Gay Marriage

[dubai_phil]

Should it be allowed in a "Holy Place"

 

Discuss.

 

 

(note this annoys me because a single practising Christian who (stupidly) fell in love with me is NOT allowed to marry me in a Church outside the UK. Equally, by marrying me she will be effectively ex-communicated and banned from being a Godmother to her niece).

 

I happen to believe that a new legal definition of Gay Marriage should be created, allowing a Marriage in a Registry Office. HOWEVER until ANYONE can marry in ANY Church then this is PC land and lobby groups gone mad

[hamster]

Count me in.

 

 

Dont think it's 'nice' to exclude anyone from anything in a perfect world but its not a perfect world and I'm not the sort to stick my nose in other people's business.

[ecuk268]

Should be up to the individual establishment.

[hypochondriac]

If some religious places want to marry same sex couples then fair enough. Shouldn't be forced to marry them if they don't want to though.

[CB Saint]

The politicians should keep their beaks out, the individual religions should have the final say. That said if a law needs changing so that the religions can choose, then the mps should pass it.

 

Cannot see the C of E going for it, they couldn't pass the woman bishop motion which is a damn sight less controversial.

[egg]

We will never have proper gay marriage, whether in church or registry office. The church have always objected to "exclusive" same sex relationships hence we have civil partnership where there is no exclusivity and no ability to 'divorce' on the basis of adultery.

 

I think that civil partnerships in their current form will be administered in church.

 

Personally I think the pandering to the church is a nonsense. The marriage act should have been amended to allow for proper marriage between two adults regardless of gender and to be able to marry wherever.

[bridge too far]

Marriage should be a secular convention, blessed by a church if people want it so. Get married in any church apart from the Church of England and you have to have a secular officer (the Registrar) present anyway.

 

Churches, of all denominations, have too much influence - certainly too much relative to the number of genuine worshippers. All religion should be excluded from education too.

[badgerx16]

Cameron is playing games; he cannot find time to try to pass legislaton for a 'marriage tax break', which was in the Tory manifesto, but can find time for this idea, which was not. It is also reasonably clear that if this is brought before the Commons it will pass because Labour and the LibDems will whip the vote - so he'll get it through despite Tory opposition. I also find it interesting that Peter Tatchell says that this idea is discriminatory against heterosexual couples, as they are legally barred from participating in a Civil Partnership.

Edited 10 December, 2012 by badgerx16

[aintforever]

the government shouldn't tell religions what to do but the Church should get over their homophobia.

[Viking Warrior]

If individual churches want to allow it that is excellent but .Equality laws should not be used to change the fabric of of Christian beliefs. I don't hear politicians and minority PC groups doing anything about Islam and mosques in the uk. I believe there is a bigger issue and problem of discrimination against gay folk and women there than the Church of England and Church of Scotland . Mind in the Church of Scotland women are treated slightly differently than the male dominated close shop that exists

[PhilippineSaint]

Ban Religion

[Turkish]

Marriage should be a secular convention, blessed by a church if people want it so. Get married in any church apart from the Church of England and you have to have a secular officer (the Registrar) present anyway.

 

Churches, of all denominations, have too much influence - certainly too much relative to the number of genuine worshippers. All religion should be excluded from education too.

 

Why?

[dickyhale]

live and let live

[PhilippineSaint]

Because it interferes with the imparting of facts over conjecture.

 

No matter what religion it is.

[Turkish]

live and let live

 

That is what we beleive in on here. However only in certain circumstances, for examples the calls on this thread for religion to be banned and no taught in schools. You can live and let live provided you aren't attached to a religion is seems.

[Thedelldays]

Marriage should be a secular convention, blessed by a church if people want it so. Get married in any church apart from the Church of England and you have to have a secular officer (the Registrar) present anyway.Churches, of all denominations, have too much influence - certainly too much relative to the number of genuine worshippers. All religion should be excluded from education too.

i am appalled by your non live and let live attitude..

[bridge too far]

i am appalled by your non live and let live attitude..

 

Really? Because it's usually you with that attitude.

 

My own view is that only facts should be taught in schools. I don't think there should be religion-based schools either. My daughter and SiL are regular church goers and their daughter goes to a Church of England school. They know my views but, ultimately, it's up to them and it's not my place to interfere.

 

If people choose to adhere to a certain religion or faith then that's fine by me. But they should do so in their places of worship, not in school, (like the French I think).

[Turkish]

Really? Because it's usually you with that attitude.

 

My own view is that only facts should be taught in schools. I don't think there should be religion-based schools either. My daughter and SiL are regular church goers and their daughter goes to a Church of England school. They know my views but, ultimately, it's up to them and it's not my place to interfere.

 

If people choose to adhere to a certain religion or faith then that's fine by me. But they should do so in their places of worship, not in school, (like the French I think).

 

Religion isn't based on FACTS though, it's based on belief and principles. Dont you think in a multicultural society we live in it would be excellent for your young people to have an understanding of the beliefs and principles that guide some of their peers, such and Islam and Judaism?

Edited 10 December, 2012 by Turkish

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

I don't think Religious schools should be publically funded, if private schools want to be religious that's up to them. Marriage should be a secular affair as well. If people want a religious blessing after they've completed the state service then bully for them. Religious institutions shouldn't be forced to offer blessings to gays.

[Saint Mikey]

Thought this was fundamentally against the bible?

[egg]

Religion isn't based on FACTS though, it's based on belief and principles. Dont you think in a multicultural society we live in it would be excellent for your young people to have an understanding of the beliefs and principles that guide some of their peers, such and Islam and Judaism?

 

I think her point was that religion is not based on facts.

 

A debate about religion in schools is surely a separate debate to gay marriage or civil partnership in church.

 

I think a fundamental point that many overlook is that we don't actually have gay marriage, we have something with a different name and a slightly different legal basis. I think the relevant discussion is whether it is right that gay couples are treated differently to straight couples in terms of marriage.

[Turkish]

I think her point was that religion is not based on facts.

 

A debate about religion in schools is surely a separate debate to gay marriage or civil partnership in church.

 

I think a fundamental point that many overlook is that we don't actually have gay marriage, we have something with a different name and a slightly different legal basis. I think the relevant discussion is whether it is right that gay couples are treated differently to straight couples in terms of marriage.

 

But dont you agree, it's a fantastic thing that our young people are taught by qualifed people of the belief systems they are surrounded by in this wonderful multicultural society we have become? It certainly helps them understand the way of life of different races and enables them to gain an insight into why other people live a different way of life to the one they have been brought up with. WHere else are they to learn about Islam, Judaism, Buddism, etc? Or would people prefer this is never discussed and our children grow up ignorant of different beliefs that they may encounter and therefore potentially leading to divsions and prejudice?

[Thedelldays]

Really? Because it's usually you with that attitude.My own view is that only facts should be taught in schools. I don't think there should be religion-based schools either. My daughter and SiL are regular church goers and their daughter goes to a Church of England school. They know my views but, ultimately, it's up to them and it's not my place to interfere.If people choose to adhere to a certain religion or faith then that's fine by me. But they should do so in their places of worship, not in school, (like the French I think).

I have no doubt that you are a massive champion of our multi cultural society.......when all these people come over here, many of which are deeply religious...how can we as a society mingle properly without fear........if we are not taught why our neighbour gets called in for preyer god knows how many times a day etc............wouldnt we become 'ignorant'???

[bridge too far]

But dont you agree, it's a fantastic thing that our young people are taught by qualifed people of the belief systems they are surrounded by in this wonderful multicultural society we have become? It certainly helps them understand the way of life of different races and enables them to gain an insight into why other people live a different way of life to the one they have been brought up with. WHere else are they to learn about Islam, Judaism, Buddism, etc? Or would people prefer this is never discussed and our children grow up ignorant of different beliefs that they may encounter and therefore potentially leading to divsions and prejudice?

 

No problem with that - those topics can be covered and discussed as part of a 'morals and ethics' subject in school, and could include aetheism as well for example. I'm suggesting there should be no faith based schools, rather secular schools that cover morals, ethics and faiths as part of their syllabus.

 

I would argue that faith based schools widen the rift you refer to rather than encouraging understanding of other faiths.

[Turkish]

No problem with that - those topics can be covered and discussed as part of a 'morals and ethics' subject in school, and could include aetheism as well for example. I'm suggesting there should be no faith based schools, rather secular schools that cover morals, ethics and faiths as part of their syllabus.

 

I would argue that faith based schools widen the rift you refer to rather than encouraging understanding of other faiths.

 

But you said on post 7 that "all religion should be exluced from schools"

 

So are you saying that children should not be taught about the beliefs and systems of other cultures different to their own, just because religion isn't important to you it doesn't mean it isn't to a large section of the world. Dont people often trot out the mantra "all wars are down to religion"? If children dont learn about religion how can they learn about the world they live in? How can they learn to appreciate what muslims beleive for example or about Jews, how can they truely understand the holocust if they are never learn what a Jew is or what they believe in?

[bridge too far]

But you said on post 7 that "all religion should be exluced from schools"

 

So are you saying that children should not be taught about the beliefs and systems of other cultures different to their own, just because religion isn't important to you it doesn't mean it isn't to a large section of the world. Dont people often trot out the mantra "all wars are down to religion"? If children dont learn about religion how can they learn about the world they live in?

 

Yes, I didn't phrase post 7 very well, did I. I really did mean that no single faith should be promulgated in schools and that no school should be based / funded on one faith only. I have absolutely no problem will all religions being debated and discussed in a 'morals and ethics' class (as I said above), no problem at all. I'm all for people learning about all faiths in order to better understand what underpins many aspects of society.

 

But too many faith based schools teach their own 'brand' to the exclusion of all others. Take away the religious bias and there's a much better chance of people forming their opinions on all faiths based on an informed consideration of all the 'facts', myths and parables.

[eurosaint]

But dont you agree, it's a fantastic thing that our young people are taught by qualifed people of the belief systems they are surrounded by in this wonderful multicultural society we have become? It certainly helps them understand the way of life of different races and enables them to gain an insight into why other people live a different way of life to the one they have been brought up with. WHere else are they to learn about Islam, Judaism, Buddism, etc? Or would people prefer this is never discussed and our children grow up ignorant of different beliefs that they may encounter and therefore potentially leading to divsions and prejudice?

 

The problem here is that 'belief' is all in the mind and it is often only a short step from brainwashing/indoctrination ! The interpretation of bibles and scriptures can vary wildly and the 'qualified' people you refer to are able to emphasise their own bias should they choose !

Personally I don't want any of my family to be subjected to this !

Schools are for education and rightly is compulsory !

Religion is for churches and should be through choice !

[Minty]

I think btf simply means a school should not be based on ONE religion, and agrees with you that education should include awareness of ALL religions for the reasons you state.

[bridge too far]

I think btf simply means a school should not be based on ONE religion, and agrees with you that education should include awareness of ALL religions for the reasons you state.

 

Thanks Minty -you've said it much better than me!

[egg]

But dont you agree, it's a fantastic thing that our young people are taught by qualifed people of the belief systems they are surrounded by in this wonderful multicultural society we have become? It certainly helps them understand the way of life of different races and enables them to gain an insight into why other people live a different way of life to the one they have been brought up with. WHere else are they to learn about Islam, Judaism, Buddism, etc? Or would people prefer this is never discussed and our children grow up ignorant of different beliefs that they may encounter and therefore potentially leading to divsions and prejudice?

 

I take your point.

 

My daughter goes to a CoE school where she is educated about all religions to include Judaism and Islam and yes it's positive that a "church school" is positive about all religions.

[Turkish]

The problem here is that 'belief' is all in the mind and it is often only a short step from brainwashing/indoctrination ! The interpretation of bibles and scriptures can vary wildly and the 'qualified' people you refer to are able to emphasise their own bias should they choose !

Personally I don't want any of my family to be subjected to this !

Schools are for education and rightly is compulsory !

Religion is for churches and should be through choice !

 

RE teachers aren't biased priests. They are qualifed teachers and they have a responsbility to educate. I'm not particularly religious but i enjoed RE lessons at school and i found the projects we did on Islam and Judaism fansinating. As i said above, we live in multicultural society, if children are to understand and embrace it then the place to learn what their peers believe in is at school. How can you fully understand the holocaust if you have no idea what a Jew is or what they beleive in for example?

[Patrick Bateman]

I think religion is a load of old balls to be honest and it really doesn't have a place in modern society - linking the the first post, I think this is the problem; "religion" is out-dated and actually pretty pointless.

[Clapham Saint]

On gay marriage I think that if gay people want to get married in a church and the church is happy for them to be then what possible reason is there for the law to prevent them.

 

We shuoldn't be forcing churches/priests/vicars to perform the ceremony. If any religion choses not to allow reglious gay marriage ceremonies then ultimately that is their call. In doing so they will only continue to make themselves less and less relevant to the majority of the population.

 

As for church schools... Our neareest school is a very good "Church of England Aided" school. Currently priority for new places is given to children who's parents

 

a) Attend the local church at least every other week (and a certificate signed by the vicar is required to prove it)

 

AND

 

b) have been confirmed (and have a certificate to proove it).

 

 

If this were a private school then fair enough, however for my daughter not be be able to attend our nearest STATE FUNDED school becuase her parents aren't religious isn't on IMO.

 

 

Of course "children with parents from other faiths are welcome"... they just have to make do with the palaces that the Christians (with certificates) don't need.

[norwaysaint]

Really? Because it's usually you with that attitude.

 

My own view is that only facts should be taught in schools. I don't think there should be religion-based schools either. My daughter and SiL are regular church goers and their daughter goes to a Church of England school. They know my views but, ultimately, it's up to them and it's not my place to interfere.

 

If people choose to adhere to a certain religion or faith then that's fine by me. But they should do so in their places of worship, not in school, (like the French I think).

 

 

This shows a bit of ignorance over what is taught in schools.

 

In British schools, children are educated about the major religions of the world, which gives an insight into culture and improves understanding and tolerance. RE does not teach people that biblical events are facts. RE teaches that certain people across the world have these or those beliefs and traditions.

 

It is a fact that people who are Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, Sikhs or Christians have those beliefs, study from those books, follow those customs and have those festivals. do you think these facts should not be taught to children? I think promoting ignorance is a very poor solution. Education is always the way forward, the more people understand others, the less they will react in a misguided way.

 

I spent twelve years teaching RE at primary level incidentally and at one point was mainly responsible for writing the school plans for the subject, meaning I read the curriculum very carefully and, as an atheist, I considered it a very important part of education.

 

With your suggestion, the only people with any understanding of a religion would be those whose parents followed it, they would be ignorant of all other religions and more open to prejudice because of it.

[Turkish]

I think religion is a load of old balls to be honest and it really doesn't have a place in modern society - linking the the first post, I think this is the problem; "religion" is out-dated and actually pretty pointless.

 

It does though. It may not have a place in YOUR modern society and for most people of our age and peer group but for many people it does. Even things like wearing a burqa or a skull cap, if young children arent educated and made aware of these things it's going to lead them to be ignorant and potentially prejudice. We certainly wouldn't want that to happen and it's very much in the interests of multicuturalism and racial equality that children are educated about this to fully embrace the society we want to create.

[Turkish]

This shows a bit of ignorance over what is taught in schools.

 

In British schools, children are educated about the major religions of the world, which gives an insight into culture and improves understanding and tolerance. RE does not teach people that biblical events are facts. RE teaches that certain people across the world have these or those beliefs and traditions.

 

It is a fact that people who are Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, Sikhs or Christians have those beliefs, study from those books, follow those customs and have those festivals. do you think these facts should not be taught to children? I think promoting ignorance is a very poor solution. Education is always the way forward, the more people understand others, the less they will react in a misguided way.

 

I spent twelve years teaching RE at primary level incidentally and at one point was mainly responsible for writing the school plans for the subject, meaning I read the curriculum very carefully and, as an atheist, I considered it a very important part of education.

 

With your suggestion, the only people with any understanding of a religion would be those whose parents followed it, they would be ignorant of all other religions and more open to prejudice because of it.

 

Quite, even in my school back in the early 90's we need half a term long projects learning about Islam, Judaism and Buddism as well as christiany, Thomas Aqunius and so on. I found it fasinating. It's certainly in everyones interests that this be included in the curriculm.

[dubai_phil]

Ahem.

 

This is about Churches and Gay Marriage, start your own Education Thread

 

I thought Churches were all about The Bible or God. I must have missed the Sunday School lesson where they taught us about Adam and Steve.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Quite, even in my school back in the early 90's we need half a term long projects learning about Islam, Judaism and Buddism as well as christiany, Thomas Aqunius and so on. I found it fasinating. It's certainly in everyones interests that this be included in the curriculm.

 

Other than a badly worded post early on in this thread, no one has argued that RE shouldn't be taught at schools. Several people appear to object to State funded faith schools. What's your view?

[Turkish]

Other than a badly worded post early on in this thread, no one has argued that RE shouldn't be taught at schools. Several people appear to object to State funded faith schools. What's your view?

 

If people want to send their children to faith schools and the state is happy to fund them then who are we to question their right to do so in this multicultural society we live in?

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

If people want to send their children to faith schools and the state is happy to fund them then who are we to question their right to do so in this multicultural society we live in?

 

Well "the State" is obviously happy but it is funded by tax payers and Government policy is somewhat reflective of voters' wishes. Some tax payers and voters don't want State money spent on faith schoools. What's your view as a (presumably) voter and (presumably) a tax payer?

 

You're obviously flagging up "multicultural society" for some reason, probably think you're being really clever, but this country has had state funded education since well before we approximated anything close to a multicultural society so it's totally irrelevant. Even so 99.9% of state religious schools are either CofE or Catholic so not in anyway multi-faith or multicultural anyway.

[Turkish]

Well "the State" is obviously happy but it is funded by tax payers and Government policy is somewhat reflective of voters' wishes. Some tax payers and voters don't want State money spent on faith schoools. What's your view as a (presumably) voter and (presumably) a tax payer?

 

You're obviously flagging up "multicultural society" for some reason, probably think you're being really clever, but this country has had state funded education since well before we approximated anything close to a multicultural society so it's totally irrelevant. Even so 99.9% of state religious schools are either CofE or Catholic so not in anyway multi-faith or multicultural anyway.

 

I pay my taxes in good faith and i trust the government to spend them in the way they see fit. It's my obligation as a hard working member of a cultural melting pot to pay tax, if some of that money goes to faith schools which parents want to send their children too, then that is fine by me. The government wastes far more money on other things than giving parents the right to send their children to a school of their own faith. I applaud the government for making this possible.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

I pay my taxes in good faith and i trust the government to spend them in the way they see fit. It's my obligation as a hard working member of a cultural melting pot to pay tax, if some of that money goes to faith schools which parents want to send their children too, then that is fine by me. The government wastes far more money on other things than giving parents the right to send their children to a school of their own faith. I applaud the government for making this possible.

 

Great satire on your normal posting style of reactionary goon. Good stuff.

[Turkish]

Great satire on your normal posting style of reactionary goon. Good stuff.

 

I'm sorry. i dont understand what you mean. Religion may not be important to you or i in our daily lives, but it is to many peoeple and still has a effect on our lives overall and of those around us, do you not agree?

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

I'm sorry. i dont understand what you mean. Religion may not be important to you or i in our daily lives, but it is to many peoeple and still has a effect on our lives overall and of those around us, do you not agree?

 

And now you're playing dumb. A little bit tiring but I'll carry on.

 

My earlier posts are pretty clear but for the sake of clarity: If people want to be religious then great for them but they can pursue their worship and the indoctrination of their kids at their own expense. State schools should educate kids about different religions but that's as far as it goes.

[Turkish]

And now you're playing dumb. A little bit tiring but I'll carry on.

 

My earlier posts are pretty clear but for the sake of clarity: If people want to be religious then great for them but they can pursue their worship and the indoctrination of their kids at their own expense. State schools should educate kids about different religions but that's as far as it goes.

 

Dont you think it's great that parents and children have the opportunity to send their children to a school of their faith though? As i've said before, just because religion isn't important to you, that isn't the case for everyone. Personally i think its fantastic that we have a government and as a society we are so keen to embrace peoples right to choice and freedom of worship.

[sussexsaint]

considering what the church has let happen in its 'holy places' for decades I'm not sure it has any moral high ground from which to preach

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Dont you think it's great that parents and children have the opportunity to send their children to a school of their faith though? As i've said before, just because religion isn't important to you, that isn't the case for everyone. Personally i think its fantastic that we have a government and as a society we are so keen to embrace peoples right to choice and freedom of worship.

 

My position is clear, I refer you to earlier posts.

[Saintandy666]

There is absolutely no reason why the church should have any say in what marriage is defined as. The Church does not own marriage, and hasn't for quite a while now. I would suggest to the Church that if they want to still be around in any meaningful form in 50-100 years that they need to move with the times and reflect modern attitudes.

[Turkish]

There is absolutely no reason why the church should have any say in what marriage is defined as. The Church does not own marriage, and hasn't for quite a while now. I would suggest to the Church that if they want to still be around in any meaningful form in 50-100 years that they need to move with the times and reflect modern attitudes.

 

Apart from the first marriage on record which was between Adam and Eve and was when Eve was created by god, yes?

[Turkish]

My position is clear, I refer you to earlier posts.

 

Im not sure what your take on mulitcultualism is and i cant be arsed to wade through your posts to find it, but if you are pro it then you really should celebrate the fact that parents can choose if they wish their child to be educated in a school which reflects their faith.