david in sweden Posted 8 December, 2012 Share Posted 8 December, 2012 ...in the last six games? Putting aside the fiasco start we had ...clearly Jos doesn't have his good form from last season, and thankfully...Jose Fonte has improved out of sight in the last month. BUT on paper it's the return of Jack Cork.....and the emergence of Luke Shaw. With 8 goals for and only 4 against .....it can't be compared with things as they were at the end of September. Somehow we seem to be a different side with Jack commanding the middle, and at last Luke Shaw has shown that he has real potential - even at this level. Looking at the the start line-up and the bench today; I think we have the basis of our first team squad (perhaps plus Gazzaniga, too) ......the rest.... will have something to prove or will be on the move ...or loaned out in January. We certainly need cover. Danny Fox will have a hard time to get a game and we still don't have a 3rd choice CB and we need extra cover there in the event of long term absences and loss of form, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalek2003 Posted 8 December, 2012 Share Posted 8 December, 2012 I think the fixtures have been a tad easier than our first six, don't you think ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidthesquid Posted 8 December, 2012 Share Posted 8 December, 2012 We now know what is needed to compete in the Prem. both the players and manager have been on an incredibly steep (and harsh) learning curve, but now look like they can cut it physically and mentally. (Ok, the fixtures helped, but it was a tough introduction.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 8 December, 2012 Share Posted 8 December, 2012 1. Moving to 4-4-2 and having left and right midfielders (helping the fullbacks) rather than left and right wingers (leaving us exposed) 2. Jack Cork playing out of his skin 3. Ramirez and Shaw back after injuries Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggy Posted 8 December, 2012 Share Posted 8 December, 2012 Jack Cork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Diamond Posted 8 December, 2012 Share Posted 8 December, 2012 I always enjoy the boldness of your posts David and they leave me on a cliffhanger... So very often. I agree, Cork's return has made a lot of difference. I think the partnership between Yoshida and Fonte gets better with each game too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asaint4ever Posted 8 December, 2012 Share Posted 8 December, 2012 I did laugh when my mate said that jack cork is crap! The bloke might not have pace or skill but wow he reads the game well and put a shift in! One of my favourite players! And he was my favourite signing till Ramirez came. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian lord Posted 8 December, 2012 Share Posted 8 December, 2012 Cork Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsland Red Posted 8 December, 2012 Share Posted 8 December, 2012 Cork This Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whizzpop Posted 8 December, 2012 Share Posted 8 December, 2012 Yoshida now looks settled and composed. ramirez returning too has obviously helped the dynamics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Martini Posted 8 December, 2012 Share Posted 8 December, 2012 1. Moving to 4-4-2 and having left and right midfielders (helping the fullbacks) rather than left and right wingers (leaving us exposed) 2. Jack Cork playing out of his skin 3. Ramirez and Shaw back after injuries With Ramirez starting we haven't played 4-4-2 once. We did today because Ramirez was not fit enough after his trip to Uruguay but we still play 4-2-3-1. David got it spot on in the opening post (not that it was that hard), but Shaw and Cork have been very important. Cork protects the defense from midfielders running at them with pace and Shaw can actually stop pacey wingers from crossing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 8 December, 2012 Share Posted 8 December, 2012 The difference? Playing with two holding midfielders shielding our back 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOSaint Posted 8 December, 2012 Share Posted 8 December, 2012 The improvment shown by Fonte/Yoshida should not be ignored either, though I think Fonte has been the better of the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Clarke Posted 8 December, 2012 Share Posted 8 December, 2012 The run of fixtures we've had have contributed to our upturn, that cannot be denied - but we've taken advantage of other teams limitations and have got the results in the games we've needed to get them in. Can't ask for much more than that. Although tactically I think we've tweaked things, possibly since WBA away to be honest where even though we lost, I felt we had a bit more of a solidity about us. Would be interested to see us play a ''Top'' side now, as I think we'll make it a bit more difficult as we're not as open as we used to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doggface Posted 8 December, 2012 Share Posted 8 December, 2012 The shape of the team is much more solid. The defence and coaching staff must take huge credit, as well as the rest of the team. Biggest result of the season so far IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Garrett Posted 8 December, 2012 Share Posted 8 December, 2012 Not dicking about with the ball as much as well. If we need to get rid, the ball goes up to Rickie. But agree that Shaw, Cork and Gaston have had a good impact. Add to that the fixture list and I think thats fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 8 December, 2012 Share Posted 8 December, 2012 All....of the above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ottery st mary Posted 8 December, 2012 Share Posted 8 December, 2012 Team now... THE team AND uNCLE nigel:D Cork , Ramirez , Shaw , and all the others. BIG mention for Puncheon.......Like a new signing. Yoshida and Fonte building a solid partnership. The cut of the grass.... So maybe THE GROUNDSMAN gerts my vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saints Fan Dan Posted 9 December, 2012 Share Posted 9 December, 2012 Cortese not picking the team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 9 December, 2012 Share Posted 9 December, 2012 It's no coincidence that since Adkins and NC had 'the chat' things have been better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 9 December, 2012 Share Posted 9 December, 2012 It's no coincidence that since Adkins and NC had 'the chat' things have been better. When we next lose 3 or 4 on the bounce (which we will) does this mean that there has been a reverse chat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 9 December, 2012 Share Posted 9 December, 2012 With Ramirez starting we haven't played 4-4-2 once...but we still play 4-2-3-1. no we don't. For some time now we have played 4-4-2 with Ramirez as the second striker. He does drop deep, but so does Lambert - is he not playing up front too? Check Ramirez' starting position when the ball is in the opponents keepers hands. It's him and Lambert closing down across the line. He is playing up front. Add to this Lallana and Puncheon have since WBA played as proper right and left midfielders rather than wingers. It's a subtle difference, but they are deeper and have much more defensive duties. They are not playing as three behind the striker, although they do cut inside and float when we have the ball. When we don't they are right there in front of their fullback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jam Posted 9 December, 2012 Share Posted 9 December, 2012 When we next lose 3 or 4 on the bounce (which we will) does this mean that there has been a reverse chat? Nope. I'm sure, however, that if there is a reverse chat then it will be as widely reported as the last one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 9 December, 2012 Share Posted 9 December, 2012 We don't play 4-4 fecking 2 Jeez. FFS tell someone to buy you The Secret Footballer for Xmas, if nothing else it will kill most of the Dinosaur opinions held by some on here. Re the OP. Everyone believes it is Jack Cork who has made the difference. BUT go back to Pre Season, who was our 1st choice LB? Shaw. A lot of weight to put on a kid but he has been the main difference, Fox would be player of the year at Reading (or any other Championship team) but in the play from the back world of the PL he is a dinosaur. The OTHER main difference now is that both wide midfielders are giving support to our FB's. Look back at the last 6 games and you no longer see 2 on 1 situations 5 or 6 times a game. IF you hold the Turkish view then Nige has taken control and changed that. IF you take the learning curve view then he clearly read this forum and sorted out his tactics after Ottery & others pointed it out a zillion times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pingwing Posted 9 December, 2012 Share Posted 9 December, 2012 Consistency, we have had about 5 games now with minimal changes, everyone knows their role and where each other is. Helped massively with the return of Cork and emergence of Shaw as well as Gaston getting back in. One of the best bits about the squad is we are now settled to where everyone should and needs to be, no more mucking about with people out of position to try and make a formation work or constantly switching people in and out of position confusing our selves instead of the opposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 9 December, 2012 Author Share Posted 9 December, 2012 When we next lose 3 or 4 on the bounce (which we will) does this mean that there has been a reverse chat? I don't think we'll be qualifying for Europe this season.... but if the 3 or 4 (defeats) on the bounce that you stated include ......Man.City, Man. Utd and Arsenal ......will anyone be surprised? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted 9 December, 2012 Share Posted 9 December, 2012 Cork, Shaw, Ramirez adding quality, Fonte and Yohida forming a decent partnership, and playing a 4 man midfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krissyboy31 Posted 9 December, 2012 Share Posted 9 December, 2012 Cork has made a massive difference to the balance of the team. Obviously the emergence of Shaw and Yoshida now being up to speed with English football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 We don't play 4-4 fecking 2 Jeez. jeez we 4-4 fecking two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alanh Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 jeez we 4-4 fecking two. Chez, I think you read the game pretty well, but I've got to disagree with you on this one. I don't think you can call our formation 4-4-2 in the traditional sense. The fluidity of movement and interchange of the front four with a deeper lying attacker (yesterday RL, but usually Gaston) together with the holding play of Morgan and Cork points more towards a 4-2-3-1. It's certainly now what you would call a flat four in midfield. When we are defending deep our 'wingers' do the more traditional job of covering with the fullbacks, but that's about the only time you could say we play four in midfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Wayman Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 ...in the last six games? Putting aside the fiasco start we had ...clearly Jos doesn't have his good form from last season, and thankfully...Jose Fonte has improved out of sight in the last month. BUT on paper it's the return of Jack Cork.....and the emergence of Luke Shaw. With 8 goals for and only 4 against .....it can't be compared with things as they were at the end of September. Somehow we seem to be a different side with Jack commanding the middle, and at last Luke Shaw has shown that he has real potential - even at this level. Looking at the the start line-up and the bench today; I think we have the basis of our first team squad (perhaps plus Gazzaniga, too) ......the rest.... will have something to prove or will be on the move ...or loaned out in January. We certainly need cover. Danny Fox will have a hard time to get a game and we still don't have a 3rd choice CB and we need extra cover there in the event of long term absences and loss of form, etc. Probably a bit too simplistic. There has been a general all round improvement in our defensive effort probably some new people or thinking behind the scenes rather than player changes or managers working miracles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasonb Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 It's no coincidence that since Adkins and NC had 'the chat' things have been better. Genuine question: can you post the article where this "chat" is confirmed. I missed it and I keep reading about it on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WALK DMC Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 While I agree with many of the comments on here about the reasons for the improvements; Cork, Shaw, more settled side and playing easier teams I still would like more evidence that our away format has really improved. Last season our away form was okay even though we won three less matches than WHU and Reading and conceded more goals. However there were some bad signs such as Bristol City, Blackpool and others where both the performance and result was sub-standard. Our defence away from home often gave away silly goals. It was our outstanding home form that made the big difference in getting us promoted. This year our away form with the exception of a win against a really poor QPR side has consisted of only losses and in the most recent game against Liverpool only the home sides inadequate finishing let us off a hammering. I hope that when we get a period of consecutive away games that the old problems don't suddenly reappear. Hopefully the confidence gained from improved home results against bottom half teams leads to increased confidence and a better defence when playing away. I would really settle for a few solid draws and occasional victory in our away games before celebrating our turn around in form. Fulham and Stoke are good tests and will in some ways will be a better indication of whether we have truly turned the corner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(not THE) Kevin Moore Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 jeez we 4-4 fecking two. You have said this a lot and I dont really agree with you, with puncheon and Lallana as inside out players they naturally play narrow and any of those two and Ramirez get up and support srl. Morgan and Cork do get up the pitch and break between the lines they tend to sit more to allow the front 4 more freedom as well as allowing the fullbacks to occupy the space left by Lallana and puncheon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 10 December, 2012 Share Posted 10 December, 2012 While I agree with many of the comments on here about the reasons for the improvements; Cork, Shaw, more settled side and playing easier teams I still would like more evidence that our away format has really improved. Last season our away form was okay even though we won three less matches than WHU and Reading and conceded more goals. However there were some bad signs such as Bristol City, Blackpool and others where both the performance and result was sub-standard. Our defence away from home often gave away silly goals. It was our outstanding home form that made the big difference in getting us promoted. This year our away form with the exception of a win against a really poor QPR side has consisted of only losses and in the most recent game against Liverpool only the home sides inadequate finishing let us off a hammering. I hope that when we get a period of consecutive away games that the old problems don't suddenly reappear. Hopefully the confidence gained from improved home results against bottom half teams leads to increased confidence and a better defence when playing away. I would really settle for a few solid draws and occasional victory in our away games before celebrating our turn around in form. Fulham and Stoke are good tests and will in some ways will be a better indication of whether we have truly turned the corner. Given our aims for the season, we don't need to be doing much different to what we are doing now. We'll probably lose most games away this season, if we were winning home and away we'd be near the top. The barometer for a successful season will be our ability to win our home games against the mid to lower teams s well as picking up some away points here and there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WALK DMC Posted 11 December, 2012 Share Posted 11 December, 2012 Given our aims for the season, we don't need to be doing much different to what we are doing now. We'll probably lose most games away this season, if we were winning home and away we'd be near the top. The barometer for a successful season will be our ability to win our home games against the mid to lower teams s well as picking up some away points here and there I think that we are generally agreeing, but my main point remains that unless we can demonstrate that we can pick up some away points here and there we will find ourselves in big trouble. Our current away form of W1, D0, L6 which is abysmal and if it is the inbalance in the number of our home (played 9) and away (played 7) games that has been a big contribution in our climb up the league. However, we threw away winning positions at home to Swansea and Norwich which means that we cannot rely on home form alone. As per my previous message, I think that Fulham and Stoke away will be the real proof of whether we have really turned the corner, or whether it has been mainly due to good home form against lower half teams. Fingers crossed that we can pick up 3+ points from those away games, but the performance at Liverpool disappointed and hasnt yet convinced me that the turnaround is permanent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70's Mike Posted 11 December, 2012 Share Posted 11 December, 2012 THE quality of the opposition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capitalsaint Posted 11 December, 2012 Share Posted 11 December, 2012 We don't play 4-4 fecking 2 Jeez. FFS tell someone to buy you The Secret Footballer for Xmas, if nothing else it will kill most of the Dinosaur opinions held by some on here. Are you him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suomi Saint Posted 11 December, 2012 Share Posted 11 December, 2012 Shaw followed by Cork Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 11 December, 2012 Share Posted 11 December, 2012 With Ramirez starting we haven't played 4-4-2 once. We did today because Ramirez was not fit enough after his trip to Uruguay but we still play 4-2-3-1. David got it spot on in the opening post (not that it was that hard), but Shaw and Cork have been very important. Cork protects the defense from midfielders running at them with pace and Shaw can actually stop pacey wingers from crossing. There seems to be MASSIVE confusion on this site as to what formations we play. Some think 4-4-2, some think 4-2-3-1, some 4-3-3. From what I can work out, we actually play all 3 but in different stages of the game. Without the ball we seem to play a 4-4-2, with both wide midfielders pushed back to help the full backs. With the ball we seem to play a 4-2-3-1, and when counter attacking a 4-3-3. I think this may have been why the side was so confused earlier in the season with the formations, but we may well be learning now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 11 December, 2012 Share Posted 11 December, 2012 When Ramirez plays its basically a 4-4-1-1 with Ramirez pushing up when we have the ball, back when we don't plus the same with AL and JP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintbob40 Posted 11 December, 2012 Share Posted 11 December, 2012 Cork all the way. Whilst Shaw is very, very impressive he can only have limited impact at left back whilst a great deal of our play goes through Cork. It is the filling of gaps when the full backs go forward, the closing down of space when we dont have the ball, the ball retention (5 yard pass here or there) and continuity play generally that have made a huge difference. Remember how naively open we were at the start of the season when either or both of JWP and SD were partnering Morgan. Cork is our Makele and plays in a position that is not glamorous. No doubt he will slip out of most fans consciousness once again as he did last year as our fans drool over Adam's skills or SRLs goals, but in his own quietly effective way Cork is IMHO the most important player in the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc oli Posted 11 December, 2012 Share Posted 11 December, 2012 Cork somehow being a better player in the PL than he was in the Championship. And a brilliant partnership with Morgan. Plus Shaw providing a sense of calm and reassurance that belies his age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sanchez Posted 11 December, 2012 Share Posted 11 December, 2012 Playing well and playing teams that are a similar ability to us, everybody who saying Cork is playing out of his skin obviously did not go to the Liverpool game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 11 December, 2012 Share Posted 11 December, 2012 The "real difference" is that we've playing against crap teams. This is proven beyond a doubt by us losing at Liverpool. Shaw is more defensive than Fox but until he has to face the top sides we won't really know if he's good enough (as Fox basically wasn't). As for Cork, he played against Liverpool, none of the wonderful things that have happened against crapper teams happened there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 11 December, 2012 Share Posted 11 December, 2012 There seems to be MASSIVE confusion on this site as to what formations we play. Some think 4-4-2, some think 4-2-3-1, some 4-3-3. From what I can work out, we actually play all 3 but in different stages of the game. Without the ball we seem to play a 4-4-2, with both wide midfielders pushed back to help the full backs. With the ball we seem to play a 4-2-3-1, and when counter attacking a 4-3-3. I think this may have been why the side was so confused earlier in the season with the formations, but we may well be learning now... That is categorically just wrong. Without the ball we leave one up, and never more. We do play variations of all 3, but mostly when we have the ball our formation is 2-6-2 with Lambert and one of the midfielders up with him. This is less the case now Shaw plays, and if I could be arsed I'd go and have a look at the "heat maps" to see if Fox was always more advanced than Shaw has been - though most of the time the formation (which is an outdated concept anyway) completely depends on how much defending we're doing overall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 11 December, 2012 Share Posted 11 December, 2012 (edited) You have said this a lot and I dont really agree with you, with puncheon and Lallana as inside out players they naturally play narrow and any of those two and Ramirez get up and support srl. Morgan and Cork do get up the pitch and break between the lines they tend to sit more to allow the front 4 more freedom as well as allowing the fullbacks to occupy the space left by Lallana and puncheon. Fair enough, perhaps I am wrong, it has been known. Going forward there certainly is a lot of interchanging, which is essential, but I'd argue that when the opposition goalkeeper has the ball in his hands that's when you see the formation and it's Ricky AND Ramirez splitting the back four and then two banks of four. Ramirez has been playing up front. He doesn't have a responsibility to track runners unlike the other four midfielders. Whatever formation it really is, I think we agree that the wide players are a little more defensive minded than earlier on in the season when the likes of Lallana were often found on the wrong side of attacks, and that has provided much needed protection to fullbacks and also the centre backs from the subsequent crosses. Edited 11 December, 2012 by Chez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legod Third Coming Posted 11 December, 2012 Share Posted 11 December, 2012 Hmm, let me think.... Manchester, Arsenal, Everton, Spurs v Swansea, Newcastle, QPR, Reading... shall we have a look at the league table... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chez Posted 11 December, 2012 Share Posted 11 December, 2012 Chez, I think you read the game pretty well, but I've got to disagree with you on this one. I don't think you can call our formation 4-4-2 in the traditional sense. The fluidity of movement and interchange of the front four with a deeper lying attacker (yesterday RL, but usually Gaston) together with the holding play of Morgan and Cork points more towards a 4-2-3-1. It's certainly now what you would call a flat four in midfield. When we are defending deep our 'wingers' do the more traditional job of covering with the fullbacks, but that's about the only time you could say we play four in midfield. by and large I think I agree with you, but can you explain the difference between the `traditional sense of a 4-4-2' and what we do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legod Third Coming Posted 11 December, 2012 Share Posted 11 December, 2012 I actually we think we played better against United than we did against Reading! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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