewing.

 

This is primarily the assets of the company i.e. Stadium with no debt, world class training ground, future PL income, 1st team squad with massive saleable value (i.e. no journeymen pros you cannot sell on huge wages).

Even taking a fairly conservative estimate I think you could value the squad at around 61m maybe making the entire club even when relegated worth 100m.

 

I doubt our debts are anywhere near that number. For me relegation would be serviceable.

 

£60 Million ? Whats the cost of stayying in the premiership?

[eurosaint]

For me it is like taking a long haul flight with a major airline !

If I didn't trust the brand (ergo the pilot as well !) I would not get on the plane in the first place !

Once I'm up in the sky, I have absolutely no control over my destiny so I sit back, relax with a good book and a glass of wine and look forward to arriving at my destination !

It's admirable that fans want to ask questions about the fine detail of the club's finances but I'm afraid that you are completely wasting your time with NC so you may as well strap yourself in and enjoy the ride as much as you can !!

[trousers]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17547804

[Barry Sanchez]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/ww2outbreak/

[trousers]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/ww2outbreak/

 

[Frank's cousin]

Not far off it, our defence needed to be replaced and that look like its happening now 6 months too late, we signed Boruc the clown which is great.

In midfield we needed a winger but bought a £7 Million stirker to play out there, or a £3 Million player who does not play but who is the 85th best player in the World which is supercool, you get what you pay for and specualtion buys are just that.

 

7m for a young striker with potential is nothing in comparison to what some ae paying - you are assuming that we spent money on one area INSTEAD of another - when teh reality is more likey we we identified the need to Stengthen in ALL areas, but to date have only SECURED the players we want in some. There is a huge amount of naivety on here amongst those who think we did not sign key players in key positions because we signed strikers or spent 15 mil euros on ramirez... the truth is more likely we did not get who we wanted and would not be forced into panic buying lower spec.

 

In addition, thsoe who think signing players is easy need to have a think. Yes some clubs can do deals quicker where they sling money at it or have a Euro competition in the bag to attract players - others like us, need to find players who will buy into the policy and approach and we also rightly seem to play hardball in negotiations - means it takes longer and appears more complex.

 

There will always be players who have promise but never live up to it and all clubs will make mistakes - even the top sides buy players that never make the grade, but for the likes of Ferguson, everyone in the media seem happy to forget his Forlan, Jordi moments... as I say all clubs and we will not be immune to it either.

[Barry Sanchez]

How long do you think Ramirez will be here for? That was an investment buy, get him and if we go down we sell and if he plays well we sell.

Rodriguez was a gamble no doubt, £7 Million! Far too high.

Why not a young foreign winger if one can not be found in the Country?

Oh right we bought Mayuka for £3 Million.

[Brussels Saint]

£60 Million ? Whats the cost of stayying in the premiership?

 

That was my estimate if we sold the lot on relegation and just played an academy. Combined with parachute payments, its a lot of assets.

Even if you think I have overestimated and priced it at 40m, I dont believe we have the debt to put us in danger.

 

Think the OP was asking should we be concerned (I assumed meaning will the club risk bankruptcy). I'm not, due to our level of saleable assets.

As Franks Cousin mentions, a lot depends on what your primary concern is. Relegation I can live with, putting the club at risk I have less enthusiasm for. As such I would prefer another 10m on Astori, rather than the experienced PL pro who has no value even if we still go down.

Edited 7 January, 2013 by Brussels Saint

[Brussels Saint]

7m for a young striker with potential is nothing in comparison to what some ae paying - you are assuming that we spent money on one area INSTEAD of another - when teh reality is more likey we we identified the need to Stengthen in ALL areas, but to date have only SECURED the players we want in some. There is a huge amount of naivety on here amongst those who think we did not sign key players in key positions because we signed strikers or spent 15 mil euros on ramirez... the truth is more likely we did not get who we wanted and would not be forced into panic buying lower spec.

 

In addition, thsoe who think signing players is easy need to have a think. Yes some clubs can do deals quicker where they sling money at it or have a Euro competition in the bag to attract players - others like us, need to find players who will buy into the policy and approach and we also rightly seem to play hardball in negotiations - means it takes longer and appears more complex.

 

There will always be players who have promise but never live up to it and all clubs will make mistakes - even the top sides buy players that never make the grade, but for the likes of Ferguson, everyone in the media seem happy to forget his Forlan, Jordi moments... as I say all clubs and we will not be immune to it either.

 

......yup, agree again. Strange, I was not aware I normally agree with your posts, maybe I have you confused with someone else ;-)

[stevegrant]

......yup, agree again. Strange, I was not aware I normally agree with your posts, maybe I have you confused with someone else ;-)

I think most lack the stamina to last to the end, usually

[Barry Sanchez]

So if we sell everything to stave of bankruptcy how is that good? What squad will get us back into the Premiership? Who will stay? Very few now they have a taste for the top flight, only the crap will remain so how will they get us back up? Its ok though as we are still in the 5 year parameter.........................

[Turkish]

I think most lack the stamina to last to the end, usually

 

[Frank's cousin]

I think most lack the stamina to last to the end, usually

 

Cheeky scamp Granty

[Frank's cousin]

 

Oi! I am very sensitive you know:cry:

[Dig Dig]

7m for a young striker with potential is nothing in comparison to what some ae paying - you are assuming that we spent money on one area INSTEAD of another - when teh reality is more likey we we identified the need to Stengthen in ALL areas, but to date have only SECURED the players we want in some. There is a huge amount of naivety on here amongst those who think we did not sign key players in key positions because we signed strikers or spent 15 mil euros on ramirez... the truth is more likely we did not get who we wanted and would not be forced into panic buying lower spec.

 

In addition, thsoe who think signing players is easy need to have a think. Yes some clubs can do deals quicker where they sling money at it or have a Euro competition in the bag to attract players - others like us, need to find players who will buy into the policy and approach and we also rightly seem to play hardball in negotiations - means it takes longer and appears more complex.

 

There will always be players who have promise but never live up to it and all clubs will make mistakes - even the top sides buy players that never make the grade, but for the likes of Ferguson, everyone in the media seem happy to forget his Forlan, Jordi moments... as I say all clubs and we will not be immune to it either.

 

 

Good post which will fall on too many blind eyes and deaf ears.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

Mayuka, Rodriguez, Boruc, Lee, the list could go on of overpriced crap.

Has Ramirez over the games we have seen him been actually worth it?

Yoshida?

 

Clyne is a good player who I rate but its still questionable whether he should be there every game.

Our squad has Fox,Hooiveld, Guly and De Ridder in it, enough said.

 

Gaston is showing he is worth it, yes.

Yoshi was what, £2-3m? Not bad really.

Lee was a free transfer, hardly seen enough of him to have a fair say. Got a nasty injury which may ruin things for him.

Boruc was also free, but yeah his wages probs aren't cheap.

Rodriguez is a decent player, and always looks lively. It's obviously going to be hard when we play one striker - especially given the outcry every time Lambert starts on the bench or is subbed - which sometimes is needed, against some teams his lack of mobility will just render him useless.

I've not seen enough of Mayuka to make any fair comments on him, but yeah granted, does seem an odd one.

[Barry Sanchez]

When was the last time we bought an accomplished Premiership player?

[KelvinsRightGlove]

When was the last time we bought an accomplished Premiership player?

 

Depends what you count as accomplished?

 

I'd say Steven Davis, but they may not fit your criteria.

[Colinjb]

When was the last time we bought an accomplished Premiership player?

 

Far too subjective a question.

[Barry Sanchez]

No its a valid question, Crouch?

[Colinjb]

No its a valid question, Crouch?

 

Ok then. After Crouch.

 

Jason Euell.

 

Remember we also signed Andrei Kanchelskis once. Rahdi Jaidi was an accomplished Premier League player, arguably Graeme Murty after his time at Reading, captained a team that finished comfortably in the top half one year.

Edited 7 January, 2013 by Colinjb

[Saint Garrett]

Yes, because accomplished players are always the right direction...just look at QPR.

[Colinjb]

Yes, because accomplished players are always the right direction...just look at QPR.

 

Exactly.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

No its a valid question, Crouch?

 

He was hardly accomplished at Premiership level, in fact he had actually played a lot less Premiership games than Davis had when we signed him.

[Dig Dig]

We should have signed Shaun Wright-Phillips and Glenn Whelan on 1st Jan. Both BS and AS would be happy then.

[Colinjb]

He was hardly accomplished at Premiership level, in fact he had actually played a lot less Premiership games than Davis had when we signed him.

 

Easy to forget how vilified he was until he started banging them in during that 5 month period.

[KelvinsRightGlove]

We should have signed Shaun Wright-Phillips and Glenn Whelan on 1st Jan. Both BS and AS would be happy then.

 

Hmmm, yet another thread that descends into the same boring moans.