SuperMikey Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 Seems like there's a few people who need a bløwjob in the Middle East. Egyptian President said this morning that Gaza "will not be left to stand alone" in this. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Charming Man Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 Israel have America as an ally. I doubt Egypt would be silly enough to intervene with a military response. Imagine there will just be plenty of chat back and forth whilst Israel hammers Gaza for the next couple of weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemmel Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 We have offices there and they all believe they are going to war. One of the most amazing places I have ever been. One one the strangest places I have ever been. No one will win and it will be a bloodbath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 I know it's not fashionable but I really feel for the Palestinians I know many see them as terroists but really in their postion I doubt I'd act any different. Israel always comes across as a bully to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Charming Man Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 I know it's not fashionable but I really feel for the Palestinians I know many see them as terroists but really in their postion I doubt I'd act any different. Israel always comes across as a bully to me. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter... Or as happened after WW2 - one man's Palestine is another man's Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 Again the news over here is misleading both BBC and ITV they say 30k of irsareli reservists have been called up but it 16k , the israeli parliment has permission to call upto 30k of reservists. Another reason I despise the BBC . they minipulate the facts all the time to give the worse case scenario, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 I know it's not fashionable but I really feel for the Palestinians I know many see them as terroists but really in their postion I doubt I'd act any different. Israel always comes across as a bully to me. Not me mate, I side fully with the Palestinians. The State of Israel has, and continues to, steal their land. What is happening of the West Bank is nothing sort of criminal but we in the West will do nothing as long as Israel is bankrolled by the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 Again the news over here is misleading both BBC and ITV they say 30k of irsareli reservists have been called up but it 16k , the israeli parliment has permission to call upto 30k of reservists. Another reason I despise the BBC . they minipulate the facts all the time to give the worse case scenario, How many tanks do they need to crush a couple of hundred houses ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamilton Saint Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 (edited) A two-state solution seems the only conceivable option. Israel must cease to occupy the West Bank area of Jordan and abandon a large portion of the illegal settlements there. The long history of terror perpetrated by both sides has completely poisoned the region. I feel sympathy AND disgust for both sides. Edited 16 November, 2012 by Hamilton Saint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
um pahars Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 I see no solution, just a continuation of what we have seen for decades. Whether it just rumbles along or whether it literally blows up in to something massive, God only knows!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 (edited) The Palestinians got screwed as a by-product of the desire to give the Jews a home. What happened in WW2 meant you had a rushed and imperfect state creation with insufficient protection for minorities, and an Israeli Government with many of the same views as the people they had just suffered under. Edited 16 November, 2012 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 I know it's not fashionable but I really feel for the Palestinians I know many see them as terroists but really in their postion I doubt I'd act any different. Israel always comes across as a bully to me. Au contraire, its very fashionable. The media are completely behind the Palestinians, despite the fact it is their cowardly rocket attacks from densely-populated civilian areas that has caused this. Without their actions, those little children would still be alive. I feel really bad about the loss to civilian life, but I am completely behind the Israelis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 The Palestinians got screwed as a by-product of the desire to give the Jews a state. What happened in WW2 meant you had a rushed and imperfect creation state creation with insufficient protection for minorities, and an Israeli Government with many of the same views as the people they had just suffered under. This comment is contemptible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloridaMarlin Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 I always try and keep out of this row as I have rellies out in Israel and as such, people automatically brand you. The whole issue with Israel and the Palestinians (especially Hamas) is that of recognition. While some Palestinians do recognise Israel's right to exist, certainly Hamas never has. While at least one of your neighbours feels you shouldn't exist, you are always going to feel vulnerable and threatened, if not paranoiac. Especially when they lob missiles into your back yard almost on a daily basis. And while the world has obviously had it brought to its attention the fact that Israel has attacked Gaza, what doesn't come out is the above. The Israelis who live near the borders have to contend with almost daily missile attacks. Because they have been relatively harmless, they're not news, but the rocket attacks into Israel have been going on now for at least a couple of weeks. The problem is that when the Israelis decide to retaliate, they tend not to do it like for like, but they take the kid gloves off. Most people would accept they have a right to respond in kind. Their problem is that they chuck the kitchen sink in when they respond, as they did last time in Gaza. I'm sure it's not a coincidence that Hamas feel more confident in having a go since the Egyptian general elections. The Muslim Brotherhood are now in power, and such are the machinations of middle eastern politics that this might have been engineered by Hamas and the Palestinians as a test of Egypt's new government. There's always an element of 'Be careful what you wish for' in the Middle East, and while we in the West heralded the Arab Spring as the dawning of democracy in former dictatorships like Egypt and Libya, those in Israel feared that the downfall of dictators would create a power vacuum that would inevitably be filled by extremists. The fact it happened relatively quickly in Egypt in Libya made the west realise that Syria could be next, which is why not too much is being done to topple Assad, other than make respectful noises about what a terrible man he is. Most Western governments now realise that if Syria falls to extremists, that's when the lid blows off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 This comment is contemptible. Really? What would you call the 1948 ethnic cleansing of 750,000 Palestinians then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 ... God only knows!!! Which one ? The Jewish incarnation, the Christian one ( be that Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox ), or the Islamic ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 Really? What would you call the 1948 ethnic cleansing of 750,000 Palestinians then? Blame, Jordan, Iraq, Egypt and Syria for invading the day after a Israel became independent, and the Arab League and Arab Higher Committe for Palestine rejecting the much more equitable plan put forward by the UN in 1947. As with all the history down there, there is a massive dose of self-inflictment. In contrast, dont recall reading that Jews across Europe got together in the 1930s and attacked Germany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 http://guardian.150m.com/palestine/cleansed-towns.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 Israel have America as an ally. I doubt Egypt would be silly enough to intervene with a military response. Imagine there will just be plenty of chat back and forth whilst Israel hammers Gaza for the next couple of weeks. They have been there before, it didnt end well did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 http://guardian.150m.com/palestine/cleansed-towns.htm Jews were being attacked in the area from the strike in December 1947. On the backdrop of the Holocaust and events like Kristalnacht, can you really say you are surprised by how they responded ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloridaMarlin Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 The Palestinians got screwed as a by-product of the desire to give the Jews a home. What happened in WW2 meant you had a rushed and imperfect state creation with insufficient protection for minorities, and an Israeli Government with many of the same views as the people they had just suffered under. The Balfour Declaration, whereby the British government set out the desirability for a Jewish national homeland in the middle east, was made in 1917, so the premise had been around for some time before WWII. Obviously the Shoah exacerbated the desire to set one up. A lot of the land on which the 1948-borders Israel was built was (legally) bought from Palestinian effendi landowners who were more than happy to sell to Jews, with little concern for what might happen to those of their own kind who were living on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 Jews were being attacked in the area from the strike in December 1947. On the backdrop of the Holocaust and events like Kristalnacht, can you really say you are surprised by how they responded ? So explain the bombing of the King David Hotel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 Jews were being attacked in the area from the strike in December 1947. On the backdrop of the Holocaust and events like Kristalnacht, can you really say you are surprised by how they responded ? That comment is contemptible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 The Palestinians got screwed as a by-product of the desire to give the Jews a home. What happened in WW2 meant you had a rushed and imperfect state creation with insufficient protection for minorities, and an Israeli Government with many of the same views as the people they had just suffered under. i agree the whole things been a tragedy for all concerned and the Palestinians were sold down the river after the war and now we have extremists in the middle east linked to the conflict, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 That comment is contemptible Why ? I am not justifying anything, just offering a possible explanation for the strength of their response. Israel has been surrounded by peoples and nations wanting to wip it from the face of the earth since its founding; in fact going back to Biblical times. And they have as much claim to the land as the Palestinians, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 Jews were being attacked in the area from the strike in December 1947. On the backdrop of the Holocaust and events like Kristalnacht, can you really say you are surprised by how they responded ? So you agree with me then. Because of the holocaust and a determination to not let it be possible again they destroyed the homes and forcibly evicted 750,000 Palestinians who had nothing to do with their suffering. Perhaps Britain should have kicked out the Catholics when France and Spain declared war on us? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 So you agree with me then. Because of the suffering they had suffered and a determination to not let it be possible again they destroyed the homes and forcibly evicted 750,000 Palestinians who had nothing to do with their suffering. Perhaps Britain should have kicked out the Catholics when France and Spain declared war on us? No, I dont. At the risk of sounding childish, in both cases the Jews "didnt start it", they were attacked in an attempt to eliminate them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatch Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 I'm with the Israelis on this. Seeing as they pay my wages'n'all. Plus I'm sure our chief accountant is part of Mossad, He always seems to 'take time off' whenever there is a crisis and the Israelis are up to something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 Why ? I am not justifying anything, just offering a possible explanation for the strength of their response. Israel has been surrounded by peoples and nations wanting to wip it from the face of the earth since its founding; in fact going back to Biblical times. And they have as much claim to the land as the Palestinians, imo. I was just getting the point across that basically, your agreeing with Tim. In general, I agree with you, it cannot be good habitating where they live in fear that basically every wants them gone. It doesnt always excuse certain periods of their history, and TBH after what happened and the general reason they ended up there in thefirst place they probably should know better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 I was just getting the point across that basically, your agreeing with Tim. In general, I agree with you, it cannot be good habitating where they live in fear that basically every wants them gone. It doesnt always excuse certain periods of their history, and TBH after what happened and the general reason they ended up there in thefirst place they probably should know better Well, their paranoia and over-reaction certainly doesnt help matters, but comparing them directly to the Nazis is appaling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 (edited) Well, their paranoia and over-reaction certainly doesnt help matters, but comparing them directly to the Nazis is appaling. But overlooking a similar (albeit a smaller scale) attrocity is perfectly acceptable ? Edited 16 November, 2012 by Smirking_Saint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 Y'all need to read the book A Peace To End All Peace about our creation of the modern middle east. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamilton Saint Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 Au contraire, its very fashionable. The media are completely behind the Palestinians, despite the fact it is their cowardly rocket attacks from densely-populated civilian areas that has caused this. Without their actions, those little children would still be alive. I feel really bad about the loss to civilian life, but I am completely behind the Israelis. Interesting parallelism of thought. It's this sort of all-or-nothing, black-and-white attitude that is part of the problem. There are extremists on both sides using religion and historical grievance as a justification to terrorise and abuse those on the other side. But, ultimately, it is primarily the Palestinians who have been dispossesed of land and property. And the religious fundamentalsim of the settlers, who believe that God gave the land to them, regardless of historical realities, is a major obstacle to peace between the two peoples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctoroncall Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 Weren't the Arabs happy to subjugate the palestians before the land was sold to the Israelis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperMikey Posted 16 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 16 November, 2012 Hamas firing rockets at Jerusalem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 I am Team Palestine. Absolute mess of a situation. I can understand the Jewish need for a homeland. Really didn't need to be there, though. It's easy to blame the Balfour accords and by implication, our ancestors, but Zionism had been a political movement for some time; Jews were returning to Palestine in the early 20th century. When it comes down to it, the question is whether the attempted genocide of the Jews during the second world war justifies them having Israel now, or their behaviour since. They've flouted one UN resolution after the other, knowing it can always count on a UN Permanent Security council veto. Crudely reduced to a pure numbers game, other groups or nations fared worse. The Russians lost 20 million people. The Chinese between 10 and 20 million. Indonesia suffered 3-4 million dead (less than the 6 million, admittedly), all civilians. They're not throwing their weight around on the international stage; not getting backed to the hilt by the US. And don't give me that boll0cks about Israel being surrounded by its enemies. Dudes, you f**king moved there, stole a country and have sh4t continuously on the descendants of the people who stayed put 2000 years ago. What the f**k did you expect? I'm not one of these people who would deny the holocaust, or indeed, any of the numbers. However, Zionism was a thing long before the rise of Hitler, and I think some cynically exploited the suffering of their own people to advance their agenda, leading to the sh!tstorm we have today. The US and UK are always going to be seen as hypocrites while we continue to support this rogue state. I think you can say "enough's enough, sort it the f**k out" without dishonouring the memories of those who died in World War 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 (edited) The problem isnt lack of land in the area - its a lack of viable productive land. Surely one option would be for Jordan or Egypt to provide a largely empty slice of desert to become contiguous with the Gaza strip and part of the West bank and for the international community to pump money in to create a viable state. Theres only about 4 million of them. £20bn pa spent on roads, water, schools, jobs and electricity infrastructure has got to be a better and cheaper long term solution than 70 years of war, confrontations, instability and terrorism. Edited 16 November, 2012 by buctootim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfc1976 Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 Not really much you can do with people so irrational that they genuinely believe they were given land 'directly from god'. Indeed, there seems little chance of either side embracing the notion of 'where religion ends civilization begins' so we continue with the cycle of Hamas sending rockets into Israel and Israel responding with even greater force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 The whole Arab spring thing could make this a whole lot worse than in previous years. Israel needs to accept that Palestine needs to be it's own functioning country. When Israel says it wants peace it means they want peace, Palestine's land and to constantly f*ck them over. The problem lies with the bizarre hold Israel seems to have over the USA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Lungs Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 The problem lies with the bizarre hold Israel seems to have over the USA. Important people in important positions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 The Israelis are a disgrace. The settlements in the west bank are appalling. The Israelis think they can steal the homes and land of others because you need a bit more space. They restrict the movement of Palestinians and over zealously police them on their own land. Then there's Golam. As for Gaza, it can't be overlooked that Israel assassinated a Hamas leader and took out others in the process. Hamas responded, which to an extent is to be expected. Thereafter the behaviour of Israel has been disproportionate. Take last night. Eleven missiles were fired from Gaza. One landed in the sea, the other fell to an uninhabited area. Israel hit with 130 air strikes killing many and causing mass carnage. They then breached the temporary ceasefire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 The Israelis think they can steal the homes and land of others because you need a bit more space. Lebensraum ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 Lebensraum ? It's 2012. Palestinians are not nazi Germany. No state has the right to displace people living in another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 I'm with the Israelis on this. Seeing as they pay my wages'n'all. Plus I'm sure our chief accountant is part of Mossad, He always seems to 'take time off' whenever there is a crisis and the Israelis are up to something. I'd get rid of the Roman avatar then seeing as they were resposible for for a million (according to Joesphus) dead jews in 69AD......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperMikey Posted 16 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 16 November, 2012 I agree with Pap on the issue of the Israeli land-grabs. Unfortunately there are so many fanatics on both sides here I think a "war" of some kind was always inevitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 No, I dont. At the risk of sounding childish, in both cases the Jews "didnt start it", they were attacked in an attempt to eliminate them. Interesting how do you feel about the Jewish attacks on the British in the 40s? Some might feel it's ironic that the Lehi were the orginates of the car bomb as a terroist weapon..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 The problem isnt lack of land in the area - its a lack of viable productive land. Surely one option would be for Jordan or Egypt to provide a largely empty slice of desert to become contiguous with the Gaza strip and part of the West bank and for the international community to pump money in to create a viable state. Theres only about 4 million of them. £20bn pa spent on roads, water, schools, jobs and electricity infrastructure has got to be a better and cheaper long term solution than 70 years of war, confrontations, instability and terrorism. This isn't really about the Palestinians wanting more though. The west bank and Gaza were enough. The Israeli's decided to occupy both and borrowed Golam for good measure. Why should Egypt give up land? Surely Israel should get out of the West bank and leave the Palestinians alone. Seems simple enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 (edited) It's 2012. Palestinians are not nazi Germany. No state has the right to displace people living in another. Does a state have the right to publicly declare that should one of it's neighbours be granted 'non-member' status at the UN it will take action to remove the leader of that neighbour and destabilise it's government ? ( "However, Mr Lieberman was quoted last week by Israeli Channel 10 TV as saying he would ensure that the Palestinian Authority "collapses" if its unilateral UN bid went ahead." Avigdor Lieberman is the Israei Foreign Minister http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20322405 ) As for the two-party state, how manageable does the West Bank look under the proposals on the table ? Edited 16 November, 2012 by badgerx16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 Does a state have the right to publicly declare that should one of it's neighbours be granted 'non-member' status at the UN it will take action to remove the head of that state and destabilise it's government ? What does that have to do with grabbing land in another state? My point was land grab, occupation and human rights breaches in 2012 You responded by referring to a nazi practice from the 1920's. Random. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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