pap Posted 20 December, 2012 Share Posted 20 December, 2012 Why? JustMikeJustSaidSo. Shouldn't be taboo in my opinion. Half the reason religion doesn't get into people's Christmas' is that they're indifferent or hostile to the Christianity part of it. They should be able to express why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 20 December, 2012 Share Posted 20 December, 2012 Why? Be thankful you can question and mock "our" religion, others wont allow it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special K Posted 20 December, 2012 Share Posted 20 December, 2012 Not much in the way of religous observance during Christmas for me, but then again I don't have a strong faith anyway and even if i was to true I can't quite get over the thorny issue of creationism in the face of evidence to the contrary. However, I certainly don't feel the need to criticise anyone who has a faith and no doubt we will see many examples of people with a faith helping out those who find themselves in need during the festive period, despite what some of the posters on this thread think. I did try to find a "Happy Non-Specific Pagan Winter Celebration" card for my aethist friends but there were none to be found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bad Bob Posted 20 December, 2012 Share Posted 20 December, 2012 Each to their own, Christmas is a time for forgiveness and compassion regardless of religeous persuassion, self righteous non believers can go and huddle around Hawkings wheelchair and sing some monotone ****e................ I can't quite work out whether the irony was intended or not.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubby Posted 20 December, 2012 Share Posted 20 December, 2012 Actually, Hitler believed that he was carrying out god's work in exterminating the Jews, so we can discount that one immediately. So you ignore the substantive part of my post. Can I take silence as assent regarding the point I was making? I was unaware that "Hitler believed that he was carrying out god's work in exterminating the Jews". If true, that's incredibly sad and evil. But then almost everything about Hitler is incredibly sad and evil. Do you have a reference for that piece of information? And how is it possible to know what Hitler "believed"? I hope you're not just going to quote what he said, because he wasn't exactly known for his honesty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 20 December, 2012 Share Posted 20 December, 2012 So you ignore the substantive part of my post. Can I take silence as assent regarding the point I was making? I was unaware that "Hitler believed that he was carrying out god's work in exterminating the Jews". If true, that's incredibly sad and evil. But then almost everything about Hitler is incredibly sad and evil. Do you have a reference for that piece of information? And how is it possible to know what Hitler "believed"? I hope you're not just going to quote what he said, because he wasn't exactly known for his honesty. I can't give you a reference off-hand but give me some time and I will find one. I know I read it somewhere though. The point being, in this instance, that you were trying to use the example of Nazi Germany as an example of how evil can be carried out by secular societies, not in the name of god, which is a false assertion because Hitler was in some way influenced by his belief in god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halo Stickman Posted 20 December, 2012 Share Posted 20 December, 2012 Actually, Hitler believed that he was carrying out god's work in exterminating the Jews, so we can discount that one immediately. Hey, Bexy, you and I agree on a lot of things but are you sure about this? Acting in the name of a corrupted form of social-Darwinism maybe; but, ‘carrying out god’s work’, surely not: I’ve always understood Hilter to have been a committed atheist. Happy to stand corrected if you can supply the evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 20 December, 2012 Share Posted 20 December, 2012 Hey, Bexy, you and I agree on a lot of things but are you sure about this? Acting in the name of a corrupted form of social-Darwinism maybe; but, ‘carrying out god’s work’, surely not: I’ve always understood Hilter to have been a committed atheist. Happy to stand corrected if you can supply the evidence. Hitler was a great believer in the black arts by all accounts, surrounded by occultists of all genres. Can't see him as much of a Christian but hey he made up his own rules as he went along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 20 December, 2012 Share Posted 20 December, 2012 Sorry bexy, you are wrong about hitler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 20 December, 2012 Share Posted 20 December, 2012 Hitler was a great believer in the black arts by all accounts, surrounded by occultists of all genres. Can't see him as much of a Christian but hey he made up his own rules as he went along. Hitler saw the nazis/aryans as lords of the earth and not Jesus There are so many quotes that historians have taken apart to show is that hitler may have been Christian in his early life. But as the hitler we read about. He was anything but He was just a warped twisted man that was on his own path and not really a religious one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 20 December, 2012 Share Posted 20 December, 2012 I can't give you a reference off-hand but give me some time and I will find one. I know I read it somewhere though. The point being, in this instance, that you were trying to use the example of Nazi Germany as an example of how evil can be carried out by secular societies, not in the name of god, which is a false assertion because Hitler was in some way influenced by his belief in god. I think you'll find the Nazi party were pretty anti-religion/Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 20 December, 2012 Share Posted 20 December, 2012 I can't quite work out whether the irony was intended or not.... I'll keep you guessing then...................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpbury Posted 20 December, 2012 Share Posted 20 December, 2012 No evil person believes they are Christian? It is impossible to believe in God and not be evil? Richard I (or maybe II, or III - can't quite remember,doesn't really matter, there's plenty of historical genocides in the name of a Christian (Christianity not unique!) God) was quite happy to kill pregnant women in the name of his God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 20 December, 2012 Share Posted 20 December, 2012 No evil person believes they are Christian? It is impossible to believe in God and not be evil? Richard I (or maybe II, or III - can't quite remember,doesn't really matter, there's plenty of historical genocides in the name of a Christian (Christianity not unique!) God) was quite happy to kill pregnant women in the name of his God. wasn't one of them there Borgias pope at one time or other ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 20 December, 2012 Share Posted 20 December, 2012 Watched a good doc on the Vikings last night. Interesting part about Kind Canute. Apparently, his grandfather Eric Blue Tooth moved his kingdom to Christianity and carried out mass genocide to anyone who did not/would not switch. If you look through history, it is loaded with similar stories. Christianity really took off when kings found how useful ruling by divine right was. Now they didn't have to worry so much about someone bigger and hairier coming along, killing them and taking their crown because if someone did so that, it would be against the will of god and they would burn in hell for their sins. That's why you will find a church in every town or village in Europe, to spread the word. Churches were cheaper and more loyal than armies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubby Posted 20 December, 2012 Share Posted 20 December, 2012 No evil person believes they are Christian? It is impossible to believe in God and not be evil? Richard I (or maybe II, or III - can't quite remember,doesn't really matter, there's plenty of historical genocides in the name of a Christian (Christianity not unique!) God) was quite happy to kill pregnant women in the name of his God. On the contrary, some evil people do believe they are Christians. I never said otherwise. Also, some evil people believe they are atheists. Some are agnostic. Some are all kinds of things. It is possible to believe in anything and be evil. This does not prove that any particular world view is right or wrong. You can't judge any world view by the way some people have abused it. That's where we came in about a page ago. And, to be honest, I would have thought it was obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 20 December, 2012 Share Posted 20 December, 2012 Be thankful you can question and mock "our" religion, others wont allow it. I haven't mocked anything but of course I'm thankful that I can express my own beliefs. My stance on religion is across the board as they are mostly based on the same principles and foundations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 20 December, 2012 Share Posted 20 December, 2012 I haven't mocked anything but of course I'm thankful that I can express my own beliefs. My stance on religion is across the board as they are mostly based on the same principles and foundations. well I'm not sure that Islamists,Hindus and Buddhists would agee that their respective religions are based on the same principals at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 20 December, 2012 Share Posted 20 December, 2012 well I'm not sure that Islamists,Hindus and Buddhists would agee that their respective religions are based on the same principals at all. Consider the more dominant ones across the world. The fact that there are so many says it all really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 20 December, 2012 Share Posted 20 December, 2012 Consider the more dominant ones across the world. The fact that there are so many says it all really well I think that there are more hindus than there are christians actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 20 December, 2012 Share Posted 20 December, 2012 I really hope you're not suggesting that genocide is OK so long as it's not done in the name of something? And the examples I mentioned (chosen at random) were done in the name of the proletariat, or in the name of communism, or in the name of equality. The Nazis killed millions in the name of the German people, or in the name of Hitler. Does that make them more acceptable? Sigh, I'm sure it is more enjoyable to imagine what people have written rather than actually what they've written. My point is this, nothing more and nothing less. Millions of people have done good and evil in the name of their religion, no one has ever done anything in the name of atheism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 20 December, 2012 Share Posted 20 December, 2012 (edited) I can't give you a reference off-hand but give me some time and I will find one. I know I read it somewhere though. The point being, in this instance, that you were trying to use the example of Nazi Germany as an example of how evil can be carried out by secular societies, not in the name of god, which is a false assertion because Hitler was in some way influenced by his belief in god. This makes interesting reading. Consensus being that Hitler probably believed in God but was dissatisfied with organised Christianity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler In any case the evil of the Nazis was in the name of national socialism, racial purity and racial superiority, and certainly not in the name of atheism. How much of their pathological hatred of the Jews was religious as opposed to social, economic, and racial is open to debate but it certainly played a major part. Edited 20 December, 2012 by anothersaintinsouthsea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 20 December, 2012 Share Posted 20 December, 2012 The Nazi's highjacked National Socialism, since when has being a patriot and a socialist been bad? Now the words are interlinked and people immediately think of Hitler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubby Posted 21 December, 2012 Share Posted 21 December, 2012 Sigh, I'm sure it is more enjoyable to imagine what people have written rather than actually what they've written. My point is this, nothing more and nothing less. Millions of people have done good and evil in the name of their religion, no one has ever done anything in the name of atheism. A little reading would quickly verify that what I wrote is not imaginary. Yes, that is your point. And there's a lot of truth in it. It's probably difficult to be motivated to either good or evil by a belief in the absense of something. But this is a discussion forum, which means other people are also invited to make points. And I attempted to make two. The first was that if an athiest does something evil without saying atheism is his motivation for doing it, that hardly makes it any less evil. The second was that some atheists seem to have had no trouble blaming their evil actions on factors other than their atheism. I like to think you don't really mind me making these points, and I hope you will see as much truth in them as I did in yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 21 December, 2012 Share Posted 21 December, 2012 A little reading would quickly verify that what I wrote is not imaginary. The first thing you wrote in response to my point was I really hope you're not suggesting that genocide is OK so long as it's not done in the name of something? which was wholly irrelevant to anything in my comment hence my reference to your imagination. The first was that if an athiest does something evil without saying atheism is his motivation for doing it, that hardly makes it any less evil. Quite, did anyone suggest otherwise? The second was that some atheists seem to have had no trouble blaming their evil actions on factors other than their atheism. Exactly, no one has ever committed an atrocity in the name of atheism but plenty of committed atrocities in the name of God which is a reason for many to criticise religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubby Posted 21 December, 2012 Share Posted 21 December, 2012 The first thing you wrote in response to my point was which was wholly irrelevant to anything in my comment hence my reference to your imagination. Quite, did anyone suggest otherwise? Exactly, no one has ever committed an atrocity in the name of atheism but plenty of committed atrocities in the name of God which is a reason for many to criticise religion. 1. You nay have found it irrelevant. I don't think it was. 2. I'm glad you agree with my first point. 3. You're re-iterating your point for the second time. Again, I largely agree with it. You're ignoring or mis-interpreting my second point. I don't see much value in our continuing to repeat the obvious to each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Garrett Posted 21 December, 2012 Share Posted 21 December, 2012 I like doing the christmas carols! These is my favourites: 1) Cum On Your Faithful - I like the bit where it is all soft oh cum on your faithful, oh cum on your faithful and then I get to do a right loud shouting OH CUM ON ALL YOUR F*CKING FAITHFUL YOU CVNT!! 2) The 12 days of Christmas - I like to do alternative lyrics so it is like my true love give to me 7 dirty blow jobs, 6 anal fisting, 5 STD's etc. 3) O holy night - I like the bit where it goes "Fall on your knees and hear the something something" I always find that bit genuinely moving! Hahahahahahahahahahaaaa Just seen this and spat my tea on my desk! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 21 December, 2012 Author Share Posted 21 December, 2012 So we've started with Christmas and are now onto Hitler? Fair enough. Nearly all information I've found points out that while Hitler's belief in Christianity is unsure due to conflicting statements in private and public, there seems little doubt that he believed in a God, so the evidence seems to be that he wasn't an atheist. One common mistake seems to be that atheism is a lack of belief and faith. The dawn of my own atheism was the beginning of my own beliefs and faiths. These are ideas I came to myself and are very important to me. Atheism is often characterised by very strong and passionate personal beliefs, just not in a god. I think this is due to the fact that atheism is so often a very personal and individual decision, whereas religion is often (not always) characterised by being a "taught" faith, passed on by family, geography and the culture one is born into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halo Stickman Posted 21 December, 2012 Share Posted 21 December, 2012 So we've started with Christmas and are now onto Hitler? Fair enough. Nearly all information I've found points out that while Hitler's belief in Christianity is unsure due to conflicting statements in private and public, there seems little doubt that he believed in a God, so the evidence seems to be that he wasn't an atheist. One common mistake seems to be that atheism is a lack of belief and faith. The dawn of my own atheism was the beginning of my own beliefs and faiths. These are ideas I came to myself and are very important to me. Atheism is often characterised by very strong and passionate personal beliefs, just not in a god. I think this is due to the fact that atheism is so often a very personal and individual decision, whereas religion is often (not always) characterised by being a "taught" faith, passed on by family, geography and the culture one is born into. We all have to believe in something: belief in ourselves, belief in our family and friends, belief in SFC, belief that things will get better, belief in whatever. Otherwise, what’s the point of getting out of bed in the morning? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubby Posted 21 December, 2012 Share Posted 21 December, 2012 We all have to believe in something: belief in ourselves, belief in our family and friends, belief in SFC, belief that things will get better, belief in whatever. Otherwise, what’s the point of getting out of bed in the morning? This is interesting to me. Atheisim.about.com says 'The broader, and more common, understanding of atheism among atheists is quite simply "not believing in any gods." No claims or denials are made - an atheist is just a person who does not happen to be a theist.' I guess you would dispute that. You say you have faith, indeed that the dawn of your atheism was the beginning of your beliefs and faiths. I suspect we all need to have faith in something or somone. Many have faith in science, or in reason, for example. May I ask (and I ask respectfully) if your faiths are faiths in certain things or beings, or concepts, or something and, if so, what are those objects of your faiths? For what it's worth, I understand what you say about passion resulting from a personal, individual decision. I'm a Christian who was raised an atheist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halo Stickman Posted 21 December, 2012 Share Posted 21 December, 2012 This is interesting to me. Atheisim.about.com says 'The broader, and more common, understanding of atheism among atheists is quite simply "not believing in any gods." No claims or denials are made - an atheist is just a person who does not happen to be a theist.' I guess you would dispute that. You say you have faith, indeed that the dawn of your atheism was the beginning of your beliefs and faiths. I suspect we all need to have faith in something or somone. Many have faith in science, or in reason, for example. May I ask (and I ask respectfully) if your faiths are faiths in certain things or beings, or concepts, or something and, if so, what are those objects of your faiths? For what it's worth, I understand what you say about passion resulting from a personal, individual decision. I'm a Christian who was raised an atheist. Think you meant to address this to norwaysaint? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Posted 21 December, 2012 Share Posted 21 December, 2012 They don't, you're just using that to back up your point. A more scientific mind is likely to be more comfortable with the concept of the unknown. That's what science is, trying to understand things we don't yet understand. That starts by saying 'we have no answer for that yet', rather than throwing out random things we should believe in. Atheists shouldn't exist, it shouldn't be an issue, but it very much is because of theism. What you're arguing against is rational society standing up for itself. And you question how and why some of these people get passionate about a subject that has plagued human history and continues to cause havoc today. The uncurious, uninterested apologists for religion are just as much of a problem as the religious themselves. Yet I have no problem with someone saying 'I think some sort of god created the universe'. That's fine. No evidence either way, it makes the word god fit in as the creating force whether intelligent or not. Doesn't help us though, as if proved you'd end up with 'well who or what created that god, what else is there' and so on. But at least those are philosophical questions of curious people that don't harm anyone. Not ancient systems of control designed to maintain power and money at best, and excuses for war and suppression at worst. So yes, seeing the amount of racism, sexism, homophobia, vengeance, violence, greed, hate and irrationality in its name, it's fairly understandable for atheists to get passionate about it. If you think the false comfort of a few is worth all that, then good for you. And whoever mentions the 'winterval' stuff, it's never been true. Just stereotypical Daily Mail garbage designed solely to stir up anger in the likes of gullible reactionary cliched idiots...and as usual, it worked. And much of the atrocities throughout history have not been linked to religion at all. I've had people argue how the Holocaust etc was religion's fault and IMO that's complete sh*t for so many reasons it's not even worth going in to. Blaming all of history's problems on religion seems absurd and simplistic to me, but such a classic argument. As represented by people in this thread calling religious people 'nuts' etc, like you said people with scientific minds will be more inclined not to be religious (worth pointing out though there are many scientists with strong spiritual beliefs), and others will believe in some sort of greater being. Its all double standards, that's what ****es me off. Atheists i know will go on about how religion shouldn't be shoved down people's throats etc, and quite right, but then they then carry on ridiculing anyone who is religious as a 'nut' and 'wrong', doing what they say they are so against. And i'd suggest in most churches up and down the country a very loving message is spread, not one of racism/sexism/vengeance you seem to be suggesting. And like i said i'm agnostic, but i just think its inevitable people are going to have different mindsets on life/the universe/creation etc, because its so mind boggling. Don't see why others can't accept this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 21 December, 2012 Share Posted 21 December, 2012 christmas was a pagan festival our original religion but all i know is its a time for enjoying whether you are religious or not with family and friends. happy christmas all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 21 December, 2012 Share Posted 21 December, 2012 christmas was a pagan festival our original religion but all i know is its a time for enjoying whether you are religious or not with family and friends. happy christmas all The Pagan festival of Yule Tide started today. Christmas, it being a foreign religion to these shores, forced upon us but those simply wishing to control, was merely piggy backed onto the existing festival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 21 December, 2012 Author Share Posted 21 December, 2012 This is interesting to me. Atheisim.about.com says 'The broader, and more common, understanding of atheism among atheists is quite simply "not believing in any gods." No claims or denials are made - an atheist is just a person who does not happen to be a theist.' I guess you would dispute that. You say you have faith, indeed that the dawn of your atheism was the beginning of your beliefs and faiths. I suspect we all need to have faith in something or somone. Many have faith in science, or in reason, for example. May I ask (and I ask respectfully) if your faiths are faiths in certain things or beings, or concepts, or something and, if so, what are those objects of your faiths? For what it's worth, I understand what you say about passion resulting from a personal, individual decision. I'm a Christian who was raised an atheist. Oh, atheism by definition absolutely means not believing in a god, but my point is that this doesn't mean not believing in anything. Atheism isn't the end of how most atheists would describe their beliefs, it's only the beginning. I would say that the decision to stop believing in a god is in fact often spurred by a belief in something else. atheism defines what you don't believe in, defining what you do believe is a whole other subject. If you met somebody who said they didn't like football, you wouldn't decide that that person had no interests in life, or even that they didn't like sport. I'm not going to go into my beliefs and what I have faith in because I think that would send the thread in a whole other direction and I only have three posts a day so I wouldn't be in a position to respond explain or develop any comment I made. My decision to stick to three posts a day is entirely because I don't want to become one of those people who get addicted to posting their opinions endlessly on every subject. I like to have a life separate from this place. Out of interest, do you think you would have chosen Christianity if you had grown up in a culture dominated by Islam or any other religion? to me there seems to be a lot of people coincidentally choosing religions that happen to be dominant in their surrounding culture. Christians tend to ask "If you don't believe in God, how do you explain where everything came from, nothing can come from nothing." But I would never claim to have answers, to me it's a mystery and that's fine. Science doesn't claim to have all the answers. By definition, science is about constantly facing your own ignorance and being open to being wrong, that's how every single hypothesis and experiment starts. I don't think that mystery is solved by shoving god into the equation, to me that's more of a fear of the unknown and an attempt to avoid the enormous extent of our ignorance with a single, comforting fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldbarbarian Posted 21 December, 2012 Share Posted 21 December, 2012 No religion at all in my christmas but the turkey is always good and the beer always flowing, kids smiling so thats all that matters! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 21 December, 2012 Share Posted 21 December, 2012 The Pagan festival of Yule Tide started today. Christmas, it being a foreign religion to these shores, forced upon us but those simply wishing to control, was merely piggy backed onto the existing festival.agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubby Posted 22 December, 2012 Share Posted 22 December, 2012 Oh, atheism by definition absolutely means not believing in a god, but my point is that this doesn't mean not believing in anything. Atheism isn't the end of how most atheists would describe their beliefs, it's only the beginning. I would say that the decision to stop believing in a god is in fact often spurred by a belief in something else. atheism defines what you don't believe in, defining what you do believe is a whole other subject. If you met somebody who said they didn't like football, you wouldn't decide that that person had no interests in life, or even that they didn't like sport. I'm not going to go into my beliefs and what I have faith in because I think that would send the thread in a whole other direction and I only have three posts a day so I wouldn't be in a position to respond explain or develop any comment I made. My decision to stick to three posts a day is entirely because I don't want to become one of those people who get addicted to posting their opinions endlessly on every subject. I like to have a life separate from this place. Out of interest, do you think you would have chosen Christianity if you had grown up in a culture dominated by Islam or any other religion? to me there seems to be a lot of people coincidentally choosing religions that happen to be dominant in their surrounding culture. Christians tend to ask "If you don't believe in God, how do you explain where everything came from, nothing can come from nothing." But I would never claim to have answers, to me it's a mystery and that's fine. Science doesn't claim to have all the answers. By definition, science is about constantly facing your own ignorance and being open to being wrong, that's how every single hypothesis and experiment starts. I don't think that mystery is solved by shoving god into the equation, to me that's more of a fear of the unknown and an attempt to avoid the enormous extent of our ignorance with a single, comforting fix. I agree completely with what you say about atheism and atheists. I would request that you and others try not to over-generalise about Christians (as in "Christians tend to...."). I try not to over-generalise about atheists. I have heard Christians ask that kind of question, but not often. I highly respect your - and anybody's - willingness to say "I don't know". It's not as if Christians have all the answers, either (well, I don't, anyway). I can't answer a question about whether I would have chosen Christianity had circumstances been different. We never know what might have been. We must all make out own choices, and we do well to respect the choices of others. But I'm very glad to have made the choice I did. Anyway, as someone else posted earlier, Merry Christmas to everybody, whatever their beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 22 December, 2012 Share Posted 22 December, 2012 I agree completely with what you say about atheism and atheists. I would request that you and others try not to over-generalise about Christians (as in "Christians tend to...."). I try not to over-generalise about atheists. I have heard Christians ask that kind of question, but not often. I highly respect your - and anybody's - willingness to say "I don't know". It's not as if Christians have all the answers, either (well, I don't, anyway). I can't answer a question about whether I would have chosen Christianity had circumstances been different. We never know what might have been. We must all make out own choices, and we do well to respect the choices of others. But I'm very glad to have made the choice I did. Anyway, as someone else posted earlier, Merry Christmas to everybody, whatever their beliefs. But most believers don't make an active choice. My colleague's child started a Catholic school in September and by November he'd learnt to cross himself and knows off by heart several different prayers - and he's not even four and a half. What choice did he make? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 22 December, 2012 Share Posted 22 December, 2012 But most believers don't make an active choice. My colleague's child started a Catholic school in September and by November he'd learnt to cross himself and knows off by heart several different prayers - and he's not even four and a half. What choice did he make? He hasn't made a choice yet. he's being conditioned to what someone wants him to believe. Sometimes that sticks, other times it doesn't. I was raised catholic from very young, I grew up, I learnt more about it all and then rejected it. That lad will also have a choice when he becomes more aware of what religion actually is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubby Posted 23 December, 2012 Share Posted 23 December, 2012 He hasn't made a choice yet. he's being conditioned to what someone wants him to believe. Sometimes that sticks, other times it doesn't. I was raised catholic from very young, I grew up, I learnt more about it all and then rejected it. That lad will also have a choice when he becomes more aware of what religion actually is. We all condition our children, and so do schools, according to what we believe. Don't kid yourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 23 December, 2012 Share Posted 23 December, 2012 We all condition our children, and so do schools, according to what we believe. Don't kid yourselves. Well you can condition your kids to value reason, rationality and logic or you can condition your kids to believe in 2000 year old book. In any case I tell my kids that I don't believe in God but they can believe in whatever they want. There's a difference between telling your kids what you and others believe, and telling them what to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubby Posted 24 December, 2012 Share Posted 24 December, 2012 Well you can condition your kids to value reason, rationality and logic or you can condition your kids to believe in 2000 year old book. In any case I tell my kids that I don't believe in God but they can believe in whatever they want. There's a difference between telling your kids what you and others believe, and telling them what to believe. To avoid passing your values on to your children is more difficult than you seem to think. I suspect your post makes that quite obvious. As to reason, rationality and logic, I suspect that I and many people of faith have those qualities as much as many atheists. It may be a mistake to think that your world view is the only rational one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 24 December, 2012 Share Posted 24 December, 2012 To avoid passing your values on to your children is more difficult than you seem to think. I suspect your post makes that quite obvious. As to reason, rationality and logic, I suspect that I and many people of faith have those qualities as much as many atheists. It may be a mistake to think that your world view is the only rational one. Well I was only referring to belief in God. Any parent who thinks they are a good person should seek to pass on good values to their kids. If you think you arrived at religious belief through reason, logic and rational thought then you either don't understand what they mean or you are just kidding yourself. It's called "faith" for a reason. Try expressing your reasons for your belief in the existence of God and we'll see the characteristics of faith not objective evidence. As for "world view" all I've said is that I don't believe in God. Does that qualify as a world view? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 24 December, 2012 Share Posted 24 December, 2012 To avoid passing your values on to your children is more difficult than you seem to think. I suspect your post makes that quite obvious. As to reason, rationality and logic, I suspect that I and many people of faith have those qualities as much as many atheists. It may be a mistake to think that your world view is the only rational one. Sorry but faith and rationality are, by definition, mutually exclusive. The whole concept of faith requires the abandonment of reason in favour of belief in that which cannot be evidenced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 24 December, 2012 Share Posted 24 December, 2012 Dunno Bexy I believe in a lot of the science stuff over the religion stuff, but isn't it ultimately the same that I'm believing what other people is telling me? I mean I've never done my own experiments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 24 December, 2012 Share Posted 24 December, 2012 To avoid passing your values on to your children is more difficult than you seem to think. I suspect your post makes that quite obvious. As to reason, rationality and logic, I suspect that I and many people of faith have those qualities as much as many atheists. It may be a mistake to think that your world view is the only rational one. Faith requires the suspension of logic. Anyone how chooses faith over logic is mentally deficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 24 December, 2012 Share Posted 24 December, 2012 Faith requires the suspension of logic. Anyone how chooses faith over logic is mentally deficient. The bible was a pretty logical explanation though, i mean back in the day when they invented it. I'd of definitely been believing in the bible if i was born 200 years ago. Maybe not the Jonah and the Whale or whatever, but you can see how they was believing in the God Made The World. They weren't mentally deficient. It was the best explanation they had! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilippineSaint Posted 24 December, 2012 Share Posted 24 December, 2012 The bible was a pretty logical explanation though, i mean back in the day when they invented it. I'd of definitely been believing in the bible if i was born 200 years ago. Maybe not the Jonah and the Whale or whatever, but you can see how they was believing in the God Made The World. They weren't mentally deficient. It was the best explanation they had! Thats pretty profound for you Bear and not far wrong either The reason Muslims don't eat pork it went off to quick in the heat, Muhammad's way to stop them getting sick was to tell them god said it's bad for you. the invention of the refrigerator hasn't changed there mind's though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 24 December, 2012 Share Posted 24 December, 2012 The reason Muslims don't eat pork it went off to quick in the heat, Muhammad's way to stop them getting sick was to tell them god said it's bad for you. the invention of the refrigerator hasn't changed there mind's though. Didn't they just inherit that from Judaism as Islam is based on Abrahamic Law ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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