The little evils of capitalism

[pap]

Great example of how even respected media can spin a story.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20528352

 

It's not the insurers. The government doesn't have a responsiblity to secure its citizens. It's those gamblers rolling the dice on "picturesque at a discount".

 

Arf.

[Barry Sanchez]

I didn't answer the question for a couple of reasons . First, it's not your business (but not important). Second, dune or not, you're a needy little bollix. Take it as read I won't be responding to every one of your posts. Last, you're probably dune.

 

If you're in the Arkles and you spot me, say hello.

I presume you are a capitalist then, no shame in falling for it, I have and millions of others have as well, the issue arrises when one talks about oneself as Wolfy Smith.

[the stain]

Confirmed sighting of Dune.

[melmacian_saint]

For capitalism to work, failing Companies must be allowed to go bang. Bailing them out with tax payers money creates a win-win situation. Capitalism of the profits, socialism of the losses. And our children and grandchildren have the pleasure of settling the bill.

 

This. End of.

 

Hate how knee-jerk the world has become.

[pap]

I presume you are a capitalist then, no shame in falling for it, I have and millions of others have as well, the issue arrises when one talks about oneself as Wolfy Smith.

 

What do you think capitalism is, Barry? Give us a summary. Would be nice to be singing from the same hymn sheet.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

We're a couple of good eggs. We should pat ourselves on the back. Although I'm actually ow more concerned about Hamilton Saints newspaper situation. Is this included in Mission Critical?

 

Before you award yourselves a Blue Peter Badge just remember that capitalism (with some EU subsidy) has delivered as cheap a food as we could ever have imagined. We effectively have 6 buyers and 250000 suppliers. Look up how many dairy farmers there were 10 years ago and how many there are now. All Bernard Matthews did was to make turkey cheap enough to make it an every day meal choice; people who could never afford turkey could now eat it.

Edited 29 November, 2012 by Sergei Gotsmanov

[Barry Sanchez]

What do you think capitalism is, Barry? Give us a summary. Would be nice to be singing from the same hymn sheet.

 

Dont you think its capitalistic to buy or own a house? I hope yours is a new build as well bcause heaven knows how you could live with yourself if you took ex council housing stock? What would Wolfy do? In fact are there many new builds down Edge Lane? No shame in buying your house but you have to understand the reasons of doing it? Could be worse you could be Wolfy and a buy to let person, taking up all the valuable housing stock and selling it back to the poor.

I dont have you for that though, as for me I am an average Joe Labour Voter, simply believe in a bit more fairness in society thats all.

[the stain]

Before you award yourselves a Blue Peter Badge just remember that capitalism (with some EU subsidy) has delivered as cheap a food as we could ever have imagined. We effectively have 6 buyers and 250000 suppliers. Look up how many dairy farmers there were 10 years ago and how many there are now. All Bernard Matthews did was to make turkey cheap enough to make it an every day meal choice; people who could never afford turkey could now eat it.

 

Not sure I understand the point you're making.

 

So capitalism, the free market, has given us the cheapest food ever? Yet you are happy to admit the role subsidies have played. How is that the free market? That's is not capitalism. The market has been distorted through intervention. It has nothing to do with capitalism. Subsidised food production undermines foreign markets. When I was looking to solve the Mission Critical food security issue I was thinking of the whole world, not just my own belly....but then that's probably one of the major differences between capitalists and those who an see alternatives.

[pap]

Before you award yourselves a Blue Peter Badge just remember that capitalism (with some EU subsidy) has delivered as cheap a food as we could ever have imagined. We effectively have 6 buyers and 250000 suppliers. Look up how many dairy farmers there were 10 years ago and how many there are now. All Bernard Matthews did was to make turkey cheap enough to make it an every day meal choice; people who could never afford turkey could now eat it.

 

I think you may be slightly off the mark, Sergei. Bernard Matthew's business was built on selling as much of the turkey as possible by disguising it as something less rank.

[aintforever]

Before you award yourselves a Blue Peter Badge just remember that capitalism (with some EU subsidy) has delivered as cheap a food as we could ever have imagined. We effectively have 6 buyers and 250000 suppliers. Look up how many dairy farmers there were 10 years ago and how many there are now. All Bernard Matthews did was to make turkey cheap enough to make it an every day meal choice; people who could never afford turkey could now eat it.

 

Whilst 900 million people starve.

[the stain]

as for me I am an average Joe Labour Voter, simply believe in a bit more fairness in society thats all.

 

Course you are, dune.

[pap]

Dont you think its capitalistic to buy or own a house? I hope yours is a new build as well bcause heaven knows how you could live with yourself if you took ex council housing stock? What would Wolfy do? In fact are there many new builds down Edge Lane? No shame in buying your house but you have to understand the reasons of doing it? Could be worse you could be Wolfy and a buy to let person, taking up all the valuable housing stock and selling it back to the poor.

I dont have you for that though, as for me I am an average Joe Labour Voter, simply believe in a bit more fairness in society thats all.

 

One of us is wrong about what capitalism is all about. Might be me, might be you. I was under the illusion that the basic distinction between a capitalist economy and a planned economy falls into two camps.

 

a) who owns the means of production

b) the priorities of the means of production

 

I ask again, what do you think capitalism is?

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

I think you may be slightly off the mark, Sergei. Bernard Matthew's business was built on selling as much of the turkey as possible by disguising it as something less rank.

 

No it was about rearing turkey as cheaply as possible making it more accessible to the millions

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Whilst 900 million people starve.

 

That was more down to EU policy. We used to be forced and paid by the EU to put our arable land out of production (is that 'planned').

[Barry Sanchez]

One of us is wrong about what capitalism is all about. Might be me, might be you. I was under the illusion that the basic distinction between a capitalist economy and a planned economy falls into two camps.

 

a) who owns the means of production

b) the priorities of the means of production

 

I ask again, what do you think capitalism is?

 

 

Capitalism is in effect private ownership of something to gain profit from, in my humble opinion.

[pap]

No it was about rearing turkey as cheaply as possible making it more accessible to the millions

 

Jamie Oliver ran a large campaign against Bernard Matthew's Turkey Twizzlers.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-342395/The-truth-Turkey-Twizzlers.html

 

As cheaply as possible almost led to the collapse of the business.

 

http://www.theecologist.org/green_green_living/behind_the_label/1171257/whats_the_real_cost_of_bernard_matthews_christmas_turkey.html

 

Most professionals have cut a corner or two to get something completed quickly. I can live with that, but not really within the food chain. Cost cutting practices are another little evil of capitalism.

[aintforever]

That was more down to EU policy. We used to be forced and paid by the EU to put our arable land out of production (is that 'planned').

 

I'm talking about the bigger picture. As you said, food for US is cheaper than we could possibly imagine. We can eat and drink until we throw up and it's not even a major expense, while millions around the world will starve to death. That's a product of capitalism.

[Barry Sanchez]

You using right wing propaganda as a tool for your argument is irony at its finest.

[the stain]

Jamie Oliver is a little evil of capitalism.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

I'm talking about the bigger picture. As you said, food for US is cheaper than we could possibly imagine. We can eat and drink until we throw up and it's not even a major expense, while millions around the world will starve to death. That's a product of capitalism.

 

Not really aintforever, capitalism does not believe in subsidy.

[the stain]

I'm talking about the bigger picture. As you said, food for US is cheaper than we could possibly imagine. We can eat and drink until we throw up and it's not even a major expense, while millions around the world will starve to death. That's a product of capitalism.

 

American farmers are so heavily subsidised that the markets for all sorts of agricultural products are distorted and the free market is a myth. The Americans and the EU like to bang on about free trade, but no such thing exists when it comes to how they operate.

[Barry Sanchez]

Not really aintforever, capitalism does not believe in subsidy.

 

Not all the time, the tory public/private system whereby the money is provided by the people and the shareholders take it out.

Edited 29 November, 2012 by Barry Sanchez

[the stain]

Not really aintforever, capitalism does not believe in subsidy.

 

Yep, capitalism doesn't believe in subsidy, but the wealthy capitalist countries dish them out in order to maintain their status.....one rule for poor, another for the wealthy.

[pap]

That was more down to EU policy. We used to be forced and paid by the EU to put our arable land out of production (is that 'planned').

 

Got a measure of agreement with this, Sergei. Massive waste of resources in the midst of world hunger problems. But again, you can point to the priorities of capitalism as a large factor. Do you think that land would have remained inert if priority number one was feeding people?

 

Going back to my supermarket supply chain analogy, the whole enterprise is a bit of a punt, especially when you get away from the essentials. Food suppliers are essentially gambling on what we might like to eat. They can detect that with some accuracy, but a load of stuff, especially fresh stuff, goes to waste. Can't help feeling we'd get a lot more bang for our planet if food production were more discrete and less of an estimate.

[Barry Sanchez]

American farmers are so heavily subsidised that the markets for all sorts of agricultural products are distorted and the free market is a myth. The Americans and the EU like to bang on about free trade, but no such thing exists when it comes to how they operate.

The same as our farmers are paid not to farm but to look after the hedgerows, American steel is a classic example, German car manufacturing as well, the list of protectionism is everywhere and one that if done correctly is pretty much as fair as you will get get in a World of differing trade systems.

[Sergei Gotsmanov]

Yep, capitalism doesn't believe in subsidy, but the wealthy capitalist countries dish them out in order to maintain their status.....one rule for poor, another for the wealthy.

 

In fairness you benefit from subsidy. Unfortunately we are now borrowing to subidise ourselves from China and at some point they will want to take their people out of poverty and ask for the money back.

[pap]

Here's how it's done, people.

 

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/08/top-economists-iceland-did-it-right-everyone-else-is-doing-it-wrong.html

[the stain]

The same as our farmers are paid not to farm but to look after the hedgerows, American steel is a classic example, German car manufacturing as well, the list of protectionism is everywhere and one that if done correctly is pretty much as fair as you will get get in a World of differing trade systems.

 

What? How is protectionism and subsidies "as fair as you will get"? We live in a world with huge gaps between the rich and poor, and that is the result of trade. Where the IMF, WTO and all western governments talk about free trade and push the poorer countries into opening up their markets, but none of them practice it. "The list of protectionism" is NOT everywhere. It is found mainly in the wealthy world and is certainly not fair.

 

However, your simplistic and ignorant views have confirmed your true identity, if there were any doubts left.

[Barry Sanchez]

What a cut and paste of what exactly? Iceland can not be compared to a huge economy of Europe, are we going to sell woolen jumpers and cod oil?

[the stain]

In fairness you benefit from subsidy

 

I am not responsible for introducing subsidies and cannot be held accountable for them. I would remove them if I could.

[Barry Sanchez]

Protectionism can be a good thing as well as bad, what about a growing industry in a poorer Country? That should be protected should it not?

[Barry Sanchez]

I am not responsible for introducing subsidies and cannot be held accountable for them. I would remove them if I could.

Thats very noble of you.

[Barry Sanchez]

What? How is protectionism and subsidies "as fair as you will get"? We live in a world with huge gaps between the rich and poor, and that is the result of trade. Where the IMF, WTO and all western governments talk about free trade and push the poorer countries into opening up their markets, but none of them practice it. "The list of protectionism" is NOT everywhere. It is found mainly in the wealthy world and is certainly not fair.

 

However, your simplistic and ignorant views have confirmed your true identity, if there were any doubts left.

 

No Governments or lack of them have to take some blame not to be fair financial models. China, are they protectionist? They have trillions of dollars in their banks.

[the stain]

Thats very noble of you.

 

There is little point discussing things with you as you have very little real idea of anything. You hear or read something and think you understand it, but really its a superficial understanding and any elaboration on your part exposes your underlying ignorance. Maybe you can go and find some YouTube clips or something.

[Barry Sanchez]

Why would I want to do that? Simply insulting someone is hardly superior and clever is it?

[Barry Sanchez]

I want to discuss your example of opening up to trade, what about the BRIC Countries?

Edited 29 November, 2012 by Barry Sanchez

[Barry Sanchez]

Yep, capitalism doesn't believe in subsidy, but the wealthy capitalist countries dish them out in order to maintain their status.....one rule for poor, another for the wealthy.

 

Go on?

[Barry Sanchez]

What? How is protectionism and subsidies "as fair as you will get"? We live in a world with huge gaps between the rich and poor, and that is the result of trade. Where the IMF, WTO and all western governments talk about free trade and push the poorer countries into opening up their markets, but none of them practice it. "The list of protectionism" is NOT everywhere. It is found mainly in the wealthy world and is certainly not fair.

 

However, your simplistic and ignorant views have confirmed your true identity, if there were any doubts left.

 

 

You do know how many people in these respective industries work in those Countries? To not subsidize would be electoral suicide.

[Barry Sanchez]

Protectionism can be a good thing as well as bad, what about a growing industry in a poorer Country? That should be protected should it not?

 

Again this.

[Hamilton Saint]

What had happened to your paper?

 

Maybe it got delivered to that call centre in Mumbai?

[Tokyo-Saint]

Again this.

 

Quoting yourself? My bail money is at risk I think.

[pap]

Quoting yourself? My bail money is at risk I think.

 

There's just one more thing....

 

[Barry Sanchez]

Pap, I shall be honest you **** out of answers don't you? You ask a question and them continuously run away, I answerse your question on capitalism and yet you fail to answer or even acknowledge it, I said I would meet you for a pint and you flee, your a new keen person on politics lovely, great , I have been in now nearly 20 years woopy ****.

Edited 29 November, 2012 by Barry Sanchez

[Jonnyboy]

My dune-sense is tingling!

[Barry Sanchez]

Who is this dune? Did he kill someone? Why did he get banned?

[pap]

Who is this dune? Did he kill someone? Why did he get banned?

 

dune was a wonderfully limited poster who could talk at short length about any subject; as long as you had no pre-conceptions about getting accurate information. He perpetually provoked without any real conviction, started threads willy-nilly in the insane belief that the number of views was somehow self-validating. You could almost say he structured his entire life around antagonising people on the Internet, SaintsWeb in particular. Fair play to him; he stated his agenda clearly; wind the intelligent people up. Unfortunately, dune always came short in any jousts.

 

The odd thing is, I think he's clever - in a rat-like, scurrying, sneering type of way. That is about the extent of my respect, although there is possibly one more sunbeam in this otherwise cloudy sky. While many pictured dune in their minds as a fat bald loser with zero chick potential, my mental image of him was always of Catwoman from 1960s Batman - causing a lot of trouble and then hissing in the background while real people did the work. It's a more elegant view.

[pap]

Jamie Oliver is a little evil of capitalism.

 

Got a mate who went to school with him. He was not a fan. That said, not worth judging anyone solely on what they were like at school. I think the TV appearances helped.

[Tokyo-Saint]

Have I just read this right, pap wants to **** dune? If not **** him then at least put him in a leather cat suit and pump him for information on the joker. Pap, I am disappointed but not surprised. Since Bletch has been neglecting you, you have gone off the rails. It's not your fault.

[saintbletch]

Who is this dune? Did he kill someone? Why did he get banned?

 

dune was the grit in the oyster Barry Sanchez - the irritant that over the years, day after day, hour after hour, forces the oyster to stop growing and instead lay down layer upon layer of shell around the irritant.

 

Unfortunately when dune's oyster was opened earlier this year, instead of a pearl we all saw a steaming racist turd.

 

But, as with the oyster, he did give us all something to occupy ourselves with.

 

He was also quite witty - in a steaming, racist turd sort of a way.

[Dig Dig]

Confirmed sighting of Dune.

 

 

Nor sure myself, looks like a large domestic cat to me