Arctic Convoy Medals

[miserableoldgit]

At last! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20783362 Hopefully they will sort them out sooner rather than later so that these brave veterans (including my Dad) can get them before it`s too late for them.

Edited 19 December, 2012 by miserableoldgit

[Thedelldays]

good news

[Essruu]

I still don't really understand why any forces personnel get medals just for doing their job to the best of their ability.

[pap]

Same thing happens in any business with a decent employer, Essruu.

 

Well, possibly not medals exactly, but gestures to recognise those who go above and beyond are quite common.

[Essruu]

Maybe I should clarify: Those conscripted during the war and forced to do things that they may otherwise not have willingly done are fully deserving. It's the ones who willingly sign up to any of the Armed Forces that shouldn't be given medals just for doing the job they willingly signed up for.

[buctootim]

I still don't really understand why any forces personnel get medals just for doing their job to the best of their ability.

 

I dont know if this medal is for the RN or for the merchant navy, ironically it was usually the volunteer merchant marine who suffered worse casualties but got little recognition. My dad was on three of the convoys on a merchant ship, the first when he was 15. Ive got a picture of him stood on the bow deck with the ship encrusted in foot thick ice behind him.

[Halo Stickman]

The volunteering issue can be quite complicated. My wife’s great uncle, William Savage, volunteered to join the navy in WWII quite possibly to avoid being conscripted into the army.

 

He ended up being posthumously awarded the Victoria Cross for the role he played in the St Nazaire Raid. The commandoes on that raid had all volunteered for it, whereas the RNVR chaps, including Savage, were only told they were on a virtual suicide mission when they were half way across the English Channel.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

I dont know if this medal is for the RN or for the merchant navy, ironically it was usually the volunteer merchant marine who suffered worse casualties but got little recognition. My dad was on three of the convoys on a merchant ship, the first when he was 15. Ive got a picture of him stood on the bow deck with the ship encrusted in foot thick ice behind him.

 

The above is so very true.

 

I read an harrowing account of the infamous PQ17 convoy some time ago. The Admiralty believed this convoy was facing a imminent attack from the mighty German Battleship Tirpitz, so they ordered the joint RN/USN escort screen to leave the convoy behind and sail off to confront the Tirpitz. In the meantime the merchant shipping scattered and were left to make their own way to Murmansk independently.

 

Well as it happens the Tirpitz never came and the (now defenseless) cargo vessels were at the mercy of deadly Luftwaffe bombers and U-Boats. Most of the merchantmen were sunk, in the cold Arctic Ocean when a ship is sunk its crew faces a terrible fate. If you have to jump into the water your survival prospects are measured in minutes, a ghastly end. But even those fortune enough to find themselves in a lifeboat will certainly perish in a matter of hours as exposure takes its icy grip on even the strongest of constitutions.

 

I'll spare you the details but how these poor men suffered - I say 'men' but some were mere cabin boys of 16 - suffice it say I think they deserve every honour and mark of respect we can possibly show them. Remember the men of the Merchant Marine - almost forgotten now but we'd have lost that war without them.

[Saint in Paradise]

Well it is far far too late for my RN father who not only was on the convoys to Russia but also

one to Malta. He was invalided out in 1945 and died in 1991. He had health problems due to

swallowing fuel oil during one rescue after his RN ship had been torpedoed.

[Halo Stickman]

I remember reading 'Convoy is to Scatter' about PQ17 some years ago. The passage about the Naval escorts having to watch the merchant men being left to their fate as they sailed away has remained with me ever since.

 

Coincidentally, the St Nazaire raid was mainly about destroying the dry dock to deny Tirpitz access to the only facility of its kind on the western coast of Europe. A lot of men’s lives were lost by the mere threat of Tirpitz, a ship that spent most of the war in a Norwegian fjord.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

I remember reading 'Convoy is to Scatter' about PQ17 some years ago. The passage about the Naval escorts having to watch the merchant men being left to their fate as they sailed away has remained with me ever since.

 

Coincidentally, the St Nazaire raid was mainly about destroying the dry dock to deny Tirpitz access to the only facility of its kind on the western coast of Europe. A lot of men’s lives were lost by the mere threat of Tirpitz, a ship that spent most of the war in a Norwegian fjord.

 

I wonder if you saw the excellent programme Paddy Ashdown made last week about the 'Cockleshell Heroes'? Just like the St Nazaire raid a almost suicidal mission without anything resembling a decent extraction plan arranged.

 

Just how ruthlessly we fought that war and just what that generation sacrificed for us all never fails to astound me.

[Halo Stickman]

I wonder if you saw the excellent programme Paddy Ashdown made last week about the 'Cockleshell Heroes'? Just like the St Nazaire raid a almost suicidal mission without anything resembling a decent extraction plan arranged.

 

Just how ruthlessly we fought that war and just what that generation sacrificed for us all never fails to astound me.

 

Thanks for flagging that up for me, Charlie; I shall look for it online.

 

Yes, we certainly had to fight that war ruthlessly. I can’t imagine, for instance, what it must have been like for Churchill to have to give the orders to sink the French fleet rather than let it fall into enemy hands; let alone what it must have been like to have to carry out such orders. The strength of conviction those people displayed was just incredible.

[Thedelldays]

Hasler was one of the cockleshell heroes......hence (the old) hasler hospital was named after him

[Thedelldays]

Thanks for flagging that up for me, Charlie; I shall look for it online.

 

Yes, we certainly had to fight that war ruthlessly. I can’t imagine, for instance, what it must have been like for Churchill to have to give the orders to sink the French fleet rather than let it fall into enemy hands; let alone what it must have been like to have to carry out such orders. The strength of conviction those people displayed was just incredible.

indeed...we did what had to be done....you would never ever imagine anything close like that would ever happen today.....the lilly livered liberals would go insane

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Thanks for flagging that up for me, Charlie; I shall look for it online.

 

Yes, we certainly had to fight that war ruthlessly. I can’t imagine, for instance, what it must have been like for Churchill to have to give the orders to sink the French fleet rather than let it fall into enemy hands; let alone what it must have been like to have to carry out such orders. The strength of conviction those people displayed was just incredible.

 

I've just checked and I'm sorry to say that this BBC programme (The Most Courageous Raid of WWII) is not on that Iplayer thingy anymore. No doubt it will be repeated. Like your relative, my old dad served in the RN during WWII. Had his ML been allocated to the St Nazaire operation then I might not be here today - methinks some on here might think that a good thing.

 

Oh and thanks to Delldays too. But I think Haslar hospital has nothing to do with Major Hasler the officer. But what a magnificent bloody hero/nutter he certainly was!

Edited 19 December, 2012 by CHAPEL END CHARLIE

[Halo Stickman]

Like your relative, my old dad served in the RN during WWII. Had his ML been allocated to the St Nazaire operation then I might not be here today

 

I think I’m correct in saying that of the 16 motor launches that took part in the raid only 3 made it back again, so it's odds on you’re probably right!

[Sour Mash]

Maybe I should clarify: Those conscripted during the war and forced to do things that they may otherwise not have willingly done are fully deserving. It's the ones who willingly sign up to any of the Armed Forces that shouldn't be given medals just for doing the job they willingly signed up for.

I see it the opposite way around to you. Those that make that sacrifice out of choice and not just because they have to really stand out as heroes that should be honoured.

[Block 18]

Hasler was one of the cockleshell heroes......hence (the old) hasler hospital was named after him

 

 

Sorry TDD not true

 

 

In 1902 the hospital became known as the Royal Naval Hospital Haslar (abbreviated to RNH Haslar).

 

Check in Wiki for more details

[View From The Top]

I grew up on the stories of the Cockleshell & St Nazaire raids and those men have always been heroes to me.

[Ken Tone]

Haslar was so named centuries ago ..certainly by Nelson's time

 

See 'up the creek without a paddle'

"This phrase may have come from Haslar Creek in Portsmouth harbour, a 'salt' creek (may be origin of alternative 'up a **** creek'). Wounded sailors during Nelson's time, were taken there to be admitted to the Royal Naval Hospital Haslar to die or recover. The ship's moored up in the Solent and the wounded soldiers were transported up Haslar creek by tramline hence 'Up the creek without a paddle'. They were held prisoner so that they would not desert while being treated, and some tried to escape by going through the sewers to the creek (another suggested origin of the alternative 'up a **** creek'). "

 

Note, even in those days, Portsmouth was considered a **** place to be.

 

Back to the OP. My Dad was in the RNVR throughout most of the war, serving mostly on corvettes ...tiny little ships. He spent months on the Artic convoys, and (rarely) told me a few horrendous stories, when I was a kid, about the things he'd seen. Does anyone know if there will be any posthumous award, or will these new medals only go to the very few veterans still alive?

[miserableoldgit]

Haslar was so named centuries ago ..certainly by Nelson's time

 

See 'up the creek without a paddle'

"This phrase may have come from Haslar Creek in Portsmouth harbour, a 'salt' creek (may be origin of alternative 'up a **** creek'). Wounded sailors during Nelson's time, were taken there to be admitted to the Royal Naval Hospital Haslar to die or recover. The ship's moored up in the Solent and the wounded soldiers were transported up Haslar creek by tramline hence 'Up the creek without a paddle'. They were held prisoner so that they would not desert while being treated, and some tried to escape by going through the sewers to the creek (another suggested origin of the alternative 'up a **** creek'). "

 

Note, even in those days, Portsmouth was considered a **** place to be.

 

Back to the OP. My Dad was in the RNVR throughout most of the war, serving mostly on corvettes ...tiny little ships. He spent months on the Artic convoys, and (rarely) told me a few horrendous stories, when I was a kid, about the things he'd seen. Does anyone know if there will be any posthumous award, or will these new medals only go to the very few veterans still alive?

According to todays papers they will be awarded postumously.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2250839/Recognition-Arctic-heroes-finally-given-medals-70-years.html

[Thedelldays]

Haslar was so named centuries ago ..certainly by Nelson's time

 

See 'up the creek without a paddle'

"This phrase may have come from Haslar Creek in Portsmouth harbour, a 'salt' creek (may be origin of alternative 'up a **** creek'). Wounded sailors during Nelson's time, were taken there to be admitted to the Royal Naval Hospital Haslar to die or recover. The ship's moored up in the Solent and the wounded soldiers were transported up Haslar creek by tramline hence 'Up the creek without a paddle'. They were held prisoner so that they would not desert while being treated, and some tried to escape by going through the sewers to the creek (another suggested origin of the alternative 'up a **** creek'). "

 

Note, even in those days, Portsmouth was considered a **** place to be.

 

Back to the OP. My Dad was in the RNVR throughout most of the war, serving mostly on corvettes ...tiny little ships. He spent months on the Artic convoys, and (rarely) told me a few horrendous stories, when I was a kid, about the things he'd seen. Does anyone know if there will be any posthumous award, or will these new medals only go to the very few veterans still alive?

up the creek without a paddle comes from the old naval hospital in plymouth...it is still there but luxury apartments now...

the creek itself is still there and still leads to plymouth sound..

 

if you went "up the creek" you were wounded and sent to the hospital from a ship moored in the sound...if you were not "paddled up" you were dead or dying..so no reason to

 

 

edit...it was from both stonehouse creek (plymouth) and the solent...from the same era..

Edited 20 December, 2012 by Thedelldays

[Ken Tone]

According to todays papers they will be awarded postumously.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2250839/Recognition-Arctic-heroes-finally-given-medals-70-years.html

 

thanks

[Thedelldays]

Sorry TDD not true

 

 

In 1902 the hospital became known as the Royal Naval Hospital Haslar (abbreviated to RNH Haslar).

 

Check in Wiki for more details

ah ok...

Edited 20 December, 2012 by Thedelldays

[OldNick]

I watched the programme about the cockles he'll heroes the other day presented by Paddy Ashdown and he stated Haslar was named after Haslar from the mission. I can only assume that he was wrong. A strange coincidence.

[Thedelldays]

I watched the programme about the cockles he'll heroes the other day presented by Paddy Ashdown and he stated Haslar was named after Haslar from the mission. I can only assume that he was wrong. A strange coincidence.

 

That was what I was led to believe.

 

Matters not I guess