Reading attendance

[Barry Sanchez]

Yep, over and over again we were told how wrong we were. that we sold out every game easily and there were thousands of fans being turned away every week and thousands more who didn't bother trying as they knew games would be sold out. We were told endlessly how massive our catchment area was an how there were thousands of people in Cirencester, Truro, Trowbride and Lewes who would come to Southampton to see premier league football. We were told we needed a bigger stadium NOW and that there was going to be a made scramble for tickets week in week out. It doesn't seem to be quite working out how we were told it would.

 

Because Cortese is an accountant and not a football man?

[The Kraken]

Anyone know the official figure for season ticket sales?

 

I'm thinking that this might be the main issue. I thought they were a bit overpriced, and that the rise of renewal prices wasn't very fair.

Another thing I was looking at coming back from the Norwich game is the roulette in k.o. times that we have experienced this year, this could possibly put off some ST holders and who knows how many occasional match ticket buyers.

 

If I'm not mistaken, in 8 (?) home games, we've had the traditional Saturday 15h, Sunday 16h, Sunday lunchtime, Wednesday night, Sunday 15h...and we're yet to have late Saturday, Monday night and Saturday brunch time (a killer for all of us nightowls)!

 

In the FL, it was fairly standard: Saturday at 15h or Tuesday at 19h45. Yes, two or three times in 23 games you could get a Sunday lunchtime or a late Saturday, maybe a midweek fixture on another day than Tuesday, but it hardly changed that much. The matchday cost has also risen too and our city has not been watching the crisis pass by...

 

Guess some people can't be fussed to build their free time around SFC's matches. It's not like our attendances have been bad and to be fair the fact that we only broke the attendance record on the promotion game last year says a lot about the size of our regular support.

 

Don't think the ST figure ever got announced. Its rumoured to be around 20K I think.

 

There's plenty of reasons why attendances aren't selling out every week. Undersold corporate areas is a significant and ever-present one. Having every game available live on a stream, and many games televised, also has an effect. Stupid kick off times don't help (although, saying that, our highest attendance this season of 31,944 came against Spurs at 3pm on a Sunday). Lots of people have been turned off by the Premier League, too; its not a close competition that we can win and having that lack of competitiveness is a turn off for some.

 

Its a fact that, given our size, anything close to our capacity of 32,689 is a decent showing. In reality we've only really got close to sellouts on a regular basis for one season at St. Marys, and that after an 8th placed finish and FA Cup final and after shifting a record 23,000 season tickets. And despite all the euphoria surrounding this season, we've yet to break through the 32,000 barrier for a crowd, which should indiciate just how difficult it would be to fill the stadium with thousands of extra paying customers.

[The Kraken]

Kraken i'd just like to know why your so concerned about attendances as i see you on here consistantely concerned with them...i'm curious to know .....(i'm not joking , i'm being serious ) .

 

You say "concerned"; I'm not worried in the slightest about them. I have an interest in them, if that's what you're asking. I've consistently said many times that I can see the potential for, down the line, an increase in capacity of St. Mary's to 40K if we had a successful team and sustained growth in this division. I've also said we shouldn't look to do that right now, but should certainly look to monitor exactly where we are and what our current and future attendance levels are and could be. This is part of that; I'd like to grow as a club, at the moment I can't see a justification for it (yet) but I think there might be.

 

For some reason some people seem to equate that with being negative, having a Dell-sized mentality, and suggesting that we'll never outgrow St. Mary's. Which a thoroughly bizarre yet humourous accusation.

[stevegrant]

In the FL, it was fairly standard: Saturday at 15h or Tuesday at 19h45. Yes, two or three times in 23 games you could get a Sunday lunchtime or a late Saturday, maybe a midweek fixture on another day than Tuesday, but it hardly changed that much.

While I broadly agree that the kickoff time changes are often a turnoff for people, last season saw 11 of our 46 league games televised, plus the Birmingham home game was shifted to the Sunday because of their Europa League involvement. That could be more TV games and kickoff changes than we'll get this season despite being in the Premier League with its various pitfalls.

[Matthew Le God]

vs Reading with 3 more days of ticket sales to come, blocks 1 to 42 have only 1,852 available seats.

 

At no point did I say games against weak teams with Saints in a relegation scrap would sell out long in advance of kickoff. But with 3 days of selling time to go, we will get close to capacity of a 32,000 stadium to watch a relatively poor Saints side in the relegation zone.

 

For a team in a relegation fight that is very good, the demand would only go up if we were doing well this season. Kraken's and Turkish's arguments fall apart on this and they still don't get it. We are nearly maxing out the stadium watching a relegation scrap, if the team was any good the stadium would simply be too small.

[The Kraken]

vs Reading with 3 more days of ticket sales to come, blocks 1 to 42 have only 1,852 available seats.

 

For a team in a relegation fight that is very good, the demand would only go up if we were doing well this season. Kraken's and Turkish's arguments fall apart on this and they still don't get it. We are nearly maxing out the stadium watching a relegation scrap, if the team was any good the stadium would simply be too small.

 

I don't think you seem to understand even what my point is (its not an argument, silly), MLG. Can you perhaps explain it for me. I gave it a go myself in posts #52 and #53, but if you could clarify it for me I'd be obliged.

[Matthew Le God]

I don't think you seem to understand even what my point is (its not an argument, silly), MLG. Can you perhaps explain it for me. I gave it a go myself in posts #52 and #53, but if you could clarify it for me I'd be obliged.

 

Okay, just Turkish. But Kraken, you and Turkish still are continuing to start pointless threads such as these and/or making posts going off on a tangent in other threads in order to bait me into slogging it out with you both again.

 

With only 1,852 seats available in blocks 1 to 42 with 3 days of selling left, does Turkish's opening post to this thread make any sense?

[The Kraken]

Okay, just Turkish. But Kraken, you and Turkish still are continuing to start pointless threads such as these and/or making posts going off on a tangent in other threads in order to bait me into slogging it out with you both again.

 

With only 1,852 seats available in blocks 1 to 42 with 3 days of selling left, does Turkish's opening post to this thread make any sense?

 

Does this thread make any sense? Yes it does. Obviously it may be even more valid to analyse after the game, but its also well worthy of discussion before it. In fact I think Turkish makes a fairly valid point; a Premier League game between two sides looks likely to be less popular than a Championship game between the same two sides was just a few months ago. It suggests at the very least that the glamour of the Premier League alone is not a huge influence on bringing in extra crowds, and gives another bit of evidential information into a supposition we can all make on future attendances.

 

Even the news that Reading aren't close to their full allocation is news as far as I'm concerned. This should also be news to those who suggested that we could fill an increased capacity with extra away fans; Newcastle and now Reading have really surprised me in not taking up the full number they're entitled to and opting for a reduced allocation. You in fact have previously used Reading as an example to us in potentially extending their own ground to 38K; yet here they are and suddenly they can't even fill their away end for a trip to one of their closest rivals (which while being no direct comparison of anything, is again more evidential information to add to the growing pile).

 

I don't know why people get snooty about these threads. I started the ones that highlighted the Man Utd and Tottenham games had actually sold out nearly 2 weeks in advance. again, more information for us and that can hardly be called baiting, can it?

[Wes Tender]

The ranks are swelling - an intimidating total of three (granted the odd straggler here and there).

Your shtick might work if you were actually in the minority on this subject. You're not.

 

And even then, Dorkish is not correct in including me. I never said that we needed a 50,000 seater stadium now. He can't find a post from me saying that and yet he continuously parrots it like a stuck record, presumably hoping that if he says it often enough, people will actually believe it. Regarding the man walking on the moon, that is what is called an analogy. A bit like his analogy that players are like supermarket workers who will move jobs to a rival supermarket for an extra £ an hour. I used it to illustrate that you never say never about such things as our potential future development. I note that Adkins used the analogy of Bannister's sub four minute mile to illustrate some point regarding something else deemed to be impossible or improbable, but Dorkish doesn't appear to ridicule Adkins over it.

 

But it is satisfying to note that other posters are getting very tired at this constant repetitive crowing from Dorkish about how clever he is to adopt his position over attendances and catchment areas, and how stupid others must be to disagree with him.

[Matthew Le God]

Does this thread make any sense? Yes it does. Obviously it may be even more valid to analyse after the game, but its also well worthy of discussion before it. In fact I think Turkish makes a fairly valid point; a Premier League game between two sides looks likely to be less popular than a Championship game between the same two sides was just a few months ago. It suggests at the very least that the glamour of the Premier League alone is not a huge influence on bringing in extra crowds, and gives another bit of evidential information into a supposition we can all make on future attendances.

 

Even the news that Reading aren't close to their full allocation is news as far as I'm concerned. This should also be news to those who suggested that we could fill an increased capacity with extra away fans; Newcastle and now Reading have really surprised me in not taking up the full number they're entitled to and opting for a reduced allocation. You in fact have previously used Reading as an example to us in potentially extending their own ground to 38K; yet here they are and suddenly they can't even fill their away end for a trip to one of their closest rivals (which while being no direct comparison of anything, is again more evidential information to add to the growing pile).

 

I don't know why people get snooty about these threads. I started the ones that highlighted the Man Utd and Tottenham games had actually sold out nearly 2 weeks in advance. again, more information for us and that can hardly be called baiting, can it?

 

What was effectively a Championship title deciding game at Championship prices is obviously going to be more appealing than a Premier League relegation battle at Premier League prices. A stadium expansion wouldn't be based on the assumption we'll be battling it out at the bottom of the league every season. It is only worth doing if it coincides with investment at first team level to make the product appealing to a wider fanbase. As things stand, we aren't a great side, yet are still close to maxing out our ground, Turkish in particular always fails to grasp this.

[St Marco]

What; such as the 30,501 against Swansea that didn't sell out? The 31,410 against Newcastle which didn't (quite) sell out? Or the 29,325 against Norwich which didn't sell out? Which one of those games would you have liked a thread about?

 

Sorry to repeat those figures but my anti-Saints agenda won't feed itself.

 

Pretty sure most of those seats were in the away end so love how you try and spin it as a negative. Does sound a bit anti-Saints as you don't offer any middle ground in your argument. Hate going all statistical but I think its time to show just how stupid your argument is in the hope your stop creating or contributing to these threads anymore....

 

Based on the last 4 home games

Our capacity is 32363.

So these were the attendances for the last 4 home games and what % they were

Norwich = 29,325 = 91% full.

Newcastle = 31,410 = 97% full.

Swansea = 30,501 = 94% full

Spurs = 31,944 = 99% full.

 

So your whole criticism is based on your opinion anything other then 100% full = bad. As what is the dividing line between good and bad?

 

Let's put the past 4 games into one big number which makes it easier to compare to other clubs.

32,363 x 4 = 129,452 seats available over the past 4 home games. 29,325 + 31,410 + 30,501 + 31,944 = 123,180 people buying seats.

123,180 divide by 129,452 x 100 = 95% of the stadium full based over the past 4 games.

 

So then let's have a look to see how that compares to other clubs.

Liverpool = 45,276 capacity

Last 4 home attendances = 44,525. , 44,913, 44,803, 37,521 (Swansea) = 181,104 seats available, 171,762 seats sold = 95% full.

 

Newcastle = 52,404 Capacity

Last 4 home attendances = 43,858 , 49,403 (Swansea) , 51,855, 49,701 = 209616 seats available, 194,817 seats sold = 92% full.

 

Norwich (one of the cheapest tickets for football in the country) = 27,303 capacity

Last 4 home games = 26,288, 26,840, 26,002, 26,825 = 109,212 seats available, 105,955 seats sold = 97%

 

Everton = 40,157 capacity

Last 4 home games = 37,141, 34,502, 35,999, 39,163 (against Liverpool). = 160,628 seats available, 146, 805 seats sold = 91% full.

 

Aston Villa = 42, 788 capacity

Last 4 home games = 28,692, 34,607, 40,538 (against Man U), 33,184 = 171,152 seats available, 137,021 sold = 80% full.

 

West Brom = 26,457 capacity

Last 4 home games = 24,739, 25,933, 25,635, 24,861 = 105,828 seats available, 101,168 sold = 95% full.

 

etc etc

 

In fact you can do the entire league and see even teams like Man Utd, Chelsea, Man City, Arsenal are not 100% sold out.

 

So to put into perspective what your saying. Your saying a % of attendance over our recent games which is higher then Liverpool, Everton, Villa, Newcastle, Wigan, Sunderland, West Brom, QPR etc is bad?

 

Think it is safe to say your just trolling because anyone who thinks that is an idiot.

[Matthew Le God]

wp St Marco

[The Kraken]

What was effectively a Championship title deciding game at Championship prices is obviously going to be more appealing than a Premier League relegation battle at Premier League prices.

 

No. Not obviously at all. I would expect a Saints "local derby" like this in the PL to sell out both in the home and away ends. I'm surprised it hasn't; and I'm especially surprised Reading fans have been so ambivolent about it.

 

A stadium expansion wouldn't be based on the assumption we'll be battling it out at the bottom of the league every season. It is only worth doing if it coincides with investment at first team level to make the product appealing to a wider fanbase. As things stand, we aren't a great side, yet are still close to maxing out our ground, Turkish in particular always fails to grasp this.

I think, if I'm honest, its you that fails to understand. We KNOW that Saints will become more popular if we are a successful side. We KNOW that investment is necessary for that (and that we spent £30M odd in the summer suggests its underway). What anyone has ever said in response to you is that we should wait and see; see where we are, see where we can realistically get to. Your line of thinking seems to be "Cortese has previously mentioned a 50K stadium so that's the only option for growth". It clearly isn't. Studies on attendances may well lead him ot revise that downwards; to 45k, 40k, 36K, hell he may not think its worth it at all. He may not even be here!

 

So, you see, I think everyone knows that our gates could rise in future with a consistently better side; I'm fairly sure I haven't seen anyone disagree with the assessment. What is completely unknown is just how high they could rise; that's what these next seasons are about, checking out what the actual demand is compared to an original speculative figure.

[Turkish]

And even then, Dorkish is not correct in including me. I never said that we needed a 50,000 seater stadium now. He can't find a post from me saying that and yet he continuously parrots it like a stuck record, presumably hoping that if he says it often enough, people will actually believe it. Regarding the man walking on the moon, that is what is called an analogy. A bit like his analogy that players are like supermarket workers who will move jobs to a rival supermarket for an extra £ an hour. I used it to illustrate that you never say never about such things as our potential future development. I note that Adkins used the analogy of Bannister's sub four minute mile to illustrate some point regarding something else deemed to be impossible or improbable, but Dorkish doesn't appear to ridicule Adkins over it.

 

But it is satisfying to note that other posters are getting very tired at this constant repetitive crowing from Dorkish about how clever he is to adopt his position over attendances and catchment areas, and how stupid others must be to disagree with him.

 

 

this is getting silly now Les. You have commented on EVERY thread i have posted on today about me, or in response to me yet you have me on ignore. How utterly embarassing can you get?!

[Sour Mash]

vs Reading with 3 more days of ticket sales to come, blocks 1 to 42 have only 1,852 available seats.

 

At no point did I say games against weak teams with Saints in a relegation scrap would sell out long in advance of kickoff. But with 3 days of selling time to go, we will get close to capacity of a 32,000 stadium to watch a relatively poor Saints side in the relegation zone.

 

For a team in a relegation fight that is very good, the demand would only go up if we were doing well this season. Kraken's and Turkish's arguments fall apart on this and they still don't get it. We are nearly maxing out the stadium watching a relegation scrap, if the team was any good the stadium would simply be too small.

But surely when taking ground expansion into consideration for a team our size, the likelihood of periods towards the bottom of the Prem (or lower), must be built into any plans? We have invested heavily in the playing side, having exciting, attacking talent from home and abroad, have only lost one home game in the last three months, yet still there are no signs that demand for tickets significantly outstrips supply. Edited 5 December, 2012 by Sour Mash

[The Kraken]

Pretty sure most of those seats were in the away end so love how you try and spin it as a negative.

 

I'm not going to respond to the rest as this bit is so ridiculous. As I said to MLG; I was the one who started threads saying that we had sold out against Man United and Spurs two weeks in advance. So how does that fit in with an anti-Saints agenda?

 

Again, where have I said our attendances are bad? Where have I said that in this thread; please point it out.

 

i hope you enjoyed typing all those stats out; because you've entirely missed the point!

Edited 5 December, 2012 by The Kraken

[Turkish]

vs Reading with 3 more days of ticket sales to come, blocks 1 to 42 have only 1,852 available seats.

 

At no point did I say games against weak teams with Saints in a relegation scrap would sell out long in advance of kickoff. But with 3 days of selling time to go, we will get close to capacity of a 32,000 stadium to watch a relatively poor Saints side in the relegation zone.

 

For a team in a relegation fight that is very good, the demand would only go up if we were doing well this season. Kraken's and Turkish's arguments fall apart on this and they still don't get it. We are nearly maxing out the stadium watching a relegation scrap, if the team was any good the stadium would simply be too small.

 

Not quite MLG. See this 'ere post, this one where you said and i quote "Will be some mighty scrambles for tickets next season!" CAn you explain why this has not been the case for any game this season with the exception of possibly Man U and SPurs? Most people accepted we'd probably be in a relegation struggle this season, didn't seem to be a factor in your post here though does it.

 

http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?39226-Final-season-ticket-holder-number

[Sour Mash]

Pretty sure most of those seats were in the away end so love how you try and spin it as a negative. Does sound a bit anti-Saints as you don't offer any middle ground in your argument. Hate going all statistical but I think its time to show just how stupid your argument is in the hope your stop creating or contributing to these threads anymore....

 

Based on the last 4 home games

Our capacity is 32363.

So these were the attendances for the last 4 home games and what % they were

Norwich = 29,325 = 91% full.

Newcastle = 31,410 = 97% full.

Swansea = 30,501 = 94% full

Spurs = 31,944 = 99% full.

 

So your whole criticism is based on your opinion anything other then 100% full = bad. As what is the dividing line between good and bad?

 

Let's put the past 4 games into one big number which makes it easier to compare to other clubs.

32,363 x 4 = 129,452 seats available over the past 4 home games. 29,325 + 31,410 + 30,501 + 31,944 = 123,180 people buying seats.

123,180 divide by 129,452 x 100 = 95% of the stadium full based over the past 4 games.

 

So then let's have a look to see how that compares to other clubs.

Liverpool = 45,276 capacity

Last 4 home attendances = 44,525. , 44,913, 44,803, 37,521 (Swansea) = 181,104 seats available, 171,762 seats sold = 95% full.

 

Newcastle = 52,404 Capacity

Last 4 home attendances = 43,858 , 49,403 (Swansea) , 51,855, 49,701 = 209616 seats available, 194,817 seats sold = 92% full.

 

Norwich (one of the cheapest tickets for football in the country) = 27,303 capacity

Last 4 home games = 26,288, 26,840, 26,002, 26,825 = 109,212 seats available, 105,955 seats sold = 97%

 

Everton = 40,157 capacity

Last 4 home games = 37,141, 34,502, 35,999, 39,163 (against Liverpool). = 160,628 seats available, 146, 805 seats sold = 91% full.

 

Aston Villa = 42, 788 capacity

Last 4 home games = 28,692, 34,607, 40,538 (against Man U), 33,184 = 171,152 seats available, 137,021 sold = 80% full.

 

West Brom = 26,457 capacity

Last 4 home games = 24,739, 25,933, 25,635, 24,861 = 105,828 seats available, 101,168 sold = 95% full.

 

etc etc

 

In fact you can do the entire league and see even teams like Man Utd, Chelsea, Man City, Arsenal are not 100% sold out.

 

So to put into perspective what your saying. Your saying a % of attendance over our recent games which is higher then Liverpool, Everton, Villa, Newcastle, Wigan, Sunderland, West Brom, QPR etc is bad?

 

Think it is safe to say your just trolling because anyone who thinks that is an idiot.

I don't think anyone is saying our support is "bad" are they? Just that suggestions that there would be a particular need for St Marys to be expanded now that we were back in the Prem and investing significantly in players has been shown to be over-optimistic; would you not agree?

[Matthew Le God]

But surely when taking ground expansion into consideration for a team our size, the likelihood of periods towards the bottom of the Prem (or lower), must be built into any plans? We have invested heavily in the playing side, having excited attacking talent from home and abroad, have only lost one home game in the last three months, yet still there are no signs that demand for tickets significantly outstrips supply.

 

Do you think Aston Villa need a 40k stadium? This season they have had any attendance similar to the lowest Saints attendance at 28k, but also when Man Utd strolled into town 40k turned up.

 

If Villa Park was capped at 32,000 capacity this season then their average would be similar to Southampton's. Yet Villa when they were riding high in 6th place in recent years were averaging close to their 40k capacity.

Edited 5 December, 2012 by Matthew Le God

[St Marco]

I'm not going to respond to the rest as this bit is so ridiculous. As I said to MLG; I was the one who started threads saying that we had sold out against Man United and Spurs two weeks in advance. So how does that fit in with an anti-Saints agenda?

 

Again, where have I said our attendances are bad? Where have I said that in this thread; please point it out.

 

Because your trying to imply in the thread we would sell out the dell really quickly as we had the demand while trying to imply that we no longer sell out quickly even though we have to sell an additional 17000 tickets to do so at St Mary's....Basically trying to say the demand is not as high which is wrong.

[Turkish]

Pretty sure most of those seats were in the away end so love how you try and spin it as a negative. Does sound a bit anti-Saints as you don't offer any middle ground in your argument. Hate going all statistical but I think its time to show just how stupid your argument is in the hope your stop creating or contributing to these threads anymore....

 

Based on the last 4 home games

Our capacity is 32363.

So these were the attendances for the last 4 home games and what % they were

Norwich = 29,325 = 91% full.

Newcastle = 31,410 = 97% full.

Swansea = 30,501 = 94% full

Spurs = 31,944 = 99% full.

 

So your whole criticism is based on your opinion anything other then 100% full = bad. As what is the dividing line between good and bad?

 

Let's put the past 4 games into one big number which makes it easier to compare to other clubs.

32,363 x 4 = 129,452 seats available over the past 4 home games. 29,325 + 31,410 + 30,501 + 31,944 = 123,180 people buying seats.

123,180 divide by 129,452 x 100 = 95% of the stadium full based over the past 4 games.

 

So then let's have a look to see how that compares to other clubs.

Liverpool = 45,276 capacity

Last 4 home attendances = 44,525. , 44,913, 44,803, 37,521 (Swansea) = 181,104 seats available, 171,762 seats sold = 95% full.

 

Newcastle = 52,404 Capacity

Last 4 home attendances = 43,858 , 49,403 (Swansea) , 51,855, 49,701 = 209616 seats available, 194,817 seats sold = 92% full.

 

Norwich (one of the cheapest tickets for football in the country) = 27,303 capacity

Last 4 home games = 26,288, 26,840, 26,002, 26,825 = 109,212 seats available, 105,955 seats sold = 97%

 

Everton = 40,157 capacity

Last 4 home games = 37,141, 34,502, 35,999, 39,163 (against Liverpool). = 160,628 seats available, 146, 805 seats sold = 91% full.

 

Aston Villa = 42, 788 capacity

Last 4 home games = 28,692, 34,607, 40,538 (against Man U), 33,184 = 171,152 seats available, 137,021 sold = 80% full.

 

West Brom = 26,457 capacity

Last 4 home games = 24,739, 25,933, 25,635, 24,861 = 105,828 seats available, 101,168 sold = 95% full.

 

etc etc

 

In fact you can do the entire league and see even teams like Man Utd, Chelsea, Man City, Arsenal are not 100% sold out.

 

So to put into perspective what your saying. Your saying a % of attendance over our recent games which is higher then Liverpool, Everton, Villa, Newcastle, Wigan, Sunderland, West Brom, QPR etc is bad?

 

Think it is safe to say your just trolling because anyone who thinks that is an idiot.

 

So our stadium being c94% full on average suggests it's about the right size for us right now, no?

[Sour Mash]

Do you think Aston Villa need a 40k stadium? This season they have had any attendance lower than the lowest Saints attendance at 28k, but also when Man Utd strolled into town 40k turned up.

 

If Villa Park was capped at 32,000 capacity this season then their average would be similar to Southampton's. Yet Villa when they were riding high in 6th place in recent years were averaging close to their 40k capacity.

I think if Villa currently had a 32k seater ground, they wouldn't be planning to expand it to 40k just so those seats could be used a couple of times a season.

[Sour Mash]

Because your trying to imply in the thread we would sell out the dell really quickly as we had the demand while trying to imply that we no longer sell out quickly even though we have to sell an additional 17000 tickets to do so at St Mary's....Basically trying to say the demand is not as high which is wrong.

That's not what he's saying is it.

[Turkish]

Do you think Aston Villa need a 40k stadium? This season they have had any attendance lower than the lowest Saints attendance at 28k, but also when Man Utd strolled into town 40k turned up.

 

If Villa Park was capped at 32,000 capacity this season then their average would be similar to Southampton's. Yet Villa when they were riding high in 6th place in recent years were averaging close to their 40k capacity.

 

But Aston Villas capacity is already there, they aren't claiming they need to spend £18m to expand for one that is only c90% at the moment.

[Matthew Le God]

Will be some mighty scrambles for tickets next season!" CAn you explain why this has not been the case for any game this season

 

Did I say every game? No

 

Have some games already this season been sold out 1 to 2 weeks before matchday - yes - Man Utd and Spurs for example

 

Have we played every home game yet? No

 

Have Saints still got to play Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool at home? Yes

 

The last game of the season will also sell quickly vs Stoke. As will others close to the end of the season if there is still someone signicant riding on them late in the season.

[The Kraken]

I don't think anyone is saying our support is "bad" are they? Just that suggestions that there would be a particular need for St Marys to be expanded now that we were back in the Prem and investing significantly in players has been shown to be over-optimistic; would you not agree?

 

Exactly. Is it really that difficult a suggestion for others to grasp?

 

The sheer effort that must have gone into Marco's keyboard thumping rant just to entirely miss the point is quite stunning. I've even said myself in this thread how I envisage that in future I think we might need a 40K stadium!! Really is quite unbelievable.

[The Kraken]

Because your trying to imply in the thread we would sell out the dell really quickly as we had the demand while trying to imply that we no longer sell out quickly even though we have to sell an additional 17000 tickets to do so at St Mary's....Basically trying to say the demand is not as high which is wrong.

 

What on earth? I'm not trying to imply that at all. I've not even mentioned the Dell.

 

I think you must be very confused.

[The Kraken]

Did I say every game? No

 

Have some games already this season been sold out 1 to 2 weeks before matchday - yes - Man Utd and Spurs for example

 

Have we played every home game yet? No

 

Have Saints still got to play Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool at home? Yes

 

The last game of the season will also sell quickly vs Stoke. As will others close to the end of the season if there is still someone signicant riding on them late in the season.

 

MLG; just so we can cut through a lot of this. As opposed to waiting for 2, 3 seasons before deciding what capacity stadium we should/should not increase to. What are you suggesting the club should do?

 

Genuinely. I'm not sure I understand what point you're trying to make, or what you're suggesting the club should do (other than "wait and see", which is what I and others are suggesting).

[Turkish]

Did I say every game? No

 

Have some games already this season been sold out 1 to 2 weeks before matchday - yes - Man Utd and Spurs for example

 

Have Saints still got to play Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool at home? Yes

 

The last game of the season will also sell quickly vs Stoke. As will others close to the end of the season if there is still someone signicant riding on them late in the season.

 

Ahh, of course, silly me, when you said there was going to be an almighty scramble for tickets this season you obviously only meant the big games, i thought you were suggesting that it would be like it for every game, afterall, we only have 5.5k matchday tickets available to sell didn't you like to remind us constantly that we sold out for a game against Bolton in 2004?

[Matthew Le God]

I think if Villa currently had a 32k seater ground, they wouldn't be planning to expand it to 40k just so those seats could be used a couple of times a season.

 

But Aston Villas capacity is already there, they aren't claiming they need to spend £18m to expand for one that is only c90% at the moment.

 

Villa have shown that when they were riding high under O'Neil a 40k stadium is fine for them. When they aren't doing well and Saints aren't doing well Villa's attendances and ours are similar. So can't they be similar when we are doing well?

 

And as for Turkish, Villa have spent alot on Villa Park over the last 20 years. Are you suggesting we should never touch St Mary's again? Stadiums evolve and under FFP we need to maximise revenue, which is why Cortese commissioned AFL architects to not just look at expanding stadium capacity but also other revenue streams on site and the surrounding area.

[Turkish]

Villa have shown that when they were riding high under O'Neil a 40k stadium is fine for them. When they aren't doing well and Saints aren't doing well Villa's attendances and ours are similar. So can't they be similar when we are doing well?

 

And as for Turkish, Villa have spent alot on Villa Park over the last 20 years. Are you suggesting we should never touch St Mary's again? Stadiums evolve and under FFP we need to maximise revenue, which is why Cortese commissioned AFL architects to not just look at expanding stadium capacity but also other revenue streams on site and the surrounding area.

 

I'm saying we shouldn't spend fortunes on expanding it like you were championing a few months ago when there is concrete evidence that expansion is needed. the fact this mad scramble for tickets you promised hasn't materialised and that the builders didn't start work after the final whistle of the coventry games suggests i am right and cortese agrees with me.

[St Marco]

I don't think anyone is saying our support is "bad" are they? Just that suggestions that there would be a particular need for St Marys to be expanded now that we were back in the Prem and investing significantly in players has been shown to be over-optimistic; would you not agree?

 

My personal opinion is that additional 5% would be impossible to fill right now. Especially when we have a no mans land between Northam and Itchen wing.

 

The club could attract many more people to games if the tickets were cheaper. We have amongst the most expensive match tickets in the country. If the highest was £30 and lowest say £15 we would get a lot more people wanting to come to the games.

Football as a whole is pricing the average fan out. In England it is a joke how much it costs. We need to follow the German way and build bigger stadiums and cheaper tickets. I stayed in Stuttgart for a few months with work awhile back and going to the game cost me about £7 and that included free travel. Every game was sold out that I went to. In England we seem to have gone the other way where we want to keep things small but charge those who go more. The tickets will continue to go up and up here and that will mean fewer people can afford to go.

 

So it isn't about demand or how many fans we have. We took 45k to Wembley while in league one. That shows we have higher support the 32k. If we had tickets the same as in Germany i.e £10 max then we would easily get another 5000-10000 fans no hassles at all.

But we won't do that as it isn't the English way.

[Matthew Le God]

MLG; just so we can cut through a lot of this. As opposed to waiting for 2, 3 seasons before deciding what capacity stadium we should/should not increase to. What are you suggesting the club should do?

 

Genuinely. I'm not sure I understand what point you're trying to make, or what you're suggesting the club should do (other than "wait and see", which is what I and others are suggesting).

 

I'm saying we shouldn't spend fortunes on expanding it like you were championing a few months ago when there is concrete evidence that expansion is needed. the fact this mad scramble for tickets you promised hasn't materialised and that the builders didn't start work after the final whistle of the coventry games suggests i am right and cortese agrees with me.

 

As we don't have a bigger stadium than 32k, it is impossible to know until you do enlarge it if you got the size right. The club originally proposed a 25,000 seater stadium at Stoneham in the 1990's, they based that on what they knew from the information they got from our time at the 15,000 seater Dell. Do you agree that if we had moved to a 25k Stoneham stadium it would have been too small?

 

Cortese commissioned AFL to design early plans for St Mary's expansion, he has talked of his desire for 45k to 50k, yet when I mention it I'm personally ridiculed.

Edited 5 December, 2012 by Matthew Le God

[Saints foreva]

Pretty sure most of those seats were in the away end so love how you try and spin it as a negative. Does sound a bit anti-Saints as you don't offer any middle ground in your argument. Hate going all statistical but I think its time to show just how stupid your argument is in the hope your stop creating or contributing to these threads anymore....

 

Based on the last 4 home games

Our capacity is 32363.

So these were the attendances for the last 4 home games and what % they were

Norwich = 29,325 = 91% full.

 

Club must have lied about that attendance as it looked less than 28,000.

 

Do you think Aston Villa need a 40k stadium? This season they have had any attendance lower than the lowest Saints attendance at 28k, but also when Man Utd strolled into town 40k turned up.

 

If Villa Park was capped at 32,000 capacity this season then their average would be similar to Southampton's. Yet Villa when they were riding high in 6th place in recent years were averaging close to their 40k capacity.

 

We easily had less than 28,000 for the Fulham game, the attendance was so poor that the club didn't even publish it anywhere.

 

FWIW to have almost 2,000 tickets left for the Reading game is very poor considering it's a massive relegation battle.

[Turkish]

My personal opinion is that additional 5% would be impossible to fill right now. Especially when we have a no mans land between Northam and Itchen wing.

 

The club could attract many more people to games if the tickets were cheaper. We have amongst the most expensive match tickets in the country. If the highest was £30 and lowest say £15 we would get a lot more people wanting to come to the games.

Football as a whole is pricing the average fan out. In England it is a joke how much it costs. We need to follow the German way and build bigger stadiums and cheaper tickets. I stayed in Stuttgart for a few months with work awhile back and going to the game cost me about £7 and that included free travel. Every game was sold out that I went to. In England we seem to have gone the other way where we want to keep things small but charge those who go more. The tickets will continue to go up and up here and that will mean fewer people can afford to go.

 

So it isn't about demand or how many fans we have. We took 45k to Wembley while in league one. That shows we have higher support the 32k. If we had tickets the same as in Germany i.e £10 max then we would easily get another 5000-10000 fans no hassles at all.

But we won't do that as it isn't the English way.

 

 

I dont disagree football is far too expensive in this country, but do you really think cortese is going to reduce prices to £15 to sell 10,000 more tickets after spending c£15-£20m to expand the stadium?

 

As for your point on Wembley support, Millwall and Luton have both taken 50K to Wembley in recent seasons, do they need a 50k stadium as well?

[Thedelldays]

Club must have lied about that attendance as it looked less than 28,000.

 

 

 

We easily had less than 28,000 for the Fulham game, the attendance was so poor that the club didn't even publish it anywhere.

 

FWIW to have almost 2,000 tickets left for the Reading game is very poor considering it's a massive relegation battle.

its £35 a frickin ticket in block 3.....it cost me £73 for 2 tickets in block 3.....way too expensive IMO

[Turkish]

As we don't have a bigger stadium than 32k, it is impossible to know until you do enlarge it if you got the size right. The club originally proposed a 25,000 seater stadium at Stoneham in the 1990's, they based that on what they knew from the information they got from our time at the 15,000 seater Dell. Do you agree that if we had moved to a 25k Stoneham stadium it would have been too small?

 

Cortese commissioned AFL to design early plans for St Mary's expansion, he has talked of his desire for 45k to 50k, yet when I mention it I'm personally ridiculed.

 

The FACT that we aren't filling st Marys for most home games suggests it's about right for us right now, yes?

[Matthew Le God]

We easily had less than 28,000 for the Fulham game, the attendance was so poor that the club didn't even publish it anywhere.

 

Well that simply isn't true, on the Saints OS it is listed as... 28,004

 

http://www.saintsfc.co.uk/fixtures-results/match-report/index.aspx?matchid=3528311

[The Kraken]

As we don't have a bigger stadium than 32k, it is impossible to know until you do enlarge it if you got the size right. The club originally proposed a 25,000 seater stadium at Stoneham in the 1990's, they based that on what they knew from the information they got from our time at the 15,000 seater Dell. Do you agree that if we had moved to a 25k Stoneham stadium it would have been too small?

 

Cortese commissioned AFL to design early plans for St Mary's expansion, he has talked of his desire for 45k to 50k, yet when I mention it I'm personally ridiculed.

 

Yes. A long term desire, an ambition. It may well be scaled down from that. He also said a 5 year plan, which changed. He also said many other things, which have changed, some for the good some for the bad. You simply can't take a throwaway comment such as that as plain fact that we are 100% definitely going to do it.

 

But you didn't answer the question; what are you suggesting the club should do? I'll lead off with my suggestion if its easier. I suggest the club monitor attendances for at least 2-3 years. If there is overwhelming evidence that a considerably bigger stadium can be filled (using the current financial model) and its financially viable to do so, we should do it. if there isn't that evidence, we should keep monitoring the situation and take a decision on whether to do it after each subsequent season.

 

Given that Cortese once said something about a desire to be housed in a 50k stadium; are you saying that we should now build one? That's what it seems like. Happy to hear a clarification.

[Matthew Le God]

The FACT that we aren't filling st Marys for most home games suggests it's about right for us right now, yes?

 

...as a team in the relegation zone for the majority of the 15 games so far.

 

Do you not think that if we were mid table or higher we wouldn't need a bigger stadium? Even this season we could have had a higher average than the current 30,389 if we weren't restricted to 32k for the Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool, Man City, Chelsea etc game.

[Matthew Le God]

Yes. A long term desire, an ambition. It may well be scaled down from that. He also said a 5 year plan, which changed. He also said many other things, which have changed, some for the good some for the bad. You simply can't take a throwaway comment such as that as plain fact that we are 100% definitely going to do it.

 

But you didn't answer the question; what are you suggesting the club should do? I'll lead off with my suggestion if its easier. I suggest the club monitor attendances for at least 2-3 years. If there is overwhelming evidence that a considerably bigger stadium can be filled (using the current financial model) and its financially viable to do so, we should do it. if there isn't that evidence, we should keep monitoring the situation and take a decision on whether to do it after each subsequent season.

 

Given that Cortese once said something about a desire to be housed in a 50k stadium; are you saying that we should now build one? That's what it seems like. Happy to hear a clarification.

 

What about my Stoneham questions...?

[The Kraken]

What about my Stoneham questions...?

 

They're irrelevant. Stoneham has been and gone. 25K would have been too small, which means that the estimates for that size of stadium requried were wrong at the time. I don't see how its valid. But like I say that's irrelevant now.

[Matthew Le God]

They're irrelevant. Stoneham has been and gone. 25K would have been too small, which means that the estimates for that size of stadium requried were wrong at the time. I don't see how its valid. But like I say that's irrelevant now.

 

Well what was the 25k capacity for Stoneham based on...? Evidence from the 15k Dell which was clearly wrong.

 

Until you build it you can never really know, maybe what I'm saying at 45k+ is too big, maybe your 40k is too small. Until it is built you can never really know. Which is what I was raising with the Stoneham example.

[The Kraken]

Well what was the 25k capacity for Stoneham based on... evidence from the Dell which was clearly wrong.

 

Until you build it you can never really know, maybe what I'm saying at 45k+ is too big, maybe your 40k is too small. Until it is built you can never really know. Which is what I was raising with the Stoneham example.

 

So 42,500 then??!!

[Wes Tender]

I think that we really could do with a thread in the Lounge devoted entirely to attendances and catchment areas. At this rate, it would soon catch up with the Pompey thread and potentially overtake it, as posts are added before each and every match. It will be a lot tidier than having other threads hijacked by the usal suspects the minute that somebody posts an observation on some unrelated thread that there were empty seats in the stadium.

[up and away]

I'm saying we shouldn't spend fortunes on expanding it like you were championing a few months ago when there is concrete evidence that expansion is needed. the fact this mad scramble for tickets you promised hasn't materialised and that the builders didn't start work after the final whistle of the coventry games suggests i am right and cortese agrees with me.

 

No one was saying to spend fortunes unless the need was there, this is your own invention. That was perfectly obvious from Corteses original statement where demand will create the need. Now as pitch performances is going to influence this area heavily, it should come as no surprise that we don't need extra seats. Just look at Sunderland in their horrendous Premier year compared by a less than stellar season so far.

 

Cortese was looking at building the financial base of the club to the next level as per Newcastle, Spurs etc. But for that to happen you need the drive from the team which clearly is not there at present. Put in just Norwich type results against us at this moment and we will have the CL idiots out in force. instead of these individual agendas.

[Matthew Le God]

So 42,500 then??!!

 

Deal.

 

Lets phone the city council planning office and get it built!

[The Kraken]

Deal.

 

Lets phone the city council planning office and get it built!

 

I can't believe you've argued with me all these years over a difference of 2,500 in proposed capacity. I feel cheated.

 

[Matthew Le God]

I think this thread has come to its natural conclusion.

 

Turkish, don't bother starting a new thread called "Sunderland attendance" for the game on the 22nd, Kraken and I have sorted it!

 

[St Marco]

I dont disagree football is far too expensive in this country, but do you really think cortese is going to reduce prices to £15 to sell 10,000 more tickets after spending c£15-£20m to expand the stadium?

 

As for your point on Wembley support, Millwall and Luton have both taken 50K to Wembley in recent seasons, do they need a 50k stadium as well?

 

No chance in hell Cortese or whoever is chairman is going to put prices down. It is against our culture. People charge whatever they want and we put up with it.

 

As I mentioned other countries do it differently and they benefit hugely from it.

Say for example you got a 40000 seater stadium and you charge £25 for a ticket. But due to the price you can only sell 33k (Everton). Thats £825k a match. Then say you have a 60000 seater stadium and you charge £15 a ticket which is full. Thats 900k a game.

More people in the stadium means more drink/merchandise sales which would create more profit. So say just on the games you play 19 at home and each is full that is an additional 75k a game x 19 = £1.425m a season just from league games.

If it costs £20m to extend the stadium that would have been recouped in 14 years (based purely on home league games).

To think of it another way we could of this season not bought Ramirez and Jay Rod and used that money to upgrade. If we got relegated we would naturally have to decrease ticket prices further. Say in CCC a match cost £10 and we sell 40000 a game that would be £400k a game x 23 games = £9m+ a season. Which is a huge amount for that league.

 

That is obviously just an assumption and I doubt would never happen but if I were in charge I would expand it and make the tickets cheaper.