shirleysfc Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 It'd be interesting to know what input Reed has in the other areas. Considering some on this thread doesn't make decisions on recruitment, i wonder if the same applies to the academy, medicine and administration departments. True. If one of the academy physios makes a balls up does the buck stop with Reed? I know we have a transfer committee which both Reed and Adkins are part of it, but is it fair to assume the committee make decsions based on reports from the following: Senior Recruitment Officer - Bill Green Scouting & Recruitment Manager - Paul Mitchell Performance Analyst (Academy) - Natasha Patel Research Analyst (Recruitment) - Ian Torrance Research Analyst (Performance) - Scott Waters Scouting Administrator - Emily Webb Performance Analyst - Tom Stockwell Youth Recruitment Officer - Rod Ruddick Academy Recruitment Scout - Chris Welman Analyst - Stephen Corns Head Analyst - Andrew Stone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 No I would suggest poor defensive coaching and an insistance of Zonal marking were to blame here, perhaps along with a lack of a decent LB. Fair enough if that's your view. My view is that you can't polish a turd. And that a better executed transfer policy would have seen us focus on strengthening the defensive personnel with more and better recruits, which would have fared much better than the current incumbents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 Good question. The Scouting and Recruitment department is part of the Football Development and Support Centre. Les Reed is the executive director of the centre so the buck stops with him. For the record here is a list of all the people that report to Les (taken from http://www.saintsfc.co.uk): Administration Manager/PA - Vicki Crossley Elite Under 21 Coach - Martin Hunter Under 18 Youth Coach - Jason Dodd Development Goalkeeping Coach - Vince Bartram International Football Development Manager - Radhi Jaidi Scouting & Recruitment Department Senior Recruitment Officer - Bill Green Scouting & Recruitment Manager - Paul Mitchell Performance Analyst (Academy) - Natasha Patel Research Analyst (Recruitment) - Ian Torrance Research Analyst (Performance) - Scott Waters Scouting Administrator - Emily Webb Performance Analyst - Tom Stockwell Youth Recruitment Officer - Rod Ruddick Academy Recruitment Scout - Chris Welman Analyst - Stephen Corns Head Analyst - Andrew Stone Academy Academy Manager - Matt Crocker Academy Administrator - Derek Old Assistant Academy Manager - Terry Moore Under 14 Youth Coach - Anthony Limbrick Under 16 Youth Coach - Steven Greaves Professional Development Coach - Paul Williams Academy Liaison Officer - Kirsty Cavanagh Academy Teacher - Toby Redwood Academy Goalkeeping Coach - Ryan Flood Assistant Foundation Coach - Andy Marks Assistant Youth Development Coach - Graeme Murty Academy Mini Bus Driver - Paul Beazley Bath Academy Development Coordinator - Matt Hale Education & Life Skills Manager - Julie Batchelor Kit & Equipment Manager - Ron Arthur Laundry Assistant - Denise Bullock Sports Medicine & Science Sports Medicine & Science Manager - Mo Gimpel Academy Physio - Mal Godschalik Assistant Academy Physio - Steven Sparks Pro. Players Physio - Emma Gimpel Physiotherapist - Tom Sturdy GPS Analyst & FDSC Sports Science Assistant - Ben Rosen Athletic Development Manager - James Bunce Academy S&C Coach - Mark Armitage Academy S&C Coach 9-16 - Jon Fortescue So, if Paul loses the minibus keys or Denise doesn't put enough fabric conditioner in with the players' socks you know whose fault it is... yep, our Les! So no one on the first team staff reports to Reed, is that right ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 31 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 31 October, 2012 True. If one of the academy physios makes a balls up does the buck stop with Reed? I know we have a transfer committee which both Reed and Adkins are part of it, but is it fair to assume the committee make decsions based on reports from the following: Senior Recruitment Officer - Bill Green Scouting & Recruitment Manager - Paul Mitchell Performance Analyst (Academy) - Natasha Patel Research Analyst (Recruitment) - Ian Torrance Research Analyst (Performance) - Scott Waters Scouting Administrator - Emily Webb Performance Analyst - Tom Stockwell Youth Recruitment Officer - Rod Ruddick Academy Recruitment Scout - Chris Welman Analyst - Stephen Corns Head Analyst - Andrew Stone This cant be true. Paul Mitchell is Scouting and Recruitment Manager as MLG pointed out. Reed will delegate to him surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 Moyes saved Everton from relegation in his first quarter season there, he then had a very respectable first full season where Everton qualified for the UEFA or something. After that he had troubles with knob players who were there when he arrived but as he dealt with them in a typical Glaswegian manner and not the kind of nicey-nicey way that you'd imagine Adkins using, he eventually imposed his will and turned them around. The rest is history. The real point being that he was good from the gun in the PL and knobbish players couldn't change that. Ok windows thanks for the info or whatever! So we're looking for a manager who was good in lower leagues, started off a bit sh!t in the PL but then went on to become top manager. He can be our go-to guy for sticking with adkins analogies. I can't think of no-one tho! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 Fair enough if that's your view. My view is that you can't polish a turd. And that a better executed transfer policy would have seen us focus on strengthening the defensive personnel with more and better recruits, which would have fared much better than the current incumbents. Somehow I cant see how having the 3rd best defence in the league last year and just how horrific it is this year equates ? Im not having a pop, and they are not great, but surely to christ you can educate them better than they are playing atm. Look at some of our defending, its absolute basics !! Its not helped by the cavalier approach we take to games either because as a team we are not good enough defensively Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 Good question. The Scouting and Recruitment department is part of the Football Development and Support Centre. Les Reed is the executive director of the centre so the buck stops with him. For the record here is a list of all the people that report to Les (taken from http://www.saintsfc.co.uk): Administration Manager/PA - Vicki Crossley Elite Under 21 Coach - Martin Hunter Under 18 Youth Coach - Jason Dodd Development Goalkeeping Coach - Vince Bartram International Football Development Manager - Radhi Jaidi Scouting & Recruitment Department Senior Recruitment Officer - Bill Green Scouting & Recruitment Manager - Paul Mitchell Performance Analyst (Academy) - Natasha Patel Research Analyst (Recruitment) - Ian Torrance Research Analyst (Performance) - Scott Waters Scouting Administrator - Emily Webb Performance Analyst - Tom Stockwell Youth Recruitment Officer - Rod Ruddick Academy Recruitment Scout - Chris Welman Analyst - Stephen Corns Head Analyst - Andrew Stone Academy Academy Manager - Matt Crocker Academy Administrator - Derek Old Assistant Academy Manager - Terry Moore Under 14 Youth Coach - Anthony Limbrick Under 16 Youth Coach - Steven Greaves Professional Development Coach - Paul Williams Academy Liaison Officer - Kirsty Cavanagh Academy Teacher - Toby Redwood Academy Goalkeeping Coach - Ryan Flood Assistant Foundation Coach - Andy Marks Assistant Youth Development Coach - Graeme Murty Academy Mini Bus Driver - Paul Beazley Bath Academy Development Coordinator - Matt Hale Education & Life Skills Manager - Julie Batchelor Kit & Equipment Manager - Ron Arthur Laundry Assistant - Denise Bullock Sports Medicine & Science Sports Medicine & Science Manager - Mo Gimpel Academy Physio - Mal Godschalik Assistant Academy Physio - Steven Sparks Pro. Players Physio - Emma Gimpel Physiotherapist - Tom Sturdy GPS Analyst & FDSC Sports Science Assistant - Ben Rosen Athletic Development Manager - James Bunce Academy S&C Coach - Mark Armitage Academy S&C Coach 9-16 - Jon Fortescue So, if Paul loses the minibus keys or Denise doesn't put enough fabric conditioner in with the players' socks you know whose fault it is... yep, our Les! Totally off topic but I love Radhi's Job title ...sounds so cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 Somehow I cant see how having the 3rd best defence in the league last year and just how horrific it is this year equates ? Im not having a pop, and they are not great, but surely to christ you can educate them better than they are playing atm. Look at some of our defending, its absolute basics !! Its not helped by the cavalier approach we take to games either because as a team we are not good enough defensively Because the Championship was their ability level. Yep, they're making individual errors and the coaching would seem somwhat awry, but this is nothing new. They were making the same errors last season; they just got punished for them less. Dan Fox could have the most coaching available and I would still maintain that he cannot defend adequately for this league. The same for Jos Hooiveld who looks like a deer in the headlights at this level. Coaching will improve them but it will not turn them into PL defenders IMO; we needed a wholesale change of personnel and we got barely half that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirleysfc Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 This cant be true. Paul Mitchell is Scouting and Recruitment Manager as MLG pointed out. Reed will delegate to him surely? I think the point MLG is making is that the committee acts on the advise of the recruitment department (of which Les Reed isn't a member of, but is the Executive Director responsible for) rather than actually scouting the players themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirleysfc Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 So no one on the first team staff reports to Reed, is that right ? Not according to the OS, others may know differently though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 Somehow I cant see how having the 3rd best defence in the league last year and just how horrific it is this year equates ? Im not having a pop, and they are not great, but surely to christ you can educate them better than they are playing atm. Look at some of our defending, its absolute basics !! Its not helped by the cavalier approach we take to games either because as a team we are not good enough defensively An adequate defence in the NPC doesn't necessarily translate into an adequate defence in the PL. If you have just one player of 4 who is able to impose himself physically over players of a lesser standard (I'm talking about Jos here) but gets cruelly shown up by top class players the difference become obvious. We were often cut to ribbons by sides with good wide men last season as well, showing that Fox was already limited in the NPC on occasions. We replaced Richardson with Clyne but I'm not at all sure that Clyne is all that much better defensively, I doubt if Frazer would have let Bale get that header in on Sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 31 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 31 October, 2012 I think the point MLG is making is that the committee acts on the advise of the recruitment department (of which Les Reed isn't a member of, but is the Executive Director responsible for) rather than actually scouting the players themselves. No one said he did scout the players himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 I think the point MLG is making is that the committee acts on the advise of the recruitment department (of which Les Reed isn't a member of, but is the Executive Director responsible for) rather than actually scouting the players themselves. Of course it does. The recruitment department do the legwork; the committee of 4 make the decisions, and Cortese has the final sign off. Claiming Reed doesn't make any decisions and only provides advice was a nonsensical suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 Because the Championship was their ability level. Yep, they're making individual errors and the coaching would seem somwhat awry, but this is nothing new. They were making the same errors last season; they just got punished for them less. Dan Fox could have the most coaching available and I would still maintain that he cannot defend adequately for this league. The same for Jos Hooiveld who looks like a deer in the headlights at this level. Coaching will improve them but it will not turn them into PL defenders IMO; we needed a wholesale change of personnel and we got barely half that. True but right now you can only do what you can do, and change what you can change. For me thats Maya and not Jos and potentially TRY to sort out the LB position. We looked at CBs and LBs in the summer, for whatever reason it didnt happen, was it Adkins ? Reed ? Cortese ? We dont know, it could have been any of the above, I would have liked better options but would it have helped ? We dont know either. All I am saying is we could easily go out now and tap up some staff with A. Working knowledge of the prem and B. And decent defensive coaching background. Either that or try not to play so open in the knowledge our defence is so **** !! That said though we are getting hammered mainly down the wing or from set pieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirleysfc Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 No one said he did scout the players himself. Is it fair to assume the Scouting & Recruitment Department find players and put them forward or recommend them to our transfer committee? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 Of course it does. The recruitment department do the legwork; the committee of 4 make the decisions, and Cortese has the final sign off. Claiming Reed doesn't make any decisions and only provides advice was a nonsensical suggestion. I agree with this, but to say he alone takes sole responsibility is equally as nonsensical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docker-p Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 What the hell Reed is doing anywhere near SMS is a mystery. He spent his entire playing career in non-league, his coaching career has been at the FA working with schools, again at non-league clubs, and of course at Charlton Atheltic (the Big time), where if he ever shows his face again will need police protection from the Charlton fans. That he now sits on the board at SMS beggars belief. That he has anything do with the way we play or the players we sign is a astonishing. Yet another example that not only is Cortese a sociopath but doesn't know what he is doing I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 31 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 31 October, 2012 Is it fair to assume the Scouting & Recruitment Department find players and put them forward or recommend them to our transfer committee? I think it's fair to assume that is the case. However, as Director of the recruitment department, would it also be fair to say Reed has an input into where and who the scouts go to scout? I dont for one minute think Paul Mitchell suddenly decides he wants to go and watch centre halves in Spain and off he goes for example. We aren't really clarifying his role. Other than that he's a director of a department where he delegates the leg work, which is fair enough as a director and then sits on a comittee who decide which players to persue. It sounds to me like a fairly cushy number if this is his only involvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirleysfc Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 Of course it does. The recruitment department do the legwork; the committee of 4 make the decisions, and Cortese has the final sign off. Claiming Reed doesn't make any decisions and only provides advice was a nonsensical suggestion. Ok, so if we sign a dud whose fault is it: The recruitment department for recommending the player? The committee for acting on the advise of the recuitment department? Cortese for signing the cheque? Les Reed as the Executive Director of the football Development and Support Centre? Guly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 True but right now you can only do what you can do, and change what you can change. For me thats Maya and not Jos and potentially TRY to sort out the LB position. We looked at CBs and LBs in the summer, for whatever reason it didnt happen, was it Adkins ? Reed ? Cortese ? We dont know, it could have been any of the above, I would have liked better options but would it have helped ? We dont know either. All I am saying is we could easily go out now and tap up some staff with A. Working knowledge of the prem and B. And decent defensive coaching background. Either that or try not to play so open in the knowledge our defence is so **** !! That said though we are getting hammered mainly down the wing or from set pieces. Indeed. And I've previously said before I hold Adkins somewhat to blame for poor tactics and substitutions. Hooiveld shouldn't be anywhere near the first team; Yoshida shouldn't be anywhere but central defence. The midfield should be a proper midfield 3, not with Lallana floating about doing his own thing. Mayuka should be playing instead of Puncheon to give us a proper outlet. Lallana needs to work out how to defend better with Fox, Fox equally needs to learn how to properly use Lallana and his CMs. Right now I couldn't care less exactly why we haven't got the players the manager said he needed. The fact is we failed in that regard, and we don't have them. So we need a as settled a back line as possible until we can bring in reinforcements; and bring them in we absolutely must. A dominant, commanding centre half who will organise the back line, and a left back who can actually defend. I think we're fairly on the same page here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 I agree with this, but to say he alone takes sole responsibility is equally as nonsensical. Agreed; who has said that Reed alone takes sole responsibility though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 Ok, so if we sign a dud whose fault is it: The recruitment department for recommending the player? The committee for acting on the advise of the recuitment department? Cortese for signing the cheque? Les Reed as the Executive Director of the football Development and Support Centre? Guly? Ultimately its those who made the decision to sign him. The final decision rests with Cortese; he holds some of the blame. Whoever convinces Cortese to sign the dud must also take a fair share of the blame. The question is; who has the most influence on the transfer committee? As they're the ones to point the finger at. I genuinely think Adkins has relatively little influence other than highlighting positions he needs to fill. It may be true or it may not, but right now its what I choose to believe; backed up in a small way by at least two or three posters on here claiming that Adkins submitted a list of potential signings he wanted this summer and got none of them. Also the Ramirez transfer was clearly nothing of Adkins' doing; he barely knew about it or the player in the saga's infancy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 Chris? So lets just get this straight, He is director of the recruitment department, but does actually recruit, he is part of the management line so the head of recruitment does the recruitment, then Cortese oversees everything. So other than delegate what does Reed do in the recruitment department that he is director of? It sounds like a great job to me. Sorry, somebody said you were Chris Finch, I must've misunderstood. He's definitely part of a failing process, but by your rationale he would be equally responsible for not coaching our defence properly as that's on the list too, or for the kits being right or the sports science. Like I said in my original post, he may be the root of the mistake, all too often in business it's people at his level that avoid blame while others below them get sacked too, but you haven't given enough reason to be as emphatic as you are. You seem to be spending more and more time on here, pretty much dominating every thread these days, hope your home and work life aren't suffering. Don't forget it's just a mong/spazzboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 That's an extremely simplistic approach. Is it b*ll*cks. If he doesnt like it (and how can he, taking the brunt of the fans ire, the massive criticism in the sporting media, etc.), he can say so to Batman and Robin, and if he doesnt like the response, he can quit and be in another job in the Championship, where his track record is second-to-none, in about the time it takes for me to have a dump. Which suggests to me its all down to him, to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 Is it b*ll*cks. If he doesnt like it (and how can he, taking the brunt of the fans ire, the massive criticism in the sporting media, etc.), he can say so to Batman and Robin, and if he doesnt like the response, he can quit and be in another job in the Championship, where his track record is second-to-none, in about the time it takes for me to have a dump. Which suggests to me its all down to him, to be honest. It is simplistic, Mr. Angry. It's weird how you get so emotive, all the time. Hope you're not like that with your kids. I do love your binary arguments though; you consistently miss all the wonderful shades of grey in between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 31 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 31 October, 2012 Sorry, somebody said you were Chris Finch, I must've misunderstood. He's definitely part of a failing process, but by your rationale he would be equally responsible for not coaching our defence properly as that's on the list too, or for the kits being right or the sports science. Like I said in my original post, he may be the root of the mistake, all too often in business it's people at his level that avoid blame while others below them get sacked too, but you haven't given enough reason to be as emphatic as you are. You seem to be spending more and more time on here, pretty much dominating every thread these days, hope your home and work life aren't suffering. Don't forget it's just a mong/spazzboard. I can assure you it isn't, thanks for the concearn though. As he says himself what he is responsible for in the interview i linked, then is it fair to say he's respsonsible for those areas when they fail? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 Indeed. And I've previously said before I hold Adkins somewhat to blame for poor tactics and substitutions. Hooiveld shouldn't be anywhere near the first team; Yoshida shouldn't be anywhere but central defence. The midfield should be a proper midfield 3, not with Lallana floating about doing his own thing. Mayuka should be playing instead of Puncheon to give us a proper outlet. Lallana needs to work out how to defend better with Fox, Fox equally needs to learn how to properly use Lallana and his CMs. Right now I couldn't care less exactly why we haven't got the players the manager said he needed. The fact is we failed in that regard, and we don't have them. So we need a as settled a back line as possible until we can bring in reinforcements; and bring them in we absolutely must. A dominant, commanding centre half who will organise the back line, and a left back who can actually defend. I think we're fairly on the same page here. Yeah I think we are about saying the same thing, you raise another point though... In the knowledge that Fox cant defend why play a player infront of him in what seems like a free role ? Dont get me wrong the boy has plenty of energy but just cannot defend for toffee, for instance that goal away to pompey last year was effectively his man ! As per the point below, I thought that was Turks arguement ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilippineSaint Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 Ok windows thanks for the info or whatever! So we're looking for a manager who was good in lower leagues, started off a bit sh!t in the PL but then went on to become top manager. He can be our go-to guy for sticking with adkins analogies. I can't think of no-one tho! that sounds like Ferguson if scottish leagues = To lower league in England Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 31 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 31 October, 2012 Yeah I think we are about saying the same thing, you raise another point though... In the knowledge that Fox cant defend why play a player infront of him in what seems like a free role ? Dont get me wrong the boy has plenty of energy but just cannot defend for toffee, for instance that goal away to pompey last year was effectively his man ! As per the point below, I thought that was Turks arguement ? I thought we all agreed to blame that one on Guly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilippineSaint Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 (edited) Posted twice again ? Edited 31 October, 2012 by PhilippineSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 I thought we all agreed to blame that one on Guly? Personally I blamed Wotton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 It is simplistic, Mr. Angry. It's weird how you get so emotive, all the time. Hope you're not like that with your kids. I do love your binary arguments though; you consistently miss all the wonderful shades of grey in between. The second time you've said its simplistic, but you are as of yet to present any evidence as to why. Something isnt simplistic just 'cos you say so. And leave my family out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 Yeah I think we are about saying the same thing, you raise another point though... In the knowledge that Fox cant defend why play a player infront of him in what seems like a free role ? Dont get me wrong the boy has plenty of energy but just cannot defend for toffee, for instance that goal away to pompey last year was effectively his man ! As per the point below, I thought that was Turks arguement ? I don't think we have anyone else who can play at LM. We almost need another Fox to play there, but just don't have one. Reeves is the closest we have; is he a realistic option? I'd say no, not in place of AL. As for Turkish' I wouldn't presume to speak for him, but the very first post on this thread by him says (when speaking about Redd) "It's my view that this man is equally, if not moreso responsible for the problems at this club as Adkins." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 The second time you've said its simplistic, but you are as of yet to present any evidence as to why. Something isnt simplistic just 'cos you say so. And leave my family out of it. Its simplistic because you look to blame 1 individual, 100%. You fail to recognise that we have a transfer committee who, to some degree (extent unknown) take responsibility from the manager for incoming player recruitment. That the manager identified targets of his own in the summer and didn't get them. And that Adkin's only option if he doesn't like it is to walk. Adkins is somewhat to blame for our malaise. As is Reed. As is Cortese, and others. To what exact degree, who knows, but they're all culpable. Solely blaming Adkins is too simplistic. There you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 Its simplistic because you look to blame 1 individual, 100%. You fail to recognise that we have a transfer committee who, to some degree (extent unknown) take responsibility from the manager for incoming player recruitment. That the manager identified targets of his own in the summer and didn't get them. And that Adkin's only option if he doesn't like it is to walk. Adkins is somewhat to blame for our malaise. As is Reed. As is Cortese, and others. To what exact degree, who knows, but they're all culpable. Solely blaming Adkins is too simplistic. There you go. Ah, so basically very close to what I wrote, but with a pedantic twist. Righty-ho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjii Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 "I read a book a week"... From Wiki, some of this is uncanny (see bold underlined).... Finch is an outside sales representative for the paper merchant Wernham Hogg, in whose Slough office the show is set, and as such is frequently on the road. He is probably the only character in the series who is genuinely cruel and occasionally turns up at the office, and when he does, the boss David Brent (read, "Docker-p") is ecstatic because, in his opinion, "Finchy" is a wonderfully charismatic wag who is constantly coming up with terribly witty remarks and rapid-fire repartee. When Brent's face is pasted on a pornographic image, he is upset with the prank until he learns it was the work of Chris Finch, at which point Brent rapidly changes course and claims to find the joke funny, even refusing to apologize for reprimanding other employees who laughed at the joke. David describes him as his "best friend" but actually acts more like a lackey, laughing at his jokes and attempting to ride his coat-tails into the limelight. Finch repays him with disdain. To most other people in the office, however, Chris Finch is just a rather obnoxious, arrogant and sexist loudmouth whose jokes are crude and offensive (e.g. "What's the difference between a fox and a dog? About eight pints of lager!"). He has a natural flair in bullying others with swift, humiliating putdowns with many of his jokes directly aimed at Brent in the cruellest way imaginable. Only Gareth Keenan shares Brent's admiration for Chris Finch. Finchy also claims to be a very successful ladies' man and manages to have sex with a worker in the middle of the company car park. Finch claims to read a book a week, to have thrown a kettle over the roof of a pub in Chichester and, according to David Brent, has an IQ of 142. He comes from Yorkshire and supports Leeds United F.C. Chris Finch is also very competitive and a very bad loser. He is filled with indignant fury when he and David Brent come in second place to Tim and Ricky at the annual company Quiz Night. After the quiz ends and everyone is gathered around the pub, Finch says he can beat Tim and Ricky at 'loads of things'. He suggests a throwing contest, in which the winning team must pick something for Finch to throw over the Wernham Hogg building. If Finch does so successfully, Finch and Brent will be declared the "real winners" of the quiz. Tim and Ricky do not agree to the challenge however this doesn't seem to matter to Finch as he successfully throws Tim's shoes over the building, at which point he and Brent relish in their victory obnoxiously and take the bottle of champagne that Tim and Ricky were awarded for winning the quiz. Finch tells Tim and his quiz partner Ricky to "respect [their] elders," and "not **** with the big boys." During the end credits of The Party Finch is shown to be having sex with Trudy. At the end of part two of The Office Christmas Special, Brent finally appears to lose his starry-eyed appreciation for Finch's humour and his tolerance for Finch's bullying treatment of him; following a typically snide and coarse remark from Finch concerning his blind date by calling her "a dog", Brent tells Finch to "**** off." Visibly defeated, Finch appears to be lost for any sort of comeback once his target actually stands up to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 Ah, so basically very close to what I wrote, but with a pedantic twist. Righty-ho :lol: Its nothing like what you wrote!! I said Reed and others must share some of the blame. What was it you said? I am not going to blame Reed. NA picks the team, sets the formation, coaches the players. If we are crap, its because of him. On the off-chance the interference rumours are true, its still NAs fault for accepting this set-up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 :lol: Its nothing like what you wrote!! I said Reed and others must share some of the blame. What was it you said? You have no idea if Cortese or Reed are partly to blame or not; it is sheer speculation. And I have made it clear that if NA is tolerating that and not walking away, he deserves what he is getting. NA could also have walked away after the disastrous transfer window, if he didnt agree with its results and could see the potential consequences as we did. Nope, he could have, and still can, stop this disastrous constellation; but he chooses not to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 You have no idea if Cortese or Reed are partly to blame or not; it is sheer speculation. And I have made it clear that if NA is tolerating that and not walking away, he deserves what he is getting. NA could also have walked away after the disastrous transfer window, if he didnt agree with its results and could see the potential consequences as we did. Nope, he could have, and still can, stop this disastrous constellation; but he chooses not to. Dear me; of course it isn't speculation. Cortese and Reed have both stated that they sit on the transfer committee; Cortese has stated that he has the final say on all transfers. That isn't speculation, its fact. Your solution is to blame NA because he puts up with the situation; that he hasn't walked away makes it 100% his fault in your eyes. Lets say he had walked away and we were still in this perilous situation; who would the blame fall upon then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustMike Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 You have no idea if Cortese or Reed are partly to blame or not; it is sheer speculation. And I have made it clear that if NA is tolerating that and not walking away, he deserves what he is getting. NA could also have walked away after the disastrous transfer window, if he didnt agree with its results and could see the potential consequences as we did. Nope, he could have, and still can, stop this disastrous constellation; but he chooses not to. no he can't! If he walks away whoever comes in (if rumours are to be believed) will end up in the same boat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 Dear me; of course it isn't speculation. Cortese and Reed have both stated that they sit on the transfer committee; Cortese has stated that he has the final say on all transfers. That isn't speculation, its fact. Your solution is to blame NA because he puts up with the situation; that he hasn't walked away makes it 100% his fault in your eyes. Lets say he had walked away and we were still in this perilous situation; who would the blame fall upon then? To be fair it all depends on how the decisions are made and we don't know for sure. Every chairman at every club has the final say on who gets hired. it all depends if the signing have gone against Adkins' advice or wether they were all his idea. Only the people in on the meetings would know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 To be fair it all depends on how the decisions are made and we don't know for sure. Every chairman at every club has the final say on who gets hired. it all depends if the signing have gone against Adkins' advice or wether they were all his idea. Only the people in on the meetings would know. In which case you're free to choose how much you apportion blame to each for our predicament. I blame Adkins, Cortese, Reed and the players collectively in roughly equal measures; Adkins for tactical and selection mistakes, Cortese and Reed for what I consider a majority influence in transfers, and the players for committing heinous mistakes on the field too numerous to mention that have seen us leak goals like never before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustMike Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 In which case you're free to choose how much you apportion blame to each for our predicament. I blame Adkins, Cortese, Reed and the players collectively in roughly equal measures; Adkins for tactical and selection mistakes, Cortese and Reed for what I consider a majority influence in transfers, and the players for committing heinous mistakes on the field too numerous to mention that have seen us leak goals like never before. This! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nathan Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 "seems" "unprove" "hasnt done the best" "dont rate" well that's £24m out of the £30m that is still unproven, dont rate or not doing the best. Surely this argues my point. 8 games is not enough time to judge anyone on. I'm reserving judgement until they've played games in a settled team. But I could always make a rash statment, without fact, to suit my agenda.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 Correct Nathan, that certainly does argue your point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 In which case you're free to choose how much you apportion blame to each for our predicament. I blame Adkins, Cortese, Reed and the players collectively in roughly equal measures; Adkins for tactical and selection mistakes, Cortese and Reed for what I consider a majority influence in transfers, and the players for committing heinous mistakes on the field too numerous to mention that have seen us leak goals like never before. What no blame for the fans or saintsweb it's clearly our fault...we don't sing enough we boo our players and we're so negative Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 What no blame for the fans or saintsweb it's clearly our fault...we don't sing enough we boo our players and we're so negative Its all the Northam's fault really. Them and Guly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 What no blame for the fans or saintsweb it's clearly our fault...we don't sing enough we boo our players and we're so negative you're right, we should all be sold to Pompey as soon, as the next transfer window opens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilippineSaint Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 you're right, we should all be sold to Pompey as soon, as the next transfer window opens. How can you sell Miltonroader07 they already own his heart and soul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 31 October, 2012 Share Posted 31 October, 2012 no he can't! If he walks away whoever comes in (if rumours are to be believed) will end up in the same boat. Thats not Nigels problem though, is it ? Nigels problem currently is that (allegedly) he cant do the job as he wishes because NC and Reed have his hands tied behind his back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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