Is Lallana part of our problem?

[Sidney Fudpucker the 3rd]

Had a very interesting conversation with a fellow Saints fan this evening. His theory is that AL needs to be dropped as he's a big part of our current problem. He feels that the criticism of Fox has been a bit unfair as AL doesn't provide him with any cover when he plays in front of him. Basically AL should play in the hole behind a front man but not out wide.

At first I was sceptical about his comments but on talking it through I have to say I'm inclined to agree. As soon as GR returns AL should spend some time on the bench. He certainly shouldn't be captain. We both feel that role would be better suited to SD. I know others on here have said the same thing.

The other point of conversation was that we both agreed that Chaplow should be in the team whilst Cork is sidelined. A midfield with Chaplow, Spiderman, Punch and Davies would be our best bet at the moment.

 

Just wondered what others thought?

[Dig Dig]

I think you're silly

[Ludwig]

I agree with you, but only to an extent. I'd say that this isn't Lallana's fault, the same happens with Jason Puncheon and we seem to be set up with wide attackers pushing forward as part of a front three, so to claim they ought to be responsible for consistently protecting the full-back is absurd. However, it is the case that our full-backs aren't getting enough protection and that we're generally set up wrong, nothing to do with Lallana or anything.

 

In fact, here's a short (long) exposition of where I think we've gone wrong tactically so far this season:

 

Let's start off where you (sort of) did: our wingers have been too high up the pitch, playing more like a 4-3-3 than a 4-5-1, even when we don't have the ball.

 

This puts additional stress on the full-backs who've been isolated and targetted far too often this season. Danny Fox has been poorly positioned too often and leaving him exposed has accentuated this fact, leaving us very weak. Similarly, being exposed has not been great when Yoshida has played at left-back, because he doesn't look positionally comfortable there either. Clyne did very well there against Villa, swapping flank as a full-back isn't 'too' difficult so this demonstrates that having a competent left-back (replacing Fox) would help us, even if they're currently left exposed too often.

 

Not having the wingers apply pressure appropriately puts greater stress on the centre of midfield, which highlights our next weakness. Our midfield is not 'defensive' enough. Not 'defensive' does NOT require tackles, however, it does require energy, pressing and intelligence to make interceptions. In Morgan Schneiderlin, when taking into account his passing ability, we have an excellent one of these already. However, if we're playing with a midfield provided insufficient support from the attackers, we need another one in order to prevent teams from waltzing through our midfield and provide our defence more cover. We are really missing Jack Cork. James Ward-Prowse is a player who's shown he's capable of playing this role, and although he's performed well when called upon, lacks consistency and can't yet be relied upon. We need a little more experience and Cork would have provided this, we haven't found an adequate way to play a balanced midfield trio consistently without him. I would say we need to sign another such midfielder as back-up (or even demoting Cork to squad/back-up). Maybe we were a little premature to loan out Dean Hammond, I could see him having played a role in some matches this season given how we've performed.

 

Our defence panics too often and appears to lacks confidence. We have made too many clumsy errors, silly mistakes etc. and have capitulated under pressure or conceded quickly in succession. This is a manifestation of a lack of confidence and experience. We should have signed a centre-back with PL experience over Summer. I didn't think this at the time, but I think this would have been the best way to ensure we sign a player with the correct mentality and temperament to step up. However, even now, I cannot think of any suitable candidates, which is quite problematic. Alternately, another solution would have been a consistent goalkeeping choice who inspires confidence in the defence. We should've signed a first-choice keeper (Boruc, perhaps) who inspired confidence and calmness from the back, capable of exerting authority and organising his defence. Should've been signed early in pre-season, in order to bed and settle him in. The lack of this kind of figure, with the defence having lost confidence in Davis early, has proved very problematic for us. I don't think our defenders are particularly worse than those Swansea or Norwich started last season with - both of them provided better support for their defences and both had very good goalkeepers, which is probably a more important factor than the specific personnel occupying the defensive roles.

 

 

So, defending has been our problem. I think we could have improved on this by having:

 

1) Wingers playing deeper and offering more comprehensive protection to their full-backs

2) A left-back whose positioning is more competent than Danny Fox's

3) Two midfielders whose purpose is keeping play simple whilst providing great energy and purpose to win and retain possession (we currently only play with Schneiderlin fulfilling such a role - the return of Cork will be vital)

4) Greater confidence and authority shown by our defensive unit, which could have been solved by either/or

4i) Signing a defender who is calm and assured under pressure, preferably with Premier League experience

4ii) Signing a goalkeeper (early in pre-season) who inspires confidence and organizes his defence

 

There are also problems with our attacking philosophy displayed thus far, what are the problems when attempting to go forward?

 

We are clearly trying to continue in a similar vein to our successful style from last season, one of the key aspects was overlapping full-backs and getting in crosses, which we're not managing to effectively do, but our full-backs are still getting high up the pitch more often than not, which means they're caught out of position. We can't have wingers not tracking back well enough in addition to full-backs attempting to overlap. One or the other please - I think our wingers should be tracking back better and playing deeper.

 

We're playing with inverted wingers, which means we fire in fewer crosses from our wingers than previously. This is endemic of our trying to play pretty football and is stylistically admirable but not pragmatic considering some of the strengths we possess. We've been very good at scoring from crosses, with strong headers in the side (SRL, J-Rod, Gaston can all head a ball). Yet in open play our style with inverted wingers is not conducive to putting enough balls into the box. We're not getting goals or too much effectiveness (against poorer sides who we should be competing with) from wingers cutting in, so should keep it simpler and play to our strengths. Or, ideally, have our wingers swap flanks - something I haven't noticed happening often enough this season. I think that would be pretty effective.

 

We need to play a little deeper, bring our wingers back a bit and whip in more crosses. Our players aren't of the individual quality to pull of our current style to maximum efficiency, nor does it bring out the results potential of our players. Personally, I would line up like this (in an ideal world):

 

 

-----------------------Boruc----------------------

--------------------------------------------------

--Clyne-------Fonte----------Yoshida-------NEW--

--------------------------------------------------

------------Schneiderlin------Cork-----------------

--Puncheon-----------------------------Lallana---

----------------------Ramirez---------------------

-------------------------------------------------

----------------------Lambert---------------------

 

Against sides we expect to struggle against, I'd start with Mayuka/J-Rod and bring on Lambert as an impact sub. Though SRL is talismanic at present, he doesn't offer enough as a pressing outlet. Mayuka and Rodriguez are both far more mobile and are both capable of holding up the ball.

 

Similarly, against better sides, I'd drop Puncheon for Steven Davis, play Ramirez on the wing and drop Davis into midfield, with Ramirez/Lallana interchangeably playing as more advanced wide players.

 

At home, we'd be more fluid, with full-backs encouraged to overlap, Ramirez given a free role and Puncheon/Lallana swapping flanks and being encourage to put more balls onto the heads of our strikers.

[the stain]

Did that really only take 7 minutes to type out?

[Ziggy]

So drop Lallana for Chaplow? Yes that sounds like a great idea. And people are having a go at Nigel ............

[Asaint4ever]

I agree with you, but only to an extent. I'd say that this isn't Lallana's fault, the same happens with Jason Puncheon and we seem to be set up with wide attackers pushing forward as part of a front three, so to claim they ought to be responsible for consistently protecting the full-back is absurd. However, it is the case that our full-backs aren't getting enough protection and that we're generally set up wrong, nothing to do with Lallana or anything.

 

In fact, here's a short (long) exposition of where I think we've gone wrong tactically so far this season:

 

Let's start off where you (sort of) did: our wingers have been too high up the pitch, playing more like a 4-3-3 than a 4-5-1, even when we don't have the ball.

 

This puts additional stress on the full-backs who've been isolated and targetted far too often this season. Danny Fox has been poorly positioned too often and leaving him exposed has accentuated this fact, leaving us very weak. Similarly, being exposed has not been great when Yoshida has played at left-back, because he doesn't look positionally comfortable there either. Clyne did very well there against Villa, swapping flank as a full-back isn't 'too' difficult so this demonstrates that having a competent left-back (replacing Fox) would help us, even if they're currently left exposed too often.

 

Not having the wingers apply pressure appropriately puts greater stress on the centre of midfield, which highlights our next weakness. Our midfield is not 'defensive' enough. Not 'defensive' does NOT require tackles, however, it does require energy, pressing and intelligence to make interceptions. In Morgan Schneiderlin, when taking into account his passing ability, we have an excellent one of these already. However, if we're playing with a midfield provided insufficient support from the attackers, we need another one in order to prevent teams from waltzing through our midfield and provide our defence more cover. We are really missing Jack Cork. James Ward-Prowse is a player who's shown he's capable of playing this role, and although he's performed well when called upon, lacks consistency and can't yet be relied upon. We need a little more experience and Cork would have provided this, we haven't found an adequate way to play a balanced midfield trio consistently without him. I would say we need to sign another such midfielder as back-up (or even demoting Cork to squad/back-up). Maybe we were a little premature to loan out Dean Hammond, I could see him having played a role in some matches this season given how we've performed.

 

Our defence panics too often and appears to lacks confidence. We have made too many clumsy errors, silly mistakes etc. and have capitulated under pressure or conceded quickly in succession. This is a manifestation of a lack of confidence and experience. We should have signed a centre-back with PL experience over Summer. I didn't think this at the time, but I think this would have been the best way to ensure we sign a player with the correct mentality and temperament to step up. However, even now, I cannot think of any suitable candidates, which is quite problematic. Alternately, another solution would have been a consistent goalkeeping choice who inspires confidence in the defence. We should've signed a first-choice keeper (Boruc, perhaps) who inspired confidence and calmness from the back, capable of exerting authority and organising his defence. Should've been signed early in pre-season, in order to bed and settle him in. The lack of this kind of figure, with the defence having lost confidence in Davis early, has proved very problematic for us. I don't think our defenders are particularly worse than those Swansea or Norwich started last season with - both of them provided better support for their defences and both had very good goalkeepers, which is probably a more important factor than the specific personnel occupying the defensive roles.

 

 

So, defending has been our problem. I think we could have improved on this by having:

 

1) Wingers playing deeper and offering more comprehensive protection to their full-backs

2) A left-back whose positioning is more competent than Danny Fox's

3) Two midfielders whose purpose is keeping play simple whilst providing great energy and purpose to win and retain possession (we currently only play with Schneiderlin fulfilling such a role - the return of Cork will be vital)

4) Greater confidence and authority shown by our defensive unit, which could have been solved by either/or

4i) Signing a defender who is calm and assured under pressure, preferably with Premier League experience

4ii) Signing a goalkeeper (early in pre-season) who inspires confidence and organizes his defence

 

There are also problems with our attacking philosophy displayed thus far, what are the problems when attempting to go forward?

 

We are clearly trying to continue in a similar vein to our successful style from last season, one of the key aspects was overlapping full-backs and getting in crosses, which we're not managing to effectively do, but our full-backs are still getting high up the pitch more often than not, which means they're caught out of position. We can't have wingers not tracking back well enough in addition to full-backs attempting to overlap. One or the other please - I think our wingers should be tracking back better and playing deeper.

 

We're playing with inverted wingers, which means we fire in fewer crosses from our wingers than previously. This is endemic of our trying to play pretty football and is stylistically admirable but not pragmatic considering some of the strengths we possess. We've been very good at scoring from crosses, with strong headers in the side (SRL, J-Rod, Gaston can all head a ball). Yet in open play our style with inverted wingers is not conducive to putting enough balls into the box. We're not getting goals or too much effectiveness (against poorer sides who we should be competing with) from wingers cutting in, so should keep it simpler and play to our strengths. Or, ideally, have our wingers swap flanks - something I haven't noticed happening often enough this season. I think that would be pretty effective.

 

We need to play a little deeper, bring our wingers back a bit and whip in more crosses. Our players aren't of the individual quality to pull of our current style to maximum efficiency, nor does it bring out the results potential of our players. Personally, I would line up like this (in an ideal world):

 

 

-----------------------Boruc----------------------

--------------------------------------------------

--Clyne-------Fonte----------Yoshida-------NEW--

--------------------------------------------------

------------Schneiderlin------Cork-----------------

--Puncheon-----------------------------Lallana---

----------------------Ramirez---------------------

-------------------------------------------------

----------------------Lambert---------------------

 

Against sides we expect to struggle against, I'd start with Mayuka/J-Rod and bring on Lambert as an impact sub. Though SRL is talismanic at present, he doesn't offer enough as a pressing outlet. Mayuka and Rodriguez are both far more mobile and are both capable of holding up the ball.

 

Similarly, against better sides, I'd drop Puncheon for Steven Davis, play Ramirez on the wing and drop Davis into midfield, with Ramirez/Lallana interchangeably playing as more advanced wide players.

 

At home, we'd be more fluid, with full-backs encouraged to overlap, Ramirez given a free role and Puncheon/Lallana swapping flanks and being encourage to put more balls onto the heads of our strikers.

Wake me up ZZZzz

[tajjuk]

No, he's been amongst our best performers this season.

 

it's debatable whether Chaplow is championship standard, if we had loaned him out this summer I could see him sitting on the bench of a lot of championship clubs.

[alpine_saint]

Had a very interesting conversation with a fellow Saints fan this evening. His theory is that AL needs to be dropped as he's a big part of our current problem. He feels that the criticism of Fox has been a bit unfair as AL doesn't provide him with any cover when he plays in front of him. Basically AL should play in the hole behind a front man but not out wide.

At first I was sceptical about his comments but on talking it through I have to say I'm inclined to agree. As soon as GR returns AL should spend some time on the bench. He certainly shouldn't be captain. We both feel that role would be better suited to SD. I know others on here have said the same thing.

The other point of conversation was that we both agreed that Chaplow should be in the team whilst Cork is sidelined. A midfield with Chaplow, Spiderman, Punch and Davies would be our best bet at the moment.

 

Just wondered what others thought?

 

I see a grain of truth in what you say, but I would rather NA read him the riot act about covering Fox first. Lallana is still one of our few players who have it in him to turn a game.

 

I also agree about Davis as captain and Chaplow in the team ; Chaplow is the closest player we have to CMFG currently, and its not just about haircut.

[Saint Garrett]

Chaplow shouldn't be playing in a premiership side.

[alpine_saint]

Chaplow shouldn't be playing in a premiership side.

 

Neither should about half of our current first XI; whats your point ?

[S-Clarke]

Neither should about half of our current first XI; whats your point ?

 

Fair point lol. (maybe not half, but a fair few!)

[Alanh]

AL is part of the problem in as much as the whole team is part of the problem. He's not been specifically responsible for any of the goals that we have conceded and most have come from individual mistakes by defenders. He's a player who can make things happen so presents more of a threat to the opposition than most other players in the squad. He puts in more than his fair share of defending and is capable of turning defence into attack better than most - i.e. the goal at Man City. I don't think dropping him is a sensible move but playing 4-4-1-1 and moving him into the hole behind the main striker or playing him in a flat midfield four in the same formation with GR in the hole would be worth a try.

[Window Cleaner]

If Lallana is being given a traditional midfield spot then he's probably part of the problem because he's more of an advanced attacking player than a midfielder per se. I'm sure that Ramirez was acquired to be one of a 3 man midfield with Lallana,Lambert and

one other being attributed the roles of the 3 front men. As Ramirez is unavailable we're obviously trying to squeeze Lallana into a role that just doesn't suit him. If Cork wasn't a permafixture in the treatment room this season we might fare better with he,Davis and Morgan in midfield and Lallana,Lambert and Puncheon in attack until Ramirez is fit again but at the moment injuries are dictating to us and we're doing what we can. If we had all the players available I think we might see better results, just like the 4-1 win against Villa which I think has been the only occasion where all (apart from Cork) were available.

[Special K]

He shouldn't be dropped, but he's no skipper. Give the armband to someone else who's got a voice (if there is one!) and let AL concentrate on his game.

[a1ex2001]

As long as we are playing 4-3-3 then the wingers cannot be expected to provide a huge amount of cover for the full backs, their number one priority is to join the attack and not leave our lone central forward isolated. If we were playing a traditional 4-4-2 then their role changes and they would be expected to provide much more cover.

 

The simple truth is we don't have the personel to play the formation we are, the back four simply isn't strong enough and we are not good enough going forward to play like Keegans Newcastle and back ourselves to out score the oposition. Sadly Adkins seems as set on the 4-4-3 as he is on making ridiculous blunders in player selections and substitutions, no other side in the world would leave out Lambert for Jay Rod or subsitiute their most effective players everytime they get a lead.

[pingwing]

Short answers, Fox isn't premier league standard, it shows. No matter what we do or how we set up he always looks exposed.

 

Lallana shouldn't really be captain but he's stuck about for a long time and we want him to stay.

 

Chaplow is no where near premier league standard, a 17 JWP is getting a lot more game time than him for a very good reason.

 

Punch is also L1 standard but a criminal lack of right wingers has left us playing the biggest waster of the ball in the premier league.

[Wiggles31]

The silly formation is a big part of the defensive problem.

 

4-2-3-1. We are not good enough to play a system like this yet. Means the attack minded players struggle to get back and defend, our wings are exposed hence both full backs are struggling a great deal.

[warsash saint]

Is that the same Lallana that has provided most assists this season ?

[RobM]

He shouldn't be dropped, but he's no skipper. Give the armband to someone else who's got a voice (if there is one!) and let AL concentrate on his game.

 

 

Lallana is captain because we want the entire team to play as he does. We want a mobile, fluid, creative and attacking team so we choose somebody to lead us who matches that description.

 

If we had a more defensive, solid and consistent captain we may, as a team, follow that lead. The captain does need to be consistent though IMO, so I'd give it to Morgan who seems a mainstay of our starting 11.

[Secret Site Agent]

I agree with you, but only to an extent. I'd say that this isn't Lallana's fault, the same happens with Jason Puncheon and we seem to be set up with wide attackers pushing forward as part of a front three, so to claim they ought to be responsible for consistently protecting the full-back is absurd. However, it is the case that our full-backs aren't getting enough protection and that we're generally set up wrong, nothing to do with Lallana or anything.

 

In fact, here's a short (long) exposition of where I think we've gone wrong tactically so far this season:

 

Let's start off where you (sort of) did: our wingers have been too high up the pitch, playing more like a 4-3-3 than a 4-5-1, even when we don't have the ball.

 

This puts additional stress on the full-backs who've been isolated and targetted far too often this season. Danny Fox has been poorly positioned too often and leaving him exposed has accentuated this fact, leaving us very weak. Similarly, being exposed has not been great when Yoshida has played at left-back, because he doesn't look positionally comfortable there either. Clyne did very well there against Villa, swapping flank as a full-back isn't 'too' difficult so this demonstrates that having a competent left-back (replacing Fox) would help us, even if they're currently left exposed too often.

 

Not having the wingers apply pressure appropriately puts greater stress on the centre of midfield, which highlights our next weakness. Our midfield is not 'defensive' enough. Not 'defensive' does NOT require tackles, however, it does require energy, pressing and intelligence to make interceptions. In Morgan Schneiderlin, when taking into account his passing ability, we have an excellent one of these already. However, if we're playing with a midfield provided insufficient support from the attackers, we need another one in order to prevent teams from waltzing through our midfield and provide our defence more cover. We are really missing Jack Cork. James Ward-Prowse is a player who's shown he's capable of playing this role, and although he's performed well when called upon, lacks consistency and can't yet be relied upon. We need a little more experience and Cork would have provided this, we haven't found an adequate way to play a balanced midfield trio consistently without him. I would say we need to sign another such midfielder as back-up (or even demoting Cork to squad/back-up). Maybe we were a little premature to loan out Dean Hammond, I could see him having played a role in some matches this season given how we've performed.

 

Our defence panics too often and appears to lacks confidence. We have made too many clumsy errors, silly mistakes etc. and have capitulated under pressure or conceded quickly in succession. This is a manifestation of a lack of confidence and experience. We should have signed a centre-back with PL experience over Summer. I didn't think this at the time, but I think this would have been the best way to ensure we sign a player with the correct mentality and temperament to step up. However, even now, I cannot think of any suitable candidates, which is quite problematic. Alternately, another solution would have been a consistent goalkeeping choice who inspires confidence in the defence. We should've signed a first-choice keeper (Boruc, perhaps) who inspired confidence and calmness from the back, capable of exerting authority and organising his defence. Should've been signed early in pre-season, in order to bed and settle him in. The lack of this kind of figure, with the defence having lost confidence in Davis early, has proved very problematic for us. I don't think our defenders are particularly worse than those Swansea or Norwich started last season with - both of them provided better support for their defences and both had very good goalkeepers, which is probably a more important factor than the specific personnel occupying the defensive roles.

 

 

So, defending has been our problem. I think we could have improved on this by having:

 

1) Wingers playing deeper and offering more comprehensive protection to their full-backs

2) A left-back whose positioning is more competent than Danny Fox's

3) Two midfielders whose purpose is keeping play simple whilst providing great energy and purpose to win and retain possession (we currently only play with Schneiderlin fulfilling such a role - the return of Cork will be vital)

4) Greater confidence and authority shown by our defensive unit, which could have been solved by either/or

4i) Signing a defender who is calm and assured under pressure, preferably with Premier League experience

4ii) Signing a goalkeeper (early in pre-season) who inspires confidence and organizes his defence

 

There are also problems with our attacking philosophy displayed thus far, what are the problems when attempting to go forward?

 

We are clearly trying to continue in a similar vein to our successful style from last season, one of the key aspects was overlapping full-backs and getting in crosses, which we're not managing to effectively do, but our full-backs are still getting high up the pitch more often than not, which means they're caught out of position. We can't have wingers not tracking back well enough in addition to full-backs attempting to overlap. One or the other please - I think our wingers should be tracking back better and playing deeper.

 

We're playing with inverted wingers, which means we fire in fewer crosses from our wingers than previously. This is endemic of our trying to play pretty football and is stylistically admirable but not pragmatic considering some of the strengths we possess. We've been very good at scoring from crosses, with strong headers in the side (SRL, J-Rod, Gaston can all head a ball). Yet in open play our style with inverted wingers is not conducive to putting enough balls into the box. We're not getting goals or too much effectiveness (against poorer sides who we should be competing with) from wingers cutting in, so should keep it simpler and play to our strengths. Or, ideally, have our wingers swap flanks - something I haven't noticed happening often enough this season. I think that would be pretty effective.

 

We need to play a little deeper, bring our wingers back a bit and whip in more crosses. Our players aren't of the individual quality to pull of our current style to maximum efficiency, nor does it bring out the results potential of our players. Personally, I would line up like this (in an ideal world):

 

 

-----------------------Boruc----------------------

--------------------------------------------------

--Clyne-------Fonte----------Yoshida-------NEW--

--------------------------------------------------

------------Schneiderlin------Cork-----------------

--Puncheon-----------------------------Lallana---

----------------------Ramirez---------------------

-------------------------------------------------

----------------------Lambert---------------------

 

Against sides we expect to struggle against, I'd start with Mayuka/J-Rod and bring on Lambert as an impact sub. Though SRL is talismanic at present, he doesn't offer enough as a pressing outlet. Mayuka and Rodriguez are both far more mobile and are both capable of holding up the ball.

 

Similarly, against better sides, I'd drop Puncheon for Steven Davis, play Ramirez on the wing and drop Davis into midfield, with Ramirez/Lallana interchangeably playing as more advanced wide players.

 

At home, we'd be more fluid, with full-backs encouraged to overlap, Ramirez given a free role and Puncheon/Lallana swapping flanks and being encourage to put more balls onto the heads of our strikers.

 

Hey, I bothered to read it. If you can't be bothered to read it, don't bother posting.

 

 

To Ludwig, I don't necessasily agree with you, but found it interesting. The notion of using SRL as an impact sub is bold, but only in so far that our plan B without him includes more pressure in the box, and less dawdling in midfield. I believe without him teams aren't too sure who to mark out, so we have an advantage, but you can't argue with his positioning and goal record.

I'm still a little bit of a traditionalist and would like to at least see us TRY 4-4-2. The problem is that we have a system and perhaps a few of the key cogs are misssing through injury.

[derry]

There is a solution. Dispense with a holding midfielder and play a defender in front of the two centre backs to sweep across in front of the back four and cover the space being exposed by the wide player not tracking back. That would cover the unreliability of the forwards in being too slow to counter a threat. Something we don't do well is stay with the attacker. Fonte lost Nolan on Saturday after initially picking him up but reverted to ball watching and wandered off freeing Nolan to knock the cross in. Once a player tracks an attacker they have to stay with that attacker and tight mark until the danger is dealt with. Picking up initially then letting the attacker free is suicide in the Premier. One of the reasons Dickson doesn't get a look in, is that Lallana doesn't want to play in front of him.

[tajjuk]

Logging on here is a stupid idea. Within seconds Adkins job is untenable, Lallana should be dropped and Redknapp is taking over.

 

Never seen the morons take over this much, which is saying something for this place. Most is predictable garbage from predictable people and I expected it to be bad, but even I'm stunned at just how pathetic the support on here is. Just seems like stereotypical football fans you'd mock and dislike if it were any other club. Starting to think most of you deserve Redknapp to be honest, you'd probably be very happy together.

 

I know how you feel, so many threads and posts on here make me want to just put the giant facepalm in reply.

 

The level of stupidity from some people is literally astonishing.

[Dig Dig]

There is a solution. Dispense with a holding midfielder and play a defender in front of the two centre backs to sweep across in front of the back four and cover the space being exposed by the wide player not tracking back. That would cover the unreliability of the forwards in being too slow to counter a threat. Something we don't do well is stay with the attacker. Fonte lost Nolan on Saturday after initially picking him up but reverted to ball watching and wandered off freeing Nolan to knock the cross in. Once a player tracks an attacker they have to stay with that attacker and tight mark until the danger is dealt with. Picking up initially then letting the attacker free is suicide in the Premier. One of the reasons Dickson doesn't get a look in, is that Lallana doesn't want to play in front of him.

 

 

Not this again derry!!! You say replace a DM with a CB playing the same position but how would that help other than to have a player in the middle who is not as technical and probably less mobile. If you're referring to a sweeper, why wouldn't they sit behind the back 4 rather than in front? As it is, the whole notion of a sweeper is ridiculously dated.

[Saint Charlie]

Not this again derry!!! You say replace a DM with a CB playing the same position but how would that help other than to have a player in the middle who is not as technical and probably less mobile. If you're referring to a sweeper, why wouldn't they sit behind the back 4 rather than in front? As it is, the whole notion of a sweeper is ridiculously dated.

 

Even if it might work in theory it would just become a back 5 that would be pushed back and invite pressure - exactly what we don't want.

 

Also - as per the suggestion this player would replace Schneiderlin, our best player this season...

 

Lallana is fine, the problem is simple - defensive personnel keep making silly mistakes because they arent good enough at this level where you get punished.

 

None of the goals at WH were because of the formation or Lallana - they were poor basic errors, no sweeper would have helped when Fonte pulled Carroll's hair, or the fact that Fonte, Jos nor Yoshida closed down Maiga.

[derry]

Not this again derry!!! You say replace a DM with a CB playing the same position but how would that help other than to have a player in the middle who is not as technical and probably less mobile. If you're referring to a sweeper, why wouldn't they sit behind the back 4 rather than in front? As it is, the whole notion of a sweeper is ridiculously dated.

 

What is obvious is your superficial knowledge of football tactics (Reading 'Inverting the Pyramid' by Jonathon Wilson might help but I doubt it). A sweeper is the free one of a man marking back four. A front sweeper is a defender that protects an orthodox back four. Schneiderlin plays deep but doesn't give the defensive cover across the field. A defender would do a better defensive job freeing up the two midfielders to join the front three. We have conceded 24 goals doing it the way we are, so that isn't working, putting in another defender could plug the holes. Fonte or Yoshida could do that job. It is a defender not a midfielder. It is only a small difference from five at the back, 3 CBs with wing backs.

[Dig Dig]

What is obvious is your superficial knowledge of football tactics (Reading 'Inverting the Pyramid' by Jonathon Wilson might help but I doubt it). A sweeper is the free one of a man marking back four. A front sweeper is a defender that protects an orthodox back four. Schneiderlin plays deep but doesn't give the defensive cover across the field. A defender would do a better defensive job freeing up the two midfielders to join the front three. We have conceded 24 goals doing it the way we are, so that isn't working, putting in another defender could plug the holes. Fonte or Yoshida could do that job. It is a defender not a midfielder. It is only a small difference from five at the back, 3 CBs with wing backs.

 

Ok I bow to your superior knowledge as you've read a book. I won't bother reading as I think I've go it now.

 

In summary, drop Morgan and instead play 3 CB's.

 

Obviously Adkins doesn't agree and I'm sure he's read more books and been on more courses then you even.

[Saint Charlie]

What is obvious is your superficial knowledge of football tactics (Reading 'Inverting the Pyramid' by Jonathon Wilson might help but I doubt it). A sweeper is the free one of a man marking back four. A front sweeper is a defender that protects an orthodox back four. Schneiderlin plays deep but doesn't give the defensive cover across the field. A defender would do a better defensive job freeing up the two midfielders to join the front three. We have conceded 24 goals doing it the way we are, so that isn't working, putting in another defender could plug the holes. Fonte or Yoshida could do that job. It is a defender not a midfielder. It is only a small difference from five at the back, 3 CBs with wing backs.

 

 

So its 3 CBs with wing backs? Essentially as follows:

 

The solution to frailities at full back is to push them higher up the pitch, leaving more space behind them?

 

The solution to defender making basic errors is to shove another one in there because then the individual errors will stop?

 

Look at the goals we concede - it is nothing to do with not having enough players back defending. It is the individual errors that some of those players are making.

 

If we play five at the back it will probably stop us from scoring, which is the one thing we are doing well.

Edited 24 October, 2012 by Saint Charlie

[derry]

Even if it might work in theory it would just become a back 5 that would be pushed back and invite pressure - exactly what we don't want.

 

Also - as per the suggestion this player would replace Schneiderlin, our best player this season...

 

Lallana is fine, the problem is simple - defensive personnel keep making silly mistakes because they arent good enough at this level where you get punished.

 

None of the goals at WH were because of the formation or Lallana - they were poor basic errors, no sweeper would have helped when Fonte pulled Carroll's hair, or the fact that Fonte, Jos nor Yoshida closed down Maiga.

 

It was my intention that Davis and Schneiderlin would still play as a pair in front of the extra defender. I personally would advocate three strikers in front of them. Maybe with a front sweeper the circumstances that led to the goals wouldn't have occurred, as there wouldn't have been the gaps and the marking should be tighter. 21 goals conceded in 6 defeats means the defence needs to be tightened up, obviously nobody playing in midfield at the moment can do that. Hence my suggestion of a front sweeper.

[derry]

So its 3 CBs with wing backs? Essentially as follows:

 

The solution to frailities at full back is to push them higher up the pitch, leaving more space behind them?

 

The solution to defender making basic errors is to shove another one in there because then the individual errors will stop?

 

Look at the goals we concede - it is nothing to do with not having enough players back defending. It is the individual errors that some of those players are making.

 

If we play five at the back it will probably stop us from scoring, which is the one thing we are doing well.

 

I think the off the cuff style of play passing about in midfield is all very nice but there is a lack of discipline which is leading to our inability to defend. Our players aren't good enough to play off the cuff and will relegate us unless we become more disciplined. We have to tighten up front to back and work harder. Ball watching by Fox and Fonte especially is a major problem.

[tajjuk]

What is obvious is your superficial knowledge of football tactics (Reading 'Inverting the Pyramid' by Jonathon Wilson might help but I doubt it). A sweeper is the free one of a man marking back four. A front sweeper is a defender that protects an orthodox back four. Schneiderlin plays deep but doesn't give the defensive cover across the field. A defender would do a better defensive job freeing up the two midfielders to join the front three. We have conceded 24 goals doing it the way we are, so that isn't working, putting in another defender could plug the holes. Fonte or Yoshida could do that job. It is a defender not a midfielder. It is only a small difference from five at the back, 3 CBs with wing backs.

 

Schneiderlin plays deep but doesn't sit in front of the back four you are correct, however what you describe is still the role of a midfielder. What you describe is essentially 5 at the back, or wing backs and is similar to what Barcelona did last year. The only reason you would ever consider a formation like this is when you get over run through the middle which isn't happening, we also do not have the players to adopt such a system. For the sweeper to be able to get out wide to help the fullbacks he would need to be very quick and comfortable under pressure when in possession. If he drops back into a central 3 he would need to be tall and good in the air, and the central defenders either side of him would need to be comfortable going wide to deal with danger from the wings and again none of our players are.

 

The quality of player you need to play such a position is very high, he needs to be a complete all rounder, be tactically and positionally sound whilst reading the game well to be in the right position at the right time, he would need the attributes of both a midfielder and central defender. We don't have such a player, it is not a case of just putting a defender there, it would be no help defensively, in fact it might cause so much confusion that it we become worst defensively, and we are then worse offensively because we have an extra defender on the pitch who is isn't good enough to contribute to the attacking phase.

 

Just wouldn't work, we don't have a good enough player to do it. Sergio Basquets has done it for Barca, Steven Gerrard could potentially play that role, Phil Jones could possibly do it and Rio from about 8 years ago could do it.

[derry]

Ok I bow to your superior knowledge as you've read a book. I won't bother reading as I think I've go it now.

 

In summary, drop Morgan and instead play 3 CB's.

 

Obviously Adkins doesn't agree and I'm sure he's read more books and been on more courses then you even.

 

You assume too much I only said put in a front sweeper, the midfield balance would still need Schneiderlin and Davis and three attackers. Either way, we have to stop conceding three goals a game and Fox, Fonte etc aren't going to improve overnight and the midfield isn't defending well either so they have to change something. Sooner or later the penny will drop.

 

If Adkins doesn't develop a bit of pragmatism, he will lose his job then somebody else will come in, ditch the free flowing possession and fight for points and be allowed to by a desperate chairman who won't want to be relegated.

[Saint Charlie]

It was my intention that Davis and Schneiderlin would still play as a pair in front of the extra defender. I personally would advocate three strikers in front of them. Maybe with a front sweeper the circumstances that led to the goals wouldn't have occurred, as there wouldn't have been the gaps and the marking should be tighter. 21 goals conceded in 6 defeats means the defence needs to be tightened up, obviously nobody playing in midfield at the moment can do that. Hence my suggestion of a front sweeper.

 

I cans see the point - but aside from a goal vs Arsenal and one vs Everton i don't see that the midfield have allowed lots of players to run through willy nilly.

 

Look at the goals - nearly all come from where the CBs don't clear effectively, or just their feet tangled, condede stupid penalites, slip, stick their leg out halfheartedly at shots going wide etc.

 

IMO this is not due to team shape. If the quality of thsoe players were better we would have conceded half the goals we have.

 

Add to this the fact Morgan Schneiderlin has (up to last week anyway) the most interceptions in the league then I feel that isn't the issue.

 

Think of these goals and ask if a back 5 would have actually helped:

 

Tevez - decent run, maybe keeper could do better but good goal. Pass could have been stopped.

Dzeko - No - stacks of defenders in box

Nasri - Individual error - stacks of defenders in box

 

Di Santo - see Tevez but decent goal

Kone - individual error

 

Van Persie - Slip, individual error - could have blocked cross

Van Persie - poor clearance leading to pressure - keeper should save Rio shot - stacks of defenders in box, nobody marking Rio

Van Persie - As above - loads of defenders there, nobody marking

 

Hooiveld OG - Could have stopped cross but def an individual error from tanglefooted Jos

Podolski - Free kick - indivdual error Davis - poor positioning, stupid foul Davis

Gervinho - good defensive shape but error Yoshida

Clyne OG - Not a lot he could do IMO

Gervinho - No clearance in box, stacks of defenders - tap in.

Walcott - Decent finish - can't remember build up

 

Bent - stacks of defenders - no clearance, individual error Fox (suprise bout of ball watching)

 

Osman - Stacks of defenders - beaten out wide, no clearance, second ball fell to them

Jelavic - quality finish, allowed to run through too easily - maybe 5 man defence could have helped

Jelavic - ball watching Richardson

 

Jos OG - Individual error - stacks of defenders, feet in a tangle. Very poor

Jos OG - Again, stacks of defenders, their attacker reacts first - deflected

 

Noble - Comedy of errors - stacks of defenders, no clearance, poor keeping

Nolan - Poor from Yoshida, Jos didn't close down, Fonte let Nolan go

Pen - Fonte - individual error - pony play

Maiga - Loads of defenders - neither Yoshida, Fonte or Hooiveld thought to tackle - quality finish

 

To be there doesn't seem to be a problem with teams carving through us at will - seems 80% + of the goals were poor play from the defenders - not overwhelmed by attackers but can't do the basics.

 

If there were five of them these mistakes could still easily happen.

 

The midfield are no worse than any other, especially in the centre and when MS plays, at defending - but they have to be able to rely on their CB colleagues to clear the ball and do their jobs.

Edited 24 October, 2012 by Saint Charlie

[derry]

Schneiderlin plays deep but doesn't sit in front of the back four you are correct, however what you describe is still the role of a midfielder. What you describe is essentially 5 at the back, or wing backs and is similar to what Barcelona did last year. The only reason you would ever consider a formation like this is when you get over run through the middle which isn't happening, we also do not have the players to adopt such a system. For the sweeper to be able to get out wide to help the fullbacks he would need to be very quick and comfortable under pressure when in possession. If he drops back into a central 3 he would need to be tall and good in the air, and the central defenders either side of him would need to be comfortable going wide to deal with danger from the wings and again none of our players are.

 

The quality of player you need to play such a position is very high, he needs to be a complete all rounder, be tactically and positionally sound whilst reading the game well to be in the right position at the right time, he would need the attributes of both a midfielder and central defender. We don't have such a player, it is not a case of just putting a defender there, it would be no help defensively, in fact it might cause so much confusion that it we become worst defensively, and we are then worse offensively because we have an extra defender on the pitch who is isn't good enough to contribute to the attacking phase.

 

Just wouldn't work, we don't have a good enough player to do it. Sergio Basquets has done it for Barca, Steven Gerrard could potentially play that role, Phil Jones could possibly do it and Rio from about 8 years ago could do it.

 

Very true, but we have a major weakness with the existing set up. All we have really are Yoshida or Fonte but at the moment we have to get through to January and pick up points. The present way isn't working and the 433 ish isn't helping some of the players who don't get it. 442ish is more natural to them so we have to change something. I wouldn't advocate a front sweeper if we switched to 442ish. MU adopted a modified diamond last night and went two nil down then went back to two up front and wide players to win 3-2.

[Saint Charlie]

Very true, but we have a major weakness with the existing set up. All we have really are Yoshida or Fonte but at the moment we have to get through to January and pick up points. The present way isn't working and the 433 ish isn't helping some of the players who don't get it. 442ish is more natural to them so we have to change something. I wouldn't advocate a front sweeper if we switched to 442ish. MU adopted a modified diamond last night and went two nil down then went back to two up front and wide players to win 3-2.

 

 

We certainly should be flexible during a game to change to get results - but it is clear we will be starting at least in a 4-3-3.

 

I would suggest that if any blame can be attached to the system it is far, far outweighed by the poor individual defensive performances that have been put in.

 

In addition - the games we did play more 4-4-2, Wigan 2nd half and Everton - we were passed around in the middle and couldn't get any real foothold.

 

The central 3 allows us to have decent possession, which we have in lots of games - we just need to tighten up at the back individually - and if the current players are not capable then its damage limitation til Jan until we get some who are.

[derry]

We certainly should be flexible during a game to change to get results - but it is clear we will be starting at least in a 4-3-3.

 

I would suggest that if any blame can be attached to the system it is far, far outweighed by the poor individual defensive performances that have been put in.

 

In addition - the games we did play more 4-4-2, Wigan 2nd half and Everton - we were passed around in the middle and couldn't get any real foothold.

 

The central 3 allows us to have decent possession, which we have in lots of games - we just need to tighten up at the back individually - and if the current players are not capable then its damage limitation til Jan until we get some who are.

 

With the 442 we didn't tighten up the midfield. It's an old saying defend in to out, attack out to in, therefore the defensive 442 requires the wide midfielders to close up with the central midfielders the whole moving across to stifle the threatened flank. MU playing 442 is very compact defensively even one or sometimes both of the strikers tighten up into midfield. Our players are not disciplined enough and don't press hard enough from front to back often not bothering to pick up. A lot of the goals we have conceded may have been avoided with better defending/delaying/pressing from the moment possession is first lost.

[up and away]

Had a very interesting conversation with a fellow Saints fan this evening. His theory is that AL needs to be dropped as he's a big part of our current problem. He feels that the criticism of Fox has been a bit unfair as AL doesn't provide him with any cover when he plays in front of him. Basically AL should play in the hole behind a front man but not out wide.

At first I was sceptical about his comments but on talking it through I have to say I'm inclined to agree. As soon as GR returns AL should spend some time on the bench. He certainly shouldn't be captain. We both feel that role would be better suited to SD. I know others on here have said the same thing.

The other point of conversation was that we both agreed that Chaplow should be in the team whilst Cork is sidelined. A midfield with Chaplow, Spiderman, Punch and Davies would be our best bet at the moment.

 

Just wondered what others thought?

 

 

It's not only Lallana, but this appplies to all of our forwards with the exception of Ramirez. They are just not good enough at this level and all come with some sort of baggage. It's then just a question who you think works well together and what they bring to the team. Of our forward players

 

Ricky: The best of a bad lot so far but requires someone dragged out of place alongside him to be effective. Lack of pace rules out the counter attack option.

Lallana: Has been getting up and down well but with minimal end product and devensive assists. Super goal against West Ham but how long has that been?

Rodriquez: Looking better and better but less end product than Lallana.

Puncheon: Puts in a half decent shift, just does not have the quality to be effective enough.

Guly: Mr Marmite, gets trounced even when he comes on and does the job required from his limited ability.

Mayuka: The one guy who does have pace and the possibility of changing things round for us. Have to give this lad every chance until we know for sure.

Ramirez: The one really class forward player who can make a difference, just not the Messiah and can't do it on his own.

Chaplow: We have about 5 versions of Chaplow, just one good enough for the Premierand not seen this season yet.

Chung: Definite possibilities, but until we can get him on the pitch, academic.

 

We have all seen that we can threaten teams with a concerted attack, it's just how it weakens us in other areas that causes all the concern with the balance of the side. We have to decide when we put a team out what formation and tactics best accentuate our positives and cover our negatives. Because of our abysmal defence we have to build this team from the back to stand any chance. Then when you have selected your defence and half your midfield you have to look at what sort of attack we can bring in alongside of this to be effective. This is a major issue along with not getting the defence entirely correct. We need to be playing 451 when defending with a pacey outlet spear heading the attack. We nearly got things right against West Ham but we just got that little bit ahead of ourselves. If the midfield had closed the gap to the defence and defended slightly deeper it possible we could have drawn West Ham onto us that little bit more and posed them more of a challenge.

In effect we can have some reasonable attack if we unbalance the side and expose the defence, equally we can solve part of the defensive issue at the cost of weakening the attack. with the midfield working their ****** off just treading water. IMHO it's going to be best to get the defence sorted to an acceptable working unit and try to do the maximum in attack with what's left over. That does not mean we can continually charge up and down in support of attack / defence because we already know how open we make the game and without the ability to keep the stamina up. You just have to leave the lone forward to chase 1/2 chances and work the cghannels, hoing the opposition overcommit on the attack to allow us a decent counter attack position or some form of dead ball to provide the threat. We were not that bad against West Ham apart from the basic slip ups of remembering our first priority is to defend and to be a little more ingenious in letting the opposition open themselves up for us.

[Jez]

Drop Lallana. Just wondered what others thought?

@ 12.32am

 

Seven minutes later @ 12.39am... 1,210 word analysis. 172 words typed per minute. Good job!!

 

You replying to yourself per chance?

[ottery st mary]

I make derry right and have been saying as much for some time.

 

Morgan is a good player and improving his all round game. The heading, tackling and shooting may take a while yet....The reason bigger clubs never take the gamble.

 

He is NOT best suited for the team in the role he is asked to play.

 

As stated Morgan and Davis in middle of midfield but with a true anchor/pivot/holding midfielder behind them and in front of the back four.

 

Until we find the right player it is better suited to Fonte in my opinion.

 

We also need Cork back..(match fit) from injury as soon as possible..

[tajjuk]

I cans see the point - but aside from a goal vs Arsenal and one vs Everton i don't see that the midfield have allowed lots of players to run through willy nilly.

 

Look at the goals - nearly all come from where the CBs don't clear effectively, or just their feet tangled, condede stupid penalites, slip, stick their leg out halfheartedly at shots going wide etc.

 

IMO this is not due to team shape. If the quality of thsoe players were better we would have conceded half the goals we have.

 

Add to this the fact Morgan Schneiderlin has (up to last week anyway) the most interceptions in the league then I feel that isn't the issue.

 

Think of these goals and ask if a back 5 would have actually helped:

 

Tevez - decent run, maybe keeper could do better but good goal. Pass could have been stopped.

Dzeko - No - stacks of defenders in box

Nasri - Individual error - stacks of defenders in box

 

Di Santo - see Tevez but decent goal

Kone - individual error

 

Van Persie - Slip, individual error - could have blocked cross

Van Persie - poor clearance leading to pressure - keeper should save Rio shot - stacks of defenders in box, nobody marking Rio

Van Persie - As above - loads of defenders there, nobody marking

 

Hooiveld OG - Could have stopped cross but def an individual error from tanglefooted Jos

Podolski - Free kick - indivdual error Davis - poor positioning, stupid foul Davis

Gervinho - good defensive shape but error Yoshida

Clyne OG - Not a lot he could do IMO

Gervinho - No clearance in box, stacks of defenders - tap in.

Walcott - Decent finish - can't remember build up

 

Bent - stacks of defenders - no clearance, individual error Fox (suprise bout of ball watching)

 

Osman - Stacks of defenders - beaten out wide, no clearance, second ball fell to them

Jelavic - quality finish, allowed to run through too easily - maybe 5 man defence could have helped

Jelavic - ball watching Richardson

 

Jos OG - Individual error - stacks of defenders, feet in a tangle. Very poor

Jos OG - Again, stacks of defenders, their attacker reacts first - deflected

 

Noble - Comedy of errors - stacks of defenders, no clearance, poor keeping

Nolan - Poor from Yoshida, Jos didn't close down, Fonte let Nolan go

Pen - Fonte - individual error - pony play

Maiga - Loads of defenders - neither Yoshida, Fonte or Hooiveld thought to tackle - quality finish

 

To be there doesn't seem to be a problem with teams carving through us at will - seems 80% + of the goals were poor play from the defenders - not overwhelmed by attackers but can't do the basics.

 

If there were five of them these mistakes could still easily happen.

 

The midfield are no worse than any other, especially in the centre and when MS plays, at defending - but they have to be able to rely on their CB colleagues to clear the ball and do their jobs.

 

Top post, about sums it up, all this rubbish about formations, style of play, substitutions, board room pressures, none of it is relevant.

 

Individual defensive errors have cost us points. Our attacking play, formation and general team shape has been good enough to earn us far more than the 4pts we have but we have gifted easy goals to virtually every team we played. West Ham is a clear example of this, we were away from home but controlling the game and looked more likely to create something an score, suddenly in two minutes of madness we gifted the opposition the game.

 

Very true, but we have a major weakness with the existing set up. All we have really are Yoshida or Fonte but at the moment we have to get through to January and pick up points. The present way isn't working and the 433 ish isn't helping some of the players who don't get it. 442ish is more natural to them so we have to change something. I wouldn't advocate a front sweeper if we switched to 442ish. MU adopted a modified diamond last night and went two nil down then went back to two up front and wide players to win 3-2.

 

We don't have the wide players for 4-4-2 IMO, in the Championship we did well with 4-4-2 because it turned out that essentially man for man we were better than a lot of teams, also our wide players were relatively quick in that league, but in the premiership Lallana isn't quick enough to play an MR or ML IMO, he will end up more often than not too far away from the goal to be a threat. Same goes for the otherside, Puncheon isn't good enough nor is he that quick. Man Utd in Valencia have one of the best traditional wingers in the premiership, he hugs the touch line, is quick, can cross and can dribble past his man. He gives them width that you need in a 4-4-2, Lallana and Puncheon aren't wingers, they are Attacking Midfielders, they want the ball and come inside to get it.

 

Personally I think the formation we play is a natural fit for the players we have, I also don't think we have seen enough of our full strength team yet. Yoshida is still settling and due to injuries to clyne and richardson has had to play out position. The keeper position has changed 3 times which own;t help the back four, our star playmaker has played 2 1/2 games, our new wide pace man has picked up an injury and hasn't been fit to start.

 

I think this is our strongest team in our strongest formation if all fit:-

 

Boruc

Richardson Fonte Yoshida Clyne

Schneiderlin Davis

Mayuka Gaston Lallan

Lambert

 

Boruc needs game time to get match fit and sharp, when he does he will be quality.

 

The wide combinations will work well, Mayuka has the pace and trickery to play as a more traditional wide player, getting at his man, knocking it into space and crossing form the byline. This will put less emphasis on Richardson to get forward, he can instead be a little more cautious but still be in position to cross from deep positions diagonally to Rickie who peels onto the right full back.

 

Lallan is close to the goal where we need him cutting in and linking with Rickie and Gaston, he will also open up space for Clyne to run into who has the pace to be a more attacking full back.

 

Davis and Morgan can protect the back four but also the 3 man combination with Gaston means you have 3 quality passes in the midfield to retain possession, but the presence of gaston in front of them puts less pressure on them to join the attack.

 

The system and set up has generally work well at creating chances and keeping possession. And statistically we aren't conceding a mass load of chances but the defensive errors just make it too easy to score against us.

[This Charming Man]

I wonder if other teams have threads on dropping their most creative and effective players? Isn't he joint top of the Premier League assist chart?

 

I'm just at a loss as to how constant woeful defending should be blamed on our left winger. Strange, strange theory.

[Gemmel]

Wow a genuine football debate, with varying opinions, rational explanations and no slagging off of other posters.

 

You lot sure, you are on the right forum.

[RobM]

To be there doesn't seem to be a problem with teams carving through us at will - seems 80% + of the goals were poor play from the defenders - not overwhelmed by attackers but can't do the basics.

 

If there were five of them these mistakes could still easily happen.

 

The midfield are no worse than any other, especially in the centre and when MS plays, at defending - but they have to be able to rely on their CB colleagues to clear the ball and do their jobs.

 

Quote snipped so not to drown the thread in quotes...

 

Just thinking aloud really, but a lot of these seem to be positional - so could zonal marking be our problem?

[tajjuk]

Quote snipped so not to drown the thread in quotes...

 

Just thinking aloud really, but a lot of these seem to be positional - so could zonal marking be our problem?

 

Possibly but I would put it down to decision making and concentration of individual players not being good enough.

[RobM]

Possibly but I would put it down to decision making and concentration of individual players not being good enough.

 

I do agree, I think there is a definite quality problem, but if we're asking players to play at a level they can't quite match (yet?) as well as play a different style to their and our (as a teams) previous style that everyone was used to, it could be contributing and could be a quick-win.

[Saint Charlie]

We aren't doing zonal marking anymore interestingly...

[SNSUN]

He's no central midfielder, he plays better as an attacking player. Against Man U in that advanced role, I thought he was excellent. IMO of course.

[Window Cleaner]

He's no central midfielder, he plays better as an attacking player. Against Man U in that advanced role, I thought he was excellent. IMO of course.

 

And against MU we played 3 bonafide CM players, as we did against Villa (well if you count Gaston as a CM anyway).

As you say Lallana isn't a CM and he shouldn't be played there. Until Gaston or Cork are fit (because I'm not overenamoured of JWP as yet) we should play Guly in CM with Punch,SRL and AL in the more advanced positions.

[Charlie Wayman]

Probably best we don't start picking all our players to bits on here. They all have good days and bad days. It is naive to think that there is a single cause for all our woes and a single cure. Why single out Lallana?

[up and away]

You assume too much I only said put in a front sweeper, the midfield balance would still need Schneiderlin and Davis and three attackers. Either way, we have to stop conceding three goals a game and Fox, Fonte etc aren't going to improve overnight and the midfield isn't defending well either so they have to change something. Sooner or later the penny will drop.

If Adkins doesn't develop a bit of pragmatism, he will lose his job then somebody else will come in, ditch the free flowing possession and fight for points and be allowed to by a desperate chairman who won't want to be relegated.

We have seen defensive midfielders do this job many times before and looks to me as the only answer to our problems. What I assume we are talking about here is a player that covers just in front of the back four such any pressing he makes upon the forward makes the job easier for our defence. If this defensive midfielder consistently acts in a known manner it will make the defenders job far easier, remembering this still comes with a central midfield pairing just in front of the defensive midfielder. I thought Fonte did part of that job well against West Ham, being able to bring the ball out of defence and carry it forward a vital requirement. To work well it has to be pretty compact such any attacker who gets past the floating defender does not have the time and space to attack the final line as effectively. We just cannot play it as open as we did against Everton or West Ham at times, we have to deny space and keep things compact. We then have to accept we cannot provide as much of an attacking threat as we usually do, but that's better than ruining the whole objective with what is practically unachieveable.

[Bailey]

Wow a genuine football debate, with varying opinions, rational explanations and no slagging off of other posters.

 

You lot sure, you are on the right forum.

 

Shut up you *****!