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So far has Ramirez been good value @14 million?


Mr X

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Quite funny that when he's not amazing he's a 14/15m player, but when he's fantastic he only cost 11m. Same happens with j-rod. Makes me laugh

 

Ah, the world of a football fan. The same Jay Rod who we should have played yesterday, is the same Jay Rod from a few weeks back who shouldn't be in the side and we need the pace of Mayuka. Go figure.

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Ah, the world of a football fan. The same Jay Rod who we should have played yesterday, is the same Jay Rod from a few weeks back who shouldn't be in the side and we need the pace of Mayuka. Go figure.

 

Was there anyone clamouring for Mayuka to be played up front? Genuine question, I don't know. I'd have potentially made a case for him to play yesterday but not up front, I don't believe 442 actually works for us.

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Was there anyone clamouring for Mayuka to be played up front? Genuine question, I don't know. I'd have potentially made a case for him to play yesterday but not up front, I don't believe 442 actually works for us.

 

Oh there have been, for the past few weeks - this isn't from here, but the general mood of people around me. A few weeks ago it was Jay Rod is rubbish, waste of money, we need Mayuka up there, he will fix all.

 

If only football was that easy.

 

Personally, when we bought Mayuka I believed it was on the understanding he could also play as a RW....but he doesn't look like a winger to me in the games I've seen him. He's clearly taking some time to adapt, and he's off for a few weeks shortly anyway, so we do need to look at our wide attacking options in January as a priority.

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Oh there have been, for the past few weeks - this isn't from here, but the general mood of people around me. A few weeks ago it was Jay Rod is rubbish, waste of money, we need Mayuka up there, he will fix all.

 

If only football was that easy.

 

Personally, when we bought Mayuka I believed it was on the understanding he could also play as a RW....but he doesn't look like a winger to me in the games I've seen him. He's clearly taking some time to adapt, and he's off for a few weeks shortly anyway, so we do need to look at our wide attacking options in January as a priority.

After yesterday's game I'm genuinely at a loss as to what we expect Mayuka to do for us. As I say, I really don't like 442 and it seems we've only really played it in times of desperation. Its rarely been used as a first choice line-up, more when we have to adapt to injuries. Yesterday was a case of that. You're right that Mayuka was bought as a striker more than a winger. Unfortunately I think using him as such limited the effectiveness of Ramirez, just as it did when he was out wide against Reading. It was also noticeable that Schneiderlin was pretty poor in a central midfield of 2; thankfully Jack Cork had yet another solid game in there, but it was no surprise to see Morgan replaced.

 

We definitely need to look at our options out wide in January; especially if the rumours that Lallana is out for 10 weeks have any substance to them. Yesterday showed we don't have too many systems to cope with the loss of Lallana on the left (althought I'd much rather we'd have kept the 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 whatever with Gaston in his normal role, Morgan and Cork together, Puncheon on the right and either Mayuka or Guly on the left).

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I don't think anyone is slagging him off. But today was his worst performance for us so far IMO. And from what I've seen of him (which has been very good at times) I don't think he's shown that he's worth anywhere near £12M. Not yet. A bit like Rodriguez hasn't shown he's worth the £7M we spent on him. Both Rodriguez and Ramirez may well prove btheir worth in the future; but nearly £20M spent on future talent rather than an immediate massive impact is looking more and more like a questionable venture.

 

exactly plus the fact that if we are indeed heading back to the championship neither j rod or Ramirez are going to stay and currently I can't see us getting more than five million back for Ramirez I can't see any premiership clubs showing an interest on current form and j rod is best suited to the championship

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Was there anyone clamouring for Mayuka to be played up front? Genuine question, I don't know. I'd have potentially made a case for him to play yesterday but not up front, I don't believe 442 actually works for us.

 

It don't work well for anyone now really in the premier league, it's 433/451 or 4231 they all counter the 442 formation we should always stick what we're good at and thats the 4231 formation we were using when we were getting points and playing well. Sod jrod + lambo upfront one of them or nothing in fact even lambo has being found out so we probably need a change upfront now.

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I think it was the wrong game to play Mayuka and thought that immediately I heard the teamsheet. In view of the conditions, we had to play long ball and he is NOT a target man. This was one game that would have - and utlimately did - suit Guly.

I'd give him another game when the spring comes. Crazy.

Agree that we have spend silly money on few players that haven't yet justified the expenditure. I think we all agree Ramirez was shocking yesterday, but generally he has looked better than our average.

Edited by the saint in winchester
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one way of looking at is Steven fletcher was there best player yesterday and cost the same amount as rameriz And is on nine goals this season I know who I'd rather have at the moment

 

How can you even attempt to compare them? 2 different players, 2 different ages, 2 completely different positions, 2 completely different roles in the side. 1 is a goal scorer and 1 is a creative midfield player.

 

It's a non-comparison.

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How can you even attempt to compare them? 2 different players, 2 different ages, 2 completely different positions, 2 completely different roles in the side. 1 is a goal scorer and 1 is a creative midfield player.

 

It's a non-comparison.

 

true but can you tell me that anyone who signs a 14 million pound creative player doesn't expect them to contribute a few goals? I know that's not solely what they should be judged on but it's what sfc would have wanted surely? Plus he hasn't even been assisting lately

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Not an attack the guy obviously is a talented footballer but so far it's only been glimpses of talent lots of showboating but gives the ball away far too often!

Can you see him going on a goal run? So far I can't and can't help feeling we paid way over the odds. Maybe he is one for the future but is that what we need now?

 

Not a good question to ask when we're not even halfway through the season ...and that he didn't start until after game 4 ... and has missed 3 or 4 of those games in between.

 

No-one player can totally change a side single-handed, especially one so new in the Prem. YES ..he has talent and for one so young- it's very encouraging.

I can't see him on a " goal-run" any more than I can see Lambert, or Puncheon doing so ...not in the Prem. He has scored a couple but as a creative midfielder he doesn't have a huge goal tally anyway.

Should we criticise Lambert because he's only scored ONCE in the last 5 games ? ------NO!

 

If Ramirez turns out to be half as good as we have seen him - at his best, then I think £12 million will seem like a " steal " (in 2-3 years time).

 

He's in the same generation as half the current side, and more talented than some of his team mates. We are building a new side, and survival in the top priority, and after watching a poor game played in torrential rain in late December, I don't think we should try to analyse / criticise anyone on that performance. Wait till the end of the season...and ask the question again then.

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He didn;t jave a good game at the weekend, especially in the 2nd half, but there is no doubting his ability, and I certainly think he is a better buy than stewart Downing or Jordan Henderson for similar money.

 

It can take time to adjust to a new league. Benzema looked like a fishup a tree in his first season at Real Madrid but I don't think they would sell him now.

 

Also, I have seen MLT have some stinkers in the past. Still the best player ever to wear the shirt.

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Not an attack the guy obviously is a talented footballer but so far it's only been glimpses of talent lots of showboating but gives the ball away far too often! Can you see him going on a goal run? So far I can't and can't help feeling we paid way over the odds. Maybe he is one for the future but is that what we need now?

 

 

I can't believe that this thread is still going.....surely we've all accepted that the relative cost (fee) of a player cannot necessarily be rated against his ability / potential.

 

Historically, there are dozens of " high cost moves " between different clubs that have proved fruitless /worthless but it's all down many factors surrounding clubs' finanaces / are they buying /selling etc.

IF a club has a " sought-after " player, they can hold out for a big fee...Torres at Liverpool, Carroll at Newcastle are prime examples, they don't always fit in their new environment, and just look " ordinary ".

It's not the player's fault, but the club Chairmen who throw money at the deal..and not always the players' fault, plus the fact that it takes time for many players to adjust to the Prem. level

Clubs who have good financial backing can buy almost whoever they want ...Chelsea / Man.City /Man.Utd..whereas others ..e.g. Swansea / Norwich are often heavily cash-strapped and forced to buy cheap.

 

Because Saints haven't been in the Prem. for 7 years, we had an extremely low transfer record before that (dating back 11 years)...some people seem to think that £12 million is a lot of money.

I don't have stats. at my finger-tips, but I'd guess that half of the present Prem. clubs have a club record fee at that level, or higher..and probably one or two of those relegated in recent years.

so that this isn't such a "big fee " in the overall pattern of life in the Prem. (I wonder what was Pompey's club record fee from their Prem. days ....anyone ?)

 

Ramirez has started only 9 of our 17 Prem. games. Few can doubt his skill or ability - even if he isn't MOM every week. TBH .....I'd find it difficult to pick a Saints MOM from the Sunderland game....!.

It's totally illogical to run a thread like this on a player coming into a poor side and having played so few games. Better to make a judgement ..(if that's what you want to do) ....at the end of the season.

 

I think Cortese got it right and Gaston will become a great player in time..... and even if it doesn't work out for him, I think we'd re-coup the fee with any eventual sale.

Edited by david in sweden
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Potential world class player, will sell him to a top 4 side for £20m+ in 18 Months after the 2014 WC imo. I went over and watched him last season against Juve, he stood out above any other player and kept tabs on him since. His vision is unreal, on another level to our players who will pick things up in time, he takes players on and will lose the ball now and again, he will also try and thread a through ball through tight angles which will lead to interceptions. So what? Can't have 11 Corks passing sideways, we need creativity and he will provide it. Also those suggesting he won't handle the pace of the Prem don't know what sort of player his is and his background. He is far stronger than people realise and was known for picking up a lot of bookings in Serie A for his ability to get stuck in and chase the game, that will not be a problem.

 

Unfortunately we have a high percentage of weapons that don't understand football in our support that will get on his back when every thing he tries doesn't come off. Had a bad game against Sunderland, so did Rooney against Newcastle. Chill out, he is clearly our most talented player (only a moron wouldn't recognise that) and soon the others will step up and allow his vision to pay off.

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Unfortunately we have a high percentage of weapons that don't understand football in our support that will get on his back when every thing he tries doesn't come off. Had a bad game yesterday, so did Rooney against Newcastle. Chill out, he is clearly our most talented player (only a moron wouldn't recognise that) and soon the others will step up and allow his vision to pay off.

well, a potential world class player could still make a difference more than he has.......to be honest

 

oh, bit patronising about not understanding football...because he was good in italy, does not mean he will be good in England...remember hearing phil vickery claiming he would be surprised if ramirez lived up to that price tag in England...

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well, a potential world class player could still make a difference more than he has.......to be honest

 

oh, bit patronising about not understanding football...because he was good in italy, does not mean he will be good in England...remember hearing phil vickery claiming he would be surprised if ramirez lived up to that price tag in England...

 

What would an ex Rugby player know about how a Uruguyan playing in Italys ability to play in England?

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Potential world class player, will sell him to a top 4 side for £20m+ in 18 Months after the 2014 WC imo. I went over and watched him last season against Juve, he stood out above any other player and kept tabs on him since. His vision is unreal, on another level to our players who will pick things up in time, he takes players on and will lose the ball now and again, he will also try and thread a through ball through tight angles which will lead to interceptions. So what? Can't have 11 Corks passing sideways, we need creativity and he will provide it. Also those suggesting he won't handle the pace of the Prem don't know what sort of player his is and his background. He is far stronger than people realise and was known for picking up a lot of bookings in Serie A for his ability to get stuck in and chase the game, that will not be a problem.

 

Unfortunately we have a high percentage of weapons that don't understand football in our support that will get on his back when every thing he tries doesn't come off. Had a bad game against Sunderland, so did Rooney against Newcastle. Chill out, he is clearly our most talented player (only a moron wouldn't recognise that) and soon the others will step up and allow his vision to pay off.

 

Martinez was on goals on Sunday and obviously rates Gaston very highly.....

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He looks to have lots of potential and promise but he needs to start converting that to something tangible soon.

Shaun Wright Phillips looked amazing as a kid with amazing potential BUT........

 

Maybe we need to play a striker with pace and vision that would compliment GR's style to bring the best out of him...

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Adkins is telling blatant porkies on Solent at the moment then.

 

May be been just those 1 or 2 games he played through the middle...but I remember making an effort to watch him in the 2 games just after he'd signed for us. And he was in the middle in those games.

 

He may have played on the left since though, no idea. Still think he's a natural number 10 though, that's where you get the best from him. Any other position and it's a bit square peggy, especially as he's still adapting to this league.

 

We need to address those wide area's in January ASAP.

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May be been just those 1 or 2 games he played through the middle...but I remember making an effort to watch him in the 2 games just after he'd signed for us. And he was in the middle in those games.

 

He may have played on the left since though, no idea. Still think he's a natural number 10 though, that's where you get the best from him. Any other position and it's a bit square peggy, especially as he's still adapting to this league.

 

We need to address those wide area's in January ASAP.

 

Gaston showed that he has a different level of technical ability today. 2 great passes second half. He played well today.

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May be been just those 1 or 2 games he played through the middle...but I remember making an effort to watch him in the 2 games just after he'd signed for us. And he was in the middle in those games.

 

He may have played on the left since though, no idea. Still think he's a natural number 10 though, that's where you get the best from him. Any other position and it's a bit square peggy, especially as he's still adapting to this league.

 

We need to address those wide area's in January ASAP.

One thing seems certain - he doesn't seem to perform for us when stuck wide left.
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It's always dangerous to post on threads like this because the future is not ours to see and to be honest 'none knows' how successful this transfer will prove to be over time. But let's throw caution to the winds for once and give Madam Fortune her hostage anyway ...

 

Gaston is clearly a technically gifted footballer and there is no suggestion that we have been sold a pup. But (at this time) it would seem that those who were claiming that we had gotten our hands on one of the very best young prospects in European football are guilty of hyperbole. From what I've seen so far Gaston Ramirez appears to be on a similar level to Adam Lallana, and had he cost us something like £8m/£10m then that would have been a reasonable piece of business. We may have paid well over the odds methinks.

 

To my mind a true £14m player should be so ferking good he can almost win a game for you on his own. To be frank I'm just not seeing that yet.

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It's always dangerous to post on threads like this because the future is not ours to see and to be honest 'none knows' how successful this transfer will prove to be over time. But let's throw caution to the winds for once and give Madam Fortune her hostage anyway ...

 

Gaston is clearly a technically gifted footballer and there is no suggestion that we have been sold a pup. But (at this time) it would seem that those who were claiming that we had gotten our hands on one of the very best young prospects in European football are guilty of hyperbole. From what I've seen so far Gaston Ramirez appears to be on a similar level to Adam Lallana, and had he cost us something like £8m/£10m then that would have been a reasonable piece of business. We may have paid well over the odds methinks.

 

To my mind a true £14m player should be so ferking good he can almost win a game for you on his own. To be frank I'm just not seeing that yet.

 

I dunno, these days that's probably a 30-40m player. A 14m outlay in the PL isn't a huge deal if we're honest, not really. It is for us, and I think we've got a talented player for it, but if he was the sort of player who could win games on his own at the moment he wouldn't be here. He has the potential to do so, but at the moment he's still growing.

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I dunno, these days that's probably a 30-40m player. A 14m outlay in the PL isn't a huge deal if we're honest, not really. It is for us, and I think we've got a talented player for it, but if he was the sort of player who could win games on his own at the moment he wouldn't be here. He has the potential to do so, but at the moment he's still growing.

 

I really don't think you have to spend £30m for sign a top quality player - not if you're clever. Swansea for instance paid £2m for Michu - who got better value us or them?

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I dunno, these days that's probably a 30-40m player. A 14m outlay in the PL isn't a huge deal if we're honest, not really. It is for us, and I think we've got a talented player for it, but if he was the sort of player who could win games on his own at the moment he wouldn't be here. He has the potential to do so, but at the moment he's still growing.

 

He was 12m. Similar to Ruiz at Fulham or Crouch or Jarvis.

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I really don't think you have to spend £30m for sign a top quality player - not if you're clever. Swansea for instance paid £2m for Michu - who got better value us or them?

 

They got better value of course but Michu is the biggest bargain of the last few years so nobody can really compare to him.

 

How about Jarvis, or Ruiz.

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Wide or middle not a great deal of difference really...... Is affecting the outcome of games in our favour - no not really.... Still flatters to deceive. Doesn't retain the ball like AL....doesnt assist like AL..... Doesnt score like AL....you just have to say the price tag-on the evidence to date was very inflated. He has some improving to do and quickly....

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They got better value of course but Michu is the biggest bargain of the last few years so nobody can really compare to him.

 

How about Jarvis, or Ruiz.

 

Costly things are sometimes overrated, and some cheap things can be bargains - this is the way of the world. One can only hope than Financial Fair Play regulations will one day see the end of grossly inflated transfer fees for players who aren't really worth it.

 

I'm not holding my breath on that mind ...

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I dunno, these days that's probably a 30-40m player. A 14m outlay in the PL isn't a huge deal if we're honest, not really. It is for us, and I think we've got a talented player for it, but if he was the sort of player who could win games on his own at the moment he wouldn't be here. He has the potential to do so, but at the moment he's still growing.

 

I couldn't be arsed to check any more clubs but Fulham, Stoke and West Brom, three clubs with successive seasons in the Prem...none of them have spent more than us on a single player. Ever. In West Brom's case Gaston was about three times higher than their record signing.

 

I know this forum is a one stop shop for disingenous bullsh it but please lets stop this horsecr ap that a 14m outlay is "no huge deal". Yes it is, maybe not for at most three or four clubs in the division but a huge deal for all others including us. That money does need to deliver for us.

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I couldn't be arsed to check any more clubs but Fulham, Stoke and West Brom, three clubs with successive seasons in the Prem...none of them have spent more than us on a single player. Ever. In West Brom's case Gaston was about three times higher than their record signing.

 

I know this forum is a one stop shop for disingenous bullsh it but please lets stop this horsecr ap that a 14m outlay is "no huge deal". Yes it is, maybe not for at most three or four clubs in the division but a huge deal for all others including us. That money does need to deliver for us.

 

Best player on the pitch today by a mile. Almost our goal of the season from him on top of outrageous vision, excellelent movement, hard work and the ability to draw a foul (don't like it but unfortunately it's an asset). Got a brilliant obvation when subbed at the end. Looked like a world class player today, genuinely excited about watching him play on Saturday, a joy to watch - fair play to whoever bought him!

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Almost our goal of the season from him

Wasn't it just! Lovely little nutmeg and absolutely smashed it! He is a joy to watch and I think worth every penny...a top class player who will sometimes have off games.. But will ultimately have that little bit of extra class to make chances out of nothing and hopefully win us some games along the way.

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Lallana is great but Rmirez has that little bit extra IMO. A little more acceleration to beat a player and a better shot.

 

He is class, is 21 and will have a fantastic career. We need to get him on the ball as much as possible.

 

Also Crouch deal worth 12m which is what I thought Ramirez cost us.

 

The Ramirez deal is going up at a daily rate, especially when arguing that we didn't get value for money.

 

I've only seen 11-12 million been quoted.

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Gaston showed that he has a different level of technical ability today. 2 great passes second half. He played well today.

 

thats strange you think that as according to solent he had a very poor game and wasnt at the races at all

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Lallana is great but Rmirez has that little bit extra IMO. A little more acceleration to beat a player and a better shot.

 

He is class, is 21 and will have a fantastic career. We need to get him on the ball as much as possible.

 

Also Crouch deal worth 12m which is what I thought Ramirez cost us.

Which Crouch deal is worth £12m? Think the last two games have shown Lallana is more of an asset than Ramirez

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Which Crouch deal is worth £12m? Think the last two games have shown Lallana is more of an asset than Ramirez

 

Crouch is costing Stoke up to 12m as someone said they hadnt spent that money on anyone.

 

I think the last two games have been average allround so hard to judge just on those.

 

If you picked Newcastle and Villa at home it would be the opposite opinion.

 

He is 21, learning a new style of football and had had a stop start time due to injury and the personal stuff.

 

Ramirez is the least of our worries.

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