Feminist activists urge 'women's voices' to be heard as they rally in Parliament

[doddisalegend]

from the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20066101

 

Describing feminism as an "unfinished revolution", UK Feminista says urgent action is also needed on improving the representation of women across public life and pressing for full equality in the workplace and tackling violence against women.

 

Do women have it that bad in todays society? Looking around my work place there are lots of women work colleges both higher up the management chain and earning far more than me today. Certainaly in the past woman didn't get the best of deals but in todays society are things still so unequal between men and woman? I'm totally surportive of tackling violence against woman (and children and men to be honest) but honestly I don't feel like I in someway have it better than most women I know.

Edited 24 October, 2012 by doddisalegend

[buctootim]

I actually think much of society is biased in women's favour - pensions, child custody, finacial rights after divorce. Women who enter politics or work a full 40 plus years career will likely be promoted faster and higher than men because there is pressure to redress the gender imbalance caused by many women choosing to stay at home for part of their careers. Many men would like to make the same choice but fewer have the opportunity.

[Frank's cousin]

... I think there is certainly a more equal deal when it comes to proessional roles, and it can be said that the main difference in Men and Womens pay is now more down to teh proportion that do specifuc types of job, than inequality in pay for the smae job (which is illegal)... but I think there is still a fair amount of sexism in many work places, and other insititutions, so speaking out against it is no bad thing - especially the violence that still exists behind too many closed curtains.

[trousers]

[ecuk268]

 

That was a woman??

[bridge too far]

I don't see any reason why men can't choose to stay at home for part of their working life. Why can't they?

 

Interesting juxtaposition of this news and this news http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-20054049.

 

Whilst professionally qualified women such as doctors, lawyers and teachers have payscales that mean they are paid the same as men, senior and middle managers don't have such transparent payscales.

 

It is generally accepted in these cases that women earn 85p for every £1 that a man doing a broadly equivalent job does.

 

Thankfully these days most men recognise joint caring and domestic duties but there are still dinosaurs out there who regard women as belonging further down a pecking order.

[buctootim]

I don't see any reason why men can't choose to stay at home for part of their working life. Why can't they?

 

Because most women dont want to go out to work to support them. The default expectation in society, and by extension in most couples, is that if one partner stays home it will be the woman and its only in cases where the woman doesnt want to stay home and she earns sufficent to make it possible that the man does instead - and that is rare.

[trousers]

I don't see any reason why men can't choose to stay at home for part of their working life. Why can't they?

 

I would happily be a 'house husband'. Going out to work is very much over-rated IMHO

[Thedelldays]

family courts, divorce and custody law is heavily skewed in the womans favour.

 

any woman who choses to have a kid and choses to go part time or take a break immediately drops on the pecking order IMO....if we are being gender fair of course

[bridge too far]

Because most women dont want to go out to work to support them. The default expectation in society, and by extension in most couples, is that if one partner stays home it will be the woman and its only in cases where the woman doesnt want to stay home and she earns sufficent to make it possible that the man does instead - and that is rare.

 

Judging by my experience both mine and that of my daughters, I would regard that as a sweeping generalisation. If it was imperative that my youngest daughter OR her husband had to stay at home to look after the children, it would be her husband - for purely economic reasons as she earns quite a bit more than him (he's a teacher).

 

My other daughter and her husband earn roughly the same but as he's self employed, she would probably be the one to stay at home if necessary.

 

However, both girls have to go back to work next summer when their maternity leave(s) expire, and both want to in order to keep their professional skills up to speed.

 

I would advise any woman to work if she can - heaven forbid but the couple might split up and she might then find it difficult to find work, having been out of the workplace for a while. That's what happened to me.

[buctootim]

Judging by my experience both mine and that of my daughters, I would regard that as a sweeping generalisation..........however, both girls have to go back to work next summer when their maternity leave(s) expire

 

So not a sweeping generalisation at all then - in fact bang on the money even in your own family. Your daughters are currently staying at home for a year for one child whilst their partners continue to work, they MAY go back to work but time will tell (and many change their minds), and will likely take more time off for any future children.

[bridge too far]

So not a sweeping generalisation at all then - in fact bang on the money even in your own family. Your daughters are currently staying at home for a year for one child whilst their partners continue to work, they MAY go back to work but time will tell (and many change their minds), and will likely take more time off for any future children.

 

No - they WILL go back to work (in fact they have to since they're receiving maternity pay) and they will want to too. I was talking about a scenario where perhaps one of the children needed constant care due to illness / disability.

 

Neither of them have, so far, taken much time off because one of their older children was ill (teachers aren't really allowed time off for such circumstances and, unfortunately, his wife, my daughter, doesn't get paid time off in such circumstances even though she's quite high up the food chain). The other daughter, luckily, can work from home in an emergency and, in any event, her self employed husband can step in if necessary.

 

My teacher SiL would have happily taken parental leave for a year had it been permitted. Unfortunately, as his wife had to have a C section, she would have been unable to return to work immediately for health reasons.

 

Neither of them will have any more children, but come the day men can breastfeed maybe more women would forego their maternity leave in favour of paternity leave.

[buctootim]

No - they WILL go back to work (in fact they have to since they're receiving maternity pay) and they will want to too. I was talking about a scenario where perhaps one of the children needed constant care due to illness / disability.

 

Neither of them have, so far, taken much time off because one of their older children was ill (teachers aren't really allowed time off for such circumstances and, unfortunately, his wife, my daughter, doesn't get paid time off in such circumstances even though she's quite high up the food chain). The other daughter, luckily, can work from home in an emergency and, in any event, her self employed husband can step in if necessary.

 

My teacher SiL would have happily taken parental leave for a year had it been permitted. Unfortunately, as his wife had to have a C section, she would have been unable to return to work immediately for health reasons.

 

Neither of them will have any more children, but come the day men can breastfeed maybe more women would forego their maternity leave in favour of paternity leave.

 

Im not saying they shouldnt stay at home, breastfeed etc - its the reality of biology that many women choose for good reasons to take time out of the workplace. Im simply pointing out that if you really delve into the 'gender pay gap' you'll find that in comparable jobs in comparable companies for people with comparable experience the pay gap doesnt exist. In fact for graduates and recent graduates - ie in general for people under 25 who havent yet had career breaks for children, women get paid more.

Edited 24 October, 2012 by buctootim

[bridge too far]

http://www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/index.asp?PageID=321

[buctootim]

Did you even read your own link? That says the pay gap is because of more women in part time work, doing unskilled jobs and taking career breaks for children.

[CB Saint]

It will be impossible to get 50 50 representation at a senior level in any business if the sole selection criteria is merit. There are more men working at that level that there are women, therefore the ratio cannot be met unless you force a quota. The pool will never equalise as more women choose to take a career break or choose a flexiblework pattern that suits their home life or don't won't the work loads that come with seniority. I beleive that a man and a woman starting work today have exactly the same opportunities to progress. The wild card is child birth and the woman's choices that she makes at that point.

 

I do think that over the coming years that this gap will narrow. Far more men are taking time out because the woman earns a greater salary and I beleive that this will further be improved with the ability to transfer parental leave.

 

As an aside, i am glad the EU have postponed the quota rule for booards. That would completelyundermine the aheivemnets of any woman who had got onto the board through their own merits as everyone would be asking are they good or just the token woman appointment.

[bridge too far]

Did you even read your own link? That says the pay gap is because of more women in part time work, doing unskilled jobs and taking career breaks for children.

 

I think you're cherry picking a bit:

 

 

• The full-time gender pay gap between women and men is 14.9 per cent
  
• The pay gap varies across sectors and regions, rising to up to 55% in the finance sector and up to 33.3% in the City of London
  
• Interruptions to employment due to caring work account for 14% of the gender pay gap
  
• 64% of the lowest paid workers are women, contributing not only to women's poverty but to the poverty of their children
  
• There are almost four times as many women in part-time work as men. Part-time workers are likely to receive lower hourly rates of pay than full-time workers.
  
• Nine out of ten lone parents are women. The median gross weekly pay for male single parents is £346, while for female single parents it is £194.4
  

 

I've cherry picked too - the bits in bold are nothing to do with 'career breaks' (lol) and reflect a level playing field in terms of hours worked and associated pay received.

 

Perhaps women should give up on having children, eh?

 

I think most women would agree that they should be paid equally for equal value work and that they shouldn't be sidelined because they choose (on their own without any input from their partners) to have children.

 

Regardless of my sex, I'd be pretty ****ed off if a person sitting next to me received more money for doing exactly the same job.

[CB Saint]

http://www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/index.asp?PageID=321

 

I hate these all encompassing surveys - they distort the truth too much. Show me a survey that compares apples with apples e.g. solicitiors. I seem to remember when we were debating private vs public sector pay and the average private sector pay was coming out lower, you said that it was because all the low paid jobs had been transferred to the private sector and had therefore distorted the figures.

[bridge too far]

I hate these all encompassing surveys - they distort the truth too much. Show me a survey that compares apples with apples e.g. solicitiors. I seem to remember when we were debating private vs public sector pay and the average private sector pay was coming out lower, you said that it was because all the low paid jobs had been transferred to the private sector and had therefore distorted the figures.

 

And as a generalisation that's true. But that doesn't explain or address the difference WITHIN THE PRIVATE SECTOR of the rates of pay for the same job, does it? As is demonstrated, for example, in the figures for the financial services industry.

 

Generally, public sector wages are more equal. This is in part becauise government departments have to publish audited figures to show rates of pay. The case heard to day centres around the fact that Birmingham council had agreed to equalise wages for broadly similar jobs but challenged the right of women who had retired / left to fall into this judgement due to the length of time between their departure and their bringing their case. The Council lost their case and these women can proceed to have their case heard in the Supreme Court (I think).

[buctootim]

And as a generalisation that's true. But that doesn't explain or address the difference WITHIN THE PRIVATE SECTOR of the rates of pay for the same job, does it? As is demonstrated, for example, in the figures for the financial services industry.

 

 

But you havent demonstrated anything btf. In fact the only link you provided contradicted you. Your posts are about citing discrepancies in pay without actually looking at the issues why. City pay is distorted by a a relatively small number of people earning mega money for working very long hours under high pressure. I chose not to live like that. The majority of people who do choose that are men up to about 35 who enjoy that 'shafting people' culture. Not unsurprisingly bank tellers in your local branch earn a lot less- mostly women because the hours are good and the job is local.

 

As I said - accurately compare job for job in the same industry with the same experience and you wont find a pay gap. The real argument is whether or not women who chose to stay at home looking after children (or men for that matter) should be given equal pay with those men and women who havent taken a career break and have built up more seniority or experience. Having children is a choice people make and youy make sacrifices to do it. I dont have the flash car, michelin restaurants and holidays I would have had without children. You make your choices and accept the results - you cant expect other people who have made different choices to subsudise those who want to take time out to raise kids.

Edited 24 October, 2012 by buctootim

[bridge too far]

Tim, I accept some of the points you make but the salient point is that, for a variety of reasons, a lot of women are being paid less for doing the same job. And the point about people (not just women) choosing to have children is a distraction. There has to be a future generation and someone has to care for that generation, be it a father or a mother. I suspect a man taking a 'career break' would not be penalised upon his return to work in the same way as some women are.

 

If you read the article thoroughly, you will see that it isn't just about pay. It's about attitudes too - the hostility some women experience because they struggle to balance work and family, since they do most of the caring for example.

 

The final sentences in the link are telling:

 

The Government must encourage shared parenting through promoting a system of flexible parental leave, as committed to in its Coalition Programme published in May 2010. Women’s disproportionate caring responsibilities are a key factor in the discrimination faced by women at work. There is little support or encouragement for fathers to spend more time caring. This is bad for fathers, mothers and children who would benefit if care was shared more equally.

[buctootim]

Tim, I accept some of the points you make but the salient point is that, for a variety of reasons, a lot of women are being paid less for doing the same job. And the point about people (not just women) choosing to have children is a distraction. There has to be a future generation and someone has to care for that generation, be it a father or a mother. I suspect a man taking a 'career break' would not be penalised upon his return to work in the same way as some women are.

 

If you read the article thoroughly, you will see that it isn't just about pay. It's about attitudes too - the hostility some women experience because they struggle to balance work and family, since they do most of the caring for example.

 

The final sentences in the link are telling:

 

The Government must encourage shared parenting through promoting a system of flexible parental leave, as committed to in its Coalition Programme published in May 2010. Women’s disproportionate caring responsibilities are a key factor in the discrimination faced by women at work. There is little support or encouragement for fathers to spend more time caring. This is bad for fathers, mothers and children who would benefit if care was shared more equally.

 

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/75-001-x/2009103/article/10823-eng.htm#a1

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/04/16/its-time-that-we-end-the-equal-pay-myth/

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-13/don-t-blame-discrimination-for-gender-wage-gap.html

Edited 24 October, 2012 by buctootim

[bridge too far]

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/75-001-x/2009103/article/10823-eng.htm#a1

http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2012/04/16/its-time-that-we-end-the-equal-pay-myth/

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-13/don-t-blame-discrimination-for-gender-wage-gap.html

 

I'm not very good at understanding statistical data as presented in the first link. The other two links cite reasons why women earn less (in the US) but don't address the crucial point about being paid an equal amount for equal work. An example might be that an hourly paid man earns more per hour than an early paid woman. that's nothing to do with men 'working longer hours', it's about EQUAL pay for EQUAL work.

 

Another consideration in the 'caring' argument is that many women also have caring responsibilities at the other end of the age spectrum. I was lucky when my mother was ill - my boss only minded that the work was done on time, and didn't worry if I worked weekends to cover the time lost from taking my mother to hospital. But not all employers are that sensitive.

 

I suppose the answer might be to bung all children into nurseries asap and all old people into care. Then today's women could work long hours, ignore the housework, ignore the childcare and grandparent care and earn more money to pay for this.

 

Women make up 49% of the working population these days - a significant spending force and many industries would be bereft of experience and talent if they lost that workforce.

 

In summary - equal pay for equal work and a recognition that, if society expects women to do the bulk of caring, they must recognise these additional calls on their time by not discriminating against them.

[Special K]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-20069757

 

Interesting case. Good on the claimants for the result (mainly women, although a few fellas too). Hopefully this will address the ridiculous notion that employers can pay women less than blokes for jobs of an equivalent nature.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

Tim, I accept some of the points you make but the salient point is that, for a variety of reasons, a lot of women are being paid less for doing the same job. And the point about people (not just women) choosing to have children is a distraction. There has to be a future generation and someone has to care for that generation, be it a father or a mother. I suspect a man taking a 'career break' would not be penalised upon his return to work in the same way as some women are.

 

 

But you haven't demonstrated that women get paid less for doing the same job.

 

It's obvious that people taking career breaks drop down the pecking order and only fair. This would be the same for men in my industry.

[bridge too far]

But you haven't demonstrated that women get paid less for doing the same job.

 

It's obvious that people taking career breaks drop down the pecking order and only fair. This would be the same for men in my industry.

 

And I can't because I'm neither a researcher nor a statistician. I can only cite information posted by organisations that have done such research and I quoted information from the Fawcett Society (the financial sector was a case in point).

 

But I would refer you to the Birmingham City Council female workers. Those still working for the council won their case a while back. It was demonstrated that, whilst they were getting the same hourly rate as their male counterparts, they weren't getting the bonuses that the men were. Birmingham Council is liable for at least £615m in payments to these women and, potentially, £3bn if yesterday's court case upholds the claims of those who retired / left 6 years ago and who were initially considered to be ineligible

 

http://www.payrollworld.com/article/887

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-20054049

[derry]

I'm all for equality, for a start prison sentencing should be the same.

[anothersaintinsouthsea]

And I can't because I'm neither a researcher nor a statistician. I can only cite information posted by organisations that have done such research and I quoted information from the Fawcett Society (the financial sector was a case in point).

 

But I would refer you to the Birmingham City Council female workers. Those still working for the council won their case a while back. It was demonstrated that, whilst they were getting the same hourly rate as their male counterparts, they weren't getting the bonuses that the men were. Birmingham Council is liable for at least £615m in payments to these women and, potentially, £3bn if yesterday's court case upholds the claims of those who retired / left 6 years ago and who were initially considered to be ineligible

 

http://www.payrollworld.com/article/887

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-20054049

 

Well I could easily split hairs and point out that they were on the same grade not doing the same job. Having said that I do agree that the Birmingham council situation was sexist and wrong. Pay AND bonuses should be the same across grades. I guess a wider point here would be that paying street cleaners etc £30k a year was rediculous in the first place.