norwaysaint Posted 6 December, 2012 Share Posted 6 December, 2012 OK, that's a bit misleading, but it has been in the state of Washington with Colorado likely to follow. I'm not sure how it's going to work when it's still against federal law. For those that don't get that, the US is governed at state level in some areas and by central (federal) government in others. Most Americans strongly object to too much federal interference in their state. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20621210 It's always a grey area with decriminalisation of drugs. Of course there are serious health risks there that shouldn't be trivialised or ignored, just like there are with drugs that have already been made legal, like alcohol and tobacco. The war on drugs has been a lost cause for a very long time, they barely scratch the surface with what they find and make no lasting difference with whom they arrest. if the very expensive war on drugs is a lost cause, why is so much time and money used in pursuing it? It may go against many principles to give it up and take a different stance, but once it's legal, they can control it a lot more and tax it accordingly, like the other drugs that are now legal. It would go from being a drain on public resources to being a new source of income. This would reduce its effect as a gateway drug to some extent as people buying cannabis would do so without being offered whatever other drug the illegal supplier was carrying. It would also take the trade away from criminal gangs and put it into the hands of legal businesses, just like alcohol. Downsides are the health risks, the public acceptability of another drug, and cannabis isn't harmless, and the idea that this is a step on a ladder that will eventually see most illegal drugs legalised for similar reasons, which many people would feel less comfortable with. There may also be increased cost in healthcare for users, although it's arguable this could also be reduced as a result. What's your opinion, is this the way forward, or will it be looked back on as a silly mistake, soon to be corrected or destroy society as we know it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 6 December, 2012 Share Posted 6 December, 2012 I can see why it's been done, but I have a few friends who have suffered badly from mental problems exacerbated by their cannabis habit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 6 December, 2012 Author Share Posted 6 December, 2012 I've known somebody in the same situation, who ended up in a hospital, where he said nearly every other resident was also a regular cannabis user. The harmful effects are undoubted and included at the top. The thing is that anyone who wants cannabis can get it pretty easily and they are never going to be able to change that. The other point is that you could easily substitute the word cannabis for alcohol in your post, yet we would never spend millions battling the availability of alcohol. If the war is lost, what next? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 6 December, 2012 Share Posted 6 December, 2012 Criminalising stuff like cannabis is a complete waste of money. Better education is required, I think. The only people I've seen suffer long term effects smoked a lot of weed in their teens. Stop that from happening and you stop the vast majority of the mental health issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 6 December, 2012 Share Posted 6 December, 2012 I can see why it's been done, but I have a few friends who have suffered badly from mental problems exacerbated by their cannabis habit. It being illegal didn't stop them then?! Drug use should be treated as health issue not a criminal one. For every one person negatively impacted by Cannabis there are many more who use it with no problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 6 December, 2012 Share Posted 6 December, 2012 It being illegal didn't stop them then?! Drug use should be treated as health issue not a criminal one. For every one person negatively impacted by Cannabis there are many more who use it with no problems. He says whilst rolling a fatty! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 6 December, 2012 Share Posted 6 December, 2012 Personally I'd decriminalise all narcotics and have them licensed and sold in the same way that tobacco is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 6 December, 2012 Share Posted 6 December, 2012 Personally I'd decriminalise all narcotics and have them licensed and sold in the same way that tobacco is. Word. And make a big thing of it. People don't go to Amsterdam for the canals or clogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 6 December, 2012 Share Posted 6 December, 2012 I can see why it's been done, but I have a few friends who have suffered badly from mental problems exacerbated by their cannabis habit. Dig Dig? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 6 December, 2012 Share Posted 6 December, 2012 We all want as low problematic drug use as possible. And it has been shown in countries where cannabis is legalised that problematic drug use is down. There's no point making it illegal. You just create a massive black market, hand billions to criminals and actually make the drugs far more dangerous as criminals cut it with dodgy stuff in order to save money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Mikey Posted 6 December, 2012 Share Posted 6 December, 2012 We all want as low problematic drug use as possible. And it has been shown in countries where cannabis is legalised that problematic drug use is down. There's no point making it illegal. You just create a massive black market, hand billions to criminals and actually make the drugs far more dangerous as criminals cut it with dodgy stuff in order to save money. Has it? Have you been to Amsterdam? Why have they been looking to change their own laws there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 6 December, 2012 Share Posted 6 December, 2012 Has it? Have you been to Amsterdam? Why have they been looking to change their own laws there? You been to Portugal? Drug use, particularly hard drugs, fell after five years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 6 December, 2012 Share Posted 6 December, 2012 You been to Portugal? Drug use, particularly hard drugs, fell after five years. I have been to Lisbon many times I don't think that is any example to follow Massive drug problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 6 December, 2012 Share Posted 6 December, 2012 I have been to Lisbon many times I don't think that is any example to follow Massive drug problem. I've been out on a Friday night in the UK many times. Massive alcohol problems. No example to uphold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Mikey Posted 6 December, 2012 Share Posted 6 December, 2012 I have been to Lisbon many times I don't think that is any example to follow Massive drug problem. I agree with this, I've been to Lisbon too and there is a problem with drugs. People have also offered my old man and old dear (blatantly tourists in their 50s) drugs on the streets in Lisbon. I would call that a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 6 December, 2012 Share Posted 6 December, 2012 I agree with this, I've been to Lisbon too and there is a problem with drugs. People have also offered my old man and old dear (blatantly tourists in their 50s) drugs on the streets in Lisbon. I would call that a problem. Hmm. Drugs freely available in country that has decriminalised drugs? Blimey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 6 December, 2012 Share Posted 6 December, 2012 Has it? Have you been to Amsterdam? Why have they been looking to change their own laws there? I've been to Amsterdam twice and have spoken to uni friends who live there about this law change as well. The law change has been fiercely opposed and now weakened so that individual areas can decide whether tourists can smoke or not. The facts don't lie though. Illegal drugs means billions to criminals, more dangerous drugs and higher drug usage. Prohibition has exacerbated the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 6 December, 2012 Share Posted 6 December, 2012 I've been out on a Friday night in the UK many times. Massive alcohol problems. No example to uphold. Massive alcohol problem and drugs pretty much everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 6 December, 2012 Share Posted 6 December, 2012 Massive alcohol problem and drugs pretty much everywhere. My particular favourite monster is the p!sshead/cokehead/maniac combo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperMikey Posted 6 December, 2012 Share Posted 6 December, 2012 Simply put, drugs are an industry whether they're legal or not. Make them legal and you can control their quality, pricing and consumption to a greater extent than if they were to remain illegal. Some look at cannabis in particular as a missed opportunity for tax and job creation, whereas others see it as a national health risk and something that should be illegal. I came back from a long weekend in Amsterdam on Monday, and it's clear that cannabis is big industry there. Dozens of coffee shops in each area serving dozens of customers each hour. If you think how our high-streets are looking at the moment with every other unit abandoned or close to closing, new business like coffeeshops could revolutionise certain local economies. Obviously you can't ignore the side effects of the drug, the mental health issues and complications to respiratory conditions. These are all things to take into account when this argument comes up. I don't buy the "gateway drug" argument personally. I think it's more down to choice and restraint. I've been using cannabis for the last 3 or 4 years and have not used any other form of narcotic, despite several opportunities to do so. I have several friends in the same boat. I do know people that have suffered from cannabis abuse in a mental health capacity, but I don't know of anybody in my life or that of anyone I know having developed a serious addiction to a very dangerous drug like heroin purely because of their pre-disposition to cannabis use. Like anything, there are other causes and reasons to hard drug abuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 6 December, 2012 Share Posted 6 December, 2012 It's all a mugs' game. If it messes up your head it must be doing damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Posted 6 December, 2012 Share Posted 6 December, 2012 I would like it to be legalised here, and able to be bought over a counter. People should be allowed to get high if they want. It is a meddling government which tries to tell us what drugs we are allowed to have and which we are not, given all the information which is available in this day and age. It would give those who want to get high an alternative to alcohol, and personally I suspect regular cannabis use is more harmful on society and on our health than regular alcohol use. They'd need to sort out some sort of breathaliser for it in the same way they do for booze, if it doesn't already exist. Other than that, I say bring it on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manuel Posted 6 December, 2012 Share Posted 6 December, 2012 Suspect regular cannabis use LESS harmful than alcohol on health and society, I meant to say. (can't edit) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 6 December, 2012 Share Posted 6 December, 2012 Dig Dig? DPS and I are BFF's now. We've drawn a blue line under our differences and look forward to working together to ensure that SWF remains as number 1 in the fierce and competative Saints mongboard market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Marco Posted 6 December, 2012 Share Posted 6 December, 2012 My American partner and her family all think it is a good idea. Logically you have to compare it to alcohol in the prohibition era. All it did was give rise to crime/gangs/corruption and everybody could freely buy drink anyway... It is the same thing today. If you want to buy it you can get it almost everywhere. It isn't hard to find. Better to legalise it and regulate it. My partners point of view is it will help create more jobs as eventually they will sell it in stores like alcohol and tobacco. And on top of that they will create more income when in a time of recession that is really needed. But most of all if you think about how much money has been spent on trying to prevent it there were far better ways to spend that money. Trying to prevent it never worked and will never work with our cultures. There are naturally going to be health things about using it just as there are about everything else. But I suspect if alcohol was banned and cannabis was legal you wouldn't worry about getting punched in the face by some yob on a saturday night. Plus right now the NHS just seems there to deal with drunk people and their situations at the weekend. The only thing people who are stoned would be going to hospital for would be to raid the food cupboards! I don't smoke but I used to growing up. I'm sure for most people it was the same. I don't see the problem really. Just because it is legal does not mean people will rush out and all do it. Thats not how it is in amsterdam. For those growing up it will be just like alcohol now. There if you want it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilippineSaint Posted 6 December, 2012 Share Posted 6 December, 2012 Decriminalise drugs then tax them and take the tax off fuel win win situation Drugs become regulated and better controlled, User's could be educated in there use and referred to doctors therapy if required. Less tax on Fuel would mean cheaper transportation cost for goods Prices would drop and people would have more money left to spend on luxury items increasing turnover and profitability of most companies which would then pay more corporation tax (unless your called Starbucks) which is more revenue for the government. IMO of course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamilton Saint Posted 6 December, 2012 Share Posted 6 December, 2012 To the OP. You make a lot of good points, but I don't agree that cannabis is a "gateway drug". That's like saying coffee (one drug) leads to scotch (another), because most drinkers of scotch drank coffee before they discovered the harder stuff. The war on drugs (a complete failure) has been focused primarily on cannabis, which is a relatively harmless drug. This all goes back to the 1930s (or thereabouts), when marijuana was not properly understood and categorised incorrectly. I see the war on drugs, during the last 40 years, as a highly reactionary response to the 60s counter-culture. Prohibition (against alcohol) didn't work. The war on drugs hasn't worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 6 December, 2012 Share Posted 6 December, 2012 DPS and I are BFF's now. We've drawn a blue line under our differences and look forward to working together to ensure that SWF remains as number 1 in the fierce and competative Saints mongboard market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 6 December, 2012 Author Share Posted 6 December, 2012 To the OP. You make a lot of good points, but I don't agree that cannabis is a "gateway drug". That's like saying coffee (one drug) leads to scotch (another), because most drinkers of scotch drank coffee before they discovered the harder stuff. I don't think you read my comment properly. I said that it was a gateway drug in that by visiting an illegal drug dealer, you are often likely to be offered other drugs he has. I know this is true because in my youth, when I smoked cannabis, I was often offered tabs, speed, ecstasy etc. I don't think smoking cannabis increases your likelihood of taking other drugs in any other way except becoming part of that culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPTCount Posted 7 December, 2012 Share Posted 7 December, 2012 I don't think you read my comment properly. I said that it was a gateway drug in that by visiting an illegal drug dealer, you are often likely to be offered other drugs he has. I know this is true because in my youth, when I smoked cannabis, I was often offered tabs, speed, ecstasy etc. I don't think smoking cannabis increases your likelihood of taking other drugs in any other way except becoming part of that culture. but most weed dealers won't carry a multitude of other substances these days, and i've never been offered tabs from a weed dealer. been offered them by mates but never wanted to take it, i'm not into hallucination. it's all choice anyway, and imo ket is a bigger gateway drug currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 7 December, 2012 Author Share Posted 7 December, 2012 but most weed dealers won't carry a multitude of other substances these days, and i've never been offered tabs from a weed dealer. Yes, but I and many others have been, making it a gateway to other drugs. It's not the only gateway, but being involved with dealers is unarguably a gateway to a variety of drugs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 7 December, 2012 Share Posted 7 December, 2012 The notion of gateway drugs is either nonsense, or a direct result of the one size fits all approach to the way that drugs are discussed in public. As a kid, especially one that grew up in the "just say no" culture of Grange Hill's 1980s crowd, I almost reached adulthood believing that all drugs were just as likely to f**k you up equally badly. As an adult, I know that's a load of crap. I have never been interested in heroin or crack, yet I have done other recreational chemicals in my time; heroic amounts on occasion. Hard stuff has never appealed to me. I also don't buy into the idea that drugs ruin lives, at least not on their own. I know that countless people have died in turf wars, contamination incidents, overdoses etc, so the observant amongst you might be wondering how I can make that claim. Well, turf wars, contamination and (many) overdoses are all a result of the status quo. We don't have turf wars over alcohol, but they did in 1930s when alcohol was banned in the US. We wouldn't have unregulated "bashed" product on the market. We'd have better education and when people have taken a potential overdose, fear of arrest would be diminished to the point where lucid patients or friends can give the medical staff correct information. Finally, let's address the heroin/crack/crystal horror stories. We've all seen the before and after shots - the once beautiful prom queen ravaged by substance abuse. I accept that drugs are a huge factor here, but equally, life has to be pretty f**ked up in the first place for someone to even consider it. I said on the alcohol pricing thread that all substance abuse is a form of escapism. If we want to address it, we need to make real life less sh!t. Seeing as that won't be happening in any meaningful sense, we may as well stop spending billions to say we don't approve ( we do, in droves ) and stop pretending that because someone has a j at the weekend, they'll follow it up the next week by plunging a needle into a vein before going out on the rob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halo Stickman Posted 7 December, 2012 Share Posted 7 December, 2012 The notion of gateway drugs is either nonsense, or a direct result of the one size fits all approach to the way that drugs are discussed in public. As a kid, especially one that grew up in the "just say no" culture of Grange Hill's 1980s crowd, I almost reached adulthood believing that all drugs were just as likely to f**k you up equally badly. As an adult, I know that's a load of crap. I have never been interested in heroin or crack, yet I have done other recreational chemicals in my time; heroic amounts on occasion. Hard stuff has never appealed to me. I also don't buy into the idea that drugs ruin lives, at least not on their own. I know that countless people have died in turf wars, contamination incidents, overdoses etc, so the observant amongst you might be wondering how I can make that claim. Well, turf wars, contamination and (many) overdoses are all a result of the status quo. We don't have turf wars over alcohol, but they did in 1930s when alcohol was banned in the US. We wouldn't have unregulated "bashed" product on the market. We'd have better education and when people have taken a potential overdose, fear of arrest would be diminished to the point where lucid patients or friends can give the medical staff correct information. Finally, let's address the heroin/crack/crystal horror stories. We've all seen the before and after shots - the once beautiful prom queen ravaged by substance abuse. I accept that drugs are a huge factor here, but equally, life has to be pretty f**ked up in the first place for someone to even consider it. I said on the alcohol pricing thread that all substance abuse is a form of escapism. If we want to address it, we need to make real life less sh!t. Seeing as that won't be happening in any meaningful sense, we may as well stop spending billions to say we don't approve ( we do, in droves ) and stop pretending that because someone has a j at the weekend, they'll follow it up the next week by plunging a needle into a vein before going out on the rob. Ways to make real life less sh!t? Now that would be an interesting thread! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamilton Saint Posted 8 December, 2012 Share Posted 8 December, 2012 I don't think you read my comment properly. I said that it was a gateway drug in that by visiting an illegal drug dealer, you are often likely to be offered other drugs he has. I know this is true because in my youth, when I smoked cannabis, I was often offered tabs, speed, ecstasy etc. I don't think smoking cannabis increases your likelihood of taking other drugs in any other way except becoming part of that culture. My understanding of the term "gateway drug" is that it is used to mean that one's acceptance and pleasure with the drug itself will lead to experiences with other drugs. Rather than the scenario you presented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamilton Saint Posted 8 December, 2012 Share Posted 8 December, 2012 Yes, but I and many others have been, making it a gateway to other drugs. It's not the only gateway, but being involved with dealers is unarguably a gateway to a variety of drugs. The error here is mistaking the association of events with a necessary causal connection. Because B often follows A, doesn't mean that A causes B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niceandfriendly Posted 8 December, 2012 Share Posted 8 December, 2012 very interesting and pleasing to see what is happening in Washington... it's hardly surprising that this is starting to happen though. afterall as Professor Lester Grinspoon said whilst talking on this subject "you can't sustain a lie like that forever". The Union - The business behind getting high - is an absolute must watch, whether you're for or against legalisation/decriminalisation. full movie here -> http://youtu.be/6jO_ncXj7RE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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