egg Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 There is absolutely no reason why the church should have any say in what marriage is defined as. The Church does not own marriage, and hasn't for quite a while now. I would suggest to the Church that if they want to still be around in any meaningful form in 50-100 years that they need to move with the times and reflect modern attitudes. They already have, hence gay couples cannot marry and have the same standing as straight couples. The current debate (well it should be but it has been hijacked) is whether civil [partnership ceremonies should be allowed to take place in a church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 Im not sure what your take on mulitcultualism is and i cant be arsed to wade through your posts to find it, but if you are pro it then you really should celebrate the fact that parents can choose if they wish their child to be educated in a school which reflects their faith. But why hijack a thread about a particular type of equality with a wish to discuss the wider issue of mulitcultualism generally? If a person recognises the right to freedom of religion, for example, it does not follow that they support gay marriage in its' true form and/or in a religious setting. People have differing views on different issues. Religious education and attitude to gay marriages do not overlap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 No-one here would try and stop interracial marriages. If you believe, as I do, that any relationship between two consenting adults has exactly the same value regardless of sex, there is no argument here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 But why hijack a thread about a particular type of equality with a wish to discuss the wider issue of mulitcultualism generally? If a person recognises the right to freedom of religion, for example, it does not follow that they support gay marriage in its' true form and/or in a religious setting. People have differing views on different issues. Religious education and attitude to gay marriages do not overlap. Unfortunately it's the way the thread developed after BTF raised the issue or religion in schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 No-one here would try and stop interracial marriages. If you believe, as I do, that any relationship between two consenting adults has exactly the same value regardless of sex, there is no argument here. Why do they want the blessing of the church though? Why not be happy with what they have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 Why do they want the blessing of the church though? Why not be happy with what they have? Because there are plenty of religious people who are gay, because believe it or not, it isn't a choice. Those people would like to married with the blessing of the faith they were raised in and that is absolutely fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 Because there are plenty of religious people who are gay, because believe it or not, it isn't a choice. Those people would like to married with the blessing of the faith they were raised in and that is absolutely fair enough. Really? are you speaking for them Andy? You know this the case do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 Why do they want the blessing of the church though? Why not be happy with what they have? Why not? Why discriminate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 Really? are you speaking for them Andy? You know this the case do you? Silly answer to a good post. Why not respond to the points he makes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 Why not? Why discriminate? It's not though is it. Gay people can have a civil partnerships, why not celebrate that fact. Why not be proud of what you have and celebrate that being your thing, rather than wanting something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 why would anyone who is gay want to get married in a church when they dont even agree with their sexuality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 Silly answer to a good post. Why not respond to the points he makes. Is it? He appears to be speaking for gay people and what they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 (edited) why would anyone who is gay want to get married in a church when they dont even agree with their sexuality Quite. We keep being told the church needs to move with the times. Well if it's that arachic and bigotted why do they wants it's blessing? Edited 10 December, 2012 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 Quite. We keep being told the church needs to move with the times. Well if it's that arachic and bigotted why do they wants it's blessing? Some churches do agree with the idea of same sex marriage. All this legislation is seeking to do is to offer same sex couples the same rights as heterosexual couples IF THAT CHURCH AGREES. I don't believe in marriage or in any religion but I can see that some people who do want to celebrate their faith(s) in a religious ceremony and I don't see what the problem is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 Some churches do agree with the idea of same sex marriage. All this legislation is seeking to do is to offer same sex couples the same rights as heterosexual couples IF THAT CHURCH AGREES. I don't believe in marriage or in any religion but I can see that some people who do want to celebrate their faith(s) in a religious ceremony and I don't see what the problem is. But why not celebrate what you've got? Be proud of your civil partnership, use it in a positve way to express your homosexuality and how happy and comfortable they are with it. Why do they want to be the same at hetrosexual couples? It might lead to hetosexuals wanting civil partnerships instead of marriage!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 But why not celebrate what you've got? Be proud of your civil partnership, use it in a positve way to express your homosexuality and how happy and comfortable they are with it. Why do they want to be the same at hetrosexual couples? It might lead to hetosexuals wanting civil partnerships instead of marriage!!! Full and clear explanation of the issue: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18407568 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 Full and clear explanation of the issue: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18407568 I dont need a BBC report to explain it, i'm fully aware. What i'm saying is why cant gay people by happy with civil partnerships and use it as celebration of their sexuality, rather than considering it in some way a lesser relationship? why not be proud and say to the world "We're gay, we dont do marriages, Civil partnerships are our thing!" rather than having the chip on the shoulder that your relationship as a homosexual is in someway worth less than that of a hetrosexual person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 Is it? He appears to be speaking for gay people and what they want. Just assume he's correct, then respond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 I dont need a BBC report to explain it, i'm fully aware. What i'm saying is why cant gay people by happy with civil partnerships and use it as celebration of their sexuality, rather than considering it in some way a lesser relationship? why not be proud and say to the world "We're gay, we dont do marriages, Civil partnerships are our thing!" rather than having the chip on the shoulder that your relationship as a homosexual is in someway worth less than that of a hetrosexual person. Just answer one question. Why should gay couples not be afforded the ability to have the same "marital" status as straight couple. Please don't respond with a question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 Just assume he's correct, then respond. It's difficult to assume that someone is correct when they are an 18 year old hetrosexual talking about why gay people want to gay married and appearing to speak on their behalf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 Some churches do agree with the idea of same sex marriage. All this legislation is seeking to do is to offer same sex couples the same rights as heterosexual couples IF THAT CHURCH AGREES. I don't believe in marriage or in any religion but I can see that some people who do want to celebrate their faith(s) in a religious ceremony and I don't see what the problem is. so, if a church is against homosexuals getting married at their gaff...then they wont have to I still dont know why a gay person would insist on getting married in a place that does not agree with them....as much as I doubt the local mosque would allow me to get married at theirs...nor would I want to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 why would anyone who is gay want to get married in a church when they dont even agree with their sexuality That's one point. But why not allow gay people to actually get married? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 I dont need a BBC report to explain it, i'm fully aware. What i'm saying is why cant gay people by happy with civil partnerships and use it as celebration of their sexuality, rather than considering it in some way a lesser relationship? why not be proud and say to the world "We're gay, we dont do marriages, Civil partnerships are our thing!" rather than having the chip on the shoulder that your relationship as a homosexual is in someway worth less than that of a hetrosexual person. Shame you didn't bother to read the link because it explains why some same sex couples want to get married in a religious ceremony. I know you'll find this hard to believe, but some gay people have profound belief in their faith. Why shouldn't they have the same freedom as anyone else to participate in a religious ceremony. Better that they have this right than a good number of heterosexual couples getting married in church when they have no faith at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 It's difficult to assume that someone is correct when they are an 18 year old hetrosexual talking about why gay people want to gay married and appearing to speak on their behalf. Some people are able to understand more than one point of view. A person doesn't need to be gay to understand why some gay people have this desire to be married in a church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 It's difficult to assume that someone is correct when they are an 18 year old hetrosexual talking about why gay people want to gay married and appearing to speak on their behalf. You still won't answer what he says! Do you agree that gay people should be allowed to marry with the blessing of their faith? It's a yes or no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 Shame you didn't bother to read the link because it explains why some same sex couples want to get married in a religious ceremony. I know you'll find this hard to believe, but some gay people have profound belief in their faith. Why shouldn't they have the same freedom as anyone else to participate in a religious ceremony. Better that they have this right than a good number of heterosexual couples getting married in church when they have no faith at all! because the church does not agree with them...what is the point in a religious ceremony, based on make believe and faith be done is completely false and pretend circumstances what is the point in a gay couple forcing the local church to bless their wedding....how would it be a blessing if the local vicar does not believe what he is doing. like I said...I might campaign to get my local mosque (not that there are any in plymouth) to marry me and my missus...for no other reason than because I want them to... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 You still won't answer what he says! Do you agree that gay people should be allowed to marry with the blessing of their faith? It's a yes or no. I believe to be blessed..you have to be blessed by someone who believes in you (which is what the whole faith thingy is about...belief)...what is the point if that person is being forced to bless you and really does not mean it... its like at school...saying you will keep a promise but with your fingers crossed behind your back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 Just answer one question. Why should gay couples not be afforded the ability to have the same "marital" status as straight couple. Please don't respond with a question. Im not saying they should be. However if i was gay and the religion i may have been raised in didn't approve of my sexuality, then i would no longer be part of that religion so wouldn't want it's blessing. Surely this makes perfect sense. You might not be able to choose your sexuality but you can choose your religion. I dont understand why you would want to be part of something that didn't approve of you and then by default want the approval of something that you weren't part of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 You still won't answer what he says! Do you agree that gay people should be allowed to marry with the blessing of their faith? It's a yes or no. Why would you want to be part of a religion which didn't approve of the way you conducted your life? WHy would you be a devout *insert name of religion* if you did not live by their principle? And unless you were a devout *insert name of relgion* why do you care if they bless you or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 I believe to be blessed..you have to be blessed by someone who believes in you (which is what the whole faith thingy is about...belief)...what is the point if that person is being forced to bless you and really does not mean it... its like at school...saying you will keep a promise but with your fingers crossed behind your back The question was to Turkish who has ducked questions and valid points. The point is about choice. Gay people should have the same choices as straight people. If they want to get "married" in a setting that doesn't support them then they should have that choice. On the flip side, many people get married in a church but have no religious beliefs and/or do not practice any. It's a choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 Im not sure what your take on mulitcultualism is and i cant be arsed to wade through your posts to find it, but if you are pro it then you really should celebrate the fact that parents can choose if they wish their child to be educated in a school which reflects their faith. Yawn, at first I thought you were pretending to be thick but now I wonder if I gave you too much credit. For the last time: If parents want a religious education then that is fine by me but it should be up to the parents or religious institution to fund it themselves, not the state. State education should be secular with an element of teaching about religions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 Im not saying they should be. However if i was gay and the religion i may have been raised in didn't approve of my sexuality, then i would no longer be part of that religion so wouldn't want it's blessing. Surely this makes perfect sense. You might not be able to choose your sexuality but you can choose your religion. I dont understand why you would want to be part of something that didn't approve of you and then by default want the approval of something that you weren't part of. See my threads above. The relevant question is "why not" rather tha"why". It's a simple position of equality of status and equality of choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 The question was to Turkish who has ducked questions and valid points. The point is about choice. Gay people should have the same choices as straight people. If they want to get "married" in a setting that doesn't support them then they should have that choice. On the flip side, many people get married in a church but have no religious beliefs and/or do not practice any. It's a choice. I haven't ducked the valid points. Its a very simple notion. Why would you stay in a religion that didn't approve of your way of life? Why would you stay in a religion where you did not live by their moral code? If you dont do the later then you clearly aren't devout, so why do you care if you have their blessing or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 See my threads above. The relevant question is "why not" rather tha"why". It's a simple position of equality of status and equality of choice. why not...as some of the people just dont want to do it..... does a church ceremony give you more legal rights as a couple than a civil partnership..? what about the rights of the vicar who may be forced to look at pair people that disgust him...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 Yawn, at first I thought you were pretending to be thick but now I wonder if I gave you too much credit. For the last time: If parents want a religious education then that is fine by me but it should be up to the parents or religious institution to fund it themselves, not the state. State education should be secular with an element of teaching about religions. Why the personal insults? Thats your view because religion isn't important to you, but it is to a lot of people. Now think of the bigger picture, not just your little corner of Hampshire of whereever you live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 See my threads above. The relevant question is "why not" rather tha"why". It's a simple position of equality of status and equality of choice. So why cant civil partnerships be viewed equally and of the same status? Who views them as a lesser relationship? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 So why cant civil partnerships be viewed equally and of the same status? Who views them as a lesser relationship? serious question...are straight people allowed a civil partnership also, what is the difference...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 because the church does not agree with them...what is the point in a religious ceremony, based on make believe and faith be done is completely false and pretend circumstances what is the point in a gay couple forcing the local church to bless their wedding....how would it be a blessing if the local vicar does not believe what he is doing. like I said...I might campaign to get my local mosque (not that there are any in plymouth) to marry me and my missus...for no other reason than because I want them to... Oh FFS Jamie, at least read the comments and try to understand them before you start repeating your mantra. Some officials in some churches do support the idea of same sex marriage. Also, with the planned legislation, no same sex couple will be able to force a church to officiate at their wedding. There will probably be an opt-out clause so that no priest is forced to do something he doesn't agree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 (edited) serious question...are straight people allowed a civil partnership also, what is the difference...? 3Eligibility. heres the legislation of it from the civil partnership act 2004. (1)Two people are not eligible to register as civil partners of each other if— . (a)they are not of the same sex, . (b)either of them is already a civil partner or lawfully married, . ©either of them is under 16, or . (d)they are within prohibited degrees of relationship. The Act grants civil partnerships in the United Kingdom with rights and responsibilities identical to civil marriage It seems straight people aren't allowed them. I demand they are. So who sees them as a lesser relationship and why aren't straight couples allowed civil partnerships? Edited 10 December, 2012 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 Oh FFS Jamie, at least read the comments and try to understand them before you start repeating your mantra. Some officials in some churches do support the idea of same sex marriage. Also, with the planned legislation, no same sex couple will be able to force a church to officiate at their wedding. There will probably be an opt-out clause so that no priest is forced to do something he doesn't agree with. I did read it...if churches will do it..then great..if they dont...then also great...yes..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 Why the personal insults? Thats your view because religion isn't important to you, but it is to a lot of people. Now think of the bigger picture, not just your little corner of Hampshire of whereever you live. What point are you trying to make now? I believe in secular state eduction for the whole of the UK not just my corner of Hampshire (well done for picking up on the clue!) and think that a secular approach to education would benefit a lot of countries right around the world. That's my personal opinion, I'm well aware that many would disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 3Eligibility. heres the legislation of it from the civil partnership act 2004. (1)Two people are not eligible to register as civil partners of each other if— . (a)they are not of the same sex, . (b)either of them is already a civil partner or lawfully married, . ©either of them is under 16, or . (d)they are within prohibited degrees of relationship. The Act grants civil partnerships in the United Kingdom with rights and responsibilities identical to civil marriage It seems straight people aren't allowed them. I demand they are. So who sees them as a lesser relationship and why aren't straight couples allowed civil partnerships? Quite, and you also demand that gay people should be allowed to have a marriage in a civial ceremony right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 (edited) What point are you trying to make now? I believe in secular state eduction for the whole of the UK not just my corner of Hampshire (well done for picking up on the clue!) and think that a secular approach to education would benefit a lot of countries right around the world. That's my personal opinion, I'm well aware that many would disagree. So why are you calling me thick for saying that your opinion might not reflect the opinions ond views of a multitude of other people, especially in a country which celebrates multiculturalism and freedom of worship? What about the views of parents who want their children to attend a religious school like children in this country have for hundreds of years? It seems to be you that is having the problem understanding that and not me. Edited 10 December, 2012 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 What point are you trying to make now? I believe in secular state eduction for the whole of the UK not just my corner of Hampshire (well done for picking up on the clue!) and think that a secular approach to education would benefit a lot of countries right around the world. That's my personal opinion, I'm well aware that many would disagree. What is so wrong about a school that happens to be Catholic for example? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 Quite, and you also demand that gay people should be allowed to have a marriage in a civial ceremony right? I'll ask again. 1 WHy would you stay in a religion if you did not adhere to its teachings and principles? 2 Why would you stay in a religion that did not approve of your way of life? 3 Why would you want the blessing on your marriage of this religion that you do not follow correctly so are clearly not devout? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 So why are you calling me thick for saying that your opinion might not reflect the opinions ond views of a multitude of other people, especially in a country which celebrates multiculturalism and freedom of worship? What about the views of parents who want their children to attend a religious school like children in this country have for hundreds of years? It seems to be you that is having the problem understanding that and not me. This really isn't difficult. I spell it for you again. My personal belief - I'll stress it again - personal belief - is that state funded education should be secular. That's it. Nothing complicated. I'm well aware that others think differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 This really isn't difficult. I spell it for you again. My personal belief - I'll stress it again - personal belief - is that state funded education should be secular. That's it. Nothing complicated. I'm well aware that others think differently. I'm well aware of that. What i object to is you calling me thick because i dared to suggest that your opinion might not be shared by everyone. It seems you're incapable of considering other peoples views without resorting to insults and working yourself up into a little rage, quite sad really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 I'll ask again. 1 WHy would you stay in a religion if you did not adhere to its teachings and principles? 2 Why would you stay in a religion that did not approve of your way of life? 3 Why would you want the blessing on your marriage of this religion that you do not follow correctly so are clearly not devout? What have any of your deflecting questions got to do with my statement? Read it again doofus - I said marriage in a civil ceremony. Look you took offence when I said you were thick but come on..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 So why cant civil partnerships be viewed equally and of the same status? Who views them as a lesser relationship? Because they are different. If the husband cheats in a marriage his wife can divorce on the fact of adultery. If one party cheats in a civil partnership there is no right to seek dissolution on adultery. Additionally, the two things have different names in law. The "divorce" is only called that for straight couples and not all courts are accessible to gay couples. All couples should have the same treatment, to include getting married in a church if they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 (edited) I'm well aware of that. What i object to is you calling me thick because i dared to suggest that your opinion might not be shared by everyone. It seems you're incapable of considering other peoples views without resorting to insults and working yourself up into a little rage, quite sad really. I called you thick because you kept raising points that bore no reflection to what I'd said which was really quite simple. No where have I suggested that my opinion is held by everyone. Edited 10 December, 2012 by anothersaintinsouthsea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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