pap Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 You obviously know very little about subs Paps, they are advanced class miniatures. We make them smaller than the yanks do to make them harder to spot. They may only fire toothpicks but that is all you need to sink a Russian dingy or make the Italians change sides in a major conflict. You're quite right. I'm clueless on submarines. Very basic question: is it still a submarine when it's on the surface? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 I guess it is a marine at that point. Delldays, is there any special inside name you call a sub? Like firemen call fire engines 'appliances' and guns are like 'weapons' or something in the army and cars are 'vehicles' or 'veh-hicles' if you are American. Are they called something hard sounding like 'units' or 'whale dics'? Asking for a friend (Alpine). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 I love this thread. Just what the Doctor ordered after 2 days of B2B Conferencing. Like an enema for the brain. Now why don't we use Caterpillars? Sean Connery looked good in one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 I'd be more worried about the comments about there not being enough storage space for the crew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 Don't worry, everyone gets along fine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 16 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 16 November, 2012 Sure its not as bad as a Type VIIC U-boat, as U-96 was, but apparently Astutes ahve less space than Trafalgars despite being much bigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 But the feng shui is apparently fantastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 ....apparently Astutes ahve less space than Trafalgars despite being much bigger. Sort of reverse TARDIS then ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonraker Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 Trafalgars - 32kts top speed Astutes - Less than 29kts design target top speed. Progress or "limping" ? I know which one I would describe it as. As for your stupid goal-post moving comment about the carriers, well up until a few months ago we were back on CATOBAR designs with F-35Cs, and the QE carriers were originally supposed to be re-configurable so I asked the perfectly reasonable question as to whether launch speed might have been design factor for Astutes, if they really were to provide escort duty. But as usual you assume that arrogant patronising air like you are talking to a clueless child and ruin what might have been an interesting discussion. An SSN top speed has two potential uses, getting to an operational area as speedily as possible, as happened in the Falkland’s with the Valiant class (not as fast as T Class), or running away. 99% of a submarines life is spent at less than 10 knots. So failure to achieve the designed top speed, whatever it might be, is not significant. Most vessels Surface and Sub Surface only ever achieve their design top speed once in a lifetime and that is on trials. An analogy of the top speed is with your car, most modern cars are capable of speeds well in excess of 100mph how often do you use it? In aircraft carrier opps the key is not ship speed alone it is wind speed over the deck hence why a carrier will always turn into wind when flying sorties, the top speed is only required when there is no wind. No military ships spend any notable time at high speed it is both uneconomical and detrimental to effective mission system operations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 Erm, I am not sure there has actually been a "I'm right, you are wrong" discussion here. I started the thread and asked about the veractiy of the Guardian article, was told it was b*ll*cks in what I considered was a snooty manner, but am not convinced about the reasons given as to why it is b*ll*cks. And remain so. That surprises me as the way your banging on and on certainly appears you feel you are in the right. Whats more it seems this thread was started just so you could have an arguement. Is there too much snow at the door for you to waddle down the bakery for a dripping yum yum ? Time for a Saints web arguement then and a consistant frapping of the report button. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 Don't worry, everyone gets along fine There not real seamen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 16 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 16 November, 2012 An SSN top speed has two potential uses, getting to an operational area as speedily as possible, as happened in the Falkland’s with the Valiant class (not as fast as T Class), or running away. 99% of a submarines life is spent at less than 10 knots. So failure to achieve the designed top speed, whatever it might be, is not significant. Most vessels Surface and Sub Surface only ever achieve their design top speed once in a lifetime and that is on trials. An analogy of the top speed is with your car, most modern cars are capable of speeds well in excess of 100mph how often do you use it? In aircraft carrier opps the key is not ship speed alone it is wind speed over the deck hence why a carrier will always turn into wind when flying sorties, the top speed is only required when there is no wind. No military ships spend any notable time at high speed it is both uneconomical and detrimental to effective mission system operations. Odd analogy. If someone comes up behind me in my car, in another car, firing a machine gun at me, I am going to use my cars top speed. Even you admit it can be used for running away. Akula- and Yasen-class Russian SSNs are apparently capable of 35Kts. so, if one was heading for an Astute in a time of conflict, how will an Astute captain respond ? He can : Fire torpedos at it and destroy it. But has he got the correct rules of engagement to do so ? He may well start WW3. Leg it. Only his limping Astute is going to be overrun by the Akula/Yasen and they MIGHT have the rules of engagement to fire first. I can already hear you thinking "ah, but the Akula/Yasen is deaf sonar-wise at high speed, whereas his noise makes it p*ss easy to locate it. But again, maybe Mr Astute doesnt have the rules of engagement (highly likely with our Govt.) to fire first, so he might go by blind, but then again he might get lucky and fire off a couple of active sonar bursts, dial in a firing solution and send Mr Astute to the bottom whilst its captain is still wriggling his thumbs. The fact that we can spend 10billion and not put together a submarine capable of contemporary performance is a JOKE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 Those slow aircaft carriers are **** too. They can easily be caught by a destroyer. Speed is the only thing that counts yunno. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 Odd analogy. If someone comes up behind me in my car, in another car, firing a machine gun at me, I am going to use my cars top speed. Even you admit it can be used for running away. Akula- and Yasen-class Russian SSNs are apparently capable of 35Kts. so, if one was heading for an Astute in a time of conflict, how will an Astute captain respond ? He can : Fire torpedos at it and destroy it. But has he got the correct rules of engagement to do so ? He may well start WW3. Leg it. Only his limping Astute is going to be overrun by the Akula/Yasen and they MIGHT have the rules of engagement to fire first. I can already hear you thinking "ah, but the Akula/Yasen is deaf sonar-wise at high speed, whereas his noise makes it p*ss easy to locate it. But again, maybe Mr Astute doesnt have the rules of engagement (highly likely with our Govt.) to fire first, so he might go by blind, but then again he might get lucky and fire off a couple of active sonar bursts, dial in a firing solution and send Mr Astute to the bottom whilst its captain is still wriggling his thumbs. The fact that we can spend 10billion and not put together a submarine capable of contemporary performance is a JOKE. Surely the whole point of a submarine is to be stealthy, so basically if the Astute class submarine is doing as it should those pesky ruskies shouldnt know its there anyway ? As per actuve engagement, you are talking about 3 knots difference which is pretty paktry really and hardly worth quibling about. Factor this in to the fact that we are not currently in a time of war, nor is it that likely from an us vs the russians point of view. Also, I get your rules of engagement analogy but TBH in the situation you posed most captains would probably be stumped, especially if the russian already knew its own intention which would strategically give it the upper hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonraker Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 Odd analogy. If someone comes up behind me in my car, in another car, firing a machine gun at me, I am going to use my cars top speed. Even you admit it can be used for running away. Akula- and Yasen-class Russian SSNs are apparently capable of 35Kts. so, if one was heading for an Astute in a time of conflict, how will an Astute captain respond ? He can : Fire torpedos at it and destroy it. But has he got the correct rules of engagement to do so ? He may well start WW3. Leg it. Only his limping Astute is going to be overrun by the Akula/Yasen and they MIGHT have the rules of engagement to fire first. I can already hear you thinking "ah, but the Akula/Yasen is deaf sonar-wise at high speed, whereas his noise makes it p*ss easy to locate it. But again, maybe Mr Astute doesnt have the rules of engagement (highly likely with our Govt.) to fire first, so he might go by blind, but then again he might get lucky and fire off a couple of active sonar bursts, dial in a firing solution and send Mr Astute to the bottom whilst its captain is still wriggling his thumbs. The fact that we can spend 10billion and not put together a submarine capable of contemporary performance is a JOKE. If my car analogy is bit dodgy I don’t know where that puts then your pesky Russian analogy. For over 40 years during the cold war NATO boats and Russian boats stalked each other, often playing very dangerous cat and mouse games however there was never a direct SM on SM weapon engagement, if it didn’t happen then the likelihood of it happening now are of an order of liklihood so small it doesn’t warrant consideration. I do agree some of the alleged shortfalls in the ASTUTE performance are of concern, but ever was the case with first of class and highly complex systems, ask the French, the USA in deed any nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torres Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 Odd analogy. If someone comes up behind me in my car, in another car, firing a machine gun at me, I am going to use my cars top speed. Even you admit it can be used for running away. Akula- and Yasen-class Russian SSNs are apparently capable of 35Kts. so, if one was heading for an Astute in a time of conflict, how will an Astute captain respond ? He can : Fire torpedos at it and destroy it. But has he got the correct rules of engagement to do so ? He may well start WW3. Leg it. Only his limping Astute is going to be overrun by the Akula/Yasen and they MIGHT have the rules of engagement to fire first. I can already hear you thinking "ah, but the Akula/Yasen is deaf sonar-wise at high speed, whereas his noise makes it p*ss easy to locate it. But again, maybe Mr Astute doesnt have the rules of engagement (highly likely with our Govt.) to fire first, so he might go by blind, but then again he might get lucky and fire off a couple of active sonar bursts, dial in a firing solution and send Mr Astute to the bottom whilst its captain is still wriggling his thumbs. The fact that we can spend 10billion and not put together a submarine capable of contemporary performance is a JOKE. Spoken with the gravitas of man who has spent his whole working life in the RN submarine service. Oh, wait.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 See Alps, this is what I mean by "trounced". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mack rill Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 Talc Boy you still there? is the white powder stuff perfumed now or still like the old chalk block of the early seventies, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 What happened to TDD and Alps ? I have an image of them in the bath together playing with their airfix subs, having an arguement about Alps speed and whether he should see TDDs in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 16 November, 2012 Share Posted 16 November, 2012 Odd analogy. If someone comes up behind me in my car, in another car, firing a machine gun at me, I am going to use my cars top speed. Even you admit it can be used for running away. Akula- and Yasen-class Russian SSNs are apparently capable of 35Kts. so, if one was heading for an Astute in a time of conflict, how will an Astute captain respond ? He can : Fire torpedos at it and destroy it. But has he got the correct rules of engagement to do so ? He may well start WW3. Leg it. Only his limping Astute is going to be overrun by the Akula/Yasen and they MIGHT have the rules of engagement to fire first. I can already hear you thinking "ah, but the Akula/Yasen is deaf sonar-wise at high speed, whereas his noise makes it p*ss easy to locate it. But again, maybe Mr Astute doesnt have the rules of engagement (highly likely with our Govt.) to fire first, so he might go by blind, but then again he might get lucky and fire off a couple of active sonar bursts, dial in a firing solution and send Mr Astute to the bottom whilst its captain is still wriggling his thumbs. The fact that we can spend 10billion and not put together a submarine capable of contemporary performance is a JOKE. Just give up Please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 17 November, 2012 Share Posted 17 November, 2012 This thread has no winners, if only you'd have kept with the orig' answer dellboy, that would have been perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 17 November, 2012 Share Posted 17 November, 2012 Its alright, he'll be back later on once we have lost to QPR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 17 November, 2012 Share Posted 17 November, 2012 This thread has no winners, if only you'd have kept with the orig' answer dellboy, that would have been perfect. *hangs head in shame* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 17 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 17 November, 2012 See Alps, this is what I mean by "trounced". Oh, I see... "trounced" means enough people shout and sneer at you, sod the content. Dell Days doesnt even read stuff properly before getting a dismissal in, unlike moonraker who is a least courteous. Nope, not convinced, pap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 17 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 17 November, 2012 Its alright, he'll be back later on once we have lost to QPR Ah. The penny drops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 17 November, 2012 Share Posted 17 November, 2012 (edited) Oh, I see... "trounced" means enough people shout and sneer at you, sod the content. Dell Days doesnt even read stuff properly before getting a dismissal in, unlike moonraker who is a least courteous. Nope, not convinced, pap. TBF you had a few counter arguements and decided to ignore it. I didnt really see too much shouting and sneering, you argue like your usual self, a continual thumping of the same repeated message with slightly varied content, this continues until enough people attempt to counter argue your point at which point you disappear. Edited 17 November, 2012 by Smirking_Saint Iphone keyboard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 17 November, 2012 Share Posted 17 November, 2012 As a layman, I would have thought that submarines are basically designed to carry out specific operations and be as undetectable as possible during them, I'm assuming they would have an optimum silent speed. I also assume that if they were escorting surface ships they would want to stay undetected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 17 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 17 November, 2012 TBF you had a few counter arguements and decided to ignore it. Sorry, thats b*ll*cks. Not one point has been made to counter the argument. I know the main mode of operation is stealth (slow) already. "Submarines dont need high speed" is crap. Every other nation building them design for much higher speed than us (or at least achieve their design speeds after 10billion of investment), and there are emergency cases where it is necessary, such as crash diving or emergency surfacing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 17 November, 2012 Share Posted 17 November, 2012 Sorry, thats b*ll*cks. Not one point has been made to counter the argument. I know the main mode of operation is stealth (slow) already. "Submarines dont need high speed" is crap. Every other nation building them design for much higher speed than us (or at least achieve their design speeds after 10billion of investment), and there are emergency cases where it is necessary, such as crash diving or emergency surfacing. sorry alpine..as a Petty Officer in the RN and worked on high end SM operations both at sea and in shore support in supporting real time operations..I think I knwo what I am on about you are talking so much crap, by the way please tell me all about this crash diving and emergency surfacing stuff....I would like to know your thoughts on how it works Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deeps Posted 17 November, 2012 Share Posted 17 November, 2012 Don't know much about subs so I'm not sure who to side with in this epic battle of wills. Of course if I knew that one of you had years of experience as Submariner in the Royal Navy I'd be more inclined to believe you..... I did 32 years as a submariner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 I once dated a torpedo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Ah so THERE we have it. That explains a lot. TDD used to be a Petty Officer. As opposed now to being a Petty Poster : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 please tell me all about this crash diving and emergency surfacing stuff....I would like to know your thoughts on how it works Baking Powder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stu0x Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 The fact that we can spend 10billion and not put together a submarine capable of contemporary performance is a JOKE. How much of that 10billion was made up from your taxes, exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadgerBadger Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 I did 32 years as a submariner. Apt username - like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Okay we have had the views of our resident military expert in alps. After all he is the leading authority on the army and submarines . Time to debate the effettiveness of the euro fighter vs the tornado . The euro looks really smart in the air but it deliver the goods . Personally I think the buccaneers and lightening were more pleasing to the eye . Chocs away old boy . Derry will know abit about aircraft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Okay we have had the views of our resident military expert in alps. After all he is the leading authority on the army and submarines . Time to debate the effettiveness of the euro fighter vs the tornado . The euro looks really smart in the air but it deliver the goods . Personally I think the buccaneers and lightening were more pleasing to the eye . Chocs away old boy . Derry will know abit about aircraft Ah The Buccaneer. Perfectly described as having the flight characteristics of a Cement Mixer in the event of an engine failure. See I am an expert on something "military" as well (Yes I was expert enough to listen to the commentator at one of the Boscombe Down Airshows back in the day....) Which reminds me - question asked by RAF High Command to the Fleet Air Arm Well the hell are your Buccaneers? Under my Bucking Hat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Sorry, thats b*ll*cks. Not one point has been made to counter the argument. I know the main mode of operation is stealth (slow) already. "Submarines dont need high speed" is crap. Every other nation building them design for much higher speed than us (or at least achieve their design speeds after 10billion of investment), and there are emergency cases where it is necessary, such as crash diving or emergency surfacing. Except for the point where myself and moonraker countered your arguement ? That you ignored and dissapeared ? Or the bit where you talk how much faster a rival hunter killer sub is ? At a massive 3 knots quicker ? I am not tackling the man here Alps, but you like giving the impression you have the upper hand in an arguement by just repeating your point over and over and by ignoring anything that counters your points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
View From The Top Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Except for the point where myself and moonraker countered your arguement ? That you ignored and dissapeared ? Or the bit where you talk how much faster a rival hunter killer sub is ? At a massive 3 knots quicker ? I am not tackling the man here Alps, but you like giving the impression you have the upper hand in an arguement by just repeating your point over and over and by ignoring anything that counters your points A fat freak in Austria who lacked the minerals to pull on a uniform Vs Experienced current and ex-submariner senior ratings with well over 60 years service between them. It's a tough one to call that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 18 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 18 November, 2012 sorry alpine..as a Petty Officer in the RN and worked on high end SM operations both at sea and in shore support in supporting real time operations..I think I knwo what I am on about you are talking so much crap, by the way please tell me all about this crash diving and emergency surfacing stuff....I would like to know your thoughts on how it works Do you really need such a high rank to turn the loaves out of their trays ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Do you really need such a high rank to turn the loaves out of their trays ? those that turn loaves on board got further into the process than you...it seems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 18 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Except for the point where myself and moonraker countered your arguement ? That you ignored and dissapeared ? Or the bit where you talk how much faster a rival hunter killer sub is ? At a massive 3 knots quicker ? I am not tackling the man here Alps, but you like giving the impression you have the upper hand in an arguement by just repeating your point over and over and by ignoring anything that counters your points 6 knots. At least, since the MoD/RN are too scared to reveal the top speed of an Astute. Seems to be pretty bloody important to them..... We can keep going as long as the mods permit it, lads. You lot doffing the cap at Queen and Country, trying to argue the sky isnt blue if it is in the interests of Her Maj, and me wanting to get to the bottom of this despite a barrage of sneering about how you are much all better men because you let pimple-faced tw*ts from universities tell you to jump and how high for x number of years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 18 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 18 November, 2012 those that turn loaves on board got further into the process than you...it seems Desperate. Run along now, captain will be wanting his cucumber sandwiches for tea... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 6 knots. At least, since the MoD/RN are too scared to reveal the top speed of an Astute. Seems to be pretty bloody important to them..... 6 knots could be the difference between outrunning a blue whale and having to rub one off through the torpedo tube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 Desperate. Run along now, captain will be wanting his cucumber sandwiches for tea... haha...you are full of laughs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 6 knots. At least, since the MoD/RN are too scared to reveal the top speed of an Astute. Seems to be pretty bloody important to them..... We can keep going as long as the mods permit it, lads. You lot doffing the cap at Queen and Country, trying to argue the sky isnt blue if it is in the interests of Her Maj, and me wanting to get to the bottom of this despite a barrage of sneering about how you are much all better men because you let pimple-faced tw*ts from universities tell you to jump and how high for x number of years... too scared...or, classified.. dear god Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 18 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 18 November, 2012 too scared...or, classified.. dear god 10 billion reasons why its "too scared". If the "top speed" is never to be used, why is it "classified" and deemed important ? You are full of contradictions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 10 billion reasons why its "too scared". If the "top speed" is never to be used, why is it "classified" and deemed important ? You are full of contradictions. do you think YOU..know the full capabilities of the SM...I mean..speed, deep diving depth, speed at can launch weapons from...what speed the sonar blanks..range of the sonar. you know what they want you to know..and you know that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 18 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 18 November, 2012 do you think YOU..know the full capabilities of the SM...I mean..speed, deep diving depth, speed at can launch weapons from...what speed the sonar blanks..range of the sonar. you know what they want you to know..and you know that So you are now telling me in an emergency and Astute can go much faster than rumour and accusation has it, is that right ? Wish you'd posted that 30-40 posts ago. You posted about teething troubles and the amount of time since the Trafalgars were built as an argument about the other points raised by the article, and I can agree with them; but your argument about the speed has been to almost justify the accusation that Astutes cannot hit their designed-for speed because it aint needed it anyway. Which is bizarre, to say the least, if it is really caused by a major design flaw. Now you are saying it is being deliberately under-rated for public consumption. Maybe if you just discussed this sensibly in the first place without the smug patronising mentality which seems to be exhibited by all ex-service types, even those who cleaned the bogs, perhaps we could have avoided another argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 18 November, 2012 Share Posted 18 November, 2012 ...... perhaps we could have avoided another argument. The best way to avoid an argument is to not go looking for one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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