TopGun Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 There are a couple of comments from Pompey fans on the News site claiming that Saints have borrowed £30m as a Cayman Islands bank loan. Now I can't see anything that verifies that and I would expect that Saints would borrow money for short term periods like any other football club that is credit worthy. But Cayman Islands sounds a bit of nonsense. Has anyone else a view or any knowledge about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 hate to tell you...its true....the sum is not confirmed (i dont think)..but it is true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubai_phil Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 Yeah we have views About 40 pages at the last count. HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 A loan has been taken out, I don't believe that the loan was for 30 million it was for about a third of that (from memory....) and it's purpose was unclear. Either way, for them to criticise....... They can't even trust the word of their own fans for a grand each..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGun Posted 4 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 4 November, 2012 Must have missed that. can someone do a link to the thread please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 Must have missed that. can someone do a link to the thread please? Don't do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spudders Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 Oh no not again! When will those thicko skates get their heads around the difference between company A taking out loans & making the required payments at the required time, and company B taking out loans but not paying back amounts when required? Jeez it's not rocket science is it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 1) It isn't the Cayman Islands, it is a British Virgin Island registered company 2) No-one knows the purpose, size or length of the loan Just Skates trying to stir things without knowing any more than we do, which is very little at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 Oh no not again! When will those thicko skates get their heads around the difference between company A taking out loans & making the required payments at the required time, and company B taking out loans but not paying back amounts when required? Jeez it's not rocket science is it. I think there is a small thread showing how stupid that city is elsewhere in the forum.... if only I could remember where. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 I think they make a valid point given NCs comments in March 2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trumush Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 Don't look on the Skate News site. They don't really like us you know !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 I think they make a valid point given NCs comments in March 2010 Yes, debt free. That is the point of concern. I would trust him over an Israeli gunrunner any day though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGun Posted 4 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 4 November, 2012 Don't look on the Skate News site. They don't really like us you know !!! I like to look at their site as it's generally good fun watching them writhing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?t=40433 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 Oh no not again! When will those thicko skates get their heads around the difference between company A taking out loans & making the required payments at the required time, and company B taking out loans but not paying back amounts when required? Jeez it's not rocket science is it. Have we made required payments at the required time then? As it stands none of us know what we have or haven't done. But in Wonga Cortese we trust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micky Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 Yes, debt free. That is the point of concern. I would trust him over an Israeli gunrunner any day though. When he made the comments, they were true - we were debt free. Now we aren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 As it stands none of us know what we have or haven't done. Indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 Yes, debt free. That is the point of concern. I would trust him over an Israeli gunrunner any day though. "clubs spend money they don't have, they spend next years money. They spend money that will not arrive for two years and say 'But we'll have some success and bring in more cash to cover the shortfall' it cannot be sustained, in good times you need to save money for bad time. If we reach the premier league I would like to be in a position where we didn't need parachute payments. In good years you should put money away for bad years" Nicola Cortese - March 2010. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGun Posted 4 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 4 November, 2012 http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?t=40433 Thank you Trousers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 "clubs spend money they don't have, they spend next years money. They spend money that will not arrive for two years and say 'But we'll have some success and bring in more cash to cover the shortfall' it cannot be sustained, in good times you need to save money for bad time. If we reach the premier league I would like to be in a position where we didn't need parachute payments. In good years you should put money away for bad years" Nicola Cortese - March 2010. Is there any evidence we have already spent the loan? #devilsadvocate Not exactly saving for a rainy day, but certainly releasing cash for purposes unknown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 When he made the comments, they were true - we were debt free. Now we aren't. Heading into Groundhog Day territory here (for once) but it depends what people mean by 'debt'. For example, I owe my mortgage company c.£100k but I don't consider myself to be 'in debt'. However, if my assets were less than my loan, then I would consider myself to be 'in debt'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenridge Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 "clubs spend money they don't have, they spend next years money. They spend money that will not arrive for two years and say 'But we'll have some success and bring in more cash to cover the shortfall' it cannot be sustained, in good times you need to save money for bad time. If we reach the premier league I would like to be in a position where we didn't need parachute payments. In good years you should put money away for bad years" Nicola Cortese - March 2010. And your point is what Walt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 And your point is what Walt? I thought tht would be quite obvious Barry. We are doing exactly what our chairman said we shouldn't do only 2 1/2 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenridge Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 I thought tht would be quite obvious Barry. We are doing exactly what our chairman said we shouldn't do only 2 1/2 years ago. And you know that for sure do you? That's not what he said if you read your own quote. Do you know that this is not an accounting practice rather than a debt loan in the true sense. You don't have to answer, it's a rhetorical question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dronskisaint Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 "clubs spend money they don't have, they spend next years money. They spend money that will not arrive for two years and say 'But we'll have some success and bring in more cash to cover the shortfall' it cannot be sustained, in good times you need to save money for bad time. If we reach the premier league I would like to be in a position where we didn't need parachute payments. In good years you should put money away for bad years" Nicola Cortese - March 2010. Ah the sinister tax-efficient loan versus the frittering of capital reserves - how nice to have the option, how nice to have the collateral. How nice to be at the West end of the M27:p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 And you know that for sure do you? That's not what he said if you read your own quote. Do you know that this is not an accounting practice rather than a debt loan in the true sense. You don't have to answer, it's a rhetorical question. As CB Fry said, none of us know the reasons behind the loan. Either Cortese is going back on his 'promise' and being reckless with our finances or it's to ease cash flow for one season. We'll find out in about 18 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 And you know that for sure do you? That's not what he said if you read your own quote. Do you know that this is not an accounting practice rather than a debt loan in the true sense. You don't have to answer, it's a rhetorical question. What do you think the loan was secured against? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VectisSaint Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 When he made the comments, they were true - we were debt free. Now we aren't. But if we are at the end of the season, or at the next annual financial reporting date, then is there a problem with a short term loan to obviate cash flow problems. Premier League TV money arrives at certain times in the season, but expenditure on players happens primarily at the start of the season (and maybe in January). Too many financiers only worry about quarterly results, when we should be more concerned about the longer term (at least yearly). If we can be self-sustaining from season to season then there is no cause for concern. But a few on here do not understand company finances and take great delight in apparently proving that our Chief Exec doesn't know what he is doing (in their view). Anyway it is apparently all the fault of Les Reed who is probably a closet Skate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spudders Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 Have we made required payments at the required time then? Unless I hear that we've defaulted on loan payments or not paid money owed to charities, I'm happy to believe that whatever debts we do have are being serviced correctly. If there's one area we should be able to assume Nicola knows his way around better than relationships with local press or communicating with fans, it's ensuring our finances are in order Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huffton Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 If there's one area we should be able to assume Nicola knows his way around better than relationships with local press or communicating with fans, it's ensuring our finances are in order Are you seriously suggesting an ex Swiss banker with a history of running profitable companies and dealing with mega sums of money might know more about business finance than a load of message board keyboard commandos? Have a word with yourself:rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 Are you seriously suggesting an ex Swiss banker with a history of running profitable companies and dealing with mega sums of money might know more about business finance than a load of message board keyboard commandos? Have a word with yourself:rolleyes: When you put it like that...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 Are you seriously suggesting an ex Swiss banker with a history of running profitable companies and dealing with mega sums of money might know more about business finance than a load of message board keyboard commandos? Have a word with yourself:rolleyes: Doesn't mean we shouldn't question it though, especially given previous comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonManager Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 Doesn't mean we shouldn't question it though, especially given previous comments. Come on you, off to beddy byes, there's parchment and squid ink to be sold to the Empire in the morrow, and we're all depending on you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 Are you seriously suggesting an ex Swiss banker with a history of running profitable companies and dealing with mega sums of money might know more about business finance than a load of message board keyboard commandos? Have a word with yourself:rolleyes: I think you miss the point. By quite a bit. Portsmouth fans were rightly criticised for going along with their good times and not asking enough questions of where the money was coming from. There's absolutely nothing wrong in asking the same questions of ourselves; particularly when the chairman himself has previously suggested that he doesn't want/need to operate the company using money borrowed against future earnings. Yes, Cortese is a former banker and has a much better heads up on that arena than 99.99% of the population. The questions being asked are why are in we debt, why do we now need to borrow, how much have we borrowed, over what period, on what terms? Not unreasonable questions to ask IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 Yes, Cortese is a former banker and has a much better heads up on that arena than 99.99% of the population. The questions being asked are why are in we debt, why do we now need to borrow, how much have we borrowed, over what period, on what terms? Not unreasonable questions to ask IMO. The questions therefore have to be: How much clarity will we have? (I personally assume none...) How much do you trust him? (The man who introduced Markus Liebherr to Saints, oversaw consecutive promotions and has our ongoing ambitions at heart, actually, come to mention it.....) What is Nicola Cortese's motivation here? (Generally, why is this banker in charge? Markus' wishes? Why stay? Why continue? What does he have to gain? Why take this challenge?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 The questions therefore have to be: How much clarity will we have? (I personally assume none...) How much do you trust him? (The man who introduced Markus Liebherr to Saints, oversaw consecutive promotions and has our ongoing ambitions at heart, actually, come to mention it.....) What is Nicola Cortese's motivation here? (Generally, why is this banker in charge? Markus' wishes? Why stay? Why continue? What does he have to gain? Why take this challenge?) Well those would be interesting to know, but I'd imagine far less likely than finding out the terms of this loan. Everton's loan details (supposedly from a similar source to ours) were leaked/got out so its not a huge area of secrecy. I doubt we'll ever find out the full details; though if minimal details can be unearthed then the questioning will absolutely be worth it. I'd rather ask questions for myself than stick my head in the sand and assume our former banker chairman knows what he's doing 100% of the time and doesn't ever make any mistakes or ever act in ways which are damaging to the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopGun Posted 4 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 4 November, 2012 Clearly if NC is in it for personal gain, he'd probably still be better off as a banker in Switzerland. So that's probably not the reason. Although he obviously has a very healthy salary and shares in the company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huffton Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 Doesn't mean we shouldn't question it though, especially given previous comments. Re-read the comments you posted. It says he 'would like to get to', not 'we are in'. Given that we are ahead in the 5 year promotion plan its fair to expect we are also ahead of ourselves in our financial forecasts. Like others have pointed out on the original thread its perfectly normal business practice to release cash by taking a tax efficent loan rather than blowing your capital. Lets wit for the accounts to be published before we get too uptight. Cortese might be a see you next tuesday, but he's a clever see you next tuesday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Marco Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 Does anyone really give a ****? We borrowed money when we were last in the prem and we are probably borrowing money now. I won't sleep at night that's for sure! Isn't Man Utd like 500m in debt? Everybody owes someone. Except Turdish of course. he is as clean as clean get's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 Clearly if NC is in it for personal gain, he'd probably still be better off as a banker in Switzerland. So that's probably not the reason. Although he obviously has a very healthy salary and shares in the company. And a Sunseeker, a house and numerous cars all of which came part of the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 Does anyone really give a ****? We borrowed money when we were last in the prem and we are probably borrowing money now. I won't sleep at night that's for sure! Isn't Man Utd like 500m in debt? Everybody owes someone. Except Turdish of course. he is as clean as clean get's Yeah and last time we came out of the premier league we nearly went bust. Still who gives a sh*t? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 Re-read the comments you posted. It says he 'would like to get to', not 'we are in'. Given that we are ahead in the 5 year promotion plan its fair to expect we are also ahead of ourselves in our financial forecasts. Like others have pointed out on the original thread its perfectly normal business practice to release cash by taking a tax efficent loan rather than blowing your capital. Lets wit for the accounts to be published before we get too uptight. Cortese might be a see you next tuesday, but he's a clever see you next tuesday. And the bit about spending money which is due to come in years ahead. Which is exactly what we are doing now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 I think you miss the point. By quite a bit. Portsmouth fans were rightly criticised for going along with their good times and not asking enough questions of where the money was coming from. There's absolutely nothing wrong in asking the same questions of ourselves; particularly when the chairman himself has previously suggested that he doesn't want/need to operate the company using money borrowed against future earnings. Yes, Cortese is a former banker and has a much better heads up on that arena than 99.99% of the population. The questions being asked are why are in we debt, why do we now need to borrow, how much have we borrowed, over what period, on what terms? Not unreasonable questions to ask IMO. Indeed. I think we all share the same level of curiosity (more or less). The difference comes when some jump to one conclusion and others another. I'm in the "hmm, this is slightly curious, I wonder what all this is about, let's wait and see" camp. Less "head in sand" more "sit on the fence". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 And the bit about spending money which is due to come in years ahead. Which is exactly what we are doing now. You know more about this loan than I do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_clark Posted 4 November, 2012 Share Posted 4 November, 2012 The skates have been telling us we're in upwards of £30million debt since the day Markus bought the club, I wouldn't start applauding them for their insight now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowgli Posted 5 November, 2012 Share Posted 5 November, 2012 And the bit about spending money which is due to come in years ahead. Which is exactly what we are doing now. But you really don't know we are borrowing against future income. You don't know the size of the loan. You don't know the terms. In fact you know sweet fa. There's a world of difference to securing loans against future income and good cash flow against certain income in the current season. Good businessmen will know how to borrow and lend money in a way that gives a financial benefit. It's how banks survive. Now, tell me again, what is Nicola's background? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jam Posted 5 November, 2012 Share Posted 5 November, 2012 But you really don't know we are borrowing against future income. You don't know the size of the loan. You don't know the terms. In fact you know sweet fa. There's a world of difference to securing loans against future income and good cash flow against certain income in the current season. Good businessmen will know how to borrow and lend money in a way that gives a financial benefit. It's how banks survive. Now, tell me again, what is Nicola's background? This is so funny it's untrue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 5 November, 2012 Share Posted 5 November, 2012 This is so funny it's untrue. Explain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintBobby Posted 5 November, 2012 Share Posted 5 November, 2012 I have no more data than most. But, here's a thought. We're going to treat major purchase as capital purchases, which we may have to get rid of at a loss. So, rather than writing a cheque for £12m for Ramirez, you borrow the cash. Assuming that we either stay up - hurrah! - or offload him for say, £9m, if we go down. My worry would be if we can't cover that £3m gap - not if we borrowed the money to buy Ramirez. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niceandfriendly Posted 5 November, 2012 Share Posted 5 November, 2012 And the bit about spending money which is due to come in years ahead. Which is exactly what we are doing now. You iz propa ITK mush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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