Frank's cousin Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 Alps, don't you see though, that whilst its a fair opinion to find his actions distasteful, its still a freedom we all enjoy? We simply dont know whether this is some ego driven show of bravado in light of his politics, or whether a recognition that there are still some of the extreme feckwits over there and it could have led to reprisals against family/friends etc. Also, the great thing about living in a country that has these freedoms, is that despite the fact that some abuse it through preaching shiedt, hatred and biggotry it gives us an opportiunity to demonstrate how ridiculous and ignorant their views are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skintsaint Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 Didn't realise the poppy just meant British serviceman...I thought it meant allied servicemen of all nationalities involved...hence why you buy them out here too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 As skintsaint and others have said wearing the poppy is not about british servicemen , its about others that were killed in the wars including irish folk on both sides of the political divide. While cameron and co may have apologised for the evens of bloody sunday > I hear no apology from the footballer re all the IRA atrocities they committed, And who can forget the Omagh rememberance bombing. Clearly he has. And I wish Rio ferninand who shut the F**K up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 (edited) Agains, you're failing to understand, i didn't say they should be mandatory. Poppies are worn to represent the dead of that country, if McClean feels he cannot betray his own morals and wear one, as his is choice, then surely he also shouldnt betray his own morals and earn his money in the same country, it's as simple as that is it not? No. Answer my question first. You have made this a matter of morals rather then the right for political free speech. The moral standpoint is something I agree with, as I have repeatedly stated, but I would not demand someone moved out of the country simply because a moral division occurs here. You obviously would, so where do you draw a line with something this subjective? Where does that idea stop? It is obvious we will not agree on this. Edited 12 November, 2012 by Colinjb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 As skintsaint and others have said wearing the poppy is not about british servicemen , its about others that were killed in the wars including irish folk on both sides of the political divide. While cameron and co may have apologised for the evens of bloody sunday > I hear no apology from the footballer re all the IRA atrocities they committed, And who can forget the Omagh rememberance bombing. Clearly he has. And I wish Rio ferninand who shut the F**K up What is that clown Ferdinand saying now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 No. Answer my question first. You have made this a matter of morals rather then the right for political free speech. The moral standpoint is something I agree with, as I have repeatedly stated, but I would not demand someone moved out of the country simply because a moral division occurs here. You obviously would, so where do you draw a line with something this subjective? Where does that idea stop? It is obvious we will not agree on this. I've just read through this thread and I can't find one person saying McClean shouldn't have the right to wear a shirt without a poppy - just that he's a c**t and a hypocrit for doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 I've just read through this thread and I can't find one person saying McClean shouldn't have the right to wear a shirt without a poppy - just that he's a c**t and a hypocrit for doing so. Yep. He's exercising his right to be the big Republican hero whilst talking Union money, we are exercising our right to call him a c**t and a hypocrite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 I've just read through this thread and I can't find one person saying McClean shouldn't have the right to wear a shirt without a poppy - just that he's a c**t and a hypocrit for doing so. Well, Turkish feels he should move abroad if he feels that strongly about it. That is his right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 I will not call him a c*** but he is a hypocrite and needs to do some history lessons As for bloody sunday a certain Mr McGuinness was there stirring it up, he had blood on his hands , I have never heard a formal apology from him or adams for all the atrocities they were involved in. Some folk need to do their history on the events that led up to bloody sunday , there was massive provocation occuring between both sides. I know I was doing my second tour of duty in derry at the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 No. Answer my question first. You have made this a matter of morals rather then the right for political free speech. The moral standpoint is something I agree with, as I have repeatedly stated, but I would not demand someone moved out of the country simply because a moral division occurs here. You obviously would, so where do you draw a line with something this subjective? Where does that idea stop? It is obvious we will not agree on this. What question would that be colin? The one you told me the answer to? If its not a question of morals what is it a question of? No one is demanding he be removed from the country, again youre not understanding. It really is quite simple. Of his morals prevent him from wearing a logo embroidered onto a football shirt which represents respect for the dead of the country that employ him, then surely he wouldn't want to betray his morals by earning a living in that country. As I said earlier would you work in country where you were encouraged to sieg Heil every morning or would your morals prevent this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 Well, Turkish feels he should move abroad if he feels that strongly about it. That is his right. I said that morally he should question taking a wage from the country where he morally objects to honouring their dead serviceman that fought to give him the right to earn that wage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 (edited) Yep. He's exercising his right to be the big Republican hero whilst talking Union money, we are exercising our right to call him a c**t and a hypocrite. Union money?! Come on now... you really think the money which funds the premiership is 'union money'. It's far more complex than that today. And as for the whole, is he a **** for not wearing a poppy debate... of course he isn't. I wear a poppy every year on the 11th of November, but why the hell should that mean that someone else is a **** for not wearing one?! What happened to choice? Perhaps this article provides a nice summary - http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ruthdudleyedwards/100185697/lets-call-a-halt-to-poppy-fascism/ Jon Snow Interview - http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-10/brits-protest-poppy-pressure/4365180 Edited 12 November, 2012 by Saintandy666 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 (edited) What question would that be colin? The one you told me the answer to? If its not a question of morals what is it a question of? No one is demanding he be removed from the country, again youre not understanding. It really is quite simple. Of his morals prevent him from wearing a logo embroidered onto a football shirt which represents respect for the dead of the country that employ him, then surely he wouldn't want to betray his morals by earning a living in that country. As I said earlier would you work in country where you were encouraged to sieg Heil every morning or would your morals prevent this? It's quite funny how my opinion is clear yet you keep asking the same questions, i'm not wasting my time answering them again, particularly as you are preferring to be evasive rather then direct. The common ground is that we all agree that Mclean's decision was questionable, that's enough for me. Edited 12 November, 2012 by Colinjb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 According to the report about this incident I read, McClean apparently had to close his Twitter account for while for posting sectarian sh*t abusing people in Ulster. Why cant some of you liberal hand-wringers look past your lofty principles and accept that McClean is a Grade-A front-bottom ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 Union money?! Come on now... you really think the money which funds the premiership is 'union money'. It's far more complex than that today. And as for the whole, is he a **** for not wearing a poppy debate... of course he isn't. I wear a poppy every year on the 11th of November, but why the hell should that mean that someone else is a **** for not wearing one?! What happened to choice? Perhaps this article provides a nice summary - http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ruthdudleyedwards/100185697/lets-call-a-halt-to-poppy-fascism/ Jon Snow Interview - http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-10/brits-protest-poppy-pressure/4365180 The vast majority of money he earns comes from British people. He is therefore a hypocrite for being happy to earn a very good living from those people, but not show respect to the war dead from that nation, a sign of respect that even a school kid would know is a sensitive issue for many in this country. And it's not like he's just forgotten to stick a poppy on his jacket as he goes out for the evening, he's clearly specifically asked to wear a different shirt to all of his teammates, therefore making a very clear statement on his views on the poppy and what it represents. It shows a lack of respect to those thousands of Sunderland fans that pay his wages every week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 According to the report about this incident I read, McClean apparently had to close his Twitter account for while for posting sectarian sh*t abusing people in Ulster. Why cant some of you liberal hand-wringers look past your lofty principles and accept that McClean is a Grade-A front-bottom ?? Us liberal hand-wringers keep to our principles! Yes, we personally wear poppies and support the good work that the RBL does... but why should that mean that everyone else has to conform? I believe in the right for everyone to have a different opinion and for everyone to be different, even where that opinion and outlook doesn't match my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 Us liberal hand-wringers keep to our principles! Yes, we personally wear poppies and support the good work that the RBL does... but why should that mean that everyone else has to conform? I believe in the right for everyone to have a different opinion and for everyone to be different, even where that opinion and outlook doesn't match my own. I note you've ignored the key point of my post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 The vast majority of money he earns comes from British people. He is therefore a hypocrite for being happy to earn a very good living from those people, but not show respect to the war dead from that nation, a sign of respect that even a school kid would know is a sensitive issue for many in this country. And it's not like he's just forgotten to stick a poppy on his jacket as he goes out for the evening, he's clearly specifically asked to wear a different shirt to all of his teammates, therefore making a very clear statement on his views on the poppy and what it represents. It shows a lack of respect to those thousands of Sunderland fans that pay his wages every week. Not at all. He is paid to play football, not to reflect the views of fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 I note you've ignored the key point of my post. I don't necessarily think anyone is a 'grade-A front bottom' just because they disagree with me... if that is what you are getting at? People have different opinions, and where possible we should discuss that civilly and coherently where necessary without resorting to anger and abuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 Not at all. He is paid to play football, not to reflect the views of fans. Where have I said he is paid to reflect the views of fans? I think you're getting confused between the words "respect" and "reflect". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 Where have I said he is paid to reflect the views of fans? I think you're getting confused between the words "respect" and "reflect". What about fans respecting his views? Choosing not to wear a poppy on his shirt is hardly an aggressive move. It is a very passive action, and does not affect any of supporter's right to wear a poppy if they so wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 What about fans respecting his views? Choosing not to wear a poppy on his shirt is hardly an aggressive move. It is a very passive action, and does not affect any of supporter's right to wear a poppy if they so wish. Who said it stops supporters wearing a poppy? He gets paid a massive amount by the people of Sunderland to play football for them. It's not a huge ask for him to show an appropriate level of respect to a cause that will mean a huge deal to those people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 Do you know, it never occurred to me that his family back in Ireland could suffer from a backlash if he wore a poppy on his shirt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 Do you know, it never occurred to me that his family back in Ireland could suffer from a backlash if he wore a poppy on his shirt. Like what exactly? Plenty of Irish players from both the north and south have been able to wear poppy shirts without having their houses blown up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridge too far Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 (edited) Like what exactly? Plenty of Irish players from both the north and south have been able to wear poppy shirts without having their houses blown up! I don't know - it was something someone else mentioned Look - I don't condone or criticise his actions and I've already said that. So don't assume I'm supporting him. I'm just trying to understand both points of view and stating that a potential backlash hadn't occurred to me. That's all. Edited 12 November, 2012 by bridge too far Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 Like what exactly? Plenty of Irish players from both the north and south have been able to wear poppy shirts without having their houses blown up! Depends who the family is involved with. The lad obviously holds more extreme views to many (based on the deletion of his twitter account), perhaps they have history? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 Not at all. He is paid to play football, not to reflect the views of fans. and do you know why Sunderland are called the Black Cats?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 and do you know why Sunderland are called the Black Cats?? It's a napoleonic war reference isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 Hardly makes him a hypocrite. It's not as if he's publicly stated or vowed one thing and done another. If anything, it makes him remarkably consistent, however misguided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 and do you know why Sunderland are called the Black Cats?? I don't think he is not wearing it because of the Napoleonic wars tbf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 Like what exactly? Plenty of Irish players from both the north and south have been able to wear poppy shirts without having their houses blown up! Maybe he is related to or is friends with someone who had a family member gunned down by the British army? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saintandy666 Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 Who said it stops supporters wearing a poppy? He gets paid a massive amount by the people of Sunderland to play football for them. It's not a huge ask for him to show an appropriate level of respect to a cause that will mean a huge deal to those people. Why does it matter if he gets paid a huge amount of money? That isn't in the spirit of remembrance day whatsoever. He should wear a poppy because he wants to, not because he has to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 People should be made to wear a poppy at gun point, I think it keeps with the spirit of the whole thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 (edited) People should be made to wear a poppy at gun point, I think it keeps with the spirit of the whole thing Don't get all wilfred owen on us, you lemon. Edited 12 November, 2012 by shurlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 (edited) Don't get all wilfred owen on us, you lemon. You calling me a scouser? it's just the Anthem For Doomed Youth Edited 12 November, 2012 by Tokyo-Saint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 Why does it matter if he gets paid a huge amount of money? That isn't in the spirit of remembrance day whatsoever. He should wear a poppy because he wants to, not because he has to. I think you're missing the point - its relevant that he earns a lot of money because of where that money comes from - the supporters of Sunderland He should have the decency to respect something important to the vast majority of them. And that's the point, he should want to wear one. No-one is saying he should be forced to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 I think you're missing the point - its relevant that he earns a lot of money because of where that money comes from - the supporters of Sunderland He should have the decency to respect something important to the vast majority of them. And that's the point, he should want to wear one. No-one is saying he should be forced to. If you were working in Derry and invited to an IRA remembrance day, honouring those who died trying to free Ireland would you go along? What, not even if everyone you worked with thought it was really important? Come on, put on your balaclava and grab a gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 If you were working in Derry and invited to an IRA remembrance day, honouring those who died trying to free Ireland would you go along? What, not even if everyone you worked with thought it was really important? Come on, put on your balaclava and grab a gun. If I felt that strongly I would'nt work there and take their money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 If you were working in Derry and invited to an IRA remembrance day, honouring those who died trying to free Ireland would you go along? What, not even if everyone you worked with thought it was really important? Come on, put on your balaclava and grab a gun. I wouldn't ever work for an organisation that had an IRA rememberance day, therfore wouldn't be an issue. Balaclava and a gun sound a laugh though, an upgrade on the team building paintballing day out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 If I felt that strongly I would'nt work there and take their money What if they worked exporting a product to both Ireland and the UK and also around the world? Would that makke a difference? My point is not whether he is right or wrong but that he should be given the freedom to choose without a bunch of meat heads calling him a cVnt. After all, the fight against fascism, and those who gave their lives fighting that cause is what the poppy represents to many. "(Her old man) He don't like blacks or queers Yet he's proud he beat the Nazis? How queer" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 If I felt that strongly I would'nt work there and take their money But James McClean was born in Londonderry, he's British. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 If you were working in Derry and invited to an IRA remembrance day, honouring those who died trying to free Ireland would you go along? What, not even if everyone you worked with thought it was really important? I would, even though I despise the Republican movement and its actions with all my being. I wouldnt want to alienate myself from my community. When in Rome, and all that... On the other hand, I wouldnt be stupid enough to find myself working in Londonderry anyway. My family and I have taken place in the October 10th celebrations here. I dont really understand the significance of it, but we thought it was important to integrate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 But James McClean was born in Londonderry, he's British. Well he turned down playing for Northern Ireland to play for the Republic, so that's a bit debateable! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 aintforever wrote Maybe he is related to or is friends with someone who had a family member gunned down by the British army? Of course the IRA do murder innocent people or soldiers. So are you saying the prison officer who was shot by one of the many IRA factions was not gunned downed but accidently shot as they were shooting rabbits etc. Im somewhat offended by your comments thats what British Soldiers did out here in Ireland? I i Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpbury Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 Phew. Firstly, for a football player to have any kind of moral stand point is an achievement (cf Ferdinands/McClean). Rather that than the Chuckle Brothers. My own view is that I'm angry with McClean coz the poppy is remembering soldiers who go and get killed in wars. They're not really asked or required to believe in what they do, and they certainly didn't get a choice in WW/I/II and previous wars. Soldiers have it hard, and it's the politicians are the wenakers. Poppies are for the soldiers, not the pollies, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 What if they worked exporting a product to both Ireland and the UK and also around the world? Would that makke a difference? My point is not whether he is right or wrong but that he should be given the freedom to choose without a bunch of meat heads calling him a cVnt. After all, the fight against fascism, and those who gave their lives fighting that cause is what the poppy represents to many. "(Her old man) He don't like blacks or queers Yet he's proud he beat the Nazis? How queer" The idea of freedom is that you can choose one path and if people think you are hypocritical then they can tell you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 But James McClean was born in Londonderry, he's British. So he plays for Northern Ireland or does he just hate everything British? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 Thanks for the efforts Serg, it was a good try but it is no good, I still miss dune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 (edited) Thanks for the efforts Serg, it was a good try but it is no good, I still miss dune. and you are very much a poor man's Verbal Edited 12 November, 2012 by Sergei Gotsmanov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 12 November, 2012 Share Posted 12 November, 2012 and you are very much a poor man's Verbal Bearsy! I'm a poor man's bearsy FFS get it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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