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Push to bring back standing at games


buctootim
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Thirteen clubs are backing a call to trial re-introducing terracing - which is something I'd like to see. Im surprised more clubs havent joined in so far. You tend to get much better atmosphere on terraces and there are lots of ways to make standing safe. Bring it back or are memories of Hillsborough / Heysel too much?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20679867

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For safe standing to come in we've got to lose the notion of a "terrace". That evokes some dreadful memories and implies a lack of safety.

 

Safe standing is really this:

 

400px-Safe_standing_area_fitted_with_rail_seats.jpg

 

Standing areas that ensure there can be no crushing at all, as there is a safety barrier per row. And they can be converted to seats for all seater requirements (or even for a half time sit down).

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For safe standing to come in we've got to lose the notion of a "terrace". That evokes some dreadful memories and implies a lack of safety.

 

Safe standing is really this:

 

400px-Safe_standing_area_fitted_with_rail_seats.jpg

 

Standing areas that ensure there can be no crushing at all, as there is a safety barrier per row. And they can be converted to seats for all seater requirements (or even for a half time sit down).

 

Or we could all meet on a saturday night when we are away and we could make a massive den and have a sleep over?

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Current terracing design is not suitable for standing, and the cost of implementing it would probably be prohibitive for most clubs.

If it does come in though, I'll stick with the seat, it was fine when I used to go as a young man with my mates, but I now go to footy with 3 kids & a 70 year-old, I know the kids will be safe & the old man can get out easily so he can get to the loo in time.

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For safe standing to come in we've got to lose the notion of a "terrace". That evokes some dreadful memories and implies a lack of safety.

 

Safe standing is really this:

 

400px-Safe_standing_area_fitted_with_rail_seats.jpg

 

Standing areas that ensure there can be no crushing at all, as there is a safety barrier per row. And they can be converted to seats for all seater requirements (or even for a half time sit down).

just basically, adding a hand rail behind the seats....looks simple to do

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Current terracing design is not suitable for standing, and the cost of implementing it would probably be prohibitive for most clubs.

If it does come in though, I'll stick with the seat, it was fine when I used to go as a young man with my mates, but I now go to footy with 3 kids & a 70 year-old, I know the kids will be safe & the old man can get out easily so he can get to the loo in time.

How so? The incline of the concrete steps is the same, as the standing seats have to be able to be converted to seating for some games. What other ways (particularly for modern stadia) are current terraces not suitable?

 

I understand the cost part; there's no tangible benefit for a club in terms of direct revenue increase (i.e. they can't get in any more people than the current capacity) and they have the cost of installation. I don't understand why you say the design is unsuitable?

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How so? The incline of the concrete steps is the same, as the standing seats have to be able to be converted to seating for some games. What other ways (particularly for modern stadia) are current terraces not suitable?

 

I understand the cost part; there's no tangible benefit for a club in terms of direct revenue increase (i.e. they can't get in any more people than the current capacity) and they have the cost of installation. I don't understand why you say the design is unsuitable?

how come that (i think) in dortmund...their capacity changes when they play CL games due to the requirement for all seating...?

is it different in germany that what would happen here?

 

 

edit...for league games..dortmund have a capacity over 80k..which is reduced for international/CL/UEFA games to 65k as it has to be all seater..???

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The outcome of the Taylor report was odd, because it still allows clubs like Exeter to have stands like this in 2012..

 

True, but is that not more of a cost thing? In such that forcing every league club to scrap terraces and install seating would potentially have put them out of business? And I also imagine that the numbers allowed onto the terraces these days and the stricter stewarding mitigate it somewhat. Its a fair point though.

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The outcome of the Taylor report was odd, because it still allows clubs like Exeter to have stands like this in 2012...

 

The whole report was a bit odd. People died at Hillsborough because a gate was opened and fans surged forward down basically a funnel into a stand where there was nowhere for the additional people to go as the perimeter fencing stopped people escaping and releasing the pressure. It was the fencing which was the killer and Hillsborough would still have likely happened even with seats in place.

Edited by buctootim
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how come that (i think) in dortmund...their capacity changes when they play CL games due to the requirement for all seating...?

is it different in germany that what would happen here?

 

Well I'm no expert on it at all; but I believe the point of the system being proposed on the trial basis is that one "seat" takes up the same space that an existing one does. Which makes sense really. How Dortmund do it, I really don't know.

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Well I'm no expert on it at all; but I believe the point of the system being proposed on the trial basis is that one "seat" takes up the same space that an existing one does. Which makes sense really. How Dortmund do it, I really don't know.

ah I see....yeah, just read that dortmund heavily reduce (by over 15k) for non domestic games...

 

it seems, over there, they are able to bring in large numbers in the standing areas...

 

could never see that washing over here for a very long time though

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ah I see....yeah, just read that dortmund heavily reduce (by over 15k) for non domestic games...

 

it seems, over there, they are able to bring in large numbers in the standing areas...

 

could never see that washing over here for a very long time though

 

OK, have a look at this pic from the BBC article:

 

_64687820_safe_standing1.jpg

 

It looks like with standing there are two people (one in front of the other) for each "seat" space. And it looks like there is an extra step in there to allow one to see over the other's head.

 

Not sure I agree with that system; while there's very little risk it does seem more "dangerous" having one in front of the other rather than just one standing space to one seat width.

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OK, have a look at this pic from the BBC article:

 

_64687820_safe_standing1.jpg

 

It looks like with standing there are two people (one in front of the other) for each "seat" space. And it looks like there is an extra step in there to allow one to see over the other's head.

 

Not sure I agree with that system; while there's very little risk it does seem more dangerous having one in front of the other rather than just one standing space to one seat width.

in dortmund and I guess, germany...the seats are locked in place so they cant be used at all for domestic games....this will allow extra people in...which is what I assume is sought after here.....that would be the hard thing to get past IMO...even though, it happens constantly anyway near away fans etc

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OK, have a look at this pic from the BBC article:

 

_64687820_safe_standing1.jpg

 

It looks like with standing there are two people (one in front of the other) for each "seat" space. And it looks like there is an extra step in there to allow one to see over the other's head.

 

Not sure I agree with that system; while there's very little risk it does seem more "dangerous" having one in front of the other rather than just one standing space to one seat width.

 

Yeah and I think that's what the guy meant when he said current stands are unsuitable. For safe standing you need lots of quite shallow steps. We have fewer, steeper steps in most all seater stadiums. It's the type of thing that might be feasible if we were redeveloping the ground anyway, but otherwise the cost would be prohibitive.

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I'm all in favour of any system that allows fans the choice of whether they sit or stand to watch the game.

 

The notion that terracing is unsafe is nonsense, after all if it was unsafe, it would be rather negligent on the part of the government and football authorities to allow terracing in Leagues One and Two where you do still get reasonably big crowds. Who is to say that the life of a Liverpool fan is more important than the life of a Burton Albion fan? That's effectively what the current law states.

 

Crowd management techniques have improved immeasurably since Hillsborough happened, and as has already been said, it wasn't the terracing itself that was the cause of the disaster, which so many people still seem unable to get their head around. That new panel show on Sky, the Footballers Football Show, discussed the issue a couple of weeks ago and all it did was demonstrate how ill-informed everyone within the game is. Both Ray Wilkins and Paul Elliott dismissed the idea out of hand, using Hillsborough as a prime example, the fact that the Premier League is watched by millions around the world as a result of the safe and family atmospheres around the grounds these days :facepalm: David Jones, the presenter, looked like he was banging his head against a brick wall whenever he tried to introduce any reason into the discussion.

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You can get roughly 3 people standing to every 2 seats in the current safe standing system used in Germany. Terracing did not kill the 96 at Hillsborough, a mixture of poor policing and fans being penned in like animals behind 8ft fences killed the 96.

 

It allows German clubs like Hamburg, Dortmand and Shalke to charge standing fans far less and ensure future generations get access to the ground at an accessible rate before they get fat and bald and decide they want a quiet life in the seats and pay more for the privilege. I would personally like to see the entire Chapel end as Safe Standing, I believe Cortese has said before he wants an "end" of home support, and with potentially more paying fans coming in you'd hope he'd support it. Actually worth lobbying for us to support this really.

 

Absolute no brainer.

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How so? The incline of the concrete steps is the same, as the standing seats have to be able to be converted to seating for some games. What other ways (particularly for modern stadia) are current terraces not suitable?

 

I understand the cost part; there's no tangible benefit for a club in terms of direct revenue increase (i.e. they can't get in any more people than the current capacity) and they have the cost of installation. I don't understand why you say the design is unsuitable?

 

I'm happy to be proved wrong on this, but if I recall my college days correctly, modern all-seater stadia are steeper than traditional terracing. I've had a root around the office & can't find anything to prove it either way, but I'm 90% sure I'm right. But if you take St Marys as an example, the step down is about 450mm and about 600mm wide, a gradient of 1:1.3, I reckon the steps on the old Milton Rd terrace were something like 1:4 (75mm rise & a going of 300mm). Like I say, happy to be proved wrong, but when I'm jumping around like a screaming banshee when SRL scores his first prem hat-trick, I'd rather fall 3 inches, than 18 ;).

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Yeah and I think that's what the guy meant when he said current stands are unsuitable. For safe standing you need lots of quite shallow steps. We have fewer, steeper steps in most all seater stadiums. It's the type of thing that might be feasible if we were redeveloping the ground anyway, but otherwise the cost would be prohibitive.

 

Yep, agreed.

 

Personally I think that'll be a step too far (pun completely intended) for the Football authorities. Anything more than one seated space = one standing space will be met with vociferous opposition. Safety experts will demonstrate that the two step approach carries slightly more risk than having everyone seated (even though we all know that people just stand anyway). Critics against it will claim that its much easier for the rows to become bunched in some areas and create a higher danger.

 

And if I'm honest, I think if we're going to bring in safe standing it should be on a one seated space = one standing space basis.

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The outcome of the Taylor report was odd, because it still allows clubs like Exeter to have stands like this in 2012...

 

Exeter%20City%20-%20Big%20Bank.jpg?1342022850

The Taylor Report was understandably a bit of a knee jerk reaction to a horrific tragedy. Getting rid of terraces across the top two divisions wasn't necessary, such a great pity a large part of our national game's heritage has now gone for good.
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I'm happy to be proved wrong on this, but if I recall my college days correctly, modern all-seater stadia are steeper than traditional terracing. I've had a root around the office & can't find anything to prove it either way, but I'm 90% sure I'm right. But if you take St Marys as an example, the step down is about 450mm and about 600mm wide, a gradient of 1:1.3, I reckon the steps on the old Milton Rd terrace were something like 1:4 (75mm rise & a going of 300mm). Like I say, happy to be proved wrong, but when I'm jumping around like a screaming banshee when SRL scores his first prem hat-trick, I'd rather fall 3 inches, than 18 ;).
I think you're right that *officially* the gradients aren't acceptable for Terracing/standing, but on the basis that people jump around when we score in these areas, I don't see what difference it make in practice.
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I'm happy to be proved wrong on this, but if I recall my college days correctly, modern all-seater stadia are steeper than traditional terracing. I've had a root around the office & can't find anything to prove it either way, but I'm 90% sure I'm right. But if you take St Marys as an example, the step down is about 450mm and about 600mm wide, a gradient of 1:1.3, I reckon the steps on the old Milton Rd terrace were something like 1:4 (75mm rise & a going of 300mm). Like I say, happy to be proved wrong, but when I'm jumping around like a screaming banshee when SRL scores his first prem hat-trick, I'd rather fall 3 inches, than 18 ;).

 

OK. As said previously though, it appears one extra design criteria is an additional step per row being required. I'd have thought that the incline shouldn't be an issue as the ground still has to pass the requirements of an all seater stadia when the convertible seats are locked into place.

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in dortmund and I guess, germany...the seats are locked in place so they cant be used at all for domestic games....this will allow extra people in...which is what I assume is sought after here.....that would be the hard thing to get past IMO...even though, it happens constantly anyway near away fans etc
Exactly. People squeeze in with their mates when standing in seated areas, it'd actually be safer for them to do it in a terrace.
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Thanks for the picture Kraken. Actually I thought it was obvious that you could almost double up the numbers as Jackanory says, due to the clearly visible shallow step. Presumably people arrange themselves something like this: [if the formatting works..]

 

0 0 0 0 0 0 0

 

0 0 0 0 0 0

 

I'm old enough, although probably not rich enough, to want to sit, with the option of standing when the game gets exciting but I might consider standing if the saving was significant. I've done it often enough before and I'm not decrepit!

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I'm all in favour of any system that allows fans the choice of whether they sit or stand to watch the game.

 

The notion that terracing is unsafe is nonsense, after all if it was unsafe, it would be rather negligent on the part of the government and football authorities to allow terracing in Leagues One and Two where you do still get reasonably big crowds. Who is to say that the life of a Liverpool fan is more important than the life of a Burton Albion fan? That's effectively what the current law states.

 

Crowd management techniques have improved immeasurably since Hillsborough happened, and as has already been said, it wasn't the terracing itself that was the cause of the disaster, which so many people still seem unable to get their head around. That new panel show on Sky, the Footballers Football Show, discussed the issue a couple of weeks ago and all it did was demonstrate how ill-informed everyone within the game is. Both Ray Wilkins and Paul Elliott dismissed the idea out of hand, using Hillsborough as a prime example, the fact that the Premier League is watched by millions around the world as a result of the safe and family atmospheres around the grounds these days :facepalm: David Jones, the presenter, looked like he was banging his head against a brick wall whenever he tried to introduce any reason into the discussion.

 

This.

I don't understand the mindset of people who think it was completely due to standing?

You can see why it is a potential political minefield, and the Hillsborough family support group, are doing everything they can to stop any progress being made. I of course understand why it would provoke emotion for them, but i don't understand their logic in being so hostile towards it?

Surely it was fencing which was the real killer? And really that should have been done away with after the Bradford fire 4 years earlier.

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Just checked, and the actual ratio is 1800 standing to every 1000 sitting. How many seats in the Chapel for example, 5000? That would become 9000 standing and would make a serious racket if sold out!

4261 seats at the moment, but the logistics of converting the Chapel end could be a bit of a problem because of the location of the raised disabled sections.

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Just checked, and the actual ratio is 1800 standing to every 1000 sitting. How many seats in the Chapel for example, 5000? That would become 9000 standing and would make a serious racket if sold out!

 

It would also probably solve our short term ideas of stadium expansion too...

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As TDD has alluded to Dortmund manage to have 25k people standing in one terrace for domestic home matches. You don't hear of any problems with that. I'm not sure how to post photos directly into the page but this shot of the terrace when considerably less than full suggest that most of it isn't the "safe-standing" format shown earlier in the thread. I've no idea how they convert this to seating for CL matches. I believe the top third of the terrace is the "safe standing" style with barriers every second step.

 

http://ligalinks3.beepworld.de/files/westfalenstadion3.jpg

 

The main reason the police would be against it is that seating makes it easier to keep track of supporters and tends to break up group of likeminded fans who would more easily be able to congregate on a terrace.

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immense....including all 3 CL games..would never ever happen over here though

 

You're right, it's a crying shame. It has meant that German clubs have been relatively uncompetitive in Europe but great for fans and it looks like they are starting to make a lot more money out of sponsorship and TV deals now so are catching up on the English teams.

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The Taylor Report was understandably a bit of a knee jerk reaction to a horrific tragedy. Getting rid of terraces across the top two divisions wasn't necessary, such a great pity a large part of our national game's heritage has now gone for good.

The Taylor Report itself stated that standing in itself was not intrinsically unsafe. It was the Government of the day (Tories/John Major) that decided no standing was to be allowed.

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You're right, it's a crying shame. It has meant that German clubs have been relatively uncompetitive in Europe but great for fans and it looks like they are starting to make a lot more money out of sponsorship and TV deals now so are catching up on the English teams.
Not sure if its the reason they've been a bit uncompetitive in Europe in previous years, more to do with their attitude to debt compared to some other footballing countries. Overall match day income is huge over there and they're very good at maximising merchandising, food, beer etc.
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As TDD has alluded to Dortmund manage to have 25k people standing in one terrace for domestic home matches. You don't hear of any problems with that. I'm not sure how to post photos directly into the page but this shot of the terrace when considerably less than full suggest that most of it isn't the "safe-standing" format shown earlier in the thread. I've no idea how they convert this to seating for CL matches. I believe the top third of the terrace is the "safe standing" style with barriers every second step.

 

http://ligalinks3.beepworld.de/files/westfalenstadion3.jpg

 

The main reason the police would be against it is that seating makes it easier to keep track of supporters and tends to break up group of likeminded fans who would more easily be able to congregate on a terrace.

What they have in Germany isn't, in the main, what we consider 'safe standing'. It's really not too far removed from traditional, old fashioned terracing .
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