Why no CBs from the Accademy?

[Saint Garrett]

Because 5'8 blonde lads aren't cloned to play at CB!!

[david in sweden]

I dunno, I think it's just a coincidence. Baird or Willimason didn't turn out too badly, and I don't think Matt Mills is too bad a player either.

 

But the DNA machine at Staplewood seems to be programmed for small, blonde, pacey players at the moment. Until that's changed, I can't see any new CB's on the horizon...!

 

 

These days players are still maturing - even at 21 - only when they've grown a extra couple of inches and put on a stone or so, do they look like a real proposition.

 

(though not Academy)...Aaron Martin moved up from Eastleigh in the Conference South to our first team sqaud and didn't disgrace himself in a dozen or so Championship games, but this loan-out to Palace has done his career prospect some real harm, I still think he has a good future. However, I agree that it takes time to develop a good CB. and people can see there are plenty of mediocre ones around.

 

Both Mills and Crainie looked great at junior level, but the step up to first team (then Prem) level was too much to ask (at that time). Had they stayed after our relegation, they might still have been here.

In the cases of Williamson and to some extent Monk, too....they were all here very young and were released prematurely and needed to battle it out in a lower league in order to kick start their careers.

 

The exception was Chris Baird who " happened " to be with our youth set-up at a time of changing managers, and when he got major injuries. He survived the purge of young players, but had to wait 4 years to make his debut, and then was only 4th/5th choice CB. Only in a major injury crisis did Saints discover just how good he was. Two years later he was sold to Fulham for £3 million.......by then he was almost 23.

 

People talk a bit about Jack Stephens, but still only a teenager.....we'll need to have patience for a few years with him - if he is to be a future talent.

Edited 29 December, 2012 by david in sweden

[Give it to Ron]

Saints policy at younger levels is correct breed good, comfortable ball playing and lads with potential.

Its done us well so far and without it we would of been in the same state as the Skates.

Edited 29 December, 2012 by Give it to Ron
change of thought

[david in sweden]

Id beg to differ, our record over say the last 10 years at reserve an academy levels will show we have always regulary beat the likes of arsenal,chelsea,spurs and other london clubs

 

...indeed we have, BUT at that level players are still developing and many of those who were so good THEN, are only playing in L1 / L2 / Conference nowadays.

 

Let's not argue phrases like " Academy player " or " Youth team"....but more recently we've had Ollie Lancashire, Harlee Dean, Ryan Tafazoli and Jack Saville on the books at various times before being released.

Most of them got a place in L2 / Conference sides, and might make some sort of a living from the game ...but hundereds of others will end up working in a factory or driving a truck for the rest of their life.

 

**absolutely no offence to factory workers or truck drivers who might read this, but how many of these promising teenage talents...never quite made it ?

[Chez]

Centre halves and goalies always seem hard to find and very few in either position have come through the ranks to play League football....you have to go back a long way to find Bob Charles and Tony Godfreywho were keepers in the late 1950's/ early 60's, although Gerry Gurr (late 1960's) looked a promising candidate until his injury problem..since then we've always bought in good goalies.

Although he came to us aged 19, Tim Flowers waited a while until he was able to take up Peter Shilton's place (who on earth would want to be on the bench waiting for him to be dropped?) but he later got his England cap before moving to Blackburn's title-winning side.

Most recently Alan Blainey came as a 16 year old (together with Chris Baird)...but only got a few chances, but still managed to win Save-of-the Season (from Alan Shearer) in that 3-3 home game v. Newcastle.

 

Central defenders too have been few....Colin Waldron was pretty useful in the late 1970's (200+ games), as was Manny Adruszewski (100+ games) and Reuben Agboola (100) in the early 80's.

Mark Whitlock had a couple of good seasons, although John Gittens was very occasional player during his 6 year stay. Frannie Benali actually played no.5 (as it was then) for most of 94/95 season, as did Jason Dodd a bit later on, but both reverted to their famous FB roles after Claus Lundekvam arrived.

 

Sotonist mentioned Martin Crainie and Matt Mills earlier, and both were outstanding in their junior days, but they were thrown in too early and at a time when we were struggling, and never made it with us.

Very few others " came through the ranks " with Saints, although as some of you noted people like Mike Williamson and Ollie Lancashire left without really starting, and had to begin their careers at L1.

 

Ironically, there has never been a shortage of good full backs coming up from the youth sides (I could probably name a dozen in a very short time), but central defenders have never been a strength for SFC.

 

Rather belatedly I recalled Garry Monk, who came aged 16, but spent several years being loaned out all over the place before moving to Swansea in 2004...and has played 200+ games for them, I think.

 

Something extra to look for in the next Academy generation perhaps?

 

Good memory. I forgot all about Mark Whitlock. Not entirely sure you can count Gittens as he didn't come through the ranks, nor was he a nipper when he joined. He was about 21 or 22 when we bought him from a non-league club side.

[Turkish]

Mark Blake played a view games for the first team in the 80s, he was a local lad and a decent centre half although played most of his games at a lower level. Another one like that was Steve Davis, who I quite rated at the time but he left for Burnley after a handful of first team appearances.

[Thedelldays]

Mark Blake played a view games for the first team in the 80s, he was a local lad and a decent centre half although played most of his games at a lower level. Another one like that was Steve Davis, who I quite rated at the time but he left for Burnley after a handful of first team appearances.

was richard hall an academy player..?

[Chez]

was richard hall an academy player..?

signed from Scunny for £200,000

[Turkish]

signed from Scunny for £200,000

 

What a great signing he was as well. Nicholls last one I believe.

[Chez]

What a great signing he was as well. Nicholls last one I believe.

 

funnily enough it was the previously mentioned Jon Gittens that was Nicholl's last signing. I remember his first game back at the Dell marking Ian Rush completely out of the game. Not many did that around that time.

[david in sweden]

Good memory. I forgot all about Mark Whitlock. Not entirely sure you can count Gittens as he didn't come through the ranks, nor was he a nipper when he joined.

He was about 21 or 22 when we bought him from a non-league club side.

 

 

yes you're correct, it just seemed as though he was around for along time without making any real impact...

[Turkish]

funnily enough it was the previously mentioned Jon Gittens that was Nicholl's last signing. I remember his first game back at the Dell marking Ian Rush completely out of the game. Not many did that around that time.

 

Nicholl had a good eye for a centre half didn't he. Osman, Moore, Ruddock, Hall, top defenders signed for a very small a,ount of money and that Osman apart not many had heard of when they joined us. Guess that is what comes from a manager knowing the position well.

[The Kraken]

funnily enough it was the previously mentioned Jon Gittens that was Nicholl's last signing. I remember his first game back at the Dell marking Ian Rush completely out of the game. Not many did that around that time.

 

I remember Jon Gittens being the SFC representative in a 100m sprint challenge they started doing on TV at the time. He did alright.

[VectisSaint]

Nicholl had a good eye for a centre half didn't he. Osman, Moore, Ruddock, Hall, top defenders signed for a very small a,ount of money and that Osman apart not many had heard of when they joined us. Guess that is what comes from a manager knowing the position well.

True, much like Adkins has a great eye for a keeper.

[Turkish]

True, much like Adkins has a great eye for a keeper.

 

Why are you trolling my posts? It's people like you who are ruining this board. It's no wonder the good posters don't bother anymore!

[david in sweden]

back to the original question on the OP ....why no CBs from the Academy....?.

 

I think we saw from yesterdays fixture that really effective CB's (like Stoke's) are; big, tough and ugly ....with a scowl that can stop an express train at 20 paces.....You don't see that sort of lad in the Academy.

 

Of those we've listed above; Mills, Williamson and Monk have developed into clones of " the Hulk ", but it's taken 6 or 7 years to come that far, and it takes a lot of patience to keep someone that long without them becoming a liability to the club or themselves by not playing regularly.

[supersonic]

How many of the famed Barca team are ACTUALLY academy graduates ? I.e actually trained there and not bought at 16-18 ?

 

95% of them. Valdes/Pique/Puyol/Iniesta/Xavi/Messi were all there from the ages of 10/8/7/11/8/13 respectively.

 

Most Barca players at 16-18 are sold on (mainly to Arsenal) then re-signed when they are in their early 20's

[Smirking_Saint]

95% of them. Valdes/Pique/Puyol/Iniesta/Xavi/Messi were all there from the ages of 10/8/7/11/8/13 respectively.

 

Most Barca players at 16-18 are sold on (mainly to Arsenal) then re-signed when they are in their early 20's

 

That is very impressive TBH

[supersonic]

That is very impressive TBH

 

It is indeed, at one point the other day against Zaragoza (I think?) they had 11 players on the pitch which had come from their academy

 

Valdes

Montoya

Puyol

Pique

Alba

Xavi

Iniesta

Busquets

Pedro

Messi

Fabregas

[david in sweden]

95% of them. Valdes/Pique/Puyol/Iniesta/Xavi/Messi were all there from the ages of 10/8/7/11/8/13 respectively.

 

Most Barca players at 16-18 are sold on (mainly to Arsenal) then re-signed when they are in their early 20's

 

 

obviously Messi was a late developer. There's still hope for the pre-teens then ?

[LostBoys]

I watched the U18s game against Everton who were crap but well organised and it seemed their players were about a foot taller than ours and probably older.

[up and away]

Anyone else noticed this? It seems quite strange given the number of players who've come through and made an impact on our team, not to mention those who've left and made a name for themselves elsewhere. I can't think of one decent CB we've brought through in the last 20 years or so. There was Lancashire a couple of years ago but he was awful and ended up at Aldershot.

 

Maybe our scouting network is more interested in attacking players who generally seem to sell for more money.

 

When George Prost came to the club he was influential in the type of player we accepted. The scouts had to look beyond size for the natural talent the lads had. This puts a natural bias against any big lad who wins more than his share of headers and hoof it from stand to stand but it did mean we were left with a youth team that could pass the ball from any position and football ourselves out of any trouble. Prost installed a code of conduct on how the players behave and any interaction within football. This left an Academy where bullying was eradicated by type and in some ways represented more of a finishing school for young gentlemen who's objective was to learn, learn, learn from an exceptional set up and mentor. Everything was perfect for this breeding ground to be successful and when you ploughed in such targeted finance for the right player it came as no surprise. I don't believe there is that great a change in the philosophy today even though Prost has long gone.

 

In Best we had the most skilful player, In Dyer the quickest over 5 yards and in Theo, speed you could never fully grasp. A lot developed the same running style which was obvious to anyone who first saw Surman and Theo in the same first team, it was if they ran over the top of water rather than through it. Bale stands clearly out ahead of all of them with an unbelievable upper and lower body strength and a running style where he just gradually increases his length of pace the defender is just unaware how he just skated by him. A balance so good he can pick his shot off when he wants and the ability to get / make space around a goalie as he wishes, all done at top speed. He is a monster physically when you tote up all his physical attributes.

[melmacian_saint]

Monk never looked like a talent IMO.

 

It was match and age experience that really earnt him a shot a PL football. Also being at a club from the start of its rise helped a lot.

[Restark19]

obviously Messi was a late developer. There's still hope for the pre-teens then ?

 

i believe they had to give him growth hormones as he was considered way to small and weak to make it as a pro footballer.

 

As for the OP - it's a strange one, possibly that, as i believe has been stated, the scouts look for a certain type of player - i.e. skilful/technically gifted, rather than big and strong - which is what good CBs seem to be

[St_Tel49]

could get worse' date=' the FA plans to improve youth football may lead to defenders and tough mid field players being a rare commodity[/quote']

 

What's wrong with defenders and mid-fielders - tough or otherwise - learning to be good on the ball?

[david in sweden]

i believe they had to give him growth hormones as he was considered way to small and weak to make it as a pro footballer.

 

There are quite a few others who couldn't make it no matter how much hormones they got fed........Has a bit to do with talent, I think.

[Ivan Katalinic's 'tache]

Good to see one of our academy CBs has continued to have a career in the lower leagues:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/36350124

[Saint Charlie]

On the whole topic: its hard to find players who are able to marry the attributes of being strong and mobile enough for PL football whilst a good enough defender and also capable on the ball.

 

Facing some of the best attackers around its probably the toughest position for a young player to break into.

 

Stephens, Turnbull and McCarthy are decent players but you need to be more than decent for regular PL games.

 

Alfie Jones could break the mould, he looks very promising and composed. Still think Stephens could get some games for us, maybe in Europe and is versatile too.

[SuperSAINT]

I don't think this problem is just a problem at Saints. Seems to be spread all over - Nobody seems to be producing them.

[Nordic Saint]

Saints' current Young Player of the Year, Alfie Jones, is a centre back, and probably the best prospect currently in our Academy.

[Nordic Saint]

Although Jones is good, Middlesbrough's Acadamy has probably produced the best 2 young centre backs in the last year: Ben Gibson and Dael Fry. Either one of them could well play for England in the future. Pity we couldn't have got one of them in exchange for Ramirez.

[Matthew Le God]

Although Jones is good, Middlesbrough's Acadamy has probably produced the best 2 young centre backs in the last year: Ben Gibson and Dael Fry. Either one of them could well play for England in the future. Pity we couldn't have got one of them in exchange for Ramirez.

 

Why are you comparing 18 year old Alfie Jones with 23 year old Ben Gibson? They are both at very different stages of their career.

[Professor]

Jack Stephens is the oddity for me. Made an early break through at Plymouth, I think at FB, and came to Southampton when he was 17. After converting to CB, has been on the fringe of the first team but regularly out on loan. Good enough to represent England at the various young age groups and now in the England u-21 starting line-up but failed to make an impression in his most recent loan at Middlesbrough. He was on a contract to April 2017 but I don't know if that has been extended. Jack is now 22 years old so if he hasn't made the grade yet to play in the Prem this season, maybe he will have to head off lower down the leagues but for an England u-21 player that just looks odd.

[VectisSaint]

Jack Stephens is the oddity for me. Made an early break through at Plymouth, I think at FB, and came to Southampton when he was 17. After converting to CB, has been on the fringe of the first team but regularly out on loan. Good enough to represent England at the various young age groups and now in the England u-21 starting line-up but failed to make an impression in his most recent loan at Middlesbrough. He was on a contract to April 2017 but I don't know if that has been extended. Jack is now 22 years old so if he hasn't made the grade yet to play in the Prem this season, maybe he will have to head off lower down the leagues but for an England u-21 player that just looks odd.

Jack failed to make an impression at Boro because they already had 2 good CBs (see above post, Gibson and Ayala?), they didn't actually need Jack, and hence he got very little game time, thus his loan was cancelled. Subsequently been on loan with Coventry and done well. As he is no longer u-21 expect to see him in the first team squad this season, trouble is he won't get many opportunities with Jose and VvD with Yoshi and Gardos as backup. Unless Ronald begins to trust in our youth then its difficult to see how Jack will break through, really not convinced he is not as good as Florin (no offence to Florin). Another year of loans, perhaps in the Championship again, although in my view we might be better loaning to Spain or Holland to develop his footballing skills. Jordan Turnbull will prsumably play another (3rd) season on loan and then he will have the same problem breaking through.

[Saint IQ]

Centre back is the hardest position to break into in the Premier League just in front of holding midfield and GK, mistakes are magnified and far more costly that you need to be a ready made brilliant defender at 21 and basically can you name one young centre back playing that position regularly in the whole division apart from Stones? And he's probably made more mistakes than any this season.

 

Looking back there was Terry, Ferdinand, Campbell and King breaking through quite young but its even rarer these days and they turned out to be some of the best centre backs of their generation.

Edited 24 May, 2016 by Saint IQ

[Saint IQ]

Jack failed to make an impression at Boro because they already had 2 good CBs (see above post, Gibson and Ayala?), they didn't actually need Jack, and hence he got very little game time, thus his loan was cancelled. Subsequently been on loan with Coventry and done well. As he is no longer u-21 expect to see him in the first team squad this season, trouble is he won't get many opportunities with Jose and VvD with Yoshi and Gardos as backup. Unless Ronald begins to trust in our youth then its difficult to see how Jack will break through, really not convinced he is not as good as Florin (no offence to Florin). Another year of loans, perhaps in the Championship again, although in my view we might be better loaning to Spain or Holland to develop his footballing skills. Jordan Turnbull will prsumably play another (3rd) season on loan and then he will have the same problem breaking through.

 

He actually played against United when they shut them out for 120 minutes at Old Trafford and knocked them out the cup, that would seem really impressive but then you see they scored the 10th most goals and had the 15th most shots in the league this season

[VectisSaint]

He actually played against United when they shut them out for 120 minutes at Old Trafford and knocked them out the cup, that would seem really impressive but then you see they scored the 10th most goals and had the 15th most shots in the league this season

He played in midfield or RB that day I think (Gibson and Ayala played at CB). He played 4 times in the LC for Boro, but only once in the League.

[david in sweden]

Jack failed to make an impression at Boro because they already had 2 good CBs (see above post, Gibson and Ayala?), they didn't actually need Jack, and hence he got very little game time, thus his loan was cancelled. Subsequently been on loan with Coventry and done well. As he is no longer u-21 expect to see him in the first team squad this season, trouble is he won't get many opportunities with Jose and VvD with Yoshi and Gardos as backup. Unless Ronald begins to trust in our youth then its difficult to see how Jack will break through, really not convinced he is not as good as Florin (no offence to Florin). Another year of loans, perhaps in the Championship again, although in my view we might be better loaning to Spain or Holland to develop his footballing skills. Jordan Turnbull will prsumably play another (3rd) season on loan and then he will have the same problem breaking through.

 

I'd go with most of that Vectis. The thing that many people don't realise is that whilst we can expect to see the odd striker, or a few midfielders make the grade getting a good goalie prospect....and especially a CB.... is very difficult.

 

The number of CB's who have come through the ranks in the last ....15 years?.... could just about be counted on your thumbs.......

Chris Baird made it, but only because we had a defensive injury crisis and he was 4th choice CB.at the time. Aside from that ....Who else ?

 

I agree that Jack has developed well, and Jason McCarthy looks a fair prospect too, but both are a long way from challenging the incumbents for a regular place.

[Black Sea Saint]

Stephens played right back for the England U21s the other night. Looked good I thought

[VectisSaint]

I agree that Jack has developed well, and Jason McCarthy looks a fair prospect too, but both are a long way from challenging the incumbents for a regular place.

To answer your question, Matt Mills is probably the only other one. Chris Baird was never really a CB either, but filled in admirably and showed his worth with his great ability to leap.

Anyway, its not about Stephens or Turnbull replacing the incumbents (Fonte and VvD) its about whether they are good enough to replace Gardos and/or Yoshida. That's where they should be, and I don't think there is any huge difference, at least with Florin. But is there the appetite within our management team to trust in a young player? We gave Stephens a contract until 2019, so you would think we should be getting him to step up to what we have seen and expect.

[Saint Fan CaM]

What about Chambers? I know he was mainly RB for us, but he has played CB competently.

[eelpie]

With our fans? Are you really suprised. One mistake which they will make and they will be slaughtered. Reckon they are being protected from us.

 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2

 

With TSW fans especially

[VectisSaint]

What about Chambers? I know he was mainly RB for us, but he has played CB competently.

 

Don't think Chambers ever played CB for us in the PL. He was usually touted as a future MF. Think its a stretch to say he is a succesful CB from our Academy.

[eelpie]

I'd go with most of that Vectis. The thing that many people don't realise is that whilst we can expect to see the odd striker, or a few midfielders make the grade getting a good goalie prospect....and especially a CB.... is very difficult.

 

The number of CB's who have come through the ranks in the last ....15 years?.... could just about be counted on your thumbs.......

Chris Baird made it, but only because we had a defensive injury crisis and he was 4th choice CB.at the time. Aside from that ....Who else ?

 

I agree that Jack has developed well, and Jason McCarthy looks a fair prospect too, but both are a long way from challenging the incumbents for a regular place.

 

The problem that Academy defenders have when given their chance in the first team is that they only need to make a mistake that leads to conceding a goal and impatient TSW warriors will crucify them. Mistakes by midfielders and forwards aren't usually so costly. I think it was Martin Cranie who had a difficult first start in our relegation year. Although he played well he is remembered for a mistake that cost us the game. It's a difficult one, but we need to give defenders time to develop and mature before slagging them.

[Nordic Saint]

Don't think Chambers ever played CB for us in the PL. He was usually touted as a future MF. Think its a stretch to say he is a succesful CB from our Academy.

 

He's played centre back for Arsenal in the Champions League, he's the current England U21 centre back, selected by Gareth Southgate, and he already has 3 full England caps, including one game where he replaced Stones at centre back. That's pretty successful for a youngster, who's only just turned 21. But, you are right, he more often plays right-back and he alternated with Clyne at right-back for us, and also took his starting place in one England game. To be honest, not many centre backs from our Academy have played for England so he is fairly special.

 

But, the fact he gets played in 2 positions may hinder his progress and like our other youngsters who've been sold to Arsenal, his progress seems to have stalled. There were media reports that Koeman tried to bring him back here on loan last season.

[Junior Mullet]

Centre back is the hardest position to break into in the Premier League just in front of holding midfield and GK, mistakes are magnified and far more costly that you need to be a ready made brilliant defender at 21 and basically can you name one young centre back playing that position regularly in the whole division apart from Stones? And he's probably made more mistakes than any this season.

 

Looking back there was Terry, Ferdinand, Campbell and King breaking through quite young but its even rarer these days and they turned out to be some of the best centre backs of their generation.

 

And look at the season Stones has had. Massively under the microscope at the start of the season and built up to epic proportions. Has looked shaky most of the season.

[The9]

I don't think this problem is just a problem at Saints. Seems to be spread all over - Nobody seems to be producing them.

 

Why would teams bother to produce centre backs when any decent centre backs they produce will be better used elsewhere on the pitch? Huth and Morgan have shown how far you can get with limited footballing ability this season in that position. The problem isn't that we don't produce CBs, it's that we produce footballers who are better at the more difficult stuff and don't end up being CBs.

[david in sweden]

The problem that Academy defenders have when given their chance in the first team is that they only need to make a mistake that leads to conceding a goal and impatient TSW warriors will crucify them. Mistakes by midfielders and forwards aren't usually so costly.

I think it was Martin Cranie who had a difficult first start in our relegation year. Although he played well he is remembered for a mistake that cost us the game.

It's a difficult one, but we need to give defenders time to develop and mature before slagging them.

 

Agree totally, but in hindsight... Cranie never quite made the grade, although things might have been different had he stayed a bit longer.

 

An impatient 22/23 year old still needs time, but if he ends up playing Championship / L1 level.... we'd never know.

It took 5-6 seasons for Chris Baird to get his chance, and in the end we sold him when desperate for cash. Yet he was still in the line-up for N.I. along with Davis (last night).

Matt Mills moved on but never quite established himself in the top tier....although one or two others have made a career at lower levels.

Edited 28 May, 2016 by david in sweden

[eelpie]

These days players are still maturing - even at 21 - only when they've grown a extra couple of inches and put on a stone or so, do they look like a real proposition.

 

(though not Academy)...Aaron Martin moved up from Eastleigh in the Conference South to our first team sqaud and didn't disgrace himself in a dozen or so Championship games, but this loan-out to Palace has done his career prospect some real harm, I still think he has a good future. However, I agree that it takes time to develop a good CB. and people can see there are plenty of mediocre ones around.

 

Both Mills and Crainie looked great at junior level, but the step up to first team (then Prem) level was too much to ask (at that time). Had they stayed after our relegation, they might still have been here.

In the cases of Williamson and to some extent Monk, too....they were all here very young and were released prematurely and needed to battle it out in a lower league in order to kick start their careers.

 

 

The exception was Chris Baird who " happened " to be with our youth set-up at a time of changing managers, and when he got major injuries. He survived the purge of young players, but had to wait 4 years to make his debut, and then was only 4th/5th choice CB. Only in a major injury crisis did Saints discover just how good he was. Two years later he was sold to Fulham for £3 million.......by then he was almost 23.

 

People talk a bit about Jack Stephens, but still only a teenager.....we'll need to have patience for a few years with him - if he is to be a future talent.

 

Well said. Take note o yea of little faith in our youth

[eelpie]

And look at the season Stones has had. Massively under the microscope at the start of the season and built up to epic proportions. Has looked shaky most of the season.

 

 

But showing signs against Oz that he is coming through that difficult spell. Promising work in progress.