shurlock Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 (edited) so why did we retrograde Cork in the shirt numbers and give Davis the 8 shirt then??? If Cork was always supposed to be the preferred CM alongside Morgan he wouldn't have been shoved back to 18 now would he? Someone made some signings and established a pecking order,that was done before Cork got injured . I put it to you that the "transfer committee" established a preferred starting 11 and NA took a lot of time to overcome that. Possibly because he's our only player with premiership pedigree (something people on here have moaned about) and captained a host of teams- and Cork had never played above NPC and went slightly off the boil in the second half of last season. So giving him the 8 shirt wasnt an odd decision in the first instance but had Cork been fit earlier we may have discovered earlier that Cork was currently a better fit (fwiw Davis has been better than people claim) and NA would have been able to choose from a full squad. But for factors outside NA's control and nothing to do with 'interference' , he didn't have luxury. He has done for the last two weeks. Edited 18 November, 2012 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eurosaint Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 I like MLT, always have. I don't think he should shut up either. The points he raised today have been rumoured for weeks. He may not like Cortese, but no doubting his love for the team. The key issue here; as it has been since the start of the Liebherr takeover, is a complete lack of official information. No surprise that in lieu of that, the club is externally perceived as having internal problems. That's the question that the host led with, btw. Tbf, I heard the discussion on the radio and thought that MLT was pretty restrained in his comments and not looking for a dig at Cortese ! He was calm, even- handed and only mentioned that some (others) had suggested there might be issues behind the scenes, he did not stir the sh#t at all, so some of the responses here areva bit over the top IMHO !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Yep, he really is damaging his legend status. No he's not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Such as who? "Flash" Gordon Watson! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Basically NA is playing the same team, style and formation he played against Villa (still our biggest win this season) but now he's got Cork back from injury and Shaw has come in. If he had had a full complement of players, this would have been done a lot earlier. In addition, eith Cork back in, Davis drops to the bench pushing Guly, another versatile midfielder out. Shaw has been available all season, in fact in the two games before WBA Reeves came on at left back. Why is he suddenly now a key first team player? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Tbf, I heard the discussion on the radio and thought that MLT was pretty restrained in his comments and not looking for a dig at Cortese ! He was calm, even- handed and only mentioned that some (others) had suggested there might be issues behind the scenes, he did not stir the sh#t at all, so some of the responses here areva bit over the top IMHO !! The responses on here are no different from the reaction to any conspiracy theory. No one wants to know that there may be (have been?) trouble at mill. Everything that MLT and Mac said was non-sensationalist and as you point out, quite restrained. The truth of the matter is that a lot of the stuff the club does, like not talk to the Echo, looks decidedly f**king smalltime and petty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Shaw has been available all season, in fact in the two games before WBA Reeves came on at left back. Why is he suddenly now a key first team player? That's not strictly true, Turks. Hasn't Shaw been in and out of fitness with a virus or summat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Nigel said this bout last week bout why Shaw only just made his first start: I think if he hadn't have been ill after the Stevenage game, he was knocking on the door then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Shaw has been available all season, in fact in the two games before WBA Reeves came on at left back. Why is he suddenly now a key first team player? You, above all people don't know? As with Gullyclause, Cortese demands that an academy player features Shaw has also been dealing with injuries and recovering match fitness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 That's not strictly true, Turks. Hasn't Shaw been in and out of fitness with a virus or summat? He played at Stevenage so was fit then, I know he did have an injury/virus but its not true to say he had only just become available and this is one of the reasons for our upturn in form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 You, above all people don't know? As with Gullyclause, Cortese demands that an academy player features Shaw has also been dealing with injuries and recovering match fitness. Isn't it worrying if we are relying on 17 year olds with no first team experience until now to be key players and turn around our from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 No he's not. And alpine you're cementing you're status as a complete numpty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Possibly because he's our only player with premiership pedigree (something people on here have moaned about) and captained a host of teams- and Cork had never played above NPC and went slightly off the boil in the second half of last season. So giving him the 8 shirt wasnt an odd decision in the first instance but had Cork been fit earlier we may have discovered earlier that Cork was currently a better fit (fwiw Davis has been better than people claim) and NA would have been able to choose from a full squad. But for factors outside NA's control and nothing to do with 'interference' , he didn't have luxury. He has done for the last two weeks. Cork has actually played in the PL before, with Burnley, 11 games in the 2010/11 season, scored for them in the PL as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 He played at Stevenage so was fit then, I know he did have an injury/virus but its not true to say he had only just become available and this is one of the reasons for our upturn in form. Here's an idea. Perhaps Nigel wanted to go with Fox at the start of the season. Not wanting to chuck the youngster in and also the fact that he wasn't fully fit played a part in this decision. When Nigel felt he was fit, this coincided with Fox having a couple of poor games. therefore NIGEL decided Fox should be dropped and Shaw replace him. I believe this happens up and down the country at every level of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 He played at Stevenage so was fit then, I know he did have an injury/virus but its not true to say he had only just become available and this is one of the reasons for our upturn in form. Honestly, I don't know what his fitness levels have been. I'm just going off what has been said on Twitter. To your other post though, about whether we should be playing a 17 year old left back. On yesterday's evidence, I don't see a problem but its madness to use one game as a barometer for long term form. I don't have a problem with playing youngsters; never have really. It's part of what we're about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Here's an idea. Perhaps Nigel wanted to go with Fox at the start of the season. Not wanting to chuck the youngster in and also the fact that he wasn't fully fit played a part in this decision. When Nigel felt he was fit, this coincided with Fox having a couple of poor games. therefore NIGEL decided Fox should be dropped and Shaw replace him. I believe this happens up and down the country at every level of the game. Perhaps. The point I am making in people are saying that we are playing so much better now Shaw is in the side. I'm merely pointing out he has been available all season and its a little worrying that we are lauding an inexperienced 17 year old as our saviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Honestly, I don't know what his fitness levels have been. I'm just going off what has been said on Twitter. To your other post though, about whether we should be playing a 17 year old left back. On yesterday's evidence, I don't see a problem but its madness to use one game as a barometer for long term form. I don't have a problem with playing youngsters; never have really. It's part of what we're about. If you're good enough you're old enough, no problem with that. But we shouldn't be relying on kids to save us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Perhaps. The point I am making in people are saying that we are playing so much better now Shaw is in the side. I'm merely pointing out he has been available all season and its a little worrying that we are lauding an inexperienced 17 year old as our saviour. But he hasn't been available all season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 But he hasn't been available all season For some of the season then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 (edited) Cork has actually played in the PL before, with Burnley, 11 games in the 2010/11 season, scored for them in the PL as well. Next youll be saying the same about Barnard. Davis has over 100 caps and Champions League experience and goals. Night and day. But like you I believe in Bayesian updating. And no doubt the club does. Edited 18 November, 2012 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Perhaps. The point I am making in people are saying that we are playing so much better now Shaw is in the side. I'm merely pointing out he has been available all season and its a little worrying that we are lauding an inexperienced 17 year old as our saviour. Quite clearly Nigel decided that things couldn't continue the way they were. He obviously decided it was time to drop Fox and bring Shaw in. At the same time Cork was available again, and we played poor Swansea and dire QPR sides. A combination of those 3 things, a bit of tightening at the back and hey presto we have 4 points. I dont really understand what your trying to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Not a bad reason to stick with Fox and not spend needlessly on a new LB if the coaching staff and Nige knew that Shaw was almost ready... guess what with them watching him play day in day out and also in traning they must get quite a good view of how he has come on in the last 12 months... or maybe the club/NC/Nige were just being colectively stupid and thought Fox was brilliant and nothing else was needed.... which you believe to be more likely says more about your opinions of Nige than it does of NC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 For some of the season then. Adkins lost patience with Fox after the Villa game and needed another option at LB. Around this time Shaw was hospitalised with a bad virus and was in and out of the U21's for a while after but has obviously now got better and sorted his fitness out. I'm sure Shaw (lolz) would have played sooner had he been available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Quite clearly Nigel decided that things couldn't continue the way they were. He obviously decided it was time to drop Fox and bring Shaw in. At the same time Cork was available again, and we played poor Swansea and dire QPR sides. A combination of those 3 things, a bit of tightening at the back and hey presto we have 4 points. I dont really understand what your trying to say. Absolutely. As a manager with nothing to lose he correctly told 'the committee' to wind their necks in and look at the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Adkins lost patience with Fox after the Villa game and needed another option at LB. Around this time Shaw was hospitalised with a bad virus and was in and out of the U21's for a while after but has obviously now got better and sorted his fitness out. I'm sure Shaw (lolz) would have played sooner had he been available. Do you have proof of this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Marco Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 And the positivity after a win is dead. Cheers Matty So if Adkins was not picking the team but now is then what is the problem? Or is it when we lose again then Reed or Cortese is picking who plays again? In the modern day world of 24/7 news that type of thing would come out easily. It would not stay in the realm of rumour for long at all. While Cortese is a bit of a knob head I think that is pretty clear I dont think he would interfere in the way some try to suggest. It does make me laugh that as soon as we do slightly better its now Adkins managing the team again. Even though it its the same system and players from the start of the season. The difference being injured players have come in i.e Cork and players who are doing not so well dropped i.e Fox and Ward Prowse... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Absolutely. As a manager with nothing to lose he correctly told 'the committee' to wind their necks in and look at the results. Perhaps "the committee" told Adkins to drop Fox and bring Shaw in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Quite clearly Nigel decided that things couldn't continue the way they were. He obviously decided it was time to drop Fox and bring Shaw in. At the same time Cork was available again, and we played poor Swansea and dire QPR sides. A combination of those 3 things, a bit of tightening at the back and hey presto we have 4 points. I dont really understand what your trying to say. Agree Swansea were poor against us. And QPR were even worse - before playing us, they had scored only 3 goals at home all season. If our defense wanted a confidence boost, couldn't think of two softer sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Perhaps "the committee" told Adkins to drop Fox and bring Shaw in. ah no, the committee no longer decides anything....you've not been paying attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Perhaps "the committee" told Adkins to drop Fox and bring Shaw in. No, he's been in the side since Adkins has taken control. Anyway, all I'm pointing out is that suddenly a 17 year old with about 5 first team appearances is being credited with being a key player. And a huge factor in our improvement. I don't agree with that and I would suggest it's rather worrying if this is the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Perhaps. The point I am making in people are saying that we are playing so much better now Shaw is in the side. I'm merely pointing out he has been available all season and its a little worrying that we are lauding an inexperienced 17 year old as our saviour. He was available at the start of the season, and then was not for a few weeks due to his illness. It was quite reasonable for Adkins to start with Fox at the beginning of the season, realised quite quickly that he is gash at defending and started looking for an alternative, just a shame it coincided with Shaw's illness. Shaw has shown already that he is a far better defender (Fox nearly cost us yesterday just after he came on) and that he is beginning to be a threat going forwards as well. One good thing is having a left sided defender in position when we have a corner on the right, letting Fox take those was just plain stupid, out of position and slow to get back. Shaw is lightning quick as he has demonstrated. Just need to get him fully fit so that we don't have to risk bringing Fox on for the last 10-15 minutes of games in future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 ah no, the committee no longer decides anything....you've not been paying attention. Perhaps Turkish could post on here after the side is announced each game whether it's a committee side or an Adkins side. I would hate the thought of someone deciding after the game ie Win-Adkins, lose- committee, draw-mixture of both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manji Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 MLT obviously still embarrased by his support of Pinnacle which nearly destroyed the club. The rest of them Osman , McMoneybags etc. still bitter about losing the money they were being paid for doing nothing when the club was in financial crisis. They all have a bitter agenda. How can anyone believe a word those has beens say. They used to be my heros (not Osman hes always been a hanger on with little talent) but now I hate them they would happily see the club go down the plan to prove themselves right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 He was available at the start of the season, and then was not for a few weeks due to his illness. It was quite reasonable for Adkins to start with Fox at the beginning of the season, realised quite quickly that he is gash at defending and started looking for an alternative, just a shame it coincided with Shaw's illness. Shaw has shown already that he is a far better defender (Fox nearly cost us yesterday just after he came on) and that he is beginning to be a threat going forwards as well. One good thing is having a left sided defender in position when we have a corner on the right, letting Fox take those was just plain stupid, out of position and slow to get back. Shaw is lightning quick as he has demonstrated. Just need to get him fully fit so that we don't have to risk bringing Fox on for the last 10-15 minutes of games in future. Huge risk gambling on a 17 year old with hardly any first team experience though isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Manji still accusing others of having an agenda. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Duckhunter Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 No, he's been in the side since Adkins has taken control. So it was just a coincidence that this coincided with his return to full fitness. I get it now.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Perhaps Turkish could post on here after the side is announced each game whether it's a committee side or an Adkins side. I would hate the thought of someone deciding after the game ie Win-Adkins, lose- committee, draw-mixture of both. Adkins is now in charge of the team HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 (edited) No, he's been in the side since Adkins has taken control. Anyway, all I'm pointing out is that suddenly a 17 year old with about 5 first team appearances is being credited with being a key player. And a huge factor in our improvement. I don't agree with that and I would suggest it's rather worrying if this is the case. Nobody is saying that - they're saying its a combo of things -the return of Ramirez and Cork from injury, Shaw and weakish opposition that's had problems scoring goals, letting our defense off the hook. And its only 2 games - hopefully we've turned a corner but its still too early to say. Edited 18 November, 2012 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 MLT obviously still embarrased by his support of Pinnacle which nearly destroyed the club. The rest of them Osman , McMoneybags etc. still bitter about losing the money they were being paid for doing nothing when the club was in financial crisis. They all have a bitter agenda. How can anyone believe a word those has beens say. They used to be my heros (not Osman hes always been a hanger on with little talent) but now I hate them they would happily see the club go down the plan to prove themselves right. How very odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 If you're good enough you're old enough, no problem with that. But we shouldn't be relying on kids to save us. I don't think we ever intended to. Buttner was a done deal, remember. He was the first choice before these nebulous "third party issues" got in the way. I think many of us have an alternate theory of what went on there. Reading between the lines; it looks like we thought we were sorted for Buttner and didn't put too much thought into any alternatives. Perhaps the club took the view that what we had was good enough, especially after the Yoshida signing. Like yourself, I don't necessarily share that view - but we are where we are. I think with what we've discovered about Cayman Islands bank loans, it's clear that the Liebherr's weren't prepared to chuck cash at the transfer budget. Some element of compromise was always going to exist. Are we relying on Shaw to save us? I don't think so. It's a team game and there is only so much that one person can contribute. Do I prefer Shaw ahead of Fox? Most definitely. It's what we're about, and although I wouldn't say no to a world class left back, I'd prefer that we developed one rather than pay top dollar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Huge risk gambling on a 17 year old with hardly any first team experience though isn't it? No, he's better than Fox despite his age. More of a risk starting the cardboard cut out Fox each game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Huge risk gambling on a 17 year old with hardly any first team experience though isn't it? not if Fox is the only other viable option, Maya having been eliminated from the position by trial and error. Perhaps Fox was a "committee signing" who knows. I am absoulutely certain (in my own way) that JRod was foisted on Adkins whether he liked it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 MLT obviously still embarrased by his support of Pinnacle which nearly destroyed the club. The rest of them Osman , McMoneybags etc. still bitter about losing the money they were being paid for doing nothing when the club was in financial crisis. They all have a bitter agenda. How can anyone believe a word those has beens say. They used to be my heros (not Osman hes always been a hanger on with little talent) but now I hate them they would happily see the club go down the plan to prove themselves right. Pahahahaha. You f*cking nutjob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 not if Fox is the only other viable option, Maya having been eliminated from the position by trial and error. Perhaps Fox was a "committee signing" who knows. I am absoulutely certain (in my own way) that JRod was foisted on Adkins whether he liked it or not. Listen to Adkins and you'll see that he rates him a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 No, he's better than Fox despite his age. More of a risk starting the cardboard cut out Fox each game. Luckily he has been. How many 17 year olds look way out of their depth though, regardless if their talent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Luckily he has been. How many 17 year olds look way out of their depth though, regardless if their talent? It's fairly rare in the prem to see a 17 year old playing but those who do are usually good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 It's fairly rare in the prem to see a 17 year old playing but those who do are usually good. Exactly my point. We shouldn't be relying on 17 year olds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 not if Fox is the only other viable option, Maya having been eliminated from the position by trial and error. Perhaps Fox was a "committee signing" who knows. I am absoulutely certain (in my own way) that JRod was foisted on Adkins whether he liked it or not. Jrod is a 100% NA signing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Jrod is a 100% NA signing. Can you prove this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Listen to Adkins and you'll see that he rates him a lot. Or that he has the oratorial skills to make it sound that way. I can never ever remember NA dissing a player and he's had some right jugs to deal with, like Dickson. Only time he ever sounded peeved with a player was with Punch. Don't forget Nigel made Jonnoquick sound good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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