Saints 1-1 Norwich // Post-Match Reaction

[Lazlo78]

Interesting game in the sense that it was very different from our other games. Usually we are good on the ball and to some extent able to retain possession. However, as soon as the opposition starts pressuring our defense folds. Yesterday we never really got on top of the game, but we didn't crumble either. Norwich had spells in both halves where they laid siege to our goal but we didn't collapse like we usually do.

 

So the negatives were: their goal, that we looked a bit tired, and that we couldn't dominate the game. The positives were: Shaw, that for once we battled our way to a point from a slightly below par performance, and that we kept an unchanged side again which can only lead to some stability.

 

For a neutral the game would probably have been a bit of a bore, but for me it was an entertaining game in the sense that it could have swung both ways. A draw seemed a fair result. After all, Rickie's goal could have been disallowed and I still think a penalty could have been given against Shaw just before he was taken off...

Edited 29 November, 2012 by Lazlo78

[Bourne Valley Saint]

Pretty much a fair result with a lacklustre crowd, weary team and organised opponents. Although Clattenburg didn't offer us a lot in the way of free kicks (I don't think we had one until the one we scored from!), for those morons who were chanting "Racist" at him from the Kingsland and Northam, just ask yourself what did you think it was going to achieve - apart from making yourselves look a complete bunch of tw&ts? Give him stick by all means for being a poor ref (if that is your opinion) but leave those pathetic racist shouts out. Perhaps he could sue you all for defamation of character!

[Appy]

CAN'T, SHOULDN'T replace Gazza, if you do that he won't play again this season, and any confidence he did have will go. The back for need the same keeper, he did fine against Newcastle and QPR.

 

I couldn't give a **** if he loses confidence, he is losing us points.

[Whitey Grandad]

Thanks for agreeing with me that he did get the ball first; Appy must have been watching something else.

 

It begs the question, had the tackle been inside the box, would a penalty have been awarded? The reason I ask, is that it seems that there is one rule for outside the area and another for inside. Also, if a player is going to run the risk of a free kick having made a tackle where he clearly gets a foot to the ball first but the opponent tackled goes down, that is going to be a major factor in changing the dynamics of the game, encouraging players to take a dive. Is it just a case of the referee's interpretation of the rule, or do the rules now say that even though the defender gets the ball first, he must not bring down the attacking player in the process?

It would appear so:

 

[h=1]LAW 12 - FOULS AND MISCONDUCT[/h]

 

[h=3]Direct free kick[/h]A direct free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any of the following seven offences in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force:

 

 

• kicks or attempts to kick an opponent
  
• trips or attempts to trip an opponent
  
• jumps at an opponent
  
• charges an opponent
  
• strikes or attempts to strike an opponent
  
• pushes an opponent
  
• tackles an opponent
  

[Window Cleaner]

It would appear so:

 

[h=1]LAW 12 - FOULS AND MISCONDUCT[/h]

 

[h=3]Direct free kick[/h]A direct free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any of the following seven offences in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force:

 

 

• kicks or attempts to kick an opponent
  
• trips or attempts to trip an opponent
  
• jumps at an opponent
  
• charges an opponent
  
• strikes or attempts to strike an opponent
  
• pushes an opponent
  
• tackles an opponent
  

 

In fact you can see the difference between this season and last. We are just not tackling very much any more. It's obviously something that the coaches have imposed on the players, no tackling unless it's absolutely necessary. Morgan is about the only player in our side who puts in what is to me an acceptable number of tackles per game and then some. New look pansy football à la Platini. Any of our old heroes would have probably lasted less than 5 minutes per game before being shown a red card.

[SB]

I couldn't give a **** if he loses confidence, he is losing us points.

 

It's not like we have worldie goalkeeper sitting on the bench? he's the best we have in regards to defence seeming the most confidenced if possible out of all three.

[Saint86]

Yeah, because Kelvin never made any errors, did he? Gazza's have been appalling but doubly so as they've resulted in goals. Davis has let in some poor goals and made some shocking errors on top of that as well. Neither of them are good enough.

 

The difference is that kelvin was playing behind a **** defense, and in fairness, Gazza has dropped more points for the team in 3 matches against **** opposition than kelvin did against the countries better team. So yeah, KD back in goal please.

[Graffito]

My understanding is it's based on 'excessive force', which is again totally subjective. A tackle that's dangerous or likely to lead to an injury is a foul even if the defender plays the ball first.

 

Haven't seen it on telly but in realtime it looked like a very quick and very well executed tackle, defender gets to the ball first and plays it away, then the defender and fd collide and the fd goes down. Judging by the telly comments above that is what happened.

 

Clattenberg's two calls are 1) did the defender reach the ball first, and 2) was the tackle 'safe' in that it was controlled and that the forward was in no way put at risk. Facts will say Clattenberg got either 1 or 2 or both wrong, and he was wrong to award the freekick, albeit he has to make the decision in realtime with all the other associated pressures.

 

Unfortunately that's what he's paid for and he got it wrong last night (on this and almost everything else too), really really poor game from somebody who is supposed to be one of our top 2 or 3 refs.

 

To add insult he booked him as well. There were fouls in that match that deserved yellows, one in the first half when Ramirez or Lallana (I can't remember for certain) was clean away and was blatantly tripped from behind and no booking.

[Wes Tender]

It would appear so:

 

[h=1]LAW 12 - FOULS AND MISCONDUCT[/h]

 

[h=3]Direct free kick[/h]A direct free kick is awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any of the following seven offences in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force:

 

 

• kicks or attempts to kick an opponent
  
• trips or attempts to trip an opponent
  
• jumps at an opponent
  
• charges an opponent
  
• strikes or attempts to strike an opponent
  
• pushes an opponent
  
• tackles an opponent
  

 

Thanks for unearthing that, WG.

 

So in your opinion, which of those applied in Clyne's tackle? Was he careless? Reckless? Used excessive force?

 

Neither seemed to apply as far as I could see and if it happened within the box, then would Clattenburg have awarded a penalty?

 

No, as I say, that rule opens up either discouraging defenders to tackle in case they give away free kicks or penalties, or it encourages defenders to dive to seek a free kick or penalty. Looking at our recent games, there have been numerous occasions where our players have been tripped, charged, barged, pushed, or tackled so that the player was bundled over in much the same way. And I don't recall much in the way of sympathy from the referees for our players.

 

When we were in the third division we had some very poor refereeing and that was perhaps to be expected. But the standard of referees and linesmen in the top division often seems to be just as poor somehow.

[Chez]

CAN'T, SHOULDN'T replace Gazza, if you do that he won't play again this season, and any confidence he did have will go. The back for need the same keeper, he did fine against Newcastle and QPR.

he was crap against QPR. Forget the goal, I don't blame him for that, but his all round game at Loftus Road was poor.

[Thedelldays]

It's not like we have worldie goalkeeper sitting on the bench? he's the best we have in regards to defence seeming the most confidenced if possible out of all three.

why is he the best we have...why the gazza love-in on here..?

[Griffo]

2 things. 1) Why did most of you all laugh and clap along to Sammy Saint dancing? It wasn't funny. You must be very simple if you find a man dancing around in a dog suit funny. 2) The Itchen North is sh*t now. Do you think Norwich are going to be offended by us singing "Small town in Ipswich" to them? It's like other clubs singing play up Pompey to us. It's boring.

Edited 29 November, 2012 by Griffo

[Chez]

Chez i agree with a lot of that but your assessment of Yoshida is wrong IMO. He did well against the hussle of Hoult, he is settling in more and is not making rash tackles in dangerous areas.

 

actually he doesn't make any tackles, he just let's player do what they want. He has a massive `after you sir' style to him. Centre backs should be bullying forwards. He doesn't get tight, he doesn't force strikers to go where they don't want to go. He almost never takes the optimum position when faced by a high ball forcing the attacker to foul him. Positionally he is poor, he also doesn't mark players, especially at corners. He is comfortable on the ball, and I do see him talking, but his passing has got worse with every game. Last night he was appalling. Some of he passes were suicidal. I realise that playing there is a tough job. One week its Holt, the next its Tevez. But the fact is he is keeping Jos out of the side who was dropped for a few mistakes whilst playing in a very open side. The formation has changed and we are much tighter. Jos would benefit from that as Fonte has and should be brought back into the fold. It's not going to happen, so I hope Yoshida improves.

[Chez]

why is he the best we have...why the gazza love-in on here..?

 

not from me. His confidence looks shot to pieces and he should be dropped IMO. He could well turn out to be a fine keeper, certainly the save against Newcastle was top draw, but if for every great save like that there is a incident like last night then he is not proving his worth. Davis commands his area better, sweeps better, kicks better, organises better.

[pingwing]

why is he the best we have...why the gazza love-in on here..?

 

Well what else do we have? Davis who has conceded 16 in 4 games. No league in the world would find that acceptable.

 

Boruc who clearly hasn't bothered training well after 2 lack luster appearances.

 

Cooper suddenly worth a punt?

 

We are pretty much stuck either confusing the back four and throwing anyone out and conceding lots of bad goals that are the difference between 0 and 1 point or play someone that generally concedes one and we just have to score 2/3 to win....

[Thedelldays]

Well what else do we have? Davis who has conceded 16 in 4 games. No league in the world would find that acceptable.

 

Boruc who clearly hasn't bothered training well after 2 lack luster appearances.

 

Cooper suddenly worth a punt?

 

We are pretty much stuck either confusing the back four and throwing anyone out and conceding lots of bad goals that are the difference between 0 and 1 point or play someone that generally concedes one and we just have to score 2/3 to win....

why have you decided boruc hasnt bothered training..?

[Wes Tender]

2 things. 1) Why did most of you all laugh and clap along to Sammy Saint dancing? It wasn't funny. You must be very simple if you find a man dancing around in a dog suit funny. 2) The Itchen North is sh*t now. Do you think Norwich are going to be offended by us singing "Small town in Ipswich" to them? It's like other clubs singing play up Pompey to us. It's boring.

 

Don't stop there. Let's have your list of the top 10 items that you find cringeworthy at a football match.

 

I'm sure that you can find another eight as there is plenty of scope beyond what they shouldn't consider funny of what they shouldn't chant.

 

For myself, I'm a live and let live sort of bloke mostly.

[Appy]

It's not like we have worldie goalkeeper sitting on the bench? he's the best we have in regards to defence seeming the most confidenced if possible out of all three.

 

He isn't the best we have.

[SB]

He isn't the best we have.

 

Who is?

[pingwing]

why have you decided boruc hasnt bothered training..?

 

Well why has he turned up massively out of shape, featured twice and then not heard a peep out of since. If he suddenly starts and is looking in at least better shape physically then yeah I am wrong, but considering how quiet the club has been on the Boruc front (not making any more u21's appearances) it is a fairly reasonable assumption that he is not training too well with the squad or not putting the effort in to be no.1

[Thedelldays]

Well why has he turned up massively out of shape, featured twice and then not heard a peep out of since. If he suddenly starts and is looking in at least better shape physically then yeah I am wrong, but considering how quiet the club has been on the Boruc front (not making any more u21's appearances) it is a fairly reasonable assumption that he is not training too well with the squad or not putting the effort in to be no.1

he turned up out of shape as he had no pre season what so ever...remember, it took us 10 games to register a win in good old league 1 without a pre season

[Appy]

Who is?

 

Davis and Boruc.

[ant]

2 things. 1) Why did most of you all laugh and clap along to Sammy Saint dancing? It wasn't funny. You must be very simple if you find a man dancing around in a dog suit funny.

 

I spent most of Sammy Saint's 'performance' on my mobile (I'm on the Youtube video towards the end if you require evidence) and didn't clap along, but regrettably did let the odd smirk slip.

 

Do I scrape a pass on the Griffo test?

 

Gangnam Style is beyond contrived but some of the fans present enjoyed it, you didn't. Don't be so joyless and elitist.

[trousers]

To add insult he booked him as well. There were fouls in that match that deserved yellows, one in the first half when Ramirez or Lallana (I can't remember for certain) was clean away and was blatantly tripped from behind and no booking.

 

I think Clattenderg booked Clyne on a "straw that broke the camel's back" basis. When he was speaking to him (just before show the yellow card) he pointed over to where Clyne had made an earlier borderline yellow card tackle. I'm fairly sure he wouldn't have shown Clyne a yellow card if that had been his first perceived misdemeanor

[pingwing]

he turned up out of shape as he had no pre season what so ever...remember, it took us 10 games to register a win in good old league 1 without a pre season

 

Well yeah so he's clearly not an option at the moment, playing someone that isn't ready or fit is more of a disaster than someone who is still learning and has to learn extra quickly.

[trousers]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20539745

 

"[h=1]Norwich City boss laments Southampton 'handball' goal"[/h]

FFS Hughton, give it a rest....it bounced off the upper part of his arm....in no way did Lambert use his arm purposely to control the ball

[Appy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20539745

 

"[h=1]Norwich City boss laments Southampton 'handball' goal"[/h]

FFS Hughton, give it a rest....it bounced off the upper part of his arm....in no way did Lambert use his arm purposely to control the ball

 

I understand he is doing well now, but I really think his time at Newcastle was overrated.

[Saint Without a Halo]

 

Diappointed, not only in the result but again our sh1t TV service providers which meant I had to dig out my old Saintsplayer account info. Even worse was listening to that go in knowing I had to get up 4 hours later to go into battle with the FCO's consular service.

 

 

 

Phil it was live on Abu Dhabi Channel 10 through the Du cable package of AD sports!

[Whitey Grandad]

Thanks for unearthing that, WG.

 

So in your opinion, which of those applied in Clyne's tackle? Was he careless? Reckless? Used excessive force?

 

Neither seemed to apply as far as I could see and if it happened within the box, then would Clattenburg have awarded a penalty?

 

No, as I say, that rule opens up either discouraging defenders to tackle in case they give away free kicks or penalties, or it encourages defenders to dive to seek a free kick or penalty. Looking at our recent games, there have been numerous occasions where our players have been tripped, charged, barged, pushed, or tackled so that the player was bundled over in much the same way. And I don't recall much in the way of sympathy from the referees for our players.

 

When we were in the third division we had some very poor refereeing and that was perhaps to be expected. But the standard of referees and linesmen in the top division often seems to be just as poor somehow.

This business about tackling with excessive force has crept in over the last few years, it didn't exist in my days as a player or a referee. From where I sit in the central Kingsland it appeared that Clyne had slid past the other player's feet and not through the ball and then his feet but Clattenburg had a view from a completely different angle. A fellow regular who sits behind me asked me if I thought it was a foul and I said that I couldn't see whether Clyne had caught the man before the ball. Having seen the replay I would say that it was the strength of the tackle and the fact that the studs were showing and that Clyne's leg was locked in a straight position that counted against him. It was an inexperienced tackle that may have been unnecessary and he will learn from it, but what if the player had had a clear shot and scored from that? I think there is a definite difference in tolerance threshold between inside and outside the box. Nothing disguises the fact though that the kick should have been saved.

 

Usually careless is just a foul, reckless is a yellow card, reckless with excessive force is a red card.

 

Edit: I must add that Shaw was brilliant.

Edited 29 November, 2012 by Whitey Grandad

[Bearsy]

Edit: I must add that Shaw was brilliant.

 

I thought that too. I was wondering bout the tackle he done just before he went off tho, i was suprised it weren't a penalty.

[Barry Sanchez]

Piercey, it was a defo penalty mate.

[Bearsy]

Word. Clattenburg bottle job I thought.

 

Has anyone commented bout how impressive their big Tittes (sp?) was. I was very impressed with their big Titties.

Edited 29 November, 2012 by Bearsy

[up and away]

Interesting game in the sense that it was very different from our other games. Usually we are good on the ball and to some extent able to retain possession. However, as soon as the opposition starts pressuring our defense folds. Yesterday we never really got on top of the game, but we didn't crumble either. Norwich had spells in both halves where they laid siege to our goal but we didn't collapse like we usually do.

 

So the negatives were: their goal, that we looked a bit tired, and that we couldn't dominate the game. The positives were: Shaw, that for once we battled our way to a point from a slightly below par performance, and that we kept an unchanged side again which can only lead to some stability.

 

For a neutral the game would probably have been a bit of a bore, but for me it was an entertaining game in the sense that it could have swung both ways. A draw seemed a fair result. After all, Rickie's goal could have been disallowed and I still think a penalty could have been given against Shaw just before he was taken off...

 

I think this type of result is going to happen when we meet a side set up for the counter attack with a basis of defence at the back. This is what happens when you do not have the pace or skill to get through a team enough to force openings. I was particularly happy to see we never threw away the midfield to get a a more attacking option on the field and accepted what would be, would be.

[david in sweden]

really looked like the " Lord Mayor's Show " after that thriller on Sunday.

 

Gazzaniga's blooper was a schoolboy error, and it's not the first time. His suicide pass out to Yoshida in the Swansea game gave Dyer a gift. Those two mistakes cost us FOUR POINTS !

Despite NAs protests, the team did look tired in the second half and I'm afraid I haven't changed my opinion on Gazzaniga. (despite his " wonder save " v. Newcastle). Too young, too inexperienced.

I'm sure he will " come good " but we need a more experienced keeper there for a few months - even if it means buying another in January.

[Charlie Wayman]

A very tired performance that does not auger well for Saturday, if the lads cannot recover from Sunday to Wednesday - 3 days - then no chance they'll have enough energy with only 2 days recovery. The omens are not good and although I'd like to think we can give the scousers a good game somehow it seems improbable. Regrettably a 3-0 defeat looks most likely

[Chez]

I understand he is doing well now, but I really think his time at Newcastle was overrated.

 

he did an unbelievable job at Brum last season.

[Turkish]

he did an unbelievable job at Brum last season.

 

How wierd. Newcastle won the championship by 11 points, got over 100 points and were promoted with 5 games to spare. Then was sacked with them in 11th place in the premier league the following season. Yeah, massively overrated.

[Appy]

How wierd. Newcastle won the championship by 11 points, got over 100 points and were promoted with 5 games to spare. Then was sacked with them in 11th place in the premier league the following season. Yeah, massively overrated.

 

With the squad he had, if he hadn't won the league, he would of been a joke.

[Dr. Kucho]

Stick with the same team. Gazza might make mistakes at times, but he makes some great saves and its clear he has talent. The defence has impressed me with Shaw's defending and the Fonte/Yoshida and Clyne/Puncheon partnerships.

 

Think we could get something out of this game, a draw would be very nice, but we need to stop Suarez (CHEAT) and Gerrard (less of a CHEAT but still a CHEAT)

[Saint86]

A very tired performance that does not auger well for Saturday, if the lads cannot recover from Sunday to Wednesday - 3 days - then no chance they'll have enough energy with only 2 days recovery. The omens are not good and although I'd like to think we can give the scousers a good game somehow it seems improbable. Regrettably a 3-0 defeat looks most likely

 

********, i agree about our legs being gone. now dreading saturday

[Window Cleaner]

********, i agree about our legs being gone. now dreading saturday

 

 

Liverpool played on Wednesday as well, can't see what difference it makes.

[Graffito]

********, i agree about our legs being gone. now dreading saturday

 

Liverpool will have played 3 games in 6 days too and their squad is not so deep these days.

[GAS]

Liverpool will have played 3 games in 6 days too and their squad is not so deep these days.

Exactly, they rely on Gerard and Suarez. The rest of the squad is not all that (Sterling a threat admittedly but no product). Bring it on. I'm expecting a draw at the least.