Thedelldays Posted 29 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 29 October, 2012 Seeing Lallana sprinting back into the left-back spot a few times highlighted that we don't seem to defend well as a team. Fox was obviously off marking Lennon, leaving Lallana to the marauding Kyle Walker. I'd argue we need to be clever than that; passing on players to cut that out, to minimise the need for Lallana to be sprinting all the way back from teh halfway line. That either comes from Lallana and Fox working better together, or Fox having the option to pass Lennon on to another DM if he cuts inside and track the run of Walker. Spurs exposed huge gaping holes behind our full backs (who as you say have a starting position too high up the pitch). we're succeptible to individual errors, but we do ourselves no favours with our whole tactics of defending. what you are arguing for is probably basic defending for a top 20 team.......basic. instead, we are far too open..leave 2 in the middle in either a 442, or a 433....in a 442, we had lallana and puncheon wandering inside quite a bi or getting caught out way up the pitch and constantly busting a gut to get back..when we play 433...we effectively play a 3rd attacker in the hole....madness the best we have played over 80 mins+ was against Man U....we had 3 CMs in the middle..offering more protection to the whole back 4 and being able to win/intercept the ball further away from the back 4... just my opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 29 October, 2012 Share Posted 29 October, 2012 Perhaps we are far too open but our plight would be nowhere near as bad if we were sharper in front of goal. Countless opportunities went begging again on Sunday, we can create chances with the best of them but our poor finishing lets us down. We should have won about 5-2 yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Garrett Posted 29 October, 2012 Share Posted 29 October, 2012 what you are arguing for is probably basic defending for a top 20 team.......basic. instead, we are far too open..leave 2 in the middle in either a 442, or a 433....in a 442, we had lallana and puncheon wandering inside quite a bi or getting caught out way up the pitch and constantly busting a gut to get back..when we play 433...we effectively play a 3rd attacker in the hole....madness the best we have played over 80 mins+ was against Man U....we had 3 CMs in the middle..offering more protection to the whole back 4 and being able to win/intercept the ball further away from the back 4... just my opinion... No we don't. We play with 1 (ONE) up front, with two wider midfielders who quite often come inside, and a 3rd midfielder playing in front of 2 deep lying CM's linking play with the striker. That player in the hole is very important to how we play. Whether that is Gaston, or Lallana, or someone else, thats the position where we have a player who makes something happen. Look what happened when we didn't have that player yesterday, We were totally overan and Spurs midfield had acres of room to knock the ball around and create. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 29 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 29 October, 2012 (edited) No we don't. We play with 1 (ONE) up front, with two wider midfielders who quite often come inside, and a 3rd midfielder playing in front of 2 deep lying CM's linking play with the striker. That player in the hole is very important to how we play. Whether that is Gaston, or Lallana, or someone else, thats the position where we have a player who makes something happen. Look what happened when we didn't have that player yesterday, We were totally overan and Spurs midfield had acres of room to knock the ball around and create. in the 433...we have the wide players further up the pitch.....and the 3rd CM as either lallana, lambert or Ramirez far too open having 3 of morgan, cork, davis, JWP and maybe even chaplow for many of our games will gives us a better chance of not letting in so many goals....as we are, its embarrssing and will send us down in record time having a front 4 of. Puncheon-----ramirez----lallana -----------lambert is utter madness.....the wide players go wandering and having another attacker like that is hardly giving protection to the back 4..... Edited 29 October, 2012 by Thedelldays Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Garrett Posted 29 October, 2012 Share Posted 29 October, 2012 So you're suggesting that we play 5 in the middle with no attacking threat ? I'd rather lose 3-2 than 2-0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 29 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 29 October, 2012 So you're suggesting that we play 5 in the middle with no attacking threat ? I'd rather lose 3-2 than 2-0. I would rather see the system that played for so well against Man U....we were the better team on the day and still kicking ourselves that we blew it..which suggests we offered plenty of attacking threat...should have been 3 or 4-1 up at one point.....and remained a great deal more solid...until adkins, fergie made verious subs... we wont face van persie every week and (IMO) would achieve more doing that than the utter embarrassment we are facing with record goals against... even against spurs...they could have had 5 themselves..we just allow teams so many chances.. we will always create...no matter if we have in the hole or not..we have very good forward players....we have to do something to make it tighter as this gung ho approach is simply not working Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shurlock Posted 29 October, 2012 Share Posted 29 October, 2012 I would rather see the system that played for so well against Man U....we were the better team on the day and still kicking ourselves that we blew it..which suggests we offered plenty of attacking threat...should have been 3 or 4-1 up at one point.....and remained a great deal more solid...until adkins, fergie made verious subs... we wont face van persie every week and (IMO) would achieve more doing that than the utter embarrassment we are facing with record goals against... even against spurs...they could have had 5 themselves..we just allow teams so many chances.. we will always create...no matter if we have in the hole or not..we have very good forward players....we have to do something to make it tighter as this gung ho approach is simply not working In other words, exactly the same team/system that started against Arsenal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 29 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 29 October, 2012 In other words, exactly the same team that started against Arsenal. yep.....I believe we would fair far better against west ham and spurs and co...at the min, the formation changes game by game...and we are getting dicked... there will be times when we get beat convincingly against arsenal...but at the mo, we are just embarrassing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Garrett Posted 29 October, 2012 Share Posted 29 October, 2012 If we take out the 3rd attacking midfielder though, we lose the link and the striker becomes isolated, ala Arsenal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 29 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 29 October, 2012 If we take out the 3rd attacking midfielder though, we lose the link and the striker becomes isolated, ala Arsenal. well, we will go down in record time with record goals against if we continue to try and go toe to toe with better teams.. right now, we cant even go toe to toe with west ham......its far too easy for teams... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Garrett Posted 29 October, 2012 Share Posted 29 October, 2012 We are going toe to toe with them though. You can hardly say we've been the poorer side in half these games. It's more to do with indiviual errors and concentration levels. West Ham were absolutely dreadful, but they're efficient with their tactics plus they have a lot of experience and a manager who knows how to make it hard to get beat, and score scrappy goals. We're not that kind of team. I admire the fact we're going at teams and playing the right way, I think we just have to be patient. If we go down then so be it, I'm not afraid of the NPC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 29 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 29 October, 2012 We are going toe to toe with them though. You can hardly say we've been the poorer side in half these games. It's more to do with indiviual errors and concentration levels. West Ham were absolutely dreadful, but they're efficient with their tactics plus they have a lot of experience and a manager who knows how to make it hard to get beat, and score scrappy goals. We're not that kind of team. I admire the fact we're going at teams and playing the right way, I think we just have to be patient. If we go down then so be it, I'm not afraid of the NPC. we have been poor in half of these games though.....we are on the road to going down very very quickly with the most ever goals let in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Garrett Posted 29 October, 2012 Share Posted 29 October, 2012 You really don't need to keep repeating yourself. We all know that we've let in a lot of goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 29 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 29 October, 2012 You really don't need to keep repeating yourself. We all know that we've let in a lot of goals. are you not repeating yourself.....we are going down, quickly..I thought we were discussing what better we could do to stop us letting in so man goals....and simply attacking as we are is not the asnwer IN MY OPINION Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Garrett Posted 29 October, 2012 Share Posted 29 October, 2012 Yes, but we're not very good at playing defensively. If we set out defensively, we'll probably get beat anyway and lose without scoring. Our best attribute in our team is playing football and attacking teams. Whether we strengthened in the right places is a different arguement as we needed defenders, but at the same time we didn't get them. So the best way of us not conceding with the team we have, is us keeping the ball and Ramirez is very good at this. Putting either Lallana or Ramirez out wide would just be a waste. Theyre our two most talented players with the ball at their feet so we need to give them the ball the most. They're also both pretty good at winning free kicks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 29 October, 2012 Share Posted 29 October, 2012 Yes, but we're not very good at playing defensively. If we set out defensively, we'll probably get beat anyway and lose without scoring. Our best attribute in our team is playing football and attacking teams. Whether we strengthened in the right places is a different arguement as we needed defenders, but at the same time we didn't get them. So the best way of us not conceding with the team we have, is us keeping the ball and Ramirez is very good at this. Putting either Lallana or Ramirez out wide would just be a waste. Theyre our two most talented players with the ball at their feet so we need to give them the ball the most. They're also both pretty good at winning free kicks. 7 defeats from 9, 26 goals against and 4 points on the board would suggest it really isn't. Stuary Gray got sacked with more points on the board than we've got, and he was considered an unmitigated disaster of a manager. If we're not good at playing defensively we need to bloody well learn, and quickly. Attacking teams with such cavalier abandon as we are showing is simply not working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Garrett Posted 29 October, 2012 Share Posted 29 October, 2012 Yeh, we're not good enough. Making silly errors which need cutting out. We probably would have got something from West Ham if we hadn't made the mistakes. Along with other games. As I said it's more down to concentration. Once we have a chance to put out our best team, I think we'll pick up more points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 29 October, 2012 Share Posted 29 October, 2012 7 defeats from 9, 26 goals against and 4 points on the board would suggest it really isn't. Stuary Gray got sacked with more points on the board than we've got, and he was considered an unmitigated disaster of a manager. If we're not good at playing defensively we need to bloody well learn, and quickly. Attacking teams with such cavalier abandon as we are showing is simply not working. Our problems are with individual players IMO, not Adkins. Which is why I would be massively dissapointed if Adkins was sacked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintSteve Posted 29 October, 2012 Share Posted 29 October, 2012 Seeing Lallana sprinting back into the left-back spot a few times highlighted that we don't seem to defend well as a team. Fox was obviously off marking Lennon, leaving Lallana to the marauding Kyle Walker. I'd argue we need to be clever than that; passing on players to cut that out, to minimise the need for Lallana to be sprinting all the way back from teh halfway line. That either comes from Lallana and Fox working better together, or Fox having the option to pass Lennon on to another DM if he cuts inside and track the run of Walker. Spurs exposed huge gaping holes behind our full backs (who as you say have a starting position too high up the pitch). we're susceptible to individual errors, but we do ourselves no favours with our whole tactics of defending. Yes, with Lallana its as if he's just woken up from a dream. For the second goal, Defoe ran across the whole of the defence with no-one getting anywhere near him. Ball-Watching with no awareness of off the ball movement. Our defensive frailties are either due to nerves, lack of fitness or we are just not good enough.. take your pick. We will have a better idea of how bad the situation is after our November matches which provide better opportunities for 'points'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 29 October, 2012 Share Posted 29 October, 2012 Our problems are with individual players IMO, not Adkins. Which is why I would be massively dissapointed if Adkins was sacked. Sadly I think its both. The manager has been let down by individual errors. He's also been let down by a lop-sided transfer summer. But in addition, I also think he's made far too many mistakes of his own; take your pick from buying and playing Rodriguez wide left, letting Jos Hooiveld anywhere near a football pitch, dropping Rickie Lambert, the poor substitutions against Man United, not having an adequate replacement for Fox at LB, playing Yoshida at right back and left back, persisting with Puncheon instead of Mayuka, binning off Gazzaniga for an obviously overweight and out of sorts Boruc etc etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 29 October, 2012 Share Posted 29 October, 2012 Sadly I think its both. The manager has been let down by individual errors. He's also been let down by a lop-sided transfer summer. But in addition, I also think he's made far too many mistakes of his own; take your pick from buying and playing Rodriguez wide left, letting Jos Hooiveld anywhere near a football pitch, dropping Rickie Lambert, the poor substitutions against Man United, not having an adequate replacement for Fox at LB, playing Yoshida at right back and left back, persisting with Puncheon instead of Mayuka, binning off Gazzaniga for an obviously overweight and out of sorts Boruc etc etc etc. Do you not think his hand as been forced for many of the examples you give? Many of these decisions linked to not really having much choice through injury or through not getting defensive players he wanted in the summer. You can see for example that if he had a choice, Fox wouldn't play and would be dropped but he doesn't have much choice at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 29 October, 2012 Share Posted 29 October, 2012 Do you not think his hand as been forced for many of the examples you give? Many of these decisions linked to not really having much choice through injury or through not getting defensive players he wanted in the summer. You can see for example that if he had a choice, Fox wouldn't play and would be dropped but he doesn't have much choice at the moment. Some. For instance, moving Yoshida to right back after Richardson's injury was enforced. But to then after that put Yoshida at left back was an exceptionally poor decision IMO and Yoshida was very much a guilty party of us giving away at least 2 goals. And there were other options available too; Yoshida was patently not a good option as a left back. Similarly for the subs against Man United; it made little sense IMO to change the entire "front 3". As I say NA has been dealt a sh*tty hand with the transfer balls-up and with injuries; but I absolutely do not believe he has been error-free himself and had made too many needless errors himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 29 October, 2012 Share Posted 29 October, 2012 Some. For instance, moving Yoshida to right back after Richardson's injury was enforced. But to then after that put Yoshida at left back was an exceptionally poor decision IMO and Yoshida was very much a guilty party of us giving away at least 2 goals. And there were other options available too; Yoshida was patently not a good option as a left back. Similarly for the subs against Man United; it made little sense IMO to change the entire "front 3". As I say NA has been dealt a sh*tty hand with the transfer balls-up and with injuries; but I absolutely do not believe he has been error-free himself and had made too many needless errors himself. Fair enough but I suspect that if we were a little more open about injuries some of the manager's strange looking decisions might well be more comprehensible...ie Gazza, reckon he's injured myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 29 October, 2012 Share Posted 29 October, 2012 Some. For instance, moving Yoshida to right back after Richardson's injury was enforced. But to then after that put Yoshida at left back was an exceptionally poor decision IMO and Yoshida was very much a guilty party of us giving away at least 2 goals. And there were other options available too; Yoshida was patently not a good option as a left back. Similarly for the subs against Man United; it made little sense IMO to change the entire "front 3". As I say NA has been dealt a sh*tty hand with the transfer balls-up and with injuries; but I absolutely do not believe he has been error-free himself and had made too many needless errors himself. Both Fox and Shaw carrying injuries for west ham game....not sure he had much choice there and even then, just because a player is asked to do a different role, doesn't mean they should make basic errors. I'm not saying he's been faultless but does he really deserve the sack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 29 October, 2012 Share Posted 29 October, 2012 Both Fox and Shaw carrying injuries for west ham game....not sure he had much choice there and even then, just because a player is asked to do a different role, doesn't mean they should make basic errors. I'm not saying he's been faultless but does he really deserve the sack? To answer that; no. We're doing badly for a number of reasons and most of them are not his fault. But I do think he needs to get his act together. For West Ham; we had options in Ben Reeves and Ryan Dickson. Reeves has looked decent when he's played, Dickson is a very average left back but I still maintain he couldn't have fared any worse than Yoshida who looked like a fish up a tree playing at right back. Playing a right footed centre back at left back is plain daft IMO and an inexcusable error of judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Garrett Posted 29 October, 2012 Share Posted 29 October, 2012 Yoshida is Left footed I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 29 October, 2012 Share Posted 29 October, 2012 I watched Lallana yesterday from a defensive point of view, he wasn't alone, Puncheon was equally culpable. On the occasions that Lallana was sprinting back trying to get into a defensive positions he had spent a period walking/trotting watching the play going on near the ball, in other words ball watching before spotting the danger developing and setting off belatedly. The danger was there to see but it wasn't registering, he needed to drop into the defensive slot or pick up the relevant opponent before the ball was switched into that area rather than twenty seconds later busting a gut to make little difference. The defensive coaching isn't up to the mark and players need when not active to read the next probability and just go there before they are needed. That's how good defences compact and are difficult to break down. As somebody said on another thread, the back four don't pivot quickly enough when the attack is switched to the other side and the midfielders often don't drop into a position to present a defence in depth to the attacking side. The redundant full back has to immediately get back to cover the two centre backs who are the pivot, while the previously covering full back advances to meet the threat, at the same time midfielders get across to screen the three rear defenders goalside blocking the new threat. It needs anticipation from those players not close to the ball to move to counter a switch that is likely to happen rather than not anticipating and busting a gut, too little too late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 29 October, 2012 Share Posted 29 October, 2012 Yoshida is Left footed I think. If he is, he knows how to score with his right.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 29 October, 2012 Share Posted 29 October, 2012 I watched Lallana yesterday from a defensive point of view, he wasn't alone, Puncheon was equally culpable. On the occasions that Lallana was sprinting back trying to get into a defensive positions he had spent a period walking/trotting watching the play going on near the ball, in other words ball watching before spotting the danger developing and setting off belatedly. The danger was there to see but it wasn't registering, he needed to drop into the defensive slot or pick up the relevant opponent before the ball was switched into that area rather than twenty seconds later busting a gut to make little difference. The defensive coaching isn't up to the mark and players need when not active to read the next probability and just go there before they are needed. That's how good defences compact and are difficult to break down. When you think about it; Lallana has barely had much need in his career with Saints to overly concentrate on the defensive aspect of his game. 2 years in League 1 where he was much more attacking than defensive; even last season in the championship he was given great license to push forwards. And during the summer he was being played in the number 10 position, so the club clearly didn't do coaching with him into how best to cover Fox. Unsurprising really that he looks so defensively naive, I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derry Posted 29 October, 2012 Share Posted 29 October, 2012 When you think about it; Lallana has barely had much need in his career with Saints to overly concentrate on the defensive aspect of his game. 2 years in League 1 where he was much more attacking than defensive; even last season in the championship he was given great license to push forwards. And during the summer he was being played in the number 10 position, so the club clearly didn't do coaching with him into how best to cover Fox. Unsurprising really that he looks so defensively naive, I suppose. Conversely Mayuka shut Bale out of the game with his tracking allied to his threat. He seemed to be thinking ahead and seemed to drop into a covering position early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 29 October, 2012 Share Posted 29 October, 2012 Conversely Mayuka shut Bale out of the game with his tracking allied to his threat. He seemed to be thinking ahead and seemed to drop into a covering position early. I've been banging the drum for Mayuka to be given a chance wide right for some time now. Hopefully this will be the catalyst for him to start against West Brom; although I get the feeling NA is a bit obsessed with using him as an impact sub. Which means we're left with the very average Puncheon out there. Against the Baggies I'd go with a midfield 3 of Schneiderlin, Davis and JWP or Cork if fit, with Mayuka and Lallana wide. Plenty of time to work on the formation this week and get our full backs (Dan Fox, I'm talking about you) to understand how they work with their midfielders and cover their own full back areas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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