Thedelldays Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 So you are now telling me in an emergency and Astute can go much faster than rumour and accusation has it, is that right ? Wish you'd posted that 30-40 posts ago. You posted about teething troubles and the amount of time since the Trafalgars were built as an argument about the other points raised by the article, and I can agree with them; but your argument about the speed has been to almost justify the accusation that Astutes cannot hit their designed-for speed because it aint needed it anyway. Which is bizarre, to say the least, if it is really caused by a major design flaw. Now you are saying it is being deliberately under-rated for public consumption. Maybe if you just discussed this sensibly in the first place without the smug patronising mentality which seems to be exhibited by all ex-service types, even those who cleaned the bogs, perhaps we could have avoided another argument. tell me about these emergencies that require 30+ knots. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 As always a desperate man reverts to petty insults rather then structuring a proper arguement. Not that you hadnt already, but you have lost this one Alps, walk away before you really embarass yourself Oh and 32-29 = 3 Guess my university education was more than just jumping high Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mack rill Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 So you are now telling me in an emergency and Astute can go much faster than rumour and accusation has it, is that right ? Maybe if you just discussed this sensibly in the first place without the smug patronising mentality which seems to be exhibited by all ex-service types, even those who cleaned the bogs, Hello sum-bod pull my chain? alps, I was a deck hand playing with seaman in the Andrew, I'm a dab hand at silent hunter iii wolf pack on the PC, so fire away! I'm your man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint in Paradise Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 tell me about these emergencies that require 30+ knots. cheers The boat is delayed for a while but is still heading for home port when the crew realise "last orders" will soon be called ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 18 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 18 November, 2012 As always a desperate man reverts to petty insults rather then structuring a proper arguement. Not that you hadnt already, but you have lost this one Alps, walk away before you really embarass yourself Oh and 32-29 = 3 Guess my university education was more than just jumping high Apart from the fact that Los Angeles, Akula and Yasen boats have reported speeds of 35Kts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 18 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 18 November, 2012 The best way to avoid an argument is to not go looking for one. I went looking for information, and was patronised by the ex-Navy clique on here. Never mind, I am sure another Iranian gun-boat armed with pea-shooters will be along for them to surrender to soon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 18 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 18 November, 2012 tell me about these emergencies that require 30+ knots. cheers reckon I've given 2 examples on here at least 3 times. If you dont want to address them, your look out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 (edited) Alpine you could start an argument with a leaf. How can you argue about submarines with someone who clearly CLEARLY knows about a million times more about them than you. He has spent most of his adult life on them for goodness sake. I know feck all about submarines but I would obviously consider TDD to be much more of an authority on them than you. This is like the time you said you knew more about games than those who actually attended. Edited 18 November, 2012 by hypochondriac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 So say that hypo but it was Bearsy that highlighted the risk randy whales bring, Delldays seems to have completey missed that and still doesn't get it. Delldays, if a randy whale is chasing, you NEED 30 knots or miles per hour or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 reckon I've given 2 examples on here at least 3 times. If you dont want to address them, your look out. But those examples are not real though You have made them up in your head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Apart from the fact that Los Angeles, Akula and Yasen boats have reported speeds of 35Kts. That wasnt your arguement before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 18 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Alpine you could start an argument with a leaf. How can you argue about submarines with someone who clearly CLEARLY knows about a million times more about them than you. He has spent most of his adult life on them for goodness sake. I know feck all about submarines but I would obviously consider TDD to be much more of an authority on them than you. This is like the time you said you knew more about games than those who actually attended. If he really knows as much as he claims (personally, I think he knows as much about subs as Mike Wilde knew about chairing a football club), why did he have to act all stupid and not just answer my questions sensibly ? I think hes a f**king cook who things he is command of the bridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latter day saint Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 I went looking for information, and was patronised by the ex-Navy clique on here. Never mind, I am sure another Iranian gun-boat armed with pea-shooters will be along for them to surrender to soon... thats rather pathetic isn't it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 18 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 18 November, 2012 But those examples are not real though You have made them up in your head So, during a crash dive and an emergency blow, the engines are not engaged at full power to accellerate the effect of the ballast change ? B*ll*cks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 18 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 18 November, 2012 thats rather pathetic isn't it As pathetic as getting all this hard-man sea-dog "you dont know what you are talking about" crap. If I dont, educate me. Answer a genuine question in a genuine manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 (edited) So, during a crash dive and an emergency blow, the engines are not engaged at full power to accellerate the effect of the ballast change ? B*ll*cks. Tell me how it works Are you aware how long it takes to bring the reactor to the full power state to reach top speed? Any emergency would be over twice before you get to top speed...emergency surfacing etc Keep pitching them up mate and I will continue to bat them away. Edited 18 November, 2012 by Thedelldays Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 As pathetic as getting all this hard-man sea-dog "you dont know what you are talking about" crap. If I dont, inform me. Answer a genuine question in a genuine manner. What response did you object to? Having read the thread I can't see what he did wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 If he really knows as much as he claims (personally, I think he knows as much about subs as Mike Wilde knew about chairing a football club), why did he have to act all stupid and not just answer my questions sensibly ? I think hes a f**king cook who things he is command of the bridge. So says the man who is armed to the teeth with Wiki knowledge ? Almost the same as saying that you can form an opinion on a game from what dopey dave says on Solent. I know nothing about Subs, but I could think of reasons why a sub doesnt need to be particularly quick, and your scenario of being chased around by a russian sub with benny hill music in the background doesnt seem particularly strong to me. I do very much admire your insistance not to back down even though you are woefully outgunned mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latter day saint Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 couldn't give a f*ck about the arguement to be honest just thought that comment was below the belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 18 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 18 November, 2012 couldn't give a f*ck about the arguement to be honest just thought that comment was below the belt. I hope you find the unecessary and irrelevant comments about my weight, my location and where I have paid tax to be equally so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 18 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 18 November, 2012 So says the man who is armed to the teeth with Wiki knowledge ? Almost the same as saying that you can form an opinion on a game from what dopey dave says on Solent. I know nothing about Subs, but I could think of reasons why a sub doesnt need to be particularly quick, and your scenario of being chased around by a russian sub with benny hill music in the background doesnt seem particularly strong to me. I do very much admire your insistance not to back down even though you are woefully outgunned mind. Your description did make me laugh, though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 18 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Tell me how it works Are you aware how long it takes to bring the reactor to the full power state to reach top speed? Any emergency would be over twice before you get to top speed...emergency surfacing etc Keep pitching them up mate and I will continue to bat them away. A lot longer than American and Russian ones, apparently........... Btw, assuming you are right for one moment, its a pity its taken another 30-40 posts to goad such information out of you. I do hope you are not responsible for training anybody to do their job... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 A lot longer than American and Russian ones, apparently........... Btw, assuming you are right for one moment, its a pity its taken another 30-40 posts to goad such information out of you. I do hope you are not responsible for training anybody to do their job... Tbf Alps, he has answered your questions on top speed, asking why 5-6 knots make a difference and in his opinion it doesnt. You have countered by posting certain scenarios of why, all of which have been proven that they wouldnt matter in a real world scenario, I honestly dont see what he needs to do or say ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Assuming I am right? Yeah, I don't have much experience at all. Ffs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Assuming I am right? Yeah, I don't have much experience at all. Ffs Not really worth it. I think 99.9999% of readers (actually everyone except Alpine) would realise the amount of experience you have and take your word for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danbert Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Trafalgars - 32kts top speed Astutes - Less than 29kts design target top speed. Progress or "limping" ? I know which one I would describe it as. As for your stupid goal-post moving comment about the carriers, well up until a few months ago we were back on CATOBAR designs with F-35Cs, and the QE carriers were originally supposed to be re-configurable so I asked the perfectly reasonable question as to whether launch speed might have been design factor for Astutes, if they really were to provide escort duty. But as usual you assume that arrogant patronising air like you are talking to a clueless child and ruin what might have been an interesting discussion. You sad little man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Alps are you for real in fact are you the real 007 , you seem to know more about the army and Navy , than nelson, woodhouse churchill montgomery, jackson , Dunnett et al . Did you make substansive General or Admiral or were you given just acting general and admiral Any way back to Aircraft, I had the opportunity to spend 12 hours in a shackelton in the gulf in the early seventies , brilliant stuff flying around the seas of the gulf carrying out surveillance on various vessels etc. In the mid eighties I was again fortunate to spend about 8 hours in a nimrod which was carrying out similar survellance. And no I was not in the RAf, The shackelton was just briliant , noisy but to sit in the gun turrets etc . It must have been equally scary for those guys who sat in there during areal combat. And the scoff the bluejobs gave us was equally good . So my question is pound for pound which has been the uks best survelliance aircraft. I wait your answer squadron leader biggles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 I have just rang up the BBC and Jeremy Clarkson and James may are looking at new concepts of racing boys toys , They like the idea of racing subs and hope to be able to do this in due course. Trafalgars - 32kts top speed Astutes - Less than 29kts design target top speed. Vanguards 31Kts Richard Hammond says hes up for it provided he can paint his yellow So Top Gear is to be mame Top Sub Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 19 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 19 November, 2012 Assuming I am right? Yeah, I don't have much experience at all. Ffs Another post that proves my point. Its all about image and ego with you. You may have the "experience" but you communicate it poorly. Your default response to any point is either a "yes/no" statement with no elaboration and we are supposed to bow down to your self-proclaimed knowhow without question, or is patronising and full of innuendo. I am glad I didnt sign up and get lumbered with you as responsible for my training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torres Posted 19 November, 2012 Share Posted 19 November, 2012 I vote for the mods to move this to the Golden Threads forum so it can serve as a reminder to one and all that Alps really is a spanner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 19 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 19 November, 2012 Mock all you want, but the quote "V8 engine with a Morris Minor gearbox" to describe Astutes comes from somewhere. I have just taken the time to read the letter from Rear Adm SR Lister, who was responsible for delivering Astute, and Steven Walker, its current commanding officer, in the Guardian, and whilst their comments are reassuring about its operational capability, neither address the speed issue; why was the design target set so high by the RN if it wasnt necessary at all ? Such information does not inspire public confidence after so much public money being spend, especially when the argument to build the Vanguard-class successors still needs to be won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonraker Posted 19 November, 2012 Share Posted 19 November, 2012 If he really knows as much as he claims (personally, I think he knows as much about subs as Mike Wilde knew about chairing a football club), why did he have to act all stupid and not just answer my questions sensibly ? I think hes a f**king cook who things he is command of the bridge. Cook or captain the thing that differentiates submariners from their above water colleges is the requirement to qualify in all aspects of the submarine, its called a part III. Whilst they do not have to operate everything they have to have a working knowledge of the whole boat. The interest in how a submarine works and what it is both capable of and actually does is part of being a submariner, in any case I believe DD is a weapons engineer not a cook. Your comments do I am afraid demonstrate a profound lack of knowledge and therefore leave you open to less than polite replies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 19 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 19 November, 2012 Cook or captain the thing that differentiates submariners from their above water colleges is the requirement to qualify in all aspects of the submarine, its called a part III. Whilst they do not have to operate everything they have to have a working knowledge of the whole boat. The interest in how a submarine works and what it is both capable of and actually does is part of being a submariner, in any case I believe DD is a weapons engineer not a cook. Your comments do I am afraid demonstrate a profound lack of knowledge and therefore leave you open to less than polite replies. Its all cool, Moonie. If he you had read the thrust of my comments properly, you will have noticed I was asking for information, not stating opinion dressed as fact. I only started making assertions because DellDays couldnt be arsed answering properly for whatever petty reason that occured to him. Notice how late into the discussion he threw the comment about bringing the reactor to full power. Until then he was p*ssing about - dismissing comment without explaining why. I will avoid discussing anything related to the Armed Forces in future, since it is abundantly clear that ex-servicemen on this site are completely unable to give a fair hearing to, or discuss sensibly with, those whom they have somehow worked out in their head are inferior - those who havent served. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintfully Posted 19 November, 2012 Share Posted 19 November, 2012 Golden Thread please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 19 November, 2012 Share Posted 19 November, 2012 Its all cool, Moonie. If he you had read the thrust of my comments properly, you will have noticed I was asking for information, not stating opinion dressed as fact. I only started making assertions because DellDays couldnt be arsed answering properly for whatever petty reason that occured to him. Notice how late into the discussion he threw the comment about bringing the reactor to full power. Until then he was p*ssing about - dismissing comment without explaining why. I will avoid discussing anything related to the Armed Forces in future, since it is abundantly clear that ex-servicemen on this site are completely unable to give a fair hearing to, or discuss sensibly with, those whom they have somehow worked out in their head are inferior - those who havent served. You are incredible You should have been in politics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 19 November, 2012 Share Posted 19 November, 2012 You are incredible You should have been in politics He is correct though, he is inferior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 19 November, 2012 Share Posted 19 November, 2012 RN submarines are infinitely better than Austrian ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 19 November, 2012 Share Posted 19 November, 2012 I think we can sum up this thread as basically: Alpine: TDD, is all this stuff about subs true? TDD: No, this that and the other Alpine: You're wrong, blah, blah, TDD: I'm a submariner I know what I'm talking about Alpine: I read wikipedia TDD: whatever Alpine: wah, wah, wah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 19 November, 2012 Share Posted 19 November, 2012 I think we can sum up this thread as basically: Alpine: TDD, is all this stuff about subs true? TDD: No, this that and the other Alpine: You're wrong, blah, blah, TDD: I'm a submariner I know what I'm talking about Alpine: I read wikipedia TDD: whatever Alpine: wah, wah, wah. Nutshell! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 19 November, 2012 Share Posted 19 November, 2012 I am very disappointed with British subs too. I bought one today. F*cker didn't even float. The exterior seemed to be made of some baguette-like substance, while the airy interior of the "living quarters" was full to bursting with ham, cheese and salad vegetables. It was only after I was dragged out of the Mersey that I found out that "sub" is an American word for sandwich. How we laughed on the way to A+E. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 20 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 20 November, 2012 I am very disappointed with British subs too. I bought one today. F*cker didn't even float. The exterior seemed to be made of some baguette-like substance, while the airy interior of the "living quarters" was full to bursting with ham, cheese and salad vegetables. It was only after I was dragged out of the Mersey that I found out that "sub" is an American word for sandwich. How we laughed on the way to A+E. What top speed did you get out of it ? Did it fulfill your expectations ? Despite it being apparently unimportant under all operation conditions, is it classified ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 20 November, 2012 Share Posted 20 November, 2012 My favourite sub is the Italian BMT, mmmmmmm top speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 20 November, 2012 Share Posted 20 November, 2012 Alpine "If he you had read the thrust of my comments properly, you will have noticed I was asking for information, not stating opinion dressed as fact. I only started making assertions because DellDays couldnt be arsed answering properly for whatever petty reason that occured to him" Alps me old shipmate. I suspect the real reason the Delldays can not respond fully to your questions and theories is basically down to signing of the Official Secrets act. Have you ever considered that is reason he cannot respond the way you want him to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 20 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 20 November, 2012 Alpine "If he you had read the thrust of my comments properly, you will have noticed I was asking for information, not stating opinion dressed as fact. I only started making assertions because DellDays couldnt be arsed answering properly for whatever petty reason that occured to him" Alps me old shipmate. I suspect the real reason the Delldays can not respond fully to your questions and theories is basically down to signing of the Official Secrets act. Have you ever considered that is reason he cannot respond the way you want him to. He broke it to then explain the reactor issue belatedly, did he ? Sorry, dont buy it VW. He wants to lord his know-how over those he considers ignorant. Anyway, more interested in the sandwiches, now that I can sleep safely knowing that the Astute, Ambush and her sisters are valliantly defending my way-of-life, albeit with the maritime equivalent of a Zimmer frame... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 20 November, 2012 Share Posted 20 November, 2012 (edited) I don't want to lord it over anyone. I stated that the story was not accurate and that was that I have not broken anything of the OSA. I trained as a security officer so know full well what is or isn't breaking anything No matter what I say. You had already decided what was what and that despite me saying a sun going 29 knots instead of 32 is pretty irrelevant Edited 20 November, 2012 by Thedelldays Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 20 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 20 November, 2012 I don't want to lord it over anyone. I stated that the story was not accurate and that was that I have not broken anything of the OSA. I trained as a security officer so know full well what is or isn't breaking anything No matter what I say. You had already decided what was what and that despite me saying a sun going 29 knots instead of 32 is pretty irrelevant I hadnt decided anything. I wanted to know if it was true that after 10bn investment, Astutes cannot hit their design targets. Dont forget, someone supposedly in the know set that speed target in the first place. I work in an environment where such failures to reach design targets are pretty damn catastrophic for business and often life-and-limb. And because my business is safety-critical and most of our quality standards are akin to MIL-STD specs, I can imagine the impact such failures could potentially have in your environment, though you imo dont have the awareness of the commercial impact like I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonraker Posted 20 November, 2012 Share Posted 20 November, 2012 Its all cool, Moonie. If he you had read the thrust of my comments properly, you will have noticed I was asking for information, not stating opinion dressed as fact. I only started making assertions because DellDays couldnt be arsed answering properly for whatever petty reason that occured to him. Notice how late into the discussion he threw the comment about bringing the reactor to full power. Until then he was p*ssing about - dismissing comment without explaining why. I will avoid discussing anything related to the Armed Forces in future, since it is abundantly clear that ex-servicemen on this site are completely unable to give a fair hearing to, or discuss sensibly with, those whom they have somehow worked out in their head are inferior - those who havent served. Alps your final comment is completely out of order. As an ex-serviceman who has attempted to bring some reality and knowledge (based on 40 yrs SM experience) to this discussion I do not recognise your slur on the ex-servicemen who have commented. What they have pointed out, some more diplomatically than others, is that your position is vulnerable to your lack of experience in the design, manufacture and operation of the most complex safety critical engineered product known to man. In previous threads you have stated that you work in a complex safety critical engineering sector, I am certain that if some of us ex-servicemen came on here slating your industry based on Newspaper articles and wiki you might point out a few flaws in the article / wiki as you have inside knowledge. A couple of easy questions for you: when was the last time we lost a SM? When was the last time a commercial organisation had a catastrophic fatal failure of a safety critical process? The fact that retiring Nuclear Qualified Submarine Engineers are amongst the most sought after across the UK engineering sector illustrates that they know their stuff. Finally I thought Simon Lister’s letter said all that was needed in the public domain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 20 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 20 November, 2012 (edited) Alps your final comment is completely out of order. As an ex-serviceman who has attempted to bring some reality and knowledge (based on 40 yrs SM experience) to this discussion I do not recognise your slur on the ex-servicemen who have commented. What they have pointed out, some more diplomatically than others, is that your position is vulnerable to your lack of experience in the design, manufacture and operation of the most complex safety critical engineered product known to man. In previous threads you have stated that you work in a complex safety critical engineering sector, I am certain that if some of us ex-servicemen came on here slating your industry based on Newspaper articles and wiki you might point out a few flaws in the article / wiki as you have inside knowledge . A couple of easy questions for you: when was the last time we lost a SM? When was the last time a commercial organisation had a catastrophic fatal failure of a safety critical process? The fact that retiring Nuclear Qualified Submarine Engineers are amongst the most sought after across the UK engineering sector illustrates that they know their stuff. Finally I thought Simon Lister’s letter said all that was needed in the public domain. I didnt slate the RN. If I slated anybody by asking if they were crap, at least in my mind I was thinking of BAE Systems and the MoD. Yes, I would point out inaccuracies. But knowing that I work in a complex engineering environment, with knowledge not exactly understandable or available to the bloke next door, I would not preface or end my answer with something along the lines of "you dont know what you are talking about". For examples, there are a couple in the Motoring section, particularly one about steer-by-wire. Now to your questions : Vanguard collided with L'Triomphant in 2009, Tireless was basically abandoned in Gibraltar for the best part of 2000 with a live steam leak (in fact Tireless is a f**king jinx, having killed 2 crew a few years back), Trenchant has also has a steam leak, and I seem to recall a Daily Mail article a few years back claiming that only one Trafalgar boat was on active service for several months because of a huge backlog of repairs required on the other boats. Oh, and of course the bridge crew of Astute ran her aground off the coast of Skye on 2010. You tell me (if you have the freedom to), how close were any of those to a loss ? Oh, and shall we talk about the Upholders, the subs that nearly sank when they fired torpedos ? Edited 20 November, 2012 by alpine_saint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonraker Posted 20 November, 2012 Share Posted 20 November, 2012 Alps , none of those examples were close to a loss, i.e. the irretrievable loss of the capability, the correct answer is 1971 when HMS Artemis sank alongside at HMS Dolphin with no loss of life. The V Class and Astute were human error and not close to a loss but of great concern all the same. Yes some T boats had defects like every boat or ship since man carved out a log for a dug out canoe or indeed built anything. I didn't say you slated the RN, I said ex-servicemen. I do not know which industry you work in so am unable to proffer examples of its failures but I am sure there are plenty. The problem with military failures is that they get a far worse press than commercial ones due to politicians and journalists seeing them as an soft target and all and sundry having an opinion more often than not ill informed. More people have been killed or maimed by industrial catastrophes than by military ones (active service excepted where that is the objective). The awful incident on Tireless was a tragedy but it was caused by an item of consumable stores, and was essentially due to Treasurery penny pinching and MoD failure to challenge it, nothing to do with the design of the submarine or the operators. The full coroners report is available on line, Google Tireless SCOG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 20 November, 2012 Share Posted 20 November, 2012 Oh, and shall we talk about the Upholders, the subs that nearly sank when they fired torpedos ? If you go back far enough you'll find the WW1 K class, which took over 5 minutes to dive, ( as the funnels had to be lowered and the boilers damped down ), and in their entire war service sank no enemy ships, yet cost the lives of several hundred crewmen. http://brisray.com/misc/mkclass1.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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