Pace in the side

[Turkish]

For ages on here we've be told we need pace, that pace is vitally important. We've also had very popular players in the past, namely Antionio and De Ridder, who were quick, but in reality had little else. After watching a quite superb attacking display yesterday from 4 players who whilst not lacking pace are hardly what you'd describe as quick where do people stand on this now? Is pace still vitally important or having watched and admired the touch, movement, guile and ability of Ramirez, Lambert, Lallana and Puncheon is it a FACT that ability and end product is far more important that just having pace?

[Golden Balls]

I'd rather have someone with ability and no pace than somebody with pace and no ability. Ideally you want pace & ability.

[Saint Garrett]

Were Antonio and De Ridder that popular ?

 

Think they both did a job for us off the bench occasionally but they're both pretty poor. Antonio played for us for a small amount of time in League 1, scoring in a cup final, and De Ridder came off the bench a few times last season and had a good impact as they were complete alternatives to what we had at the time.

 

They're both pretty awful footballers though and wouldn't and shouldn't get close to this side.

[Turkish]

Antonio was very popular, many saying we should sign him up and was far better than Puncheon. De Ridder was also very poopular and I remember lots of calls for him to start and Nige was wrong not to pick him, as well as the constant chanting of his name. IN reality, all either had was pace and neither better than Puncheon.

[tajjuk]

For ages on here we've be told we need pace, that pace is vitally important. We've also had very popular players in the past, namely Antionio and De Ridder, who were quick, but in reality had little else. After watching a quite superb attacking display yesterday from 4 players who whilst not lacking pace are hardly what you'd describe as quick where do people stand on this now? Is pace still vitally important or having watched and admired the touch, movement, guile and ability of Ramirez, Lambert, Lallana and Puncheon is it a FACT that ability and end product is far more important that just having pace?

 

Agree although pace is always nice to have maybe people get too hung up on it. It's probably this reason that Lallana won't get a look in the England team depsite him being able to control and pass the ball in tight spaces unlike many other English players.

 

We do have pace in the team though, Shaw and Clyne are quick, Yoshida isn't bad for a centre back and Morgan is surprisingly quick as well. I'd also argue that Gaston with the ball at his feet (and under control) is as quick as you will get in the league, his driving runs yesterday were causing all sorts of problems.

[notnowcato]

Very good point. The pace of the movement and passing was really good to see yesterday.

 

Newcastle were blighted with injuries so I'm not going to get too excited but a win against an in form Norwich will start to give me real hope for the future.

[The Kraken]

Puncheon seems to have really gone up a level and is turning out some decent, consistent performances. As the build up to the first goal showed he's starting to get more success at getting beyond the last man rather than cutting inside onto his left all the time. I'd still like one more player to provide backup/competion to Puncheon and Lallana, it doesn't look like Mayuka is going to step up to the plate (although to be fair he's not really being given a chance yet).

 

Ramirez puts in a decent shift, and the interplay between all four "forwards" with them all able to switch positions will be a great asset.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Pace is important in the modern game.

 

We've been ok without it the past 3 games because we have dominated the ball. I worry that the better sides will keep the ball and be able to pen us in as their back 4 can squeeze up and not get worried about being caught on the break. As well as we played Sunday there were a couple of occasions where our breaks could have been quicker, and against better sides they'll need to be. Pace is also important defensively and we're going to get exposed with lallana and Punch's lack of it defensively. Ditching Fox for Shaw has addressed the back 4's pace, but our midfield is still a bit one paced.

 

Long term we will need to get some more pace in the side. Jay Rod is obviously being earmarked for the SRL role and hopefuly Mayuka will kick on once he's settled in. We dont need headless chickens like De Ridder or going back a few years Chicken George, but we will need a bit more eventually.

[Golac's Cunning Stunts]

Pace is not important if you have technical ability. Pace with technical ability is great, pace without technical ability = Theo. England always seem to have pacy wingers with no end product. Just look at the Spanish team. Iniesta, Xavi et al. No pace, but don't need it because they are the real deal technically.

[norwaysaint]

I'd agree with this, pace is better than no pace, but ability is better than pace.

 

I'd disagree that Antonio and De Ridder were ever that popular. There were a few people who wanted to see more of de ridder when we needed a decent player on the right, but no significant number. Waigo was more popular than Antonio and there wasn't too much complaining when we didn't sign either. because somebody starts a thread and those who agree post on it, doesn't mean it's a popular view. Just like stadium expansion, only a handful of people called for it to happen any time soon, but because of the squabbling and thread starting, you could be fooled into thinking it was a common view.

[The Kraken]

Pace is important in the modern game.

 

We've been ok without it the past 3 games because we have dominated the ball. I worry that the better sides will keep the ball and be able to pen us in as their back 4 can squeeze up and not get worried about being caught on the break. As well as we played Sunday there were a couple of occasions where our breaks could have been quicker, and against better sides they'll need to be. Pace is also important defensively and we're going to get exposed with lallana and Punch's lack of it defensively. Ditching Fox for Shaw has addressed the back 4's pace, but our midfield is still a bit one paced.

 

Long term we will need to get some more pace in the side. Jay Rod is obviously being earmarked for the SRL role and hopefuly Mayuka will kick on once he's settled in. We dont need headless chickens like De Ridder or going back a few years Chicken George, but we will need a bit more eventually.

 

Where are you getting this from?

 

Against QPR we had 47% of posession.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20278600

 

Against Newcastle we had 50% of posession.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20383440

 

The game where we dominated posession (against Swansea, 60%), we drew.

[Frank's cousin]

Two issues with 'pace' - the obvious one of players having it to shift up and down the park - and the IMHO more important one which is 'attacking at pace' and in numbers which we saw yesterday, with accurate passing - the ball moving quicker forward alot quicker as we flooded foward. May sound obvious, but ball moves alot quicker, and yesterday we showed that frequently, without ****ing around with it -not do be confused with the direct approach, but passing forward and through defenders at pace... sound obvious, but we have struggled to do this consistently throughout a match thsi season especially against better defensive sides - it worked well in batches against teh likes of City and Man U, because they also play a more attacking game. Against the 'lesser' sides who play with a more organised mid field and back four which hold their shape, we dillied around to much 'waiting' for an opening, rather than the intensity we showed yesterday and at QPR.

 

Last seaosn when we played like that few could live with us, this season we will alos need to learn to be patient and how to vary our style when up against the more stoic/pragmatic defences. Attacking at pace and in numbers when the opportunity is right, rather than all the time and exposing the back 4 is something we need to show we can do.

[dubai_phil]

Back when we were getting relegated we got torn to shreds by Man Ure in an FA Cup game.

 

I made the point then and I stick with it today. It is NOT about simply PACE.

 

Let's face it Johnno Quick has pace as did George Lawrence.

 

It is about SPEED of THOUGHT as well as pace - it is about how fast the BALL is MOVED around. When the ball is pinging around accurately (AND being controlled) you can beat anyone

 

Certainly before QPR my major issue with Puncheon was that as soon as he got into the oppo half he seemed to freeze and take forever to release the ball or see a pass. Maybe because we no longer sit so deep he has easier passiing options up there now BUT Pace alone is not enough.

 

Oh and don't take my word for it, Read "I am The Secret Footballer" - get someone to buy it for you for Xmas. has a whole chapter on this

[Colinjb]

Pace is just like Peter Crouch's height. It can be a very blunt weapon but when used in the right way it can be startlingly effective.

 

Many of the best sides in history have had pacey but also skillful players who could exploit weaknesses in the opposition and for many players it is key (take Michael Owen now he has lost it for example....)

 

It cannot however become the be all and end all. It would be nice though, and thankfully on the basis of our last few games our movement and intelligence while in possession and going forward is enough to make up for our relative lack of this in our front men.

[Turkish]

Back when we were getting relegated we got torn to shreds by Man Ure in an FA Cup game.

 

I made the point then and I stick with it today. It is NOT about simply PACE.

 

Let's face it Johnno Quick has pace as did George Lawrence.

 

It is about SPEED of THOUGHT as well as pace - it is about how fast the BALL is MOVED around. When the ball is pinging around accurately (AND being controlled) you can beat anyone

 

Certainly before QPR my major issue with Puncheon was that as soon as he got into the oppo half he seemed to freeze and take forever to release the ball or see a pass. Maybe because we no longer sit so deep he has easier passiing options up there now BUT Pace alone is not enough.

 

Oh and don't take my word for it, Read "I am The Secret Footballer" - get someone to buy it for you for Xmas. has a whole chapter on this

 

This is spot on. Lambert and Lallana have this in bundles and have the ability to pull it off. It's arguable that Ramirez is a level higher than that and Puncheon seems to be benefiting from playing with talented players. The old fashioned English style of two quick wingers running at the fall backs and the ball being played into the big man with a small quick bloke to pick up his flicks is so dated now, it's all about movement and ability, the way we've created openings time after time with good control and touch or flicks and the front 4 being on the same wavelength. It's all very well being able to run fast but if you are on a different level to your team mates on an intelligence level and running up dead ends all the timethen it's pointless.

[ant]

Our build-up play belies our perceived lack of pace - many teams seem to forget that it's often quicker to zip the ball about and make it do the hard work. If you watch how we play on the break it's all very measured; we don't tend to score by dashing forward with the ball, but we're learning how to be clever in possession and sustain pressure upon the opponent's goal that way.

 

We also defended from the front superbly yesterday. Punch/Ramirez/Lallana didn't give the Newcastle back four a moment's peace and picked their pockets numerous times. It's also incredible how much space Gaston and Adam are able to create themselves with a simple shift of the body. Sharpness like that will cause our opponents more problems than raw pace.

 

Of course if you can get a player with a more complete set of attributes i.e. speed on the ball AND a decent end product then they're an incredible asset, but there's a reason those players sell for the big bucks.

[Saint Without a Halo]

I'd rather have someone with ability and no pace than somebody with pace and no ability. Ideally you want pace & ability.

 

 

Agreed For (1) read Le Tiss for (2) read Terry Curran difficult question which we would rather have?

Edited 26 November, 2012 by Saint Without a Halo

[norwaysaint]

This is spot on. Lambert and Lallana have this in bundles and have the ability to pull it off. It's arguable that Ramirez is a level higher than that and Puncheon seems to be benefiting from playing with talented players. The old fashioned English style of two quick wingers running at the fall backs and the ball being played into the big man with a small quick bloke to pick up his flicks is so dated now, it's all about movement and ability, the way we've created openings time after time with good control and touch or flicks and the front 4 being on the same wavelength. It's all very well being able to run fast but if you are on a different level to your team mates on an intelligence level and running up dead ends all the timethen it's pointless.

 

This is absolutely the case and I posted about it on the match thread.

 

When he got the ball near the goal, he was commonly in situations where 99% of players would make a reaction shot, that would generally miss ie ball to his feet, while moving at speed and being challenged. yet he's one of those players for whom time seems to work differently than for everyone else. Somehow, he's able to see the better pass, control the ball and deliver it it beautifully in exactly the same time as others can only manage that reaction shot. Having a brain that works and solves problems so quickly is undoubtedly a form of genius. The reason we missed a few goals was as a result of it. Puncheon would receive a pass in front of goal from ramirez that he would never have expected to land at his feet and he produced the expected and fluffed reaction shot. That sounds like a criticism of Puncheon, but it's not meant to be, Puncheon did everything we could expect of him, but we can't expect him to think as quickly as Ramirez.

[tajjuk]

English style of two quick wingers running at the fall backs and the ball being played into the big man with a small quick bloke to pick up his flicks is so dated now

 

 

To be fair spurs play this way, maybe minus the big man (although they lined up like this against Arsenal with Adebayor up top with Defoe). They play two very wide direct tradtional wingers in Bale and Lennon who spend most of the game running at the full backs, however they also drift inside and swap positions. Stoke also play this way and you could argue Man Utd do as well with Valencia and Young. Good Wingers with pace will always have a role to play, but like full backs are more complete players now as are wingers, they have to be able to play inside, pass, tackle, track back, finish. Previously they would just knock and run for the byline and get crosses in that was probably all they needed to do.

 

It would be good for us to have one as a plan B seeing as both Puncheon and Lallana play as inside forwards, they come in form the touch line and look to link up play rather than run in behind. Some days this won't work and having someone with pace he stays wide and get's in behind is a good option, especially with Lambert up front. I would imagine this is why we are still looking at Phillips.

[Verbal Kint]

This is spot on. Lambert and Lallana have this in bundles and have the ability to pull it off. It's arguable that Ramirez is a level higher than that and Puncheon seems to be benefiting from playing with talented players. The old fashioned English style of two quick wingers running at the fall backs and the ball being played into the big man with a small quick bloke to pick up his flicks is so dated now, it's all about movement and ability, the way we've created openings time after time with good control and touch or flicks and the front 4 being on the same wavelength. It's all very well being able to run fast but if you are on a different level to your team mates on an intelligence level and running up dead ends all the timethen it's pointless.

 

Whilst i agree with that there is a concern when we come up against the better sides and don't see as much of the ball you need to be play on the counter attack. West Brom are showing this season how hard it is to play against a team that can hit you on the break so quickly and what a great weapon it is to have in your locker

 

But give me the ability of Gaston, Lallana and Lambert over pace any day. A joy to watch when playing well

[for_heaven's_Saint]

It probably depends who you're playing against tbf. There may be times when teams play a high line and we struggle to get through that someone like Mayuka could come on and make the difference. At the moment though we don't need it.

 

I do feel that we're benefitting from having slightly quicker fullbacks and Yoshida.

[Turkish]

To be fair spurs play this way, maybe minus the big man (although they lined up like this against Arsenal with Adebayor up top with Defoe). They play two very wide direct tradtional wingers in Bale and Lennon who spend most of the game running at the full backs, however they also drift inside and swap positions. Stoke also play this way and you could argue Man Utd do as well with Valencia and Young. Good Wingers with pace will always have a role to play, but like full backs are more complete players now as are wingers, they have to be able to play inside, pass, tackle, track back, finish. Previously they would just knock and run for the byline and get crosses in that was probably all they needed to do.

 

It would be good for us to have one as a plan B seeing as both Puncheon and Lallana play as inside forwards, they come in form the touch line and look to link up play rather than run in behind. Some days this won't work and having someone with pace he stays wide and get's in behind is a good option, especially with Lambert up front. I would imagine this is why we are still looking at Phillips.

 

We've got Mayuka on the bench as well for this. He did very well in this role against Villa and Spurs.

[CHAPEL END CHARLIE]

Silly thread.

 

Of course pace is important, and the role Clyne's ample supply of it had in our first goal yesterday should be clear enough for anyone who was paying attention.

[Lord Duckhunter]

Where are you getting this from?

 

Against QPR we had 47% of posession.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20278600

 

Against Newcastle we had 50% of posession.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20383440

 

The game where we dominated posession (against Swansea, 60%), we drew.

 

% possession is ********, a side knocking the ball from keeper to full back to centre half to keeper will rack up the posession %. Doesn't make a blind bit of difference to the game, particulary when they're 2 down. In both games we dominated the ball in the areas that matter. They were both comfortable performances where we could knock the ball around at will. My concern is when we are penned into our own half for vast amounts of the game. Not being able to catch a side on the break will mean that the pressure will just grow and grow. If you look at someone like John Terry, take away the opposition's ability to catch them on the break and he'll be able to play with his cigar out.

[Saint Garrett]

Gaston just glides across the surface he's quick but can still control the ball.

 

Our players have 'clever' pace rather than just 'raw' pace. It's little darting 2 yard movements and drops of the shoulder which create the space, along with how quickly we're moving the ball. You very rarely see one of our players just sprinting at full pelt over 20 yards. Change of pace is a lot more valuable than raw pace IMO.

[LostBoys]

I thought Gaston Ramirez was sublime yesterday - he does not appear fast but he can drift past players and them finds himself yards in front of them. I hope we can keep him but if he carries on like this I can see a big bid coming in for him.

[LostBoys]

I thought Gaston Ramirez was sublime yesterday - he does not appear fast but he can drift past players and them finds himself yards in front of them. I hope we can keep him but if he carries on like this I can see a big bid coming in for him.

 

And while this is not the correct topic I am also worried about our two pacy fullbacks being lured elsewhere.

[Turkish]

I thought Gaston Ramirez was sublime yesterday - he does not appear fast but he can drift past players and them finds himself yards in front of them. I hope we can keep him but if he carries on like this I can see a big bid coming in for him.

 

It's his work rate and strength that impress me as well. When Puncheon hit the post he won the ball by battling for it, he rarely gets knocked off the ball and he seemed geniunely delighted to score, seems to be enjoying it here. However, we will get a very big bid for him sooner or later from a top European club so lets enjoy him while we can.

[The Kraken]

It's his work rate and strength that impress me as well. When Puncheon hit the post he won the ball by battling for it, he rarely gets knocked off the ball and he seemed geniunely delighted to score, seems to be enjoying it here. However, we will get a very big bid for him sooner or later from a top European club so lets enjoy him while we can.

 

We'll be one of those pretty soon, so I wouldn't worry too much about that.

[Faz]

It is much more important to play with pace, than to have "pace2 per se.

 

Football in becoming a much ore technical sport. Although not a direct comparison, when you look at Rugby union, it is much ore difficult to score when teams are set up defensively, and the majority of scores come from when possession is turned over. At that point the attckijg n team is out of postion defensively, and an attack with pace can exploit it.

 

Once teams in this division have their two banks of 4 (or 4 & 5 ) it is difficult to score.

[dubai_phil]

We'll be one of those pretty soon, so I wouldn't worry too much about that.

 

Next season of course

[The9]

For ages on here we've be told we need pace, that pace is vitally important. We've also had very popular players in the past, namely Antionio and De Ridder, who were quick, but in reality had little else. After watching a quite superb attacking display yesterday from 4 players who whilst not lacking pace are hardly what you'd describe as quick where do people stand on this now? Is pace still vitally important or having watched and admired the touch, movement, guile and ability of Ramirez, Lambert, Lallana and Puncheon is it a FACT that ability and end product is far more important that just having pace?

 

Pace is still vitally important. There were a number of occasions yesterday when had we been quicker on foot, opposing players wouldn't have been able to affect play as much as they did and we'd have done even better.

 

It's the same argument as with Lambert - just because we're able to make some chances without certain characteristics being present, it doesn't mean we wouldn't be better off with them as well.

 

I don't think many people are saying "let's get someone with JUST pace", I'm certainly saying "let's get someone with the characteristics we already have PLUS pace".

[Saint Garrett]

Pace is still vitally important. There were a number of occasions yesterday when had we been quicker on foot, opposing players wouldn't have been able to affect play as much as they did and we'd have done even better.

 

It's the same argument as with Lambert - just because we're able to make some chances without certain characteristics being present, it doesn't mean we wouldn't be better off with them as well.

 

I don't think many people are saying "let's get someone with JUST pace", I'm certainly saying "let's get someone with the characteristics we already have PLUS pace".

 

If you're tecnically good and quick then you don't play for a side battling for relegation! Ronaldo/Messi etc.

[The9]

% possession is ********, a side knocking the ball from keeper to full back to centre half to keeper will rack up the posession %. Doesn't make a blind bit of difference to the game, particulary when they're 2 down. In both games we dominated the ball in the areas that matter. They were both comfortable performances where we could knock the ball around at will. My concern is when we are penned into our own half for vast amounts of the game. Not being able to catch a side on the break will mean that the pressure will just grow and grow. If you look at someone like John Terry, take away the opposition's ability to catch them on the break and he'll be able to play with his cigar out.

 

%age possession is a useful pointer when you're already winning as obviously having the ball stops the opposition scoring. Swansea last season played a lot of what Strachan called "propaganda football", and also completed more passes in their own half than any other team. Fat lot of use if 2-0 down and highly useful if 1-0 up.

 

We didn't play propaganda football in the Championship and with the exception of the first half against Spurs I don't think we've done it much in the Prem - initially that was because we couldn't keep the ball, but now we're playing worse teams our ability to impose ourselves and confidence is coming back.

[Turkish]

Pace is still vitally important. There were a number of occasions yesterday when had we been quicker on foot, opposing players wouldn't have been able to affect play as much as they did and we'd have done even better.

 

It's the same argument as with Lambert - just because we're able to make some chances without certain characteristics being present, it doesn't mean we wouldn't be better off with them as well.

 

I don't think many people are saying "let's get someone with JUST pace", I'm certainly saying "let's get someone with the characteristics we already have PLUS pace".

 

If you want someone with technical ability and Pace then you are looking at £30m plus. If De Ridder had Lallanas technical abilty and football brain he'd be a superstar.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

For ages on here we've be told we need pace, that pace is vitally important. We've also had very popular players in the past, namely Antionio and De Ridder, who were quick, but in reality had little else. After watching a quite superb attacking display yesterday from 4 players who whilst not lacking pace are hardly what you'd describe as quick where do people stand on this now? Is pace still vitally important or having watched and admired the touch, movement, guile and ability of Ramirez, Lambert, Lallana and Puncheon is it a FACT that ability and end product is far more important that just having pace?

 

Good point. We were excellent going forward yesterday but it is still nice to have a bit of pace on the bench

[dubai_phil]

Silly thread.

 

Of course pace is important, and the role Clyne's ample supply of it had in our first goal yesterday should be clear enough for anyone who was paying attention.

 

Yes CEC. However Clyne for all his young years APPEARS to have grey matter between his ears in a way that Chicken George, Terry Curran for example never had, and as said on this thread - it is the accusation that is most often made against our own ex Theo.

 

On the Gaston performance

 

On the very few Occassions that he actually appeared in a saints shirt, Charlie George was often said to be "thinking one move ahead of the rest of the team" - could see that with Gaston's early games to an extent. With him being out injured, it has not ONLY been him that needed to get up to speed and match fit, the rest of the players really needed more time on pitch with him to understand what he sees.

 

The use of intelligence to move the Ball at Pace, Create Space and then (when needed) use the pace of Clyne and others to good effect needs one other ingredient - confidence.

 

As others have said - a firing on all cylinders Barcelona are unstoppable, not because they are simply full of PACE. They simply move the ball fast so fast that by the time a pacy defender gets to the player with the ball it has gone again

Edited 26 November, 2012 by dubai_phil

[The9]

If you're tecnically good and quick then you don't play for a side battling for relegation! Ronaldo/Messi etc.

 

Exactly.

 

Although using two of the best players in the world as an illustration is at least as incongruous as using the likes of Waigo and Antonio (all pace and not much else) as an illustration of where pace can get you.

 

Let's suggest Aaron Lennon or Nathan Dyer, maybe even Matt Taylor as a happy compromise. Fast and pretty good technically without being incredible - they add something but without their pace would they be Prem players ? Is Michael Owen still of Prem quality now he's in his 30s ? On the flip side, Sheringham never had any and was able to carry on for years because his awareness and technique meant he found time to do things without needing to be the quickest to get there.

[CWD]

It's good to have pacy players, but they have to be complimented by players with power, strength and skill. A team of Theo Walcott's will get you nowhere. Having a couple of really fast players alongside players with great technical skill or strength means that you can vary how you attack. That's why the likes of Antonio, Oxlade-Chamberlain and now Clyne have been so effective for us over the years. They add something to our offensive play that is different to the robust strength of Lambert or the skill of Lallana. Give the opposition defence more one thing to defend against.

[Bearsy]

Ramirez is a bit quicker than I imagined once he gets into his stride, and couple of times he was first to the ball just by reacting quickest. The assist for Lallana is example.

 

Lambert is the only one who I'd say is slower than your average prem player. Even Lallana ain't as bad as people make out.

[The9]

Yes CEC. However Clyne for all his young years APPEARS to have grey matter between his ears in a way that Chicken George, Terry Curran for example never had, and as said on this thread - it is the accusation that is most often made against our own ex Theo.

 

On the Gaston performance

 

On the very few Occassions that he actually appeared in a saints shirt, Charlie George was often said to be "thinking one move ahead of the rest of the team".

 

The use of intelligence to move the Ball at Pace, Create Space and then (when needed) use the pace of Clyne and others to good effect needs one other ingredient - confidence.

 

As others have said - a firing on all cylinders Barcelona are unstoppable, not because they are simply full of PACE. They simply move the ball faster than the opposition can imagine it?

 

We all know the cliche about the ball moving faster than any player - but Messi's got the ability to run at people with pace and create opportunities, and that alone means teams can't set up just to defend against their passing. You can't afford to be over-reliant on any one thing at the top level or you get found out easily - though it's still harder to defend against pure pace than anything else because having pace means you can make up for deficiencies in other areas more easily.

Edited 26 November, 2012 by The9

[dubai_phil]

We all know the cliche about the ball moving faster than any player - but Messi's got the ability to ran at people with pace and create opportunities, and that alone means teams can't set up just to defend against their passing.

 

I think we will also start to see that from JRod (no not at a Messi level of course), and there were signs yesterday that Punch (who let's face it WE never saw as a solution WITH PACE) and of course Gaston can do it

 

But he (JRod) does have pace (not lightning but compared to SRL it is) but he also looks to have a footballing brain and will improve

 

It has also helped that Punch is not running into blind alleys any more

[The9]

I think we will also start to see that from JRod (no not at a Messi level of course), and there were signs yesterday that Punch (who let's face it WE never saw as a solution WITH PACE) and of course Gaston can do it

 

But he (JRod) does have pace (not lightning but compared to SRL it is) but he also looks to have a footballing brain and will improve

 

It has also helped that Punch is not running into blind alleys any more

 

Mayuka, however, is lightning fast and judging by his lack of gametime not quite up to speed with other aspects of his game in our system.

 

As ever, there's a balance between what works and how much you might gain or lose by changing it, and when we're playing poorer sides we use Lambert too much outside the area to leave him out. Williamson was outright assaulting him most of yesterday whenever a ball went direct to him in attack facing his own goal, but he was still able to drop deep and influence the game, and with our midfield aware they need to get ahead of Lambert to offer a threat, that seems to work against poorer sides. We get plenty of ball in attacking areas and can build and get players forward in support.

 

Against the top sides though, it hasn't worked and we need someone who can create things himself.

 

If this season has taught me anything, it's that the line between Prem and Championship is not as important as the line between Europe contenders and the rest. Lambert is a perfectly functional, if slow, striker against bottom half Prem sides and we're not yet able to play effectively without him.

[Thedelldays]

Lambert is functional against bottom half teams?

 

Despite dominating Ferdinand and vidic, scoring and setting one up against them

 

Score and created against kompany and co.

 

Just admit, you are wrong about lambert and he is very much premier league class

 

Even yesterday, he had a quiet game. Still hit the bar and sent a good ball that set up the first goal. He is always a complete handful for any CB too

[Saint86]

For ages on here we've be told we need pace, that pace is vitally important. We've also had very popular players in the past, namely Antionio and De Ridder, who were quick, but in reality had little else. After watching a quite superb attacking display yesterday from 4 players who whilst not lacking pace are hardly what you'd describe as quick where do people stand on this now? Is pace still vitally important or having watched and admired the touch, movement, guile and ability of Ramirez, Lambert, Lallana and Puncheon is it a FACT that ability and end product is far more important that just having pace?

 

I agree with your post, I think with an inform punch, AL and Gaston we have 3 fantastic skillful attackers, i also think that is faster than he looks - the number of times he charged through the middle whilst dribbling leaving NUFC players in his wake was a joy to behold! Also, his skill. even when he miss controlled it he kept the ball I think he is quality and his work rate is fantastic also!

 

However, I can not agree with your description of Lambert as "hardly lacking pace", (I assume you were referring to him in your 4 players.) Seriously, he was the slowest player on that pitch... what have you been smoking??

[pingwing]

Just checking but has everyone noticed that most teams in the prem seem to try and abuse the "pace and mistakes" game plan (QPR and Newcastle especially) where by trying to ping the ball about and running a lot creates cheap chances that someone strong and quick (Ba/Cisse for example) can smash home.

 

Our solution has been to completely kill any pace out of the game, so Gazza takes a long time on goal kicks, we do the simpsons "half back to CB, HOLDS IT" thing then frustrate the hell out of other teams till we score.

 

Pace does help and most of our players can put in a good sprint, but it is just a tiny factor in the overall game plan, which (when it works and we don't gift mistakes out) is great to watch.

[Dangermouth]

Paul Scholes was never nippy but he knew what to do with the ball before he received it. Even now he can do it a bit. The ball moves quicker than anyone can run so it's not about that. Speed of thought, anticipation, reading of the game, speed of pass are important. It can help when you have someone fast like Torres was at L'pool and can hit a long, early ball for them to put someone one on one vs the keeper or get behind a defence, but physical speed per se isn't that important.

[The9]

Lambert is functional against bottom half teams?

Despite dominating Ferdinand and vidic, scoring and setting one up against them

Score and created against kompany and co.

Just admit, you are wrong about lambert and he is very much premier league class

Even yesterday, he had a quiet game. Still hit the bar and sent a good ball that set up the first goal. He is always a complete handful for any CB too

 

We create chances when we get players forward to support Lambert's knock-downs and hold-up play. When we get players forward Lambert is there to pick up chances. When we don't get players forward Lambert does not do anything on his own. The goals v Man City were from us flooding forward, we also got players forward against Man Utd.

 

Like I've already said, we're fine when we get players forward in numbers to support Lambert, but he's no use isolated and doesn't create anything on his own. This was proved beyond doubt at Arsenal when he was completely anonymous. He wasn't much better at Everton or West Ham when he came on, struggled at home to Spurs for a half and didn't offer much at West Brom either. But against less competent defences we are able to get people around him. Both the goals against Man City came from us swarming forward in numbers which we didn't start doing until we were behind.

 

This is a problem against sides who pick us off when we over-commit (eg West Brom, West Ham, Everton, Man City late on) but not a problem against sides who are not as good (QPR, Swansea, Newcastle). Man Utd just proved that they either didn't know, or weren't bothered, about dealing with Lambert, because Arsenal completely negated him the week after just by sweeping up in front of him as well as competing the headers. We also failed to get anyone in support of him in that match.

 

It's not like I'm even basing it on goals because it's about his all-round contribution - he's only scored once since September 22nd if you want to get into that argument, and that was an open goal from a yard out agaisnt the bottom team.

 

Admitting he's more effective against the weaker sides is as far as I'm prepared to go with it. If we want to be challenging for top half or better we need to be able to do all the things Lambert offers us and more, and not hamstring our own attacks with players with limited mobility.

[Turkish]

Paul Scholes was never nippy but he knew what to do with the ball before he received it. Even now he can do it a bit. The ball moves quicker than anyone can run so it's not about that. Speed of thought, anticipation, reading of the game, speed of pass are important. It can help when you have someone fast like Torres was at L'pool and can hit a long, early ball for them to put someone one on one vs the keeper or get behind a defence, but physical speed per se isn't that important.

 

Jonno Quick might have something to say about that.

[Saint Garrett]

To be fair, what striker is going to have a huge influence on the game if they're isolated. Rickie wins a lot of the ball and lays the ball off better than I have seen anyone do I think. He's got a superb touch and vision is also fantastic.