In our dreams!

[Turkish]

Are you a moderator? No, I didn't think so. So excuse me if I take no notice of your opinions as to what constitutes forum rules. You had better complain to the mods that Adrian's point was sarcastic and we'll let them adjudicate, shall we?

 

There is no need to add anything further to this debate, as it has all been covered before, regardless of whether you yourself consider it a duplicate or a repeated thread. In any event, anybody who attempts to express an opinion that us playing in Europe is a possibility is ridiculed as a fantasist, so what's the point? We should just accept the opinions of those who know better than us, but who is going to tell Cortese that he doesn't know what he's doing and is wasting his time with us?

 

WHat an ironic post as it wasn't that long ago you were ordering people not to quote certain posters you had on ignore (yet bizarely replying to them and joining in with the conversations anyway) and demand the mods deal with threads and posts that you dont like. Which one it is Les? ARe you going to play overlord or leave it to the mods? You seem to want it both ways.

[Frank's cousin]

Oh Christ, dont get Frank started about Germany again! We'll be onto dynamic pricing in a minute!

 

...and what is so wrong with desiring a cultural shift to a less 'want it now' mentality of our academy kids and their parents? Bundesliga is thriving right now and the natural churn (with the obvious exception of the Big M) as a result of clubs being able to bring through and hold on to tehir best academy talent for a few years at least is a major contributor to this. Is is imposssible to bring about any change in our shiedt attitude?

[Turkish]

...and what is so wrong with desiring a cultural shift to a less 'want it now' mentality of our academy kids and their parents? Bundesliga is thriving right now and the natural churn (with the obvious exception of the Big M) as a result of clubs being able to bring through and hold on to tehir best academy talent for a few years at least is a major contributor to this. Is is imposssible to bring about any change in our shiedt attitude?

 

Which clubs are the biggest clubs in Germany Frank?

Edited 4 January, 2013 by Turkish

[Wilko]

Can we go back to League One?

[Frank's cousin]

Which club are the biggest clubs in Germany Frank?

 

I would argue that the cyclic success of clubs like Leverkusen (currently second) (who only had a 22k stadium and got to the CL final on the back of homegrown talent such as Ballack), Weder Bremen, Schalke etc have cyclic success - and are not traditionally the biggest yet all seen CL action - Dortmund has been a financial mess and only recently come through that - but are massive, but also traditionally bring through players. Mainz and Frieburg, currently 5th and 6th. Hamburg, Stuttgart and Wolfsburg all experiencing CL group stage in recent years suggest the churn is far more active than within the prem. To me that is healthy for football... and none of this is built on a spending plan like Chelsea or City...

[Thedelldays]

I would argue that the cyclic success of clubs like Leverkusen (currently second) (who only had a 22k stadium and got to the CL final on the back of homegrown talent such as Ballack)' date=' Weder Bremen, Schalke etc have cyclic success - and are not traditionally the biggest yet all seen CL action - Dortmund has been a financial mess and only recently come through that - but are massive, but also traditionally bring through players. Mainz and Frieburg, currently 5th and 6th and the likes of Hamburg, Stuttgart and Wolfsburg all experiencing CL group stage in recent years suggest the churn is far more active than within the prem. To me that is healthy for football... and none of this is built on a spending plan like chelsea or City...[/quote']

 

 

this is not germany...

[Turkish]

I would argue that the cyclic success of clubs like Leverkusen (currently second) (who only had a 22k stadium and got to the CL final on the back of homegrown talent such as Ballack)' date=' Weder Bremen, Schalke etc have cyclic success - and are not traditionally the biggest yet all seen CL action - Dortmund has been a financial mess and only recently come through that - but are massive, but also traditionally bring through players. Mainz and Frieburg, currently 5th and 6th. Hamburg, Stuttgart and Wolfsburg all experiencing CL group stage in recent years suggest the churn is far more active than within the prem. To me that is healthy for football... and none of this is built on a spending plan like Chelsea or City...[/quote']

 

Convineintly forgetting that the three best supported clubs in Germany, Bayern Munich, Dortmund and Schalke were the ones who qualified for the champions league this season i see.

 

Of course you can always make a case of one offs where a club punches far above its weight and gets into the champions league, it happens. Udinese, Villareal, Everton have all done it in the past from top European leagues. Despite their healthy competition in germany it's still inverably the bigger clubs that are consistantly successful is it not?

[Frank's cousin]

this is not germany...

 

Oh FFS - its about trying to create and environment/culture where we keep teh best youth for a few more years - nothing more. The question raised is whether this is possible or not given our 'want it now' boolox. Without such a shift no one without serious cash will penetrate the top 4 - with it it's possible as has been shown elsewhere.

[Thedelldays]

Oh FFS - its about trying to create and environment/culture where we keep teh best youth for a few more years - nothing more. The question raised is whether this is possible or not given our 'want it now' boolox. Without such a shift no one without serious cash will penetrate the top 4 - with it it's possible as has been shown elsewhere.

who is trying to create this culture...as the big clubs certainly wont any time soon...the fair play rules wont...so its all dead in the water in this country really

[Turkish]

Oh FFS - its about trying to create and environment/culture where we keep teh best youth for a few more years - nothing more. The question raised is whether this is possible or not given our 'want it now' boolox. Without such a shift no one without serious cash will penetrate the top 4 - with it it's possible as has been shown elsewhere.

 

Cant remember too many cultures that were created by boring people about it on a mongboard.

[Frank's cousin]

Convineintly forgetting that the three best supported clubs in Germany, Bayern Munich, Dortmund and Schalke were the ones who qualified for the champions league this season i see.

 

Of course you can always make a case of one offs where a club punches far above its weight and gets into the champions league, it happens. Udinese, Villareal, Everton have all done it in the past from top European leagues. Despite their healthy competition in germany it's still inverably the bigger clubs that are consistantly successful is it not?

 

NOt as consistently as here, and thats the point. It would be the same as here if the big clubs took the best 16 and 17 year olds - they dont, most stay till they are older... although see Spurs have gotten 21 yo Holtby from Schalke according to German press.

[Turkish]

NOt as consistently as here' date=' and thats the point. It would be the same as here if the big clubs took the best 16 and 17 year olds - they dont, most stay till they are older... although see Spurs have gotten 21 yo Holtby from Schalke according to German press.[/quote']

 

Not really. Depsite your insistance that it's so much better over there since the premier league started (i hate doing this as i know football didn't start in 1992, but its a good marker) there have been 5 different winners. In the same period in Germany there have been 6 winners. One more winner in a supposedly fantastically comepetitive division. Hardly compelling evidence that it's so much better in Germany is it.

[Frank's cousin]

Not really. Depsite your insistance that it's so much better over there since the premier league started (i hate doing this as i know football didn't start in 1992, but its a good marker) there have been 5 different winners. In the same period in Germany there have been 6 winners. One more winner in a supposedly fantastically comepetitive division. Hardly compelling evidence that it's so much better in Germany is it.

 

Dont know the numbers but would suspect there have been far greater numbers of different clubs that have made it the CL group stages though, despite only having 3 CL slots for plenty of that time.

 

I am not saying its 'so much better' but maintain the opinion that they have greater churn in clubs within the top 6 than we do here, far greater. and that is in part due to clubs having the 51% fan ownership rule, so no Hans Grosse boolox or Hansi Al Farim types coming in and buying trophies, and in part becuase home grown talent stays those few extra years to make an impact for their home club.... imagine if Bale, Walcott and were only now thinking of moving... with Oxo still here for another couple f seasons...

[Zlavik]

I don't think you understand the topic. How many players have Man Utd, Arsenal, or Spurs bought with money "they don't have"?

 

Have a read of Buctootim's summary of Man Utd's debt, it explains it very well. I don't think you have any idea of the vast sums of revenue they generate each year.

 

Revenue is not the same thing as profit. The debt they have will have to be paid someday.

One thing that I would like to point out, and something that you always can keep in mind when I'm in a debate, is that I'm not saying that I'm right - it's just my current opinion.

My opinion can change and we'll see how wrong or right I am when FPP really gets going.

 

I feel that I have my opinion on the matter and you guys have yours, I can't say who's wrong or right until FPP has started to have an effect.

Until then I'll leave this debate and I wish you all the best!

[Turkish]

Dont know the numbers but would suspect there have been far greater numbers of different clubs that have made it the CL group stages though, despite only having 3 CL slots for plenty of that time.

 

I am not saying its 'so much better' but maintain the opinion that they have greater churn in clubs within the top 6 than we do here, far greater. and that is in part due to clubs having the 51% fan ownership rule, so no Hans Grosse boolox or Hansi Al Farim types coming in and buying trophies, and in part becuase home grown talent stays those few extra years to make an impact for their home club.... imagine if Bale, Walcott and were only now thinking of moving... with Oxo still here for another couple f seasons...

 

I dont disagree that in many ways they've got it right and it's far better for fans in Germany than it is over here. But lets not kid ourselves into thinking its an ultra comeptitive league which anyone can win or qualify for the champions league. You might get the odd smaller club having an incredible season, Everton did it here, Villareal have done it in Spain, they are hardly minnows though are they. The biggest clubs will stay at the top and are the only ones tha will consistantly challenge for trophies, that is how it is regardless of who owns them or if young players stay for an extra season.

[The Kraken]

Dont know the numbers but would suspect there have been far greater numbers of different clubs that have made it the CL group stages though, despite only having 3 CL slots for plenty of that time.

 

I am not saying its 'so much better' but maintain the opinion that they have greater churn in clubs within the top 6 than we do here, far greater. and that is in part due to clubs having the 51% fan ownership rule, so no Hans Grosse boolox or Hansi Al Farim types coming in and buying trophies, and in part becuase home grown talent stays those few extra years to make an impact for their home club.... imagine if Bale, Walcott and were only now thinking of moving... with Oxo still here for another couple f seasons...

 

Actually there's not much in it at all. England have 10 (Leeds, Man United, Blackburn, Newcastle, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Everton, Tottenham, Man City). Germany have 12 (Stuttgart, Werder Bremen, Bayern Munich, Borussia Dortmund, Bayer leverkusen, Kaiserslautern, Hertha Berlin, Hamburg, Munich 1860, Schalke, Wolfsberg, Borussia Monchengladbach).

 

English clubs have enjoyed 4 clubs qualifying in the mid to late 2000s; that said Germany also had a number of years in the late 90s and early 2000s when they had 4 clubs qualify and English clubs had 3.

 

So, all in all, its relatively even.

[Turkish]

Actually there's not much in it at all. England have 10 (Leeds, Man United, Blackburn, Newcastle, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Everton, Tottenham, Man City). Germany have 12 (Stuttgart, Werder Bremen, Bayern Munich, Borussia Dortmund, Bayer leverkusen, Kaiserslautern, Hertha Berlin, Hamburg, Munich 1860, Schalke, Wolfsberg, Borussia Monchengladbach).

 

English clubs have enjoyed 4 clubs qualifying in the 2000s; that said German also had a number of years in the late 90s and early 2000s when they had 4 clubs qualify and English clubs had 3.

 

So, all in all, its relatively even.

 

Oh, that's a shame, Frank will have to come up with something else about Germany now. FFS Krackpipe.

[aintforever]

chelsea are not going to spend hundreds of millions to suddenly be kick out of a competition...they will have very smart and very expensive people working on ways around the system.....no doubt about it..

 

Of course they won't, they are not f*cking stupid.

 

My point was that though there are obvious loopholes in the FFP rules there is no reason why they cannot be enforced. UEFA can have total discretion over who they admit into their competition. If a club flogs a box for £100 million in an obvious attempt to get round the rules they could just say, no thanks, you're not in. Similar to how we found a loophole around the -10 when we went into admin and the FL just said nah.

[Frank's cousin]

Oh, that's a shame, Frank will have to come up with something else about Germany now. FFS Krackpipe.

 

NOt at all...is surprizing, but, would be interesting looking at that to see which clubs qualifued during the years of 3 or 4 slots...those that qualified more than once.... Clubs like Leverkusen, Bremen, etc do well cyclically and on the back of home grown talent - that is the point.

 

Is there any chance of keeping our best kids til 22-23 that is the question?

[Turkish]

NOt at all...is surprizing, but, would be interesting looking at that to see which clubs qualifued during the years of 3 or 4 slots...those that qualified more than once.... Clubs like Leverkusen, Bremen, etc do well cyclically and on the back of home grown talent - that is the point.

 

Is there any chance of keeping our best kids til 22-23 that is the question?

 

Yes i think there is, provided we establish ourselves as a premier league side. You cant blame young players in championship and L1 sides leaving for the premier league. As a midtable premier league side there is a much smaller pool of clubs which can take your best young players, in reality probably only 5 or 6. The very best ones will go, Everton are bigger than us and couldn't keep Rooney, and there is little we can do to stop them. The ones just below that level, not quite international standard will stay though as there .

[Frank's cousin]

Yes i think there is, provided we establish ourselves as a premier league side. You cant blame young players in championship and L1 sides leaving for the premier league. As a midtable premier league side there is a much smaller pool of clubs which can take your best young players, in reality probably only 5 or 6. The very best ones will go, Everton are bigger than us and couldn't keep Rooney, and there is little we can do to stop them. The ones just below that level, not quite international standard will stay though as there .

 

Would add though Turks that its about keeping the very best for those few years - the Rooney's etc as Levekusen managed with Ballack until after that CL final defeat hey was around 22/23 I think when he went to Bayern. Had Rooney stayed at Eveton for anextra 2 or 3 seasone, would that really have done any 'harm' to his career other than to hi bank balance?

[Turkish]

Would add though Turks that its about keeping the very best for those few years - the Rooney's etc as Levekusen managed with Ballack until after that CL final defeat hey was around 22/23 I think when he went to Bayern. Had Rooney stayed at Eveton for anextra 2 or 3 seasone' date=' would that really have done any 'harm' to his career other than to hi bank balance?[/quote']

 

Yes it did, Rooney won a few league titles and the champions league by the age of 23. He'd never have that with Everton.