Being far too open

[Thedelldays]

If we continue to play 1 in the hole... And leave 2 in the middle of the park

 

We will go down.

 

We are and continue to be far too open and we are easy to beat.

[Dig Dig]

This is really interesting. Why haven't you mentioned this before?

[Lazlo78]

This is really interesting. Why haven't you mentioned this before?

 

Thank you very much

[Lighthouse]

We aren't far too open, we just make schoolboy errors in large numbers. Spurs hardly overran us today and Boruc was barely troubled other than the goals.

 

It was the same at West Ham. We weren't too open, we kept it tight for long periods then out of the blue we self destruct and they casually wander in and score.

[Saint_clark]

If we continue to play 1 in the hole... And leave 2 in the middle of the park

 

We will go down.

 

We are and continue to be far too open and we are easy to beat.

 

We played 4-4-2 today.

[Thedelldays]

We aren't far too open, we just make schoolboy errors in large numbers. Spurs hardly overran us today and Boruc was barely troubled other than the goals.

 

It was the same at West Ham. We weren't too open, we kept it tight for long periods then out of the blue we self destruct and they casually wander in and score.

 

I would disagree. Having re watched the game. The amount of space huddletone etc had in the middle allowing them to counter attack at ease in the first half was alarming and draws players all over the place

[Thedelldays]

We played 4-4-2 today.

 

For a large part of the game

Which still had 2 in the middle of the park

[Saint_clark]

For a large part of the game

Which still had 2 in the middle of the park

 

So what's the answer then? Switch to complete 4-5-1 and lose the majority of our attacking threat, where our strengths lie?

[saintrich]

We aren't far too open, we just make schoolboy errors in large numbers. Spurs hardly overran us today and Boruc was barely troubled other than the goals.

 

It was the same at West Ham. We weren't too open, we kept it tight for long periods then out of the blue we self destruct and they casually wander in and score.

 

 

There was mixup very early on where someone poked it wide and also got carved open and defoe should have scored. Could have been 3 or 4 down at ht. looked shaky everytime spurs attacked.

[Thedelldays]

So what's the answer then? Switch to complete 4-5-1 and lose the majority of our attacking threat, where our strengths lie?

 

Well. With £30m+ of attacking talent, we will still score goals

 

Our best overall performance was against Man U. We had 3 in the middle. Playing like that would see us more likely to pick up points

 

Going toe to toe with spurs, Everton and even now, west ham is getting is no where

[Turkish]

Our offensive soccerballism Is delightful at times. I feel Nige is close to getting the balance right. But the simple fact is the defenders. I'm liking Yoshida, I think Boruc will come good, he is the experienced glovesman we were looking for. For me Clyne doesn't look ready yet. A class centre half and left back are a must in January. We were poor in the first half but very good in the second and the reality is Spurs, for all their attacking threat and pace never really threatend in the second period of play.

[pingwing]

First half we did 4-3-2 with Puncheon getting in the way horribly.

 

Second half Lallana dropped into the middle and did 4-3-3 properly which worked much better, helped mostly with Myukya being able to run about with the ball and Rodriguez doing ok on the left and all 3 up top switching it about and confusing everyone.

 

Our openness comes mostly from just giving the ball away in the middle of an attacking movement, Puncheons principle activity. Keep the ball properly things seem to look better

[SNSUN]

Lallana running after the Tottenham winger at least twice in the first half without a Fox in sight made me think that's the spot we need to sort out more than any. Surely it's a matter of time before we take the plunge with Shaw? We'll see against Leeds I reckon, but we gave Bridge a chance at a young age, and Bale albeit in a lower league. Shaw may not be ready yet but can he be worse than Fox? (I've never been a fan of his if I'm being honest.)

[Saint_clark]

Lallana running after the Tottenham winger at least twice in the first half without a Fox in sight made me think that's the spot we need to sort out more than any. Surely it's a matter of time before we take the plunge with Shaw? We'll see against Leeds I reckon, but we gave Bridge a chance at a young age, and Bale albeit in a lower league. Shaw may not be ready yet but can he be worse than Fox? (I've never been a fan of his if I'm being honest.)

 

On both occasions Fox was closing down Lennon, the player getting in behind was Walker - Lallanas responsibility.

[Roger]

On both occasions Fox was closing down Lennon, the player getting in behind was Walker - Lallanas responsibility.

 

Wasn't fox fault at all.

[ThreeSixty]

If Fox was playing Fifa be a pro mode, he'd never get the positional bonus

[JustMike]

If we continue to play 1 in the hole... And leave 2 in the middle of the park

 

We will go down.

 

We are and continue to be far too open and we are easy to beat.

 

for the most part we were 4-4-2, we actually improved when switching to 4-3-3 and mayuka came on

[doddisalegend]

for the most part we were 4-4-2, we actually improved when switching to 4-3-3 and mayuka came on

 

Was it the system that made a difference or just the fact that Mayuka injected some much needed pace and passion that gave our players a boost and worried spurs enough to put them on the back foot?

[ericofarabia]

Our offensive soccerballism Is delightful at times. I feel Nige is close to getting the balance right. But the simple fact is the defenders. I'm liking Yoshida, I think Boruc will come good, he is the experienced glovesman we were looking for. For me Clyne doesn't look ready yet. A class centre half and left back are a must in January. We were poor in the first half but very good in the second and the reality is Spurs, for all their attacking threat and pace never really threatend in the second period of play.

 

LOLZ .... you are morphing back into Monty Brogan (or was that Ess?).

[70's Mike]

blimey almost agree with TheDelldays, been saying all season we do not have midfielders who can defend,no one looks comfortable chasing full backs back towards our goal,but also agree with another post which says individual errors are severly punished

[Thedelldays]

We have the worst defence at this point in premier league history

 

So what does our manager do...go toe to toe with the likes of spurs etc

[Turkish]

We have the worst defence at this point in premier league history

 

So what does our manager do...go toe to toe with the likes of spurs etc

 

Manager?

[Ashley Grute]

Some may hugely disagree, but I still think Deano could have done a job for us at this level in the DM role. Also a real leader on the pitch. Love Lallana, but for me he is no captain.

[The9]

We played 4-4-2 today.

 

We played 3-0-4 at some points in the first half.

[The9]

Was it the system that made a difference or just the fact that Mayuka injected some much needed pace and passion that gave our players a boost and worried spurs enough to put them on the back foot?

 

It was Mayuka trying to play himself into the team and the rest of them picking up on his energy and starting to inject the effort we should have had all along. They played like I felt, hungover.

 

I find it difficult to believe we were playing more than one (Davis) in the middle of midfield for the entire of the first half, because every time we had the ball there was only one person for about 30 yards and we never once tried to pass to him.

[Saint Garrett]

Yesterday proved that 4-4-2 will not work this season. The game has moved on. We looked massively improved once Lallana went in the middle with Davis and Morgan, and Mayuka and J-Rod played either side of Lambert.

[The Kraken]

Hansen's analysis of "non-contact" on MOTD2 was spot on. We sat off them and gave them as much space as they wanted to pick a pass. The second goal was pathetic, we didn't get anywhere near their players and it was in the back of the net. Again. There didn't seem to be any bite in midfield; they look decent enough in posession but I never sensed an overwhelming desire to get the ball back and make it difficult for Spurs to play. Its a common theme this season; we making it all too easy for the opposition and not making them earn their goals enough.

 

I also think that in Puncheon, Rodriguez, Fonte, Fox and perhaps even Clyne and Yoshida that we have too many players who aren't yet ready for the demands of Premier League football.

[Turkish]

Hansen's analysis of "non-contact" on MOTD2 was spot on. We sat off them and gave them as much space as they wanted to pick a pass. The second goal was pathetic, we didn't get anywhere near their players and it was in the back of the net. Again. There didn't seem to be any bite in midfield; they look decent enough in posession but I never sensed an overwhelming desire to get the ball back and make it difficult for Spurs to play. Its a common theme this season; we making it all too easy for the opposition and not making them earn their goals enough.

 

I also think that in Puncheon, Rodriguez, Fonte, Fox and perhaps even Clyne and Yoshida that we have too many players who aren't yet ready for the demands of Premier League football.

 

We said exactly this during the match. No one putting their foot in and also about the players not being ready. But because Alan Hansen said it on telly he's disrespectful.

[Chez]

 

Going toe to toe with spurs, Everton and even now, west ham is getting is no where

so what you're saying is we need to play JWP in the middle with Davis and Morgan. What about the left and right sides? Do we go for Lallana an Mayuka? Neither are naturally defensive, so don't help our fullbacks. Mor eof a 4-3-3 than a 4-5-1. Where does Ramirez play when he comes back?

[tajjuk]

If we continue to play 1 in the hole... And leave 2 in the middle of the park

 

We will go down.

 

We are and continue to be far too open and we are easy to beat.

 

Sort of, we need to play 3 in the middle definitely but I don't think playing in the hole is the problem, we were 4-4-2 first half and all over the place.

 

The 4-1-2-2-1 is the way to go, (or 4-3-3 simplified) as shown by the second half performance, Jay Rod can play left if needed and do ok, but more likely Lallana will go there once Ramirez is back.

 

Personally would like to see Cork told to sit in front of the back four and cover, give Morgan the freedom to do what he's been doing, closing down, intercepting and breaking forward. get Ramirez next to him as the creator, Mayuka and Lallana wide supporting Lambert. Jay Rod can then come on if Rickie is tired/ineffective/we need a different option. (Although I think we will get a lot more out of Lambert with Mayuka near him than Puncheon). Let Clyne continue to bomb on down the right and whoever is left back (which shouldn't be Fox, give one of the young lads a go, can't be worse) has a more disciplined role, that way even if we attack we will have both centre backs, the left back and Cork to defend.

[Chez]

We sat off them and gave them as much space as they wanted to pick a pass. The second goal was pathetic, we didn't get anywhere near their players and it was in the back of the net.

Agreed. Yoshida was massively at fault. He just let Defoe do whatever he wanted

[The Kraken]

Personally would like to see Cork told to sit in front of the back four and cover, give Morgan the freedom to do what he's been doing, closing down, intercepting and breaking forward. get Ramirez next to him as the creator, Mayuka and Lallana wide supporting Lambert. Jay Rod can then come on if Rickie is tired/ineffective/we need a different option. (Although I think we will get a lot more out of Lambert with Mayuka near him than Puncheon). Let Clyne continue to bomb on down the right and whoever is left back (which shouldn't be Fox, give one of the young lads a go, can't be worse) has a more disciplined role, that way even if we attack we will have both centre backs, the left back and Cork to defend.

 

Its what's needed; but I'm not really sure if that's entirely Jack Cork's role.

[Pilchards]

Hansen's analysis of "non-contact" on MOTD2 was spot on. We sat off them and gave them as much space as they wanted to pick a pass. The second goal was pathetic, we didn't get anywhere near their players and it was in the back of the net. Again. There didn't seem to be any bite in midfield; they look decent enough in posession but I never sensed an overwhelming desire to get the ball back and make it difficult for Spurs to play. Its a common theme this season; we making it all too easy for the opposition and not making them earn their goals enough.

 

I also think that in Puncheon, Rodriguez, Fonte, Fox and perhaps even Clyne and Yoshida that we have too many players who aren't yet ready for the demands of Premier League football.

 

 

We lacked a hard bastard on the pitch, too many twinkle toe tackles.

Most teams in the premiership have a grafter, a genius and a nutter who lets you know he's about.

Perhaps Chaplow could be that option?

[Pilchards]

Sort of, we need to play 3 in the middle definitely but I don't think playing in the hole is the problem, we were 4-4-2 first half and all over the place.

 

The 4-1-2-2-1 is the way to go, (or 4-3-3 simplified) as shown by the second half performance, Jay Rod can play left if needed and do ok, but more likely Lallana will go there once Ramirez is back.

 

Personally would like to see Cork told to sit in front of the back four and cover, give Morgan the freedom to do what he's been doing, closing down, intercepting and breaking forward. get Ramirez next to him as the creator, Mayuka and Lallana wide supporting Lambert. Jay Rod can then come on if Rickie is tired/ineffective/we need a different option. (Although I think we will get a lot more out of Lambert with Mayuka near him than Puncheon). Let Clyne continue to bomb on down the right and whoever is left back (which shouldn't be Fox, give one of the young lads a go, can't be worse) has a more disciplined role, that way even if we attack we will have both centre backs, the left back and Cork to defend.

 

Just what we need but Cork needs to put some bite in his tackles.

[The9]

Lallana running after the Tottenham winger at least twice in the first half without a Fox in sight made me think that's the spot we need to sort out more than any. Surely it's a matter of time before we take the plunge with Shaw? We'll see against Leeds I reckon, but we gave Bridge a chance at a young age, and Bale albeit in a lower league. Shaw may not be ready yet but can he be worse than Fox? (I've never been a fan of his if I'm being honest.)

 

Yes Shaw is worse, and no he is not ready. His failure to get near the first team since Stevenage is all the evidence of that we need at this stage. Richardson was a better centre back than Shaw was left back in that match - and Richardson was not "good".

[The9]

We said exactly this during the match. No one putting their foot in and also about the players not being ready. But because Alan Hansen said it on telly he's disrespectful.

 

Biggest problem in the first half was a total lack of effort through the entire team. Positionally we were alright, provided the opposition stood still and didn't try to score any goals.

[The Kraken]

We lacked a hard bastard on the pitch, too many twinkle toe tackles.

Most teams in the premiership have a grafter, a genius and a nutter who lets you know he's about.

Perhaps Chaplow could be that option?

 

Do they? I'd have thought times have moved on from that. Take a look at the best club side in Europe, Barcelona. They are one of the hardest working teams out there, and brilliant at winning the ball back, but they don't really have an enforcer. They have players like Fabregas, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, none of whom are a nutter. Mascherano is the closest you get to that I suppose. What they do have is players who will do all they can to make a tackle, they will snap around ankles trying to nick the ball away, and they often hunt in packs making the ball-carrier make a mistake. We didn't do that; at all. We stood off a yard or two and let them get their heads up whenever they wanted. Having one enforcer in there isn't going to fix the fact that all of our players stood off far too much and seemed frightened to commit to a challenge. It needs a change of mentality to put that right.

[Chez]

We lacked a hard bastard on the pitch, too many twinkle toe tackles.

Most teams in the premiership have a grafter, a genius and a nutter who lets you know he's about.

Perhaps Chaplow could be that option?

 

Chaplow grafts up and down, but he's not an enforcer in any way, nor a genius. I like him, but don;t want to see him in the middle. His touch is not good enough, nor his passing. Davis and Morgan are the right people for the job. What Delldays wants is another central midfielder in there with them rather than an attacking player like Lallana or Ramirez. JWP makes sense to me, all that energy to close down opponents would be perfect.

[Pilchards]

Do they? I'd have thought times have moved on from that. Take a look at the best club side in Europe, Barcelona. They are one of the hardest working teams out there, and brilliant at winning the ball back, but they don't really have an enforcer. They have players like Fabregas, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, none of whom are a nutter. Mascherano is the closest you get to that I suppose. What they do have is players who will do all they can to make a tackle, they will snap around ankles trying to nick the ball away, and they often hunt in packs making the ball-carrier make a mistake. We didn't do that; at all. We stood off a yeard or two and let them get their heads up whenever they wanted. Having one enforcer in there isn't going to fix the fact that all of our players stood off far too much and seemed frightened to commit to a challenge. It needs a change of mentality to put that right.

 

 

Please dont compare us to Barca as its embarrassing.

I was also referring to Premiership clubs.

[Turkish]

Do they? I'd have thought times have moved on from that. Take a look at the best club side in Europe, Barcelona. They are one of the hardest working teams out there, and brilliant at winning the ball back, but they don't really have an enforcer. They have players like Fabregas, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, none of whom are a nutter. Mascherano is the closest you get to that I suppose. What they do have is players who will do all they can to make a tackle, they will snap around ankles trying to nick the ball away, and they often hunt in packs making the ball-carrier make a mistake. We didn't do that; at all. We stood off a yard or two and let them get their heads up whenever they wanted. Having one enforcer in there isn't going to fix the fact that all of our players stood off far too much and seemed frightened to commit to a challenge. It needs a change of mentality to put that right.

 

We need someone like David Batty. FACT.

[Pilchards]

Chaplow grafts up and down, but he's not an enforcer in any way, nor a genius. I like him, but don;t want to see him in the middle. His touch is not good enough, nor his passing. Davis and Morgan are the right people for the job. What Delldays wants is another central midfielder in there with them rather than an attacking player like Lallana or Ramirez. JWP makes sense to me, all that energy to close down opponents would be perfect.

 

I was thinking back to my days on playing and most times you never had much time as you always has a knob that would try kick you in the air.

I suppose Prowse could provide the energy to close the spaces that we give other teams.

[The9]

Chaplow grafts up and down, but he's not an enforcer in any way, nor a genius. I like him, but don;t want to see him in the middle. His touch is not good enough, nor his passing. Davis and Morgan are the right people for the job. What Delldays wants is another central midfielder in there with them rather than an attacking player like Lallana or Ramirez. JWP makes sense to me, all that energy to close down opponents would be perfect.

 

That's pretty much what I've been saying too - someone sitting in front of the back line instead of us losing it in the middle when flat and overcrowded and there being no buffer in front of the back 4. Neither Schneiderlin nor Davis does that at the moment, and the rest are basically purely attacking.

 

As I've also realised since the weekend, we are almost always chasing back towards our own goal, and being pulled around whilst facing the wrong way, or if we're organised, we're not back in sufficient midfield numbers most of the time. The starting position of our full backs is part of the reason for the former, not sure why we can't get back in numbers though - we did it against Man City ok.

[The Kraken]

Please dont compare us to Barca as its embarrassing.

I was also referring to Premiership clubs.

 

It wasn't a comparison, was it? Simply pointing out that they have diminutive midfielders, none of them famed for tackling, yet they are one of the best teams in Europe at getting the ball back. And they do it by pressurinsing the ball carrier, and actually putting in a challenge (even if that is just trying to nick the ball away). We didn't get close enough to Spurs to do that; hence why they ran through us time and again.

[The Kraken]

We need someone like David Batty. FACT.

 

Barry Venison CDAJFU.

[S-Clarke]

Alot is made of ''needing to have a tough tackling midfielder to do well'', when as Kraken points out - Barca don't have one, neither do Spain.

 

It sounds simple, but all you need to do is keep the football and have quality in the attack to receive the football. When you don't have the football, you need to pressure high to win it back. If you have good passers and energy, then the rest sort of slots in.

[The9]

Do they? I'd have thought times have moved on from that. Take a look at the best club side in Europe, Barcelona. They are one of the hardest working teams out there, and brilliant at winning the ball back, but they don't really have an enforcer. They have players like Fabregas, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, none of whom are a nutter. Mascherano is the closest you get to that I suppose. What they do have is players who will do all they can to make a tackle, they will snap around ankles trying to nick the ball away, and they often hunt in packs making the ball-carrier make a mistake. We didn't do that; at all. We stood off a yard or two and let them get their heads up whenever they wanted. Having one enforcer in there isn't going to fix the fact that all of our players stood off far too much and seemed frightened to commit to a challenge. It needs a change of mentality to put that right.

 

They hunt in packs but are MUCH better at defending when they don't have the ball and their excellent use of the ball and possession when they have it minimises their need to defend to begin with - we're not at the level where we can keep it in midfield in the Prem the way we regularly did in the Championship - at times in the first half yesterday we looked like we'd forsaken even trying to pass using anyone who wasn't in the back line, which is what happens when you want to keep it but aren't good enough, you get pressed back and back and back to the keeper and then hoof it away.

[The9]

Alot is made of ''needing to have a tough tackling midfielder to do well'', when as Kraken points out - Barca don't have one, neither do Spain.

 

It sounds simple, but all you need to do is keep the football and have quality in the attack to receive the football. If you have good passers, then the rest sort of slots in.

 

Only if you are astonishingly good at the possession part. We're just not that good at it often enough, so the model doesn't work.

 

There's a lot to be said for using the "extra midfielder" to keep the ball, but we've all seen what happens when you constantly lose it in midfield against better teams (especially Arsenal). I think we need to refocus on defending better as the creativity can take care of itself.

[ericofarabia]

We need someone like David Batty. FACT.

 

Nora Batty is scarier than any of our powderpuff midfielders

[The Kraken]

Only if you are astonishingly good at the possession part. We're just not that good at it often enough, so the model doesn't work.

 

There's a lot to be said for using the "extra midfielder" to keep the ball, but we've all seen what happens when you constantly lose it in midfield against better teams (especially Arsenal). I think we need to refocus on defending better as the creativity can take care of itself.

 

Seeing Lallana sprinting back into the left-back spot a few times highlighted that we don't seem to defend well as a team. Fox was obviously off marking Lennon, leaving Lallana to the marauding Kyle Walker. I'd argue we need to be clever than that; passing on players to cut that out, to minimise the need for Lallana to be sprinting all the way back from teh halfway line. That either comes from Lallana and Fox working better together, or Fox having the option to pass Lennon on to another DM if he cuts inside and track the run of Walker. Spurs exposed huge gaping holes behind our full backs (who as you say have a starting position too high up the pitch).

 

we're succeptible to individual errors, but we do ourselves no favours with our whole tactics of defending.

[The9]

we do ourselves no favours with our whole tactics of not defending.

 

If you ask me.