david in sweden Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 (edited) I'm aware that there are several generations coming on this site and for some their history with the Saints may only have started 2-3 years ago, and they are only used to watching a winning side. As a fan of over 50 years, I (and many others) have seen many ups-and-downs and apart from the occasional bright spots (1976, 1978 and the early 1980's in particular) most of those " historic 27 seasons " in the top division were spent fighting off relegation - often by the skin of our teeth. The factor that produces a successful club in the Prem. is either ...lots and lots of money ...or lots of ..continuity and patience. Until the last 3 years we went through a period without much of either. Many of us overjoyed at our double-promotions realised that the gap between the top of the Championship..... and the bottom end of the Prem. is much greater than the 3 places vacated by last season's relegated clubs. Few of us, even Nigel Adkins (last season's hero and to some already the villian - even before the pantomime season begins), realised that so many of that successful squad weren't going to cut it in the Prem. and we missed the boat on some transfer targets that we might have had. Nicola Cortese's promise dream of Premier League in 5 years came to early fruition ...and it's certain that his new vision of Euro football certainly won't be achieved with so many of the existing players. For those older fans with short memories, and the others with short tempers, here's quick look back at some history during the last 20 years. To say that we have traditionally been poor starters... is an understatement to say the least..these stats. cover some of the many poor starts (in the first 8-10 games) of the following seasons. Season...W--D--L.........(goals) F-A 1990-91..2--2--4.....................11-15 91-92.....1--2--5...................... 8-14 92-93.....1--4--4.......................7-11 93-94.....1--0--8.......................7-15 95-96.....1--3--6.......................9-19 96-97.....1--3--5.....................11-13 97-98.....1--1--7.......................5-17 98-99.....0--2--7.......................4-22 99-00.....3--2--5.....................17-21 2000-01..2--4--3.....................12-13 01-02....2--1--6......................8-17 02-03....2--4--3......................6 -8 Some will say-but what has that got to do with our poor start now?....aside from the fact that 7 of our 9 games so far... have been against sides in the top half of the division? It's not just Saints...many newly-promoted clubs suffer the same fate, and are soon relegated. Remember Derby a few years back. The challenge for newly-promoted sides to the Prem. is far greater than anyone can imagine. 2011 runaway winners QPR only just survived, and Norwich are little better than we are so far this. During this period we had (if I'm correct 9 different managers)....few of whom had previously managed at the top level ...(can't count how many new players)..and we moved to a new stadium. There were (as far as I can see)..only two common factors covering the whole period (1) one player ...MLT and (2).... .in none of these seasons (above) were we relegated. We don't (at present) have an MLT, and our greatest achievement this season will surely be (as those listed above) to survive another season. Edited 31 October, 2012 by david in sweden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 The usual patronising garbage from David, I see. And wrong as well - unless you want to go into detail about MLT's supposed on field contributions in the SMS era in the 2000s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corky morris Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 The Southampton way is to go out & score goals. We have always conceded loads, but we have attacking players who know how to score. This season we appear to have given that up. Last year we went at teams, attacked them. Used the wings. This year we seem to have forgotten all that. When Adkins says we had 3 attacking players on last night he tries to justify his selection, but forgets that they are playing out of position. Its the switch from a system that was working with some in built flxibility to a system that clearly is not without any explanation or justification. Yep all the big teams play some kind of fluid 4-5-1, 4-3-3 formation (actually Man Utd often play 4-4-2) But we are not Barcelona & the idea that we can go from a League 1 club to a Chamions League iutfit in a little over 13 months is plain stupid. Some of us have been following for a long time & can see that there is something seriously wrong at Saints at the moment. We have seen it before. The change from last year is quite remarkable!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 It's not a question of having a short memory, it's a question of having enough quality players in the group to make results dependant on something other than the fallibility of the weakest links. We currently have about 30 players available to us, I'd estimate that only 5 or 6 of them are really good enough to achieve decent results and the rest will always let them down so no matter how well those 5 or 6 players play the results will probably never show what they've done. When that happens disillusion sets in and phone calls to agents start. Expect a mass exodus in January if we're tailed off beyond recovery because certain won't want a relegation on their CVs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 31 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 31 October, 2012 The usual patronising garbage from David, I see. And wrong as well - unless you want to go into detail about MLT's supposed on field contributions in the SMS era in the 2000s I expected you to correct my punctuation CB (!)....but of course I should have said MLT ...for most of the time. However, the stats. are there for all to see and it's clear that many fans' expectations are far from the reality of Premier League football, but thanks for your (patronising) contribution all the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 31 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 31 October, 2012 (edited) Some of us have been following for a long time & can see that there is something seriously wrong at Saints at the moment. We have seen it before. The change from last year is quite remarkable!! I think the real lesson to learn is that you can never anticipate how you think a promoted side will perform based on the previous seasons results, especially when moving up to the Prem. We're not alone with that problem, and it's not unusual to see at least 2 of the previously-promoted sides go down within 2 seasons...... Edited 31 October, 2012 by david in sweden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
for_heaven's_Saint Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 Tl;dr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red&white56 Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 Thanks David, Those who never learn from the past are destined to repeat it, that could be us this season. For me the club I look at is Stoke - they were pretty rubbish but have survived in the PL - survivied with many ex-Saints players! I think, and it's just my opinion, that the manager is as important as the players - Pullis for example, Sam at WHU as another prove my point and I would like to give NA at least until end of November before drawing any conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 The usual patronising garbage from David, I see. And wrong as well - unless you want to go into detail about MLT's supposed on field contributions in the SMS era in the 2000s Yep, very bored of reading variations on the "where we were 3 years ago", "promoted to the PL ahead of schedule", "look at our starting fixture list" themes. The last one is particularly crap, seeing as we gave the Manchesters a run for their money early on and are now being d*cked by 3 goals by Championship sides... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 31 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 31 October, 2012 Yep, very bored of reading variations on the "where we were 3 years ago", "promoted to the PL ahead of schedule", "look at our starting fixture list" themes. The last one is particularly crap, seeing as we gave the Manchesters a run for their money early on and are now being d*cked by 3 goals by Championship sides... surprising response from a fan like you, Alpine, Look closer.... 4 of that "crap" that played last night also started the opening game v.Man City... but it was only the introduction of Lambert and Steven Davis that made that score look respectable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 I don't care what happened in 1994 or what fergie done When a manger has run his course and/or is not up to the current job. Not a great deal more can be done than give someone else a go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 Actually David last night as I was listening to the Leeds game I thought this just like the good old days crap in the league and knocked out of the cup by a lower league team just how I remember it being last time we were in the top flight... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidthesquid Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 The point is we have a talented young manager and a talented young team - what they both lack is experience of the harsh world of the Prem. BUT they are all getting that pretty quick at the moment and they are learning, but it doesn't happen overnight. Fortunately for us there are 8 teams that have won 7 games between them at the bottom, so we are far from cut adrift. Personally I still believe that with one or two additions we are capable of making a go of it in this league and the worse thing to do now is panic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintDan Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 I think that the opening post talks a lot of sense, the expectations have been set very high from our previous 3 seasons and I remember many seasons being in the Premier League coming home far more disappointed than I have this season (Aston Villa games used to be a major disappointment with a 4-1 Dion Dublin riot and 1-0 defeat in a rain soden Dell particularly standing out in the memory). The facts are we are inexperienced and Nigel has started to lose his positive edge but we may as well stick with it and push on there are 5 other teams in the same boat as us 3 of which we have coming up in the next six weeks or so (QPR, Norwich & Reading) plus there's also Swansea who we play in 2 weeks. I agree that it is time to accept relegation if we can't pick up 6/7 points from 9 in those 3 key games but up until now I dont actually think it's been that bad with only the Wigan loss and the nature of the Arsenal and West Ham losses being the most significant factors leading to fans doom and gloom. We have shown that we can hold our own in this league particularly with 30 mins against Utd, the second half against Villa and the first half against Fulham. We all knew it was going to be tough! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 I think one of the big mistakes we made this year was to think we would be able to make the massive step up, then keep the ball by passing it around in our own half against such opposition. We need variation, the best team have no problems in hitting 30 yd through balls or putting in loads of crosses. Let's get back to playing the way we can and start by raising the tempo and pressurising the opposition then getting the ball up to the front runners quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan The Flames Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 Yep, very bored of reading variations on the "where we were 3 years ago", "promoted to the PL ahead of schedule", "look at our starting fixture list" themes. The last one is particularly crap, seeing as we gave the Manchesters a run for their money early on and are now being d*cked by 3 goals by Championship sides... Do you make it your lifes goal to misinterpret every OP. On another matter you are always calling for change, when have you ever held your nerve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 If the OP thinks that unearthing two years in twelve when we were worst off than we are now, but subsequently avoided relegation, is supposed to fill one with a sense of wild optimism then he's very much mistaken. We don't need to go all the way back to the last century for evidence because the best comparison is surely the last time we in this division during the 2004/5 season. The record shows we were actually a point better off that season after 9 games, and Antti Niemi had 'only' been beaten a mere 12 times - compare that to the avalanche of goals we've hemorrhaged this season. Drawing comparisons between Steve Wigley and Nigel Adkins is very difficult because they came to Premier League management via very different routes. Few would say (myself included) that Adkins didn't deserve his chance this season, while Wigley was not qualified for the job and shouldn't never have been appointed after Sturrock's mysterious departure. Well after 14 games (and just one win) even Rupert was forced to agree with the vast majority of Saints fans that Wigley had to go - the correct decision taken perhaps a month too late many would say. Will the equally hapless Adkins last until December? 'I don't know' is the only honest answer I can give you, but it seems to me he's rapidly running out of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ART Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 The difference dear David, is then we had little in the way of finance to make a difference back then.. Today we have just wasted close to 30 million and are no better off or nearer to resolving our dilemma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 1 November, 2012 Author Share Posted 1 November, 2012 If the OP thinks that unearthing two years in twelve when we were worst off than we are now, but subsequently avoided relegation, is supposed to fill one with a sense of wild optimism then he's very much mistaken. Will the equally hapless Adkins last until December? 'I don't know' is the only honest answer I can give you, but it seems to me he's rapidly running out of time. I wasn't suggesting we had a normal or even abnormal start....purely pointing out to some of the contributors that such catastrophic starts do not necessarily mean we will be relegated in May. Very many of the newly-promoted sides suffer a similar fate every season. I'm sure the same case could be made for several other sides. The skill gap between the NPC and Prem....is enormous and unfortunately many people at the club misjudged the ability of some of our key players when moving up to the top division. Having looked so capable last season, it may have been easily done. I am not filled with a wild sense of optimism (your words).and regardless of who is manager in January, we have a better financial position now than we had in ANY of those seasons quoted in the OP. when we did survive. Whether or not the £30 million was wasted or not (as someone else said)...remains to be seen, but I've no doubt that we will spend quite a bit (though perhaps not as much) in the next transfer window - as Cortese surely realises that survival in the Prem. means an income of between £60-90 million - so a few million more is only safeguarding the investment. I was not drawing any comfort from finding three seasons where we had a worse start, merely trying to point out that bad starts aren't necessarily the death knell of a club who have resources to get out of jail ..by the end of the season. I expect a total turnover of the squad after New Year and very much doubt if even half of the existing side will start the last game of the season....by which time I hope we will have secured survival to next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Diamond Posted 1 November, 2012 Share Posted 1 November, 2012 More full stops. Brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted 1 November, 2012 Share Posted 1 November, 2012 I think one of the big mistakes we made this year was to think we would be able to make the massive step up, then keep the ball by passing it around in our own half against such opposition. We need variation, the best team have no problems in hitting 30 yd through balls or putting in loads of crosses. Let's get back to playing the way we can and start by raising the tempo and pressurising the opposition then getting the ball up to the front runners quickly. Strachan called it 'propoganda football'. Incidentally, we may not be as tippy tappy as some think. According to stats read out on Talksport, only 3 teams have played more long balls than us. 2 of them being Stoke and West Ham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted 1 November, 2012 Share Posted 1 November, 2012 If the OP thinks that unearthing two years in twelve when we were worst off than we are now, but subsequently avoided relegation, is supposed to fill one with a sense of wild optimism then he's very much mistaken. We don't need to go all the way back to the last century for evidence because the best comparison is surely the last time we in this division during the 2004/5 season. The record shows we were actually a point better off that season after 9 games, and Antti Niemi had 'only' been beaten a mere 12 times - compare that to the avalanche of goals we've hemorrhaged this season. Drawing comparisons between Steve Wigley and Nigel Adkins is very difficult because they came to Premier League management via very different routes. Few would say (myself included) that Adkins didn't deserve his chance this season, while Wigley was not qualified for the job and shouldn't never have been appointed after Sturrock's mysterious departure. Well after 14 games (and just one win) even Rupert was forced to agree with the vast majority of Saints fans that Wigley had to go - the correct decision taken perhaps a month too late many would say. Will the equally hapless Adkins last until December? 'I don't know' is the only honest answer I can give you, but it seems to me he's rapidly running out of time. Too right it was. He left him in charge because we had a run of winnable games coming up, and unsurprisingly, we ended up spunking loads of points. There were also quite a few people posting their support for him (I think on the old Saintsforever site). I do see parallels between then and now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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