US Presidential Elections 2012

[pap]

It's that time again. By the end of November, our cousins over the pond will have selected their Executive Branch for the next four years. It seems like it has been going on forever; not only have we had news of the respective Republican primaries in the past, but recently, the live TV debates have been happening. I also have a few Americans on my Facebook feed who have updated about little else.

 

Think it's fair to say that Obama has been underwhelming, and I wouldn't even say its his fault. So much symbolism was attached to his election that the day-to-day grind of the actual Presidency was never going to live up to that potential promise. Although a President's powers are far-reaching for crises, the US system of checks and balances can severely curtail a President's power to bring about lasting change.

 

Romney seems to be doing the usual trick of divide and rule with his talk of the 47% of the population that supposedly doesn't pay income tax.

 

Even so, it seems like a close race. What are your impressions of the candidates so far? Who do you want to win, and who do you think will win? With all the special interest lobbying and adversarial filibustering in the House and Senate, how relevant is the position of the Presidency?

[Thedelldays]

I am amazed on how much coverage this gets over here

 

as for who wins...i really could not care less

[pap]

I am amazed on how much coverage this gets over here

 

as for who wins...i really could not care less

 

I'm not really that surprised. It's not like it isn't relevant to us.

 

What would the world look like now if Al Gore had been elected in 2000?

[Pancake]

Found this interesting: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20008687

[norwaysaint]

I'll be talking about little else with my classes for the next 2 weeks. They're all keen to hear my opinion, but I won't give it to them. I want them to research the policies and viewpoints independently and in as balanced a way as possible. In Europe it's too easy to be swayed towards Obama without knowing anything about the facts at all.

[SuperMikey]

I've watched all the debates so far, and i've been struck by how poor the candidates have been. It's nothing like the 2008 election where all that excitement was whipped up around Obama, but Romney has really failed to capitalise on the apathy towards the Pres.

 

I still can't see Obama losing though. He's performed much better in the debates than Romney, who's just come across as a juddering smug f*ckbag. The 3rd debate on foreign policy illustrated that.

[Frank's cousin]

Problem with the US is that they are still stuck in a world where politics is based around anything that looks to develop a 'social' policy is considered 'communisim' - just look at the diufficulty Obama has/had with his health policy... I onec chatted to an Americal who thinks its socialist rubbish to have a national health service - he softened a little when I said that only truely civilized and economically strong capitalist societies could in effect afford one... look at the Germans, who arguably have the best in Europe - 'keep em healthy, keep em working'! ;-)

 

They tend to elect Republicans who manage to keep their extremist views in check, and then when that fails elect a more moderate rightwing 'democrat' in response - the legacy of 'fear' for anything that would have a real impact on their system from the Mccarthy era paranoia remains and cold war etc is astounding... so much for the 'leaders of the free world'....

 

I find their politics entwined with Religion also a little disturbing.

[norwaysaint]

I find their politics entwined with Religion also a little disturbing.

 

I've commented on the irony of that before.

 

According to its own constitution, the US can have no state religion. Their politics are not supposed to have religious influence, dating back to the idea of the country being home to immigrants from all over the world, with many cultural backgrounds. Yet Christian influence in politics is huge and considered very important and desirable by many. An openly atheist candidate for president would have great difficulty being elected.

 

In the UK we have an official state religion, the Church of England. In theory it would be perfectly reasonable for religion to have a strong influence over policy, yet we are generally horrified by the idea of people bringing their religion into their politics.

 

I wonder if it is just an irony, or if the official presence of religion actually inversely affects how much people want it present in government.

[bridge too far]

 

I find their politics entwined with Religion also a little disturbing.

 

Here's a good example

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/24/richard-mourdock-rape-remarks-romney

[badgerx16]

Here's a good example

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/24/richard-mourdock-rape-remarks-romney

 

From the comments underneath :

"I did not realize that there are so many people in the US who resemble the Taliban in their world views. They love guns, they love God and justify everything in the name of God. May be these guys must have been sent to negotiate with the Taliban. They might have felt the oneness in their beliefs."

[alpine_saint]

Both of them will prove to be sh*te underwhelming Presidents incapable of checking the slide of US and Western economic and political influence in the world.

 

But I've decided to side with Mitt on the basis of how agressive, dismissive and patronising the Democrat side have been, especiall Biden during his live debate with Ryan.

[Saintandy666]

Both of them will prove to be sh*te underwhelming Presidents incapable of checking the slide of US and Western economic and political influence in the world.

 

But I've decided to side with Mitt on the basis of how agressive, dismissive and patronising the Democrat side have been, especiall Biden during his live debate with Ryan.

 

That's a bit silly. You should vote based on what a candidate would actually do.

 

And I think the US will be fine. It's Europe that we should be worrying about. If you look at proportion of world GDP over the past generation, it is Europe's which has been declining, not the US. The US has an extremely resilient and large economy and I think they will come through fine and balance well against China. The only hope for Europe, if they want to still be a world player, is further integration. Together, we'd be a force people might listen to. Apart, not so much. (The US is also busy redefining itself as a pacific nation, as opposed to an Atlantic nation due to our declining significance)

 

On the election itself, Obama should win. I don't sense too much enthusiasm for Romney, even from his core base. And he can't even attack Obama on his health care reforms because he introduced an extremely similiar system as governor of Massachusetts A lot of the republican heavyweights seemed to think this election was a write off too. The field will be much stronger in 2016(I can't believe Rick Santorum was ever in contention) I expect perhaps with Jeb Bush and Mike Huckabee and so on running.

Edited 25 October, 2012 by Saintandy666

[buctootim]

I'll be talking about little else with my classes for the next 2 weeks. They're all keen to hear my opinion, but I won't give it to them. I want them to research the policies and viewpoints independently and in as balanced a way as possible. In Europe it's too easy to be swayed towards Obama without knowing anything about the facts at all.

 

Ive got friends in the US, mainly Democrats. All are dismayed by how ineffective he's been. "An administrator but not a leader" is a phrase Ive heard many times. Many White Anglo Saxon Protestant Americans feel very threatened as the US gradually loses its global leadership to China and the ethnic balance changes rapidly with the Latinisation of the south. I think its why escape to the past tv programmes like Downton Abbey are so popular. Romney is a disingenous slimeball btw.

[hypochondriac]

That's a bit silly. You should vote based on what a candidate would actually do.

 

He isn't actually voting Andy...

[badgerx16]

I expect perhaps with Jeb Bush ......

 

Oh f()ck, not another one ?

[Saintandy666]

Oh f()ck, not another one ?

 

Oh yes. In a way, it's quite ironic...

[badgerx16]

Oh yes. In a way, it's quite ironic...

 

G H W Bush - war with Iraq

 

G W Bush - war with Iraq & invade Afghanistan

 

J E Bush - war with ???

[pap]

As divided as people often like to make this little jumble of nations out to be, the US is on another level. Some of the people I work with are literally foaming with right-wing sentiment, and it's all the usual regurgitated guff from pretend news channels like Fox. Someone on another thread somewhere made a very good point about the relative detachment that many US citizens have from one another. Live in suburbs and live and work with those of similar mindsets - perhaps don't meet many people who challenge their views, by design in many cases.

 

Then you've got the issue of race and national identity. Most Americans will self-identify as something-American. Dunno whether that's just a thing they do with foreigners; to me that suggests a lack of national identity that is underpinned by the division I've seen there. May be a horribly left-wing thing to suggest, but their lack of a safety net has some real nasty social consequences. Tons of Americans rely on their employers' health plan for the well-being of themselves and their families. Many move around a lot too, depriving them of the roots they might otherwise find strength in. The result is a country that, for all its optimism, is deeply insecure and adversarial. Their politics tends to reflect that.

 

I'll leave you with one of my favourite quotes about US Politics:-

 

[h=1]“I'll show you politics in America. Here it is, right here. 'I think the puppet on the right shares my beliefs.' 'I think the puppet on the left is more to my liking.' 'Hey, wait a minute, there's one guy holding out both puppets!'”[/h]

[Hamilton Saint]

Both of them will prove to be sh*te underwhelming Presidents incapable of checking the slide of US and Western economic and political influence in the world.

 

But I've decided to side with Mitt on the basis of how agressive, dismissive and patronising the Democrat side have been, especiall Biden during his live debate with Ryan.

 

You're not familiar with the way Republicans campaign then?

 

In North America, right-wingers claim the moral high-ground, but behave in the most sleazy, underhanded way. And these sorts of Republican tactics are being imported into Canada by our Republican-loving Prime Minister. One example: during the last federal election here in Canada people working for the Conservative party on election day used automated phone systems to call people and tell them that their polling station had been moved to another location. They were hoping that when these people arrived at the wrong place and found out they'd been misdirected, they would give up in frustration and not bother to vote. These sorts of right-wingers think that any means justify their ends. To them it's all part of the all-out-war that is modern politics.

[LVSaint]

I've been unimpressed with Obama and the democrats for their lack of backbone and inability to get things done at the right time. That said, Romney (and his magic underwear) represent how repugnant the right wing has become in the last decade. He appears to have been a pretty decent guv'ner in MA *worked well with the late Ted Kennedy) and brought about some impressive medical and abortion legislations to the state...things that he has done complete u-turns on for his campaign. No surprise. Wouldn't have voted for him anyway.

 

Obama to win. Hard to shift an incumbent. May have done just enough in debates to sway the confused independents.

 

Where's Cheese on Toast?

[krissyboy31]

I've been unimpressed with Obama and the democrats for their lack of backbone and inability to get things done at the right time. That said, Romney (and his magic underwear) represent how repugnant the right wing has become in the last decade. He appears to have been a pretty decent guv'ner in MA *worked well with the late Ted Kennedy) and brought about some impressive medical and abortion legislations to the state...things that he has done complete u-turns on for his campaign. No surprise. Wouldn't have voted for him anyway.

 

Obama to win. Hard to shift an incumbent. May have done just enough in debates to sway the confused independents.

 

Where's Cheese on Toast?

 

Isn't that more a failing of the American system, where the President doesn't necessarily have the majority in the two houses and whatever policies they present get blocked.

[LVSaint]

Isn't that more a failing of the American system, where the President doesn't necessarily have the majority in the two houses and whatever policies they present get blocked.

 

I was implying that he did not act fast enough whilst the Dems still had the majority in house and senate in his first two years.

[melmacian_saint]

What I find most repugnant is the obsession this country and Europe in general (though to a lesser extent) has with America and its living.

 

How people seem to ignore the fact that it is probably the most ill society of the developed world I don't know. I feel like vomiting when I hear people with American accents doing adverts on the radio over here. As I do when I see that neo imitations of baseball caps.

 

We seem to forget were it all came form in the first place.

[hutch]

I'll be talking about little else with my classes for the next 2 weeks. They're all keen to hear my opinion, but I won't give it to them. I want them to research the policies and viewpoints independently and in as balanced a way as possible. In Europe it's too easy to be swayed towards Obama without knowing anything about the facts at all.

Takes me back to Dave Trotter at Barton Peveril in '72. If only we'd really known what was going on in that Hotel

[Gambol2K9]

I think Obama's first term has been shackled by the Republican's grip on congress. Regardless, he has seemed a bit underwhelming compared to the initial hype when he was elected.

 

Anyone who would happily vote for Mitt Romney, with his ridiculous Mormon beliefs, needs their head checking. All religions are daft but Mormonism is one of the most nonsense belief systems in existence!

[Hamilton Saint]

I was implying that he did not act fast enough whilst the Dems still had the majority in house and senate in his first two years.

 

He tried to establish a new sense of bipartisanship. He wanted to raise the tone of debate and establish a reasonable consensus on some of the more contentious issues. The ultra-right-wingers in the Republican Party (Tea Party types) had absolutely no interest in that approach. In hindsight, Obama's hope for compromise seems naive (given the attitude he was faced with), but you can't balme him for trying, can you? Or must politics always be a highly adversarial enterprise?

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Where's Cheese on Toast?

 

Doesn't seem to be around. I'll fill in:

 

Obama is a filthy socialist commie liberial elitist. I'm backing Romney to be the true heir to Margerat Thatcher/Iain Smith/General Pinochet.

[Thedelldays]

obama makes cameron look like a commie....and yank democrat does

[Hamilton Saint]

How a man treats his dog says a lot about the man.

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitt_Romney_dog_incident

Edited 26 October, 2012 by Hamilton Saint

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

obama makes cameron look like a commie....and yank democrat does

 

totally, it's amazing that many Americans think they have a proper political spectrum - it just goes from pretty right wing round to extremely right wing laced with massive self-interest.

 

I read earlier that total spending on this election is set to excede $1 billion. I'm sure the big donars will want payback post election.

[JPTCount]

doesnt count until it's a popular vote.

[Hamilton Saint]

totally, it's amazing that many Americans think they have a proper political spectrum - it just goes from pretty right wing round to extremely right wing laced with massive self-interest.

 

I read earlier that total spending on this election is set to excede $1 billion. I'm sure the big donars will want payback post election.

 

In the "swing" state of Ohio alone, Obama has spent $57 million; Romney has spent $34 million. In one month (Sep 24 - Oct 24), there have been 58,235 presidential-race TV ads broadcast in Ohio. That's about 2,000 per day! Ohio has 18 votes in the Electoral College. The last time the winner was elected President without winning in Ohio was 1960 - hence the candidates' interest in that state.

[Thedelldays]

I am amazed on how much coverage this gets over here

 

as for who wins...i really could not care less

 

Ok pap... Having woke up early this morning, I flicked through iplayer and watched the Andrew marr thingy about Obama

 

General thoughts. He has been all fart and no shyt for the Americans. The poor are poorer, the rich are richer and they still have high unployment.

 

Did not realise that in Washington, he is one of the most dislikes presidents in recent history... And many average Americans are massively let down after the hype faded

 

He will probably win tomorrow. But it should never be as close as it is with who he is up against.

[norwaysaint]

Don't really understand why I see so many opinion poll results. They don't need a majority of votes from the population to win, just the colleges. Obama could lose massively in most states, but win narrowly in a few like California, Florida, New York etc and romp home. Just like in the UK, the number of individual votes doesn't mean a lot.

[pap]

Just looking forward to it all being over at the moment. It really isn't the media coverage that is doing my head in; more the grim spectacle of watching people pretend they know or care about politics.

 

The other thing that comes across is a general feeling that although the US has plenty of land, wealth and military power, I really don't get the sense of a country, at least not in the same way that this imperfect isle of immigrant cultures is. Maybe it's the space or the relative lack of roots, but the US increasingly looks like a place where the tribes of the old world happened to move. Can the US ever be "One Nation"?

[pap]

Don't really understand why I see so many opinion poll results. They don't need a majority of votes from the population to win, just the colleges. Obama could lose massively in most states, but win narrowly in a few like California, Florida, New York etc and romp home. Just like in the UK, the number of individual votes doesn't mean a lot.

 

The US political system is particularly stupid in this regard. Really don't understand the relevance of the Electoral College for the Presidential election. It could easily be a straight up popular vote.

[PhilippineSaint]

Just looking forward to it all being over at the moment. It really isn't the media coverage that is doing my head in; more the grim spectacle of watching people pretend they know or care about politics.

 

The other thing that comes across is a general feeling that although the US has plenty of land, wealth and military power, I really don't get the sense of a country, at least not in the same way that this imperfect isle of immigrant cultures is. Maybe it's the space or the relative lack of roots, but the US increasingly looks like a place where the tribes of the old world happened to move. Can the US ever be "One Nation"?

 

Probably not when each individual state is technically a small country in its own right could you imagine Hampshire making its own laws up or Essex imposing prohibition?

[dubai_phil]

I expect perhaps with Jeb Bush .

 

Bloody hell, PLEASE tell me you are joking.

 

Went to a Charity event over here some years ago and actually had the misfortune to meet the man. Jesus H what a complete Personality Transplant donor - I'm struggling for an analogy here, but muliply "Condescending Slimeball" by a factor of about 20 and you get close. Would have not even found the entrance door for his GCSE's let alone be able to find where to write his name on the exam paper.

 

God help us all if that happens

[pap]

Bloody hell, PLEASE tell me you are joking.

 

Went to a Charity event over here some years ago and actually had the misfortune to meet the man. Jesus H what a complete Personality Transplant donor - I'm struggling for an analogy here, but muliply "Condescending Slimeball" by a factor of about 20 and you get close. Would have not even found the entrance door for his GCSE's let alone be able to find where to write his name on the exam paper.

 

God help us all if that happens

 

Ah, the man who facilitated the coup d'état in 2000.

 

(Tbf, the Americans called it an "election" )

[buctootim]

Am currently on a ship with 2,000 of our closest American cousins. Real mixed group so election night tomorrow could get interesting in the bars as tv results come in. Im looking for a good faux naive question or statement to make to kick a new civil war off after a day drinking in Playa del Carmen.

[PhilippineSaint]

Why are the party emblems Donkeys and Elephants? Then explain what a donkey means to a Brit and that Elephants are so scared of the little things they miss the big picture normally gets them going.

Edited 6 November, 2012 by PhilippineSaint

[CB Fry]

Why are the party emblems Donkeys and Elephants? Then explain what a donkey means to a Brit and that Elephants are so scared of the little things they miss the big picture normally gets them going.

 

 

I'd like to know why both logos are essentially the same except for the shape of the animal. Just nuts.

[PhilippineSaint]

I'd like to know why both logos are essentially the same except for the shape of the animal. Just nuts.

 

Thats probably because they really have only one party its just one faction is a little bit more right wing than Hitler was.

[Thedelldays]

Never knew that Obama initially tried to join the Republican Party

 

Another career politician then

[Doctoroncall]

 

Thought this was amusing!

[saintbletch]

Four more years.

 

Just watched his acceptance speech. He is one hell of a public speaker.

 

The electoral college numbers make it look like a big win but it was much closer in the communities that make up those block votes.

 

The US is massively divided now. I think I woke up hearing that 93% of the black vote went to Obama and a large proportion of the white male vote went to Romney. Add to that the animosity between the parties and it will make getting significant changes through their system pretty tough.

 

That's going to store up problems.

 

Good luck Mr. President.

[alpine_saint]

Four more years of Blair-like governance for the US. All fart and no sh*t.

 

Four more years of obsessing over Asia and negelct over Europe.

 

Four more years of asymmetrical trans-Atlantic relations.

 

Four more years of US mis-treatment of its closest ally because of a colossal chip on the shoulder of Mr. President.

 

Four more years of impotent US governance due to the Republican majority in the House.

 

Obama is a f**king useless public speaker without his little glass screens in front of him, as was proven in the first televised debate.

[saintbletch]

Four more years of Blair-like governance for the US. All fart and no sh*t.

 

Four more years of obsessing over Asia and negelct over Europe.

 

Four more years of asymmetrical trans-Atlantic relations.

 

Four more years of US mis-treatment of its closest ally because of a colossal chip on the shoulder of Mr. President.

 

Four more years of impotent US governance due to the Republican majority in the House.

 

Obama is a f**king useless public speaker without his little glass screens in front of him, as was proven in the first televised debate.

 

Well you illustrate well the impact of a chip on the shoulder alpine_saint.

 

You also illustrate well how you deal with defeat. From football to ideology, you are at least consistent.

 

I agree with your analysis of the issues the US will face, if not the colour you use to describe them.

 

But he's a f**king useless public speaker?

 

Sorry apline_saint, either I hadn't factored in that I'm a f**king useless listener or you're confusing debate with public speaking.

 

It would be interesting to put you or me on that stage standing behind that lecturn, script or no script. Would we be able to sell a message of hope to a divided nation and beyond to a wordwide audience? Especially after a long and gruelling campaign and when everyone watching already knows how impotent you're likely to be in the next four years - given that they've experienced the last four years.

 

I couldn't pull that off. Obama did.

[alpine_saint]

A question.

 

Is the USA more, or less racially divided as a result of an Obama presidency over the past 4 years ?

 

I mad a quick scan of the papers this morning for images of the election day in the US, and for me the racial division between Obama and Romney supports is very, very pronounced.

 

The whole notion of Obama as the first non-white US president was very noble, well-meaning, progressive, but imo its created a mess in that the US has gone in the opposite direction.

 

I cannot help wondering if Hillary Clinton would have achieved more.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Re: "Racial divide": The BBC coverage showed that in 2008 Obama got a higher % of the white vote than previous Democrat candidates.

 

There's an old adage in business that you never blame the customer. When you look at some of the rhetoric and anti-immigration policies of the Republicans it's no wonder that the support from Blacks and Latino is so low - wasn't a very senior Republican quoted as saying that they were in trouble because there weren't enough "angry white guys"?