Mr X Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 For me it's all about staying up this year and I'd be over the moon even if we finish seventeenth! Would some people be totally unhappy with that, given how much we've spent? I know Nigel will be aiming higher obviously but could we call seventeenth a success?
hypochondriac Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 Pretty sure that virutally 100 percent of people will be happy with staying up.
Saint Charlie Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 Pretty sure that virutally 100 percent of people will be happy with staying up. Agree. Anything extra is a bonus. Not bothered about cups etc, its just about being a Prem team next year, that way you can start to build a bit.
Saint Garrett Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 Of course a successful season would be staying up...
Mr X Posted 13 December, 2012 Author Posted 13 December, 2012 Pretty sure that virutally 100 percent of people will be happy with staying up. You would have thought so but ........
hypochondriac Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 You would have thought so but ........ But what? I haven't heard anyone be any less than satisfied with our recent form and pleased that we are currently out of the relegation zone.
Colinjb Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 Survival would be success. Any more would be a bonus.
Mr X Posted 13 December, 2012 Author Posted 13 December, 2012 But what? Saints fans being saints fans and all that
hypochondriac Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 Saints fans being saints fans and all that Nah that's pretty much a myth perpetuated by a few people on here. I haven't seen a single poster say they would be dissatisfied at purely survival. I think in this case everyone is realistic.
Mr X Posted 13 December, 2012 Author Posted 13 December, 2012 Nah that's pretty much a myth perpetuated by a few people on here. I haven't seen a single poster say they would be dissatisfied at purely survival. I think in this case everyone is realistic. Agreed you'd have to be pretty bold to claim that surviving wasn't the most important goal for this year. All we have to do is make sure three teams are worse than us, easy right? im thinking we can maybe already put reading down as one of those teams
S-Clarke Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 With the way this season has panned out, of course you'd have to be delighted with 17th. Allows us to kick on in the summer and make sure we're not in this situation again..! I genuinely believe that NC wouldn't have been happy with 17th at the start after a £30m + spend, but I would assume he's in the same place as us now due to our start - just accept it, and get over the line. It'll be a success now.
Mr X Posted 13 December, 2012 Author Posted 13 December, 2012 With the way this season has panned out, of course you'd have to be delighted with 17th. Allows us to kick on in the summer and make sure we're not in this situation again..! I genuinely believe that NC wouldn't have been happy with 17th at the start after a £30m + spend, but I would assume he's in the same place as us now due to our start - just accept it, and get over the line. It'll be a success now. Do you think nc will give nige another crack at it next year if we just scrape 17th this season?
S-Clarke Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 Do you think nc will give nige another crack at it next year if we just scrape 17th this season? I'd hope so. I think we're now showing everyone is adapting, and even though this season will probably still be a struggle to the end - everyone is making a fight of it.
Mr X Posted 13 December, 2012 Author Posted 13 December, 2012 I'd hope so. I think we're now showing everyone is adapting, and even though this season will probably still be a struggle to the end - everyone is making a fight of it. Hopefully cortese's advisors will tell him that being trigger happy isn't always the answer to progression, maybe Chelsea will learn that lesson. I'm confident that should we stay up Adkins will be judged on next season and next season only
hypochondriac Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 We clearly made some mistakes with the transfer policy which has meant we are lower than maybe some people expected. If we put that right next year then we should do a lot better.
Saint Charlie Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 Not really sure why Cortese is always labelled as being "trigger happy" - he has sacked one Manager in 4 seasons. Hardly excessive and proved without doubt to be the right decision. IMO it is because he is a foreign owner and is therefore perceived as ruthless, impatient, not a "football man" etc - all stereotype.
hypochondriac Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 Not really sure why Cortese is always labelled as being "trigger happy" - he has sacked one Manager in 4 seasons. Hardly excessive and proved without doubt to be the right decision. IMO it is because he is a foreign owner and is therefore perceived as ruthless, impatient, not a "football man" etc - all stereotype. Quite a few things have made him out to be ruthless (not always a bad thing.) He also said himself that he is not a football man.
doughnutman Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 Not really sure why Cortese is always labelled as being "trigger happy" - he has sacked one Manager in 4 seasons. Hardly excessive and proved without doubt to be the right decision. IMO it is because he is a foreign owner and is therefore perceived as ruthless, impatient, not a "football man" etc - all stereotype. Two if you count Wotte
Junior Mullet Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 Success for me = comfortable mid-table. Satisfactory = staying up. Over the moon = cup final and staying up. Fantastic = staying up, keeping our best players for next season and making a couple of class additions needed to push on for a top half spot.
Jones91 Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 I think what we spend in January will give us an indication of where Cortese expects us to be.
Smirking_Saint Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 Not really sure why Cortese is always labelled as being "trigger happy" - he has sacked one Manager in 4 seasons. Hardly excessive and proved without doubt to be the right decision. IMO it is because he is a foreign owner and is therefore perceived as ruthless, impatient, not a "football man" etc - all stereotype. A sacking that had its reasons too... No not players wives. As for this season, of course staying up, before the season started I thought we had enough about us to be safe mid table BUT even then I said Id be happy with 17th, now even more so. As for NC I see no reason why he wouldnt stick with Nige next year, he stuck through with him up to now and we seem to be turning a corner.
Window Cleaner Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 But what? I haven't heard anyone be any less than satisfied with our recent form and pleased that we are currently out of the relegation zone. I'm still miffed about the 4 points Gazza threw away, bet Nigel is too, didn't he bawl them out for not beating Swansea ? We're still hovering just above the bottom 3 on a better GD, something that we wouldn't be if we had 4 points more. Still as long as we're 17th or better come the end of the season it will be acceptable.
hypochondriac Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 I'm still miffed about the 4 points Gazza threw away, bet Nigel is too, didn't he bawl them out for not beating Swansea ? We're still hovering just above the bottom 3 on a better GD, something that we wouldn't be if we had 4 points more. Still as long as we're 17th or better come the end of the season it will be acceptable. Which was my point.
jayrivers Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 I think what we spend in January will give us an indication of where Cortese expects us to be. I think January will be consolidation. New CB and Wide player, and maybe a GK. Other than that I think we have enough to see us through. I don't think we need any rash buys again in Jan. Only if it improves on what we have. January is always tricky as clubs can sell at higher prices, and you've had no pre-season to settle players. Then in the summer I would expect us to get a few players that fit out mould of young and potential. The above and staying up would be a fantastic season. As long as we build on what we have!
UpweySaint Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 Success is staying up, gladly take 17th though my nerves might not, anything above that would be a bonus and our young squad looking better is also a real plus. Shaw and JWP being in and around the side is a mark of "success" for our long term goals
Dig Dig Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 Two if you count Wotte Don't think it's fair to count Wotte tbf. Didn't he give him an contract ext as well to ensure that he got a decent pay off as well?
Saint Garrett Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 For as long as NC sees constant improvement in a style which he is demanding, there is no reason why Nigel would get the boot. Ok if we're still making the same fundamental errors which we made at the start of the year at the end of the season, then maybe there is a case. But if we stay up, playing football which is good to watch, and developing the young players, Nigel will have done a fantastic job IMO.
Mr X Posted 13 December, 2012 Author Posted 13 December, 2012 Not really sure why Cortese is always labelled as being "trigger happy" - he has sacked one Manager in 4 seasons. Hardly excessive and proved without doubt to be the right decision. IMO it is because he is a foreign owner and is therefore perceived as ruthless, impatient, not a "football man" etc - all stereotype. Who labelled him trigger happy? No one on here has said that I merely said he will be advised against being another abromovich as that's not the way to go for continuity
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 Pretty sure that virutally 100 percent of people will be happy with staying up. What about all the ninnies that hate the Premiership, want us to not be in the Premiership, but will still b!tch and soak their nappies everytime we lose? Not saying that is you, by the way, but there are some on here with that attitude. Wonder what their take on 17th would be.
Mr X Posted 13 December, 2012 Author Posted 13 December, 2012 What about all the ninnies that hate the Premiership, want us to not be in the Premiership, but will still b!tch and soak their nappies everytime we lose? Not saying that is you, by the way, but there are some on here with that attitude. Wonder what their take on 17th would be. That is indeed true some on here a few weeks back stated that they couldn't wait till we are back in the championship more equal league and enjoyed seeing us win more games, they seem to have gone quiet. I wouldn't see it as too much of a disaster as I can see us bouncing back but most people know the premiership is the place we need to be if we are going to progress as a club and establish are 26 year reign again
itchen_dan Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 (edited) Follow the Stoke model, WBA model, survive for the first 3 seasons and you're golden. The first 3 are the hardest. 1st year all about staying up, 2nd season (2nd season syndrome) is much tougher than first season due to having to buy new players = bigger wages = current players want larger wages = squad harmony and togetherness may drop due to uncertainties with wages etc. 3rd year, improve players slightly more but by this point, other clubs have found you out and know your strengths, weaknesses and style of play. Get through that season then by that point, the entire look of the squad from 3 years prior has changed and the squad is all on similar wages, similar quality and you can begin to kick on and look at cups, european runs etc. The model is in theory quite simple but during this period, you need stability and constant improvement because if you stand still as a club, you will fall back stupidly quickly as competition for places in this division gets tougher and tougher each year. For example: -Newcastle last season, unstoppable at times. Stayed up first season, improved massively 2nd season and got top 6. Remarkable achievement. 3rd season, little to no improvement and they are struggling big time. -Swansea, survived 1st season, improved massively 2nd season, playing incredibly well, they however need to keep improving otherwise next season is extremely tough as everyone now knows how Swansea play. -Wigan. Survived 1st season against all odds. survived 2nd season against all odds. survived 3rd season against all odds etc. Each year they improve the squad ever so slightly but have continued to get better and better, despite scraping survival each season. The key to it? Continuity. Same manager, same philosophy. Very simple but can get quite challenging for everyone at a club to implement and stick by. Edited 13 December, 2012 by itchen_dan
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 Follow the Stoke model, WBA model, survive for the first 3 seasons and you're golden. The first 3 are the hardest. 1st year all about staying up, 2nd season (2nd season syndrome) is much tougher than first season due to having to buy new players = bigger wages = current players want larger wages = squad harmony and togetherness may drop due to uncertainties with wages etc. 3rd year, improve players slightly more but by this point, other clubs have found you out and know your strengths, weaknesses and style of play. Get through that season then by that point, the entire look of the squad from 3 years prior has changed and the squad is all on similar wages, similar quality and you can begin to kick on and look at cups, european runs etc. The model is in theory quite simple but during this period, you need stability and constant improvement because if you stand still as a club, you will fall back stupidly quickly as competition for places in this division gets tougher and tougher each year. For example: -Newcastle last season, unstoppable at times. Stayed up first season, improved massively 2nd season and got top 6. Remarkable achievement. 3rd season, little to no improvement and they are struggling big time. -Swansea, survived 1st season, improved massively 2nd season, playing incredibly well, they however need to keep improving otherwise next season is extremely tough as everyone now knows how Swansea play. -Wigan. Survived 1st season against all odds. survived 2nd season against all odds. survived 3rd season against all odds etc. Each year they improve the squad ever so slightly but have continued to get better and better, despite scraping survival each season. The key to it? Continuity. Same manager, same philosophy. Very simple but can get quite challenging for everyone at a club to implement and stick by. Have Wigan not had a few managers before Martinez though? Jewell, Hutchinson (?), Bruce, was there more?
This Charming Man Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 Plenty on here predicted top half finishes at the beginning of the season (Mainly because Swansea and Noriwch did so well, so it was a given we would as well). I stated that finishing 17th would be brilliant but was lambasted by some on here for being negative. Like I said at the time, I'm not negative, just realistic and I still stick by that. Finishing 17th would be a brilliant effort.
Thedelldays Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 After the money spent. Not staying up would be very poor Worse teams, full of players we would laugh at, with managers who we think we think are terrible have come up and stayed up first go. With a fraction of the money spent!
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 Staying up is the bare minimum this Season, and people need to realise this. One problem I see with a lot of people on this forum (the "I would prefer to go down with Adkins" crowd) is that I don't think people realise how damaging going down would be. Not only the drop in income, but the loss of our best and also favourite players. I could see us losing Lallana, Lambert, Ramirez, Schneiderlin, Clyne, Puncheon, Shaw if we go down. That, imo, would be an utter disaster after spending £30m on strengthening the side. Catastrophic.
Professor Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 Staying up is the minimum, since relgation is a totally unsuccessful season but for the season to be a 'success', in my opinion, needs more than just avoiding relgation. It needs to be an outcome that looks respectable with a promise of more to come, far enough up the table that friends supporting other clubs would see us as having arrived. Given our bad start, it can't really be better than about 10th, but I'd see anything above 14th as successful now as that would mean we would have avoided the end-of-season relegation scrap. I still see the key to that a strengthening of the back four, especially as we have virtually no cover at CB and all the uncertainty about who plays in Goal.
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 Staying up is the bare minimum this Season, and people need to realise this. One problem I see with a lot of people on this forum (the "I would prefer to go down with Adkins" crowd) is that I don't think people realise how damaging going down would be. Not only the drop in income, but the loss of our best and also favourite players. I could see us losing Lallana, Lambert, Ramirez, Schneiderlin, Clyne, Puncheon, Shaw if we go down. That, imo, would be an utter disaster after spending £30m on strengthening the side. Catastrophic. Considering Wolves got £20+m for Jarvis & Fletcher, I would imagine we would probably get close to, if not more than £30m from these guys were we to go do. Obviously, Puncheon would most likely be a freebie.
SNOWY Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 Target 40 points & staying up for me. After succesive promotions anything more would be a lot to ask. I like to think we will improve as the season progresses & finish as a better team than when we started. A win against Sunderland & we are on target.
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 Considering Wolves got £20+m for Jarvis & Fletcher, I would imagine we would probably get close to, if not more than £30m from these guys were we to go do. Obviously, Puncheon would most likely be a freebie. That's not really the point. Yeah, we'd get good money for them, but it would be pretty gutting having the majority of our starting lineup removed from us. We'd then have to build a new team, with a new Manager (he'd be sacked if we went down imo) and new tactics to learn in the toughest league in the World.
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 That's not really the point. Yeah, we'd get good money for them, but it would be pretty gutting having the majority of our starting lineup removed from us. We'd then have to build a new team, with a new Manager (he'd be sacked if we went down imo) and new tactics to learn in the toughest league in the World. Ok, I agree with you on this. Specially the likes of Lallana, Morgan & Lambert who have been instrumental in taking us from L1 to the Prem. As an aside, do you think the "Down With Adkins" argument has some merits here? Like you say, a new set of players, tactics, set up, staff manager would be more damaging than perhaps just attempting to patch holes in the squad whilst keeping a similar set up?
Ivan Katalinic's 'tache Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 Stay up as the minimum. Continue to develop the squad in Jan so its a comfortable run in & the group can hit the ground running next term. A decent Cup run if it doesn't impair our League performance.
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 Stay up as the minimum. Continue to develop the squad in Jan so its a comfortable run in & the group can hit the ground running next term. A decent Cup run if it doesn't impair our League performance. Certainly merits in this. Much as I would love a cup run, I would trade a 3rd round humping from Chelsea for guaranteed survival in a heartbeat.
UpweySaint Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 Ok going down would be a dissapointment BUT perspective. Lambert would stay, his value to us combined with his age he would ikely be overpriced for over clubs. Lallana is likely to stay. He's stuck with us through worse! Ok we might lose a couple but we'd reinforce, it's normal and natural. Financially we'd be ok and could hold onto plenty within reason. Worse case we see more playing time for the young players on the fringe maybe. But we'd come back up sharp. I am very much in the "I'd prefer to go down with Adkins" crowd. I have every faith that long term he's the man to take us onto the next level. He's learning as a manager and will one day possibly be brilliant!
This Charming Man Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 I am very much in the "I'd prefer to go down with Adkins" crowd. I have every faith that long term he's the man to take us onto the next level. He's learning as a manager and will one day possibly be brilliant! Sadly there would be no chance of him staying if we were to go down, IMO. Being one of the biggest spenders in Europe and still getting relegated would leave NC with little choice than to sack him, unfortunately.
Thedelldays Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 How many teams go down and bounce straight back with the same manager Hardly ever does it happen. Ever
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 How many teams go down and bounce straight back with the same manager Hardly ever does it happen. Ever Did Bruce do it with Birmingham? And actually, do they do it with McCleish as well? Could be wrong on both of those.
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 Ok, I agree with you on this. Specially the likes of Lallana, Morgan & Lambert who have been instrumental in taking us from L1 to the Prem. As an aside, do you think the "Down With Adkins" argument has some merits here? Like you say, a new set of players, tactics, set up, staff manager would be more damaging than perhaps just attempting to patch holes in the squad whilst keeping a similar set up? I do agree it would have merits yes, especially due to the Managers we'd be able to attract when in the Championship.
KelvinsRightGlove Posted 13 December, 2012 Posted 13 December, 2012 I do agree it would have merits yes, especially due to the Managers we'd be able to attract when in the Championship. I've said previously in discussions about removing Adkins (prior to the upturn in form), that one of the many reasons I am sceptical to sacking him is that I just don't see who is out there at the moment that would offer a better alternative (that is a realistic target). As you point out, this would be exacerbated if we were to go down.
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