saint lard Posted 14 December, 2012 Share Posted 14 December, 2012 It's not about 'gun laws' anymore....it's about 'massacre prevention'..... my heart goes out to the people and especially the children that lost their lives today in horrific circumstances. ryan Lanza, it appears also took the lives of his parents,one of which,his mother was a teacher at the school. WTF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 14 December, 2012 Share Posted 14 December, 2012 How many massacres does there have to be before the dumb f*cking Yanks do anything about their gun laws? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 14 December, 2012 Share Posted 14 December, 2012 It's their right as an American to own and carry guns... Or some crap Loonies!!! If you have not seen it, watch bowling for columbine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swannymere Posted 14 December, 2012 Share Posted 14 December, 2012 Just waiting for the NRA to say that if the kids/teachers were armed it wouldn't have happened Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1885 Posted 14 December, 2012 Share Posted 14 December, 2012 Just waiting for the NRA to say that if the kids/teachers were armed it wouldn't have happened This. Let them have another 60 yrs of their current weapon's laws and they'll probably all will have extinct themselves... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascadia Saint Posted 14 December, 2012 Share Posted 14 December, 2012 It's getting ridiculous over here, makes me wonder how I can think about bringing up kids here. And there was a shooting at the mall down the road the other day too. Crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 14 December, 2012 Share Posted 14 December, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 14 December, 2012 Share Posted 14 December, 2012 It's getting ridiculous over here, makes me wonder how I can think about bringing up kids here. And there was a shooting at the mall down the road the other day too. Crazy. Out of interest what is the general consesus when onr of these massacres happen ? Over here obviously we blame the gun laws etc but interested in the local thoughts ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 14 December, 2012 Share Posted 14 December, 2012 It's their right as an American to own and carry guns... Or some crap Loonies!!! If you have not seen it, watch bowling for columbine. Thought Michael Moore would be a bit looney liberal for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hockey_saint Posted 14 December, 2012 Share Posted 14 December, 2012 It's troublesome Smirking_saint; I mean, their right to bare arms is a carry over from the English Bill of rights that state: "Subjects which are Protestants may have Arms for their Defense" and of course a more recent (kinda nearer the 18th century) stated "the right to bare arms within the confines and parameters of the law". I mean, citizens of the colonies, then the free states were always known as excellent shooters and they still take pride in that, but it lends itself to every Tom, **** and Harry having a gun and I think this mindset that whatever was right back in 1776 must be right today and must be adapted like all the other bits like change to slavery, witch hunts, hating the catholics, Jews, and communists....so yeah, it's not just licencing that needs happening and banning of guns wont work, it's a cultural thing that needs to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 14 December, 2012 Share Posted 14 December, 2012 Thought Michael Moore would be a bit looney liberal for you. he is....but the point of that programme is spot on... when charlton heston tries to claim that the US has a more violent history than anyone else (hence their thirst for guns)...he made him look like a mug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SB Posted 14 December, 2012 Share Posted 14 December, 2012 Just copy and paste the comments from the thread about the last one or something. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidshokk Posted 15 December, 2012 Share Posted 15 December, 2012 (edited) RIP little ones so so sad.... Hope all who died have gone to a better, less screwed up place Edited 15 December, 2012 by Liquidshokk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 15 December, 2012 Share Posted 15 December, 2012 Unbeleivable Michael Moore Filmmaker tweets: Just 18 hrs ago, those Republicans in the Michigan House rammed thru a bill making it LEGAL to carry a gun into a school or day care center. In Florida a few years ago, the made it legal to carry a gun to work provided it was left in the boot of your car. Makes firing someone somewhat more dicey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andysstuff Posted 15 December, 2012 Share Posted 15 December, 2012 Seems the gun lobby are agrguing that this wouldn't have happened if more people were allowed to carry concealed weapons. There really really really aren't enough facepalms anywhere for that kind of logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 15 December, 2012 Share Posted 15 December, 2012 They won't be changing their beloved constitution any time soon. Now would be the perfect time for Obama to try though, right at the start of his final term. Even to be remembered as a president who tried but failed to change the gun law would give him a greater legacy. If he doesn't try, he's just another one in the line of presidents who took no significant action. The problem is the general American view of federal interference, Americans generally prefer to be governed by their state and see federal intervention about the same way as we see European intervention in our countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cat Posted 15 December, 2012 Share Posted 15 December, 2012 The EDL wade in with a horrific comment on twitter: https://twitter.com/JasonWillman3/status/279750495600508929/photo/1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheaf Saint Posted 15 December, 2012 Share Posted 15 December, 2012 The EDL wade in with a horrific comment on twitter: https://twitter.com/JasonWillman3/status/279750495600508929/photo/1 So because their parents may or may not hold left-wing political views, the kids deserved to die? On the official EDL account as well - just doing their bit to convince everyone that they are just a peace-loving, patriotic organisation as always I see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 15 December, 2012 Share Posted 15 December, 2012 I can't see that tweet on the actual account. Possibly not real. It's very counter-productive if people start making stuff up now. Doesn't help anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 15 December, 2012 Share Posted 15 December, 2012 So because their parents may or may not hold left-wing political views, the kids deserved to die? On the official EDL account as well - just doing their bit to convince everyone that they are just a peace-loving, patriotic organisation as always I see. is it the real account..? I very much doubt it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimond Geezer Posted 15 December, 2012 Share Posted 15 December, 2012 Seems the gun lobby are agrguing that this wouldn't have happened if more people were allowed to carry concealed weapons. There really really really aren't enough facepalms anywhere for that kind of logic. They some seriously f***ed up people with f***ed up views over there. But hey...it's their birth right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tractor_Saint Posted 15 December, 2012 Share Posted 15 December, 2012 A very sad state of affairs. If someone has time though it'd be interesting to look at the UK and US population and compare number of these incidents per head. I agree that something has to be done about it but is the UK any better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andysstuff Posted 15 December, 2012 Share Posted 15 December, 2012 If someone has time though it'd be interesting to look at the UK and US population and compare number of these incidents per head. See post 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 15 December, 2012 Share Posted 15 December, 2012 A very sad state of affairs. If someone has time though it'd be interesting to look at the UK and US population and compare number of these incidents per head. I agree that something has to be done about it but is the UK any better? US population: 315,000,000 31,224 firearem related deaths 2007 (including suicides(about 17,000 of them)) I make that about 1 fatal shooting per 10088 people. UK population: 62,000,000 59 fatal shootings in 2007 I make that about 1 fatal shooting per 1,050,847 people. So availability of guns does seem to have an influence on how many people are killed with guns, although there could be other factors, like availability of bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 15 December, 2012 Share Posted 15 December, 2012 i find it incredible that you COULD go into a supermarket, buy your bread, milk and box of 50 rounds.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackFrost Posted 15 December, 2012 Share Posted 15 December, 2012 Part of it is a cultural thing of course and the American's lax gun laws don't help, but even if all the guns in the world disappeared tomorrow people would still kill other people, they'd just use another weapon to do it. For instance this has only just happened in China. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-20723910 Now I'm no expert on Chinese gun laws but over there it's a spate of knife attacks. "How could anyone do such a thing?" People ask. Well I'm not defending the guy's actions for one second and we'll probably never know his reasons but mental illness can be so potentially dangerous in so many ways. The vast majority of mentally ill people will be totally harmless to other people but there's always the small percentage that can develop issues such as paranoia/delusions/psychosis and then at the same time develop feelings of self-doubt which can even fool themselves into thinking they don't have any problem. Therefore the problem will stay hidden. Mental illness has such a wide spectrum, can be so ambiguous and can catch anyone at any time. During my time in the force I met no end of people with psychopathic tendencies/murderers. Plenty of them could be capable of something like this and not bat an eyelid, but in most cases they've had the right treatment after being caught (or after they've wanted to be caught in some cases) after doing a lesser crime. There's always some that will slip through the net, and there's plenty of people who've been abused/beaten all their lives, haven't known anything else and anything other than confrontation/violence isn't normal to them. My heart goes out to all the families/friends that have been affected by this but the American's gun control laws don't even scratch the surface of this and why it happened. Again, I'm not defending the guy's actions for a second but he'd have had his own extremely disturbed views and reasons for doing what he did. Sure, people can call him all the names in the world and deservedly so but spend a day in a high security prison or mental asylum where extremely dangerous prisoners are kept and to say it's an eye-opener is a big understatement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SB Posted 15 December, 2012 Share Posted 15 December, 2012 One things for sure, guns will always be legal, if Obama was to that the opponent in an election would make the legal, think they have to think outside the box Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilippineSaint Posted 15 December, 2012 Share Posted 15 December, 2012 One things for sure, guns will always be legal, if Obama was to that the opponent in an election would make the legal, think they have to think outside the box youve been thinking out your box by that statement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint in Paradise Posted 15 December, 2012 Share Posted 15 December, 2012 Gunman opens fire in US hospital: reports A gunman has opened fire at a hospital in Alabama. According to reports, he began shooting when confronted by police officers, who were called to St Vincent's Hospital on reports a man was walking around with a gun. The man injured one officer and two workers before being shot dead by police. http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/world/15646402/gunman-opens-fire-in-us-hospital-reports/ . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 16 December, 2012 Share Posted 16 December, 2012 I'm in a school today and can't help but feel a sadness when I look down the corridors. It's such a terrible tragedy and so near to Christmas too. The USA needs to have a long look at themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvaughanwilliams Posted 16 December, 2012 Share Posted 16 December, 2012 Some Americans seem to define themselves by their right to own guns. Growing up with this culture makes it totally ingrained. Having scanned the threads about this subject on Reddit, there are a lot of people who seem to genuinely believe that if more people had concealed firearms, then fewer people would have been shot. The arguments that they give to justify weapon ownership is that if guns were illegal then criminals would be the only ones who were armed and they would have a permanent advantage over the law-abiding citizenry. By letting everyone own guns it evens things up. Gun advocates are quick to point out gun ownership stats from other countries and the fact that these are not correlated to the murder rate: popular examples are Mexico (guns are illegal, but widely imported from Texas) and Switzerland (high levels of gun ownership, low levels of murder). They say that this proves that Americans are generally just more inclined to murder people and legal gun ownership is merely coincidental. Even talk of a register of guns or licensing incenses some. The level of ownership is so high, with no records of who owns what, makes any kind of restriction on firearms practically impossible to implement, especially in rural areas. There's no obvious, simple solution that could be implemented quickly. The cultural attachment to guns, combined with an increasingly unequal society, demonising the poor as 'takers' and limited access to mental health care have all combined to produce situations like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 16 December, 2012 Share Posted 16 December, 2012 I would quite like to have a gun. If I lived in America I'd definitely be getting one. I'm not quite so down with other people having them though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohio Saint Posted 16 December, 2012 Share Posted 16 December, 2012 Some Americans seem to define themselves by their right to own guns. Growing up with this culture makes it totally ingrained. Having scanned the threads about this subject on Reddit, there are a lot of people who seem to genuinely believe that if more people had concealed firearms, then fewer people would have been shot. The arguments that they give to justify weapon ownership is that if guns were illegal then criminals would be the only ones who were armed and they would have a permanent advantage over the law-abiding citizenry. By letting everyone own guns it evens things up. Gun advocates are quick to point out gun ownership stats from other countries and the fact that these are not correlated to the murder rate: popular examples are Mexico (guns are illegal, but widely imported from Texas) and Switzerland (high levels of gun ownership, low levels of murder). They say that this proves that Americans are generally just more inclined to murder people and legal gun ownership is merely coincidental. Even talk of a register of guns or licensing incenses some. The level of ownership is so high, with no records of who owns what, makes any kind of restriction on firearms practically impossible to implement, especially in rural areas. There's no obvious, simple solution that could be implemented quickly. The cultural attachment to guns, combined with an increasingly unequal society, demonising the poor as 'takers' and limited access to mental health care have all combined to produce situations like this. That's about a perfect a post on the subject as anyone could write, IMO. I would add that their right to bear arms is what some of the more rampant gun nuts believe makes America superior to all those lesser countries that don't have any freedom.......At times, it can feel like living in a cage of monkeys at poo flinging time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 16 December, 2012 Share Posted 16 December, 2012 The US gun laws might have been relatively 'harmless' 250 years ago when it mainly just applied to farmers and their muskets, but when it is applied in modern times it means anyone can get their hands on weaponry restricted to the military in most countries. It's mental, and sadly you can't just change the law overnight in the US. The culture is so ingrained, it'd have to be done over generations. It makes nutters so much more dangerous. People have a history of snapping, but in this country, at least when someone snaps they don't have a gun. And also, if it was planned and not spontaneous, they'd have to get hold of a gun illegally first which would create problems in itself. And yet despite the absolute tragedy of Sandy Hook, people from the pro-gun lobby in the US are already wheeling out the tired old 'if more people had had guns, someone would have shot the gunman'. Madness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 16 December, 2012 Share Posted 16 December, 2012 (edited) That's about a perfect a post on the subject as anyone could write, IMO. I would add that their right to bear arms is what some of the more rampant gun nuts believe makes America superior to all those lesser countries that don't have any freedom.......At times, it can feel like living in a cage of monkeys at poo flinging time. I was listening yesterday to an interview with a cafe owner in the town. His son had attended that school, his daughter had been a student treacher there. Apparently a sane and intelligent man he spoke movingly about the impact of the events. At the end the British interviewer asked him about gun control and suddenly it was like listening to someone from a parallel universe. The answer apparently, was not gun control, but that the school staff should have been armed. I find it impossible to get my head onto the wavelength of anybody who thinks the solution to children being shot is to have guns readily available at a school. It was the same argument after the shooting in the Aurora cinema shootings - people would have been saved if more people in the audience had guns. Panicked people shooting in the dark at shadows and at each other would have been a better outcome? really? The maths are simple. If you have a gun in the house you, your spouse or your child are 11 times more likely to shoot themselves or another family members than be shot by an outsider. Edited 16 December, 2012 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 16 December, 2012 Share Posted 16 December, 2012 Too many guns, too many nutjobs, too many civil rights, too much greed and too much inequality means it will keep on happening. It's not just the guns, it's the environnment in which they exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LVSaint Posted 17 December, 2012 Share Posted 17 December, 2012 I think we can at least expect a reinstatement of Clinton's assault weapons ban stemming from these recent events. This 1994 ban had a shelf life of 10 years only...f..u..c..k.. knows why it was never made permanent or instantly renewed. The president made a very touching speech tonight at the town of the massacre. He made several strong hints that things would change. Let's hope so. He should be able to run with something pretty 'radical' now, unlike after the Batman shootings which came so close before the election... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint137 Posted 17 December, 2012 Share Posted 17 December, 2012 I see one of the kids killed was from Eastleigh, only moved out there a couple of years ago. Dad an accountant for IBM, guess he was working at Hursley or North Harbour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadhall Saint Posted 17 December, 2012 Share Posted 17 December, 2012 Watch bowling for columbine if you want to see America's attitude to guns. The opening scene's show how if you open a bank account they give you a free hunting rifle! Bet Jesse James would have loved a bank like that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 17 December, 2012 Share Posted 17 December, 2012 It's troublesome Smirking_saint; I mean, their right to bare arms is a carry over from the English Bill of rights that state: "Subjects which are Protestants may have Arms for their Defense" and of course a more recent (kinda nearer the 18th century) stated "the right to bare arms within the confines and parameters of the law". I'm sure I heard something recently on the radio about the constitutional right to bear arms, (before the latest, inevitable massacre,) the yank who was talking about it pointed out that the text of the 5th amendment (?) actually started by saying "A well-prepared militia being necessary to the defence of the country....." or somesuch. The implication being that americans should have the right to bear arms in order to defend the country against invasion, rather than for personal protection, and that the bill of rights is always selectively quoted in the case of gun ownership. In any case, its too late now, they arent going to persuade 100 million people to turn in 300 million guns, that genie is well and truly out of the bottle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjsaint Posted 17 December, 2012 Share Posted 17 December, 2012 The right to bear arms is enshrined in the 2nd amendment however the exact wording refers to a 'well-regulated militia'. In other words the US is allowed to have an armed military. A bunch of gun nuts running around is not what I would call a 'well-regulated militia'. It will be a very brave politician who takes this on. Obama can't be re-elected, but by promoting gun control legislation he will hand the next election to the Republicans. Remember that in 2000 Gore lost his home state of Tennessee on this issue - had he taken a pro gun stance it would have been President Gore without a doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halo Stickman Posted 17 December, 2012 Share Posted 17 December, 2012 Pistol duelling was consigned to the history books not so much through legislation and moral disproval but because a younger generation came to regard the sight of solemn old men duelling over a point of honour as archaic, laughable and ludicrous. Hopefully, a younger generation of Americans - so often the generation to suffer from ridiculous American gun laws - will come to regard weaponry stockpiling as equally archaic, laughable and ludicrous. Legislation and moral disproval can be effective, but often the best agent for change is public ridicule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 17 December, 2012 Share Posted 17 December, 2012 SO they have a constitutional right to bear arms - well 300 years ago, you had a good chance of being scalped or shot by billy the kid types, so it made sense. They also did not have an effective law enforcement agency at that time. So the law was right for the times. Nowadays it is different - they have law enforcement, billy the kid is less of a issue and the indians are more interested in fleecing you at their casinos, than giving you a haircut. Time to change the law to keep up with the times. However, they will not change, ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manji Posted 18 December, 2012 Share Posted 18 December, 2012 SO they have a constitutional right to bear arms - well 300 years ago, you had a good chance of being scalped or shot by billy the kid types, so it made sense. They also did not have an effective law enforcement agency at that time. So the law was right for the times. Nowadays it is different - they have law enforcement, billy the kid is less of a issue and the indians are more interested in fleecing you at their casinos, than giving you a haircut. Time to change the law to keep up with the times. However, they will not change, ever. A terrible event for sure but what about all the civilians killed in drone attacks and written off as collateral damage or the Gazans killed by military bombaredment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 21 December, 2012 Share Posted 21 December, 2012 BBC Breaking News @BBCBreaking "Only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" - US National Rifle Association says, following #Connecticut shooting The Associated Press @AP BREAKING: NRA calls for an armed police officer in every school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miserableoldgit Posted 21 December, 2012 Share Posted 21 December, 2012 A terrible event for sure but what about all the civilians killed in drone attacks and written off as collateral damage or the Gazans killed by military bombaredment. Indeed. Or the innocent people killed in the Twin Towers or the London bombings or any other terrorist attack. It is very sad when ANY innocent person dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 21 December, 2012 Share Posted 21 December, 2012 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/21/nra-full-statement-lapierre-newtown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 21 December, 2012 Share Posted 21 December, 2012 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/21/nra-full-statement-lapierre-newtown My considered opinion is 'dumb fu ck' (him that is Trousers, not you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Kirkup Posted 21 December, 2012 Share Posted 21 December, 2012 BBC Breaking News @BBCBreaking "Only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" - US National Rifle Association says, following #Connecticut shooting The Associated Press @AP BREAKING: NRA calls for an armed police officer in every school. So John Lennon was killed because he wasn't quick enough on the draw? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 21 December, 2012 Share Posted 21 December, 2012 In the wake of the Connecticut massacre, Obama has announced that he may consider a ban on the sale of automatic weapons to the general public, and even to enforce the existing law that firearm shops have to carry out a background check on people buying their guns. At times like these, its crucial that the President is seen to be pretending to do something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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