isorry Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 I've resisted coming on to this forum all season as I remember how quick people are to complain. A couple of years ago I thought I might never see Southampton in the Premier League again, and I'm not very old. We've only played 8 games and we're not adrift at the bottom, and that's after a ridiculous first 4 games (in which we outplayed Man Utd). We always used to win one of our first 8 in my memory anyway. Half of our goals conceded have been against Man City, Man Utd, and Arsenal. We lost 6-1 away at Arsenal and got to the final of the FA Cup and came 10th(i think?) in the Premier League in 2003. It just happens sometimes in the Premier League. Yes the defence has been a bit shambolic but even without any additions, a bit more confidence, fewer injured full backs, and getting the run of the ball for a game or two would probably sort it out. My own theory is that losing out on all of those opening games left them a bit rattled and they've not been able to settle in to the league yet. So can't we wait for them to do that? Mistakes have been made, and I know nothing about goings on behind the scenes, but we are in a position I dreamed of being in the very recent past, and I wish everyone would just enjoy it. I don't understand why Lambert is being used so sparingly, and repeatedly taken off when we're winning when it's so much easier for the opposition when he isn't on the pitch. BUT why are so many people ignoring that over the years changing the manager every other season hasn't worked all that well? And not just for Southampton. Especially when you sack a promising manager who is yet to reach his full potential and replace him with someone with proven mediocrity. Adkins is one of the most interesting, ambitious, and thoughtful managers I've seen and i'd love to go back to the days (before I followed Southampton) when we kept a manager for 10 or more years, then you can actually support the same team for a prolonged period. Reading comments about needing someone like Redknapp in order to move forward is scary. I mean come onnnn, just get a grip of yourselves!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 (edited) Good post but and agree with most of what you have written but it will fall on deaf ears to those who think they know better. Edited 23 October, 2012 by Dig Dig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 Yeah, Remember where we were 3 years ago you suckers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miltonroader07 Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 I agree with the above we have come a long way since three years. The issues being discussed are all valid; our manager is not up to the Prem IMO and the defense needs drastic help. Getting behind the team is the key and look at the gap between relegation and safety; I think it is 4 points !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 (edited) A good post. And considering how far we have come so quickly it is not a surprise that something would eventually go wrong. Our style of play is so good to watch when in full flow yet our attack cannot compensate for our defence any more. For that first half against West Ham it actually looked as though we had cracked it, Jos was marking Carroll out of the game and we looked genuinely well drilled in our defensive cover and work rate. 2 second half minutes soon tore that to tatters. I've mellowed since the weekend, Nigel Adkins should be stuck with, he is setting the team up fundamentally well but a lack of quality/strength in depth at the back is the difference currently. Have mistakes been made? Yes. Do I think the club are simply just going to sit back and do nothing? No. I just hope we are not too far adrift come January, we need to be an attractive proposition for the kind of players we need. And if relegation happens? It's not the end of the world, there will still be an ambitious club to support. Edited 23 October, 2012 by Colinjb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mowgli Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 The same points were made about Adkins when we got promoted to the Championship. A lot said he had experience at that level but in relaity failed to survive. NA is the real deal and will only get better. It will really **** me off if I see him get better with another club. The OP is absolutely right. Our rise up the league has been meteoric. NA must be given the freedom to do it his way. Not sure I agreed with Rickie not starting (not sure I disagree either) but it is Nigel's choice. The team is about 18 individuals not just 11. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tajjuk Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 Yep good post there are still 30 games to go and loads of points to play for, the defending at times has been shambolic, but it seems to be moments of madness and then the whole team losses confidence and the bad defending spirals. However the set up and shape is still looking good and I still think we will get it right even with the players we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 Whether the manager is up to top flight management isn't possible to know yet. He may be, he may not. He may be now, he may not, he may be in the future, he may not. All we know now is it's been a bad start. Countless successful managers have had bad starts and many wouldn't have had the careers they have without patience. In fact many wouldn't have had their careers if starting in the modern game with such short-term emphasis. If rarely helps clubs in the end though even if they dodge a couple of relegations with manager changes and massive pay-offs. Obviously this will translate as me saying 'Adkins is Alex Ferguson' or something, but generally I like to see managers with potential given time. A young manager who can learn from mistakes and develop could be a big asset. Anyway, he's almost certainly screwed because the modern football fan doesn't care about much other than the next result. Looking at criticism on here, the moaning about signings and disregard for money, it's easy to see how easy it is to become a meaningless mess of egos sending money into a black hole like PFC. I'd like to understand what people mean when they say NA is clearly out of his depth and that we need top flight experience....what tangible difference do they expect to see? It just sounds like buzz words which sounds like good things to say but actually have little substance at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 Totall agree with the OP. By all means have an opinion on what we can do better but let's retain some perspective and not be fickle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isorry Posted 23 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 23 October, 2012 well, I'm glad I'm not the only one who isn't panicing. Completely agree that we need to show loyalty if we're ever going to expect it in return. I also agree that saying Adkins is out of his depth is completely premature, I'd go so far as to say there is currently no significant evidence to think it. It is more likely to be that players used to a lower level need a chance to learn how to adapt their game to more skilled forwards than the manager himself needing to learn. How much does the ability of managers even vary from one league to the next - it is surely less clear cut than changes in player ability. Again I agree you're bound to hit a sticky patch if you rise up as quickly as we have, and to not be patient about it is to penalise people for how successful they have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohio Saint Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 I've resisted coming on to this forum all season as I remember how quick people are to complain. While I agree with your post, not coming on the forum is just cheating! I think most people probably understand the mass hysteria that occurs when faced with things like a sudden collapse such as we had on Saturday. There are a few here that will spout the same old bullcrap day in, day out, but most of us will have our little panic on here then settle down after a while and put their sensible head on after a day or two. Being an ex-pat, coming here on match day makes me closer to the situation. More like being at the match. Coming here when the dust has settled would be like not watching the game, and catching the highlights on MOTD. I come here to share the bedwetting OR the celebrations (However rare lately) During the week, I visit less often. In short, being calm is for midweek. Matchday is for screaming, yelling, and staining underwear. It's football, not scrabble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 A shaft of light on a day of dark clouds, but don't expect too much positive response. Some of those people who cheered us through the last 3 years have suddenly got upset because we've lost games against some of the best teams in the land, and are preparing a gallows for Adkins public hanging before eventually slashing their own wrists....in protest outside SMS. They'd much rather be in the top six of Championship than playing against the top sides and getting beat. After 50 years of following the Saints, I've become more circumspect and have taken a longer look at the League table....as I see it... as long as we've got 3 teams worse off than us by the end of the season, we can feel satisfied. This is a long term building project. and not a short term repair job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohio Saint Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 I've become more circumspect Come on now! You go the Jewish route instantly or not at all, you can't become slowly circumspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 Come on now! You go the Jewish route instantly or not at all, you can't become slowly circumspect. ouch! ........the first cut is the deepest, I should have known some " bright spark " would make a cutting comment........ btw .Did you check your dictionary.. or your joke book first before replying ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 This is a long term building project. and not a short term repair job. Yes, and there will be bumps in the long and winding road. Relegation may be one of them, I in no way see it as being the end of the world though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohio Saint Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 .Did you check your dictionary.. or your joke book first before replying ? Those jokes are always on the tip of my.................Tongue!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 (edited) One thing that seems obvious is that some people are still living in the L1 world... and seemed to doubt that we could make it in the Championship...let alone the Prem. I've seen several people stating that we've spent (read wasted ).£30 million in the transfer market, which is only small money in the Premier League. It appears by some fluke that we ended up in the big spenders list after the summer, perhaps only because the "big clubs" spent a bit less than they normally do on summer buys. Being new to this League, it was surely expected that we spend a bit more (?), but it is put in better perspective when you see that the fee that Man.Utd spent as much on one player (Robin van Persie) was roughly the same... as the cost of the entire squad we had on the day.... in a game that we lead them at one time......and nearly won. If he doesn't know by now Nicola Cortese will soon realise it's going to take "bigger " money than that to get a winning side together (irrespective of who manages it), and that £30 million on half a dozen young prospects in the Prem .. may look like a good deal in a season or two - provided we survive. Although I doubt that we will spend £12 million on another player in the near future...(remember we have sold one in a £16 million deal) . I expect a few more "sizeable " signings as soon as it is possible in January, and a much tighter back line in the second half of the season. Edited 23 October, 2012 by david in sweden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 where is the cut off point...how long do you go on not only getting beat but leaking a ridiculous amount of goals. we are going down..unless something drastic changes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 where is the cut off point...how long do you go on not only getting beat but leaking a ridiculous amount of goals. we are going down..unless something drastic changes Does it need to be drastic? How about getting our best players back fit and available, get some consistency at the back, get a clean sheet with a win which will boost the players confidence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 Does it need to be drastic? How about getting our best players back fit and available, get some consistency at the back, get a clean sheet with a win which will boost the players confidence... yes it does...going down would be a disaster....and I dont want the club to go down..I bet the players dont want to go down, I bet the tea ladies that will get sacked if we go down, dont want to go down.... just sitting by and getting hammered most weeks after being the 7th biggest spenders in europe...is silly...and it wont happen either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 Those jokes are always on the tip of my.................Tongue!! ...what a daft pr*ck ! .....a line from the script of Notting Hill (1999) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohio Saint Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 where is the cut off point... Christ, now everyone's at it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 yes it does...going down would be a disaster....and I dont want the club to go down..I bet the players dont want to go down, I bet the tea ladies that will get sacked if we go down, dont want to go down.... just sitting by and getting hammered most weeks after being the 7th biggest spenders in europe...is silly...and it wont happen either You've missed my point completely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohio Saint Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 You've missed my point completely ..........Said the baby to the blind Rabbi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveygwyatt Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 Dont like to say but can we really give adkins more time? if we lose next 2 or 3 or even more before a change is made then it could be too late. I accept this may not be adkins doing with 433 and transfer policy but his job is dependant on results and we are not getting them. If things dont change soon then any new manager coming in will struggle to sign the playere he wants in january as no one of any real quality will want to come to a club certain to go down. However that said I would be delighted if he proved me wrong I just cant see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohio Saint Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 There are other threads for the discussion of Adkins etc. This thread is supposed to be about our attitudes.........And circumcision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isorry Posted 23 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 23 October, 2012 can we give adkins more time? answer is yes if we lose the next 3 it won't be too late, we weren't even in the bottom 3 before this weekend! as for the £30m spent, the biggest chunk of that has missed the last 2 games. i wish we had an experienced prem centre back too but it doesn't mean we're all doomed. for those that insist on analysing tiny samples of games and basing their entire judgement of the state of the team on it we have 4 points from the last 4 games. that isn't too bad for a newly promoted side. A bit of defensive improvement, mainly from getting confident playing against the best strikers, and we'll comfortably be a top-17 side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveygwyatt Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 And i gave my reasons for my atitude towards adkins so maybe leave the thread policing to others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohio Saint Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 And i gave my reasons for my atitude towards adkins so maybe leave the thread policing to others.I was just making light. If I were being the police I would have locked you in a cell for three days and shown you my handcuff collection.......and if you were lucky, my foreskin collection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 Only my opinion, and it counts for feck all, but its based on the fact that the last few years have highlighted enjoying football for me is more about how we want and try and play, not about what level it is at. Dont get me wrong, the ultimate aim should always be the best you can achieve, given the budget, and importantly by being as innovative as possible to get as much advantage as you can by other means, whether it be better tactics, use of sports science or simply developing your own talent through a system that potentially makes it easier for youth to transition into the first team - (German national Model is a good own on that). BUt enjoying supporting a team has always been about more than success, otherwise no one outside the top 6 clubs would have any supporters - unfortunately, many fans have been suckered into to the whole 'panic' thing as a result of the massive financial disparity betwen the top flight and the rest in this country and its meant that clubs will play styles and use players that are designed to be effective to stay up, rather than flamboyant and entertaining. Personally, I am all for keeping Adkins, sticking to our style and plans whatever happens as the experience we need to progress can only be gained by providing that opportunity in the first place to both a young talented manager and younger talented players. On the flip side, we do nee dto recognise that we have to let go of the 'three years ago' 'excuse' - The squad and manager who delivered promotion rightly deserve plaudits for that success, but it is now in the past and too much emphasis on it can restrict our evauation and analysis of the here and now... Its clear we lack experience now at this level, probably across all aspects of the club, but we should not be paniced into suddenly changing our strategy, aims and ambitions to play a certain way - so we lose, possibly get relegated and build on that experience - Its not the financila disaster that some allude to as the assets will be valuable - and w ecan build again if necessary. Dismissing what we have started just to satisfy some false sense of pride by being top flight at all costs, may be the route some want, and 8 seasons ago I may have said the same, but for me the real leagcy of the last 3 years is actually being able to enjoy watching a side that wants to play a certain way, even if at present we are still short on players of the quality to deliver that at this higher level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micky Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 I am calm, and I am positive that unless something changes radically we have a great chance of being relegated. Not the end of the world for me to be honest. Really enjoyed the last 6 or so years - this year - boring, predictable Premier League - not really that fussed if I'm honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGTL Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 I am calm, and I am positive that unless something changes radically we have a great chance of being relegated. Not the end of the world for me to be honest. Really enjoyed the last 6 or so years - this year - boring, predictable Premier League - not really that fussed if I'm honest. You wait until we start losing in the Championship. It's a hideous league if you aren't very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toofarnorth Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 No need to panic but we need to get better. A couple of wins and the world will be rosey again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shroppie Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 Of course I don't like it as much when we're losing instead of winning nearly every week. But there was always a good chance that would happen and in a way it's better to be struggling now with plenty of the season left to recover. Key things are to keep NA, get behind him and the team. The big danger comes with NA and the individual players losing self-belief. Yes there's a step up from the Championship but the team played well against MC and MU. Two or more points against them and the world would seem very different. Would like to see a settled defence - Gazz, Clyne, Fonte, Yashida, Fox/Richardson until we do everything possible to strengthen in Jan. Going forward we have flair and the potential to put goals past anyone, especially once Ramirez is back. Until then, keep calm, keep the faith, keep NA, keep believing. COYR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 I don't think I'm especially prone to panic attacks, nor methinks is my old bed in all that great a danger of a nocturnal soaking. If my team loses by the odd goal to the likes of Man Utd or City, then I don't like it much, but I've been around long enough to know that sort of thing is always on the cards for a club in our position. But what I find painfully hard to do is having to constantly explain to a little boy why the club he has come to love in all his childlike innocence has suddenly become a laughing stock in his playground. Getting beat is one thing, being humiliated is quite another. What I can't learn to happily tolerate is supporting a expensively assembled squad of professional footballers who seemingly can't even master the basics of defending their goal. Is it asking too much to expect a reasonably competent manager to know what his best team is, and to have devised a formation that maximizes the potential of his players? Who on here can honestly say that our manager has accomplished either of these basic objectives so far this season ...... The problem with these 'Keep the Faith' and 'Give him more time' type arguments is that faith negates evidence, and time truly is the most precious of all things. How long is a fan expected to endure failure before he is allowed to conclude enough is enough? Some seem to have reached that point already, while (at the other extreme) a few are arguing NA should effectively have a indefinite 'licence to fail'. All I can say is that my personal level of patience is wearing pretty thin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitzhugh Fella Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 I don't think I'm especially prone to panic attacks, nor methinks is my old bed in all that great a danger of a nocturnal soaking. If my team loses by the odd goal to the likes of Man Utd or City, then I don't like it much, but I've been around long enough to know that sort of thing is always on the cards for a club in our position. But what I find painfully hard to do is having to constantly explain to a little boy why the club he has come to love in all his childlike innocence has suddenly become a laughing stock in his playground. Getting beat is one thing, being humiliated is quite another. What I can't learn to happily tolerate is supporting a expensively assembled squad of professional footballers who seemingly can't even master the basics of defending their goal. Is it asking too much to expect a reasonably competent manager to know what his best team is, and to have devised a formation that maximizes the potential of his players? Who on here can honestly say that our manager has accomplished either of these basic objectives so far this season ...... The problem with these 'Keep the Faith' and 'Give him more time' type arguments is that faith negates evidence, and time truly is the most precious of all things. How long is a fan expected to endure failure before he is allowed to conclude enough is enough? Some seem to have reached that point already, while (at the other extreme) a few are arguing NA should effectively have a indefinite 'licence to fail'. All I can say is that my personal level of patience is wearing pretty thin. This, and eloquently put if I may say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulstersaint Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 I'm all for some positivity but the negatives are stacking up. With 8 games gone: - 24 goals against - 3 goalkeepers used - dodgy centre backs - lack of a good left back (unless Clynne moves over and that leaves right back problem) - Lallana is not captain material (give it to Steve Davis, captain of Rangers and NI) - 433 formation is not working - Ricky is on the bench and Guly on the pitch - crazy substitutions - getting hammered at West Ham - missing an opportunity to get more points from Wigan & Fulham + we are scoring goals (usually a problem for promoted teams) + we have 30 games left (and we have played 3 of top 4) + Gaston looks a special player + ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 The problem with these 'Keep the Faith' and 'Give him more time' type arguments is that faith negates evidence, and time truly is the most precious of all things. How long is a fan expected to endure failure before he is allowed to conclude enough is enough? Some seem to have reached that point already, while (at the other extreme) a few are arguing NA should effectively have a indefinite 'licence to fail'. All I can say is that my personal level of patience is wearing pretty thin. I would think that the expression " failure" would come after the 38 games have been completed and (IF) we are relegated. Till then, we are still in the race. Given the fact that we can't sign new players until January, what could another manager do at this time that this one isn't doing ?.... beat them with a stick ?.....take away their car keys and make them walk to SMS? ......play even more inexperienced boys from the U18 side ?.....NO we just have to grin and bear it, until we turn the corner..and get a few games against sides who aren't in the top 10. ref: that " enough is enough " ...does that mean you're considering supporting another more successful club instead? If your patience is " wearing thin " (as you put it)....then you haven't been a fan long enough. I watched MY first game in 1959 (!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 Failure? perhaps, but its seems that some have lost perspective about what 'supporting' is all about - 'laughing stock'? come on, anyone who supports a side outside the top 3 at school has endured a bit of a ribbing - its football FFS and in the grand scheme of things the 'seriousness' with which this is all taken, and the loss of perspective is astounding for grown men - are egos really that fragile? We are struggling for a number of reasons - it happens. I am not saying be 'happy' with it, but deal with it. I thought those seasons in the lower leagues would have installed us with some boll ox to take this sort of thing on the chin and realise that football is about 'support' no matter what (division) and some might even argue that we should be proud to stick to our guns and if that means this season we learn, but not quite enough, so be it. We had years of misery, BS, divided fans, rumour, more BS uring Lowe's tenure.... some seem to be well on course for wanting a repeat, simply because they aint used to losing badly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadgerBadger Posted 23 October, 2012 Share Posted 23 October, 2012 I don't think I'm especially prone to panic attacks, nor methinks is my old bed in all that great a danger of a nocturnal soaking. If my team loses by the odd goal to the likes of Man Utd or City, then I don't like it much, but I've been around long enough to know that sort of thing is always on the cards for a club in our position. But what I find painfully hard to do is having to constantly explain to a little boy why the club he has come to love in all his childlike innocence has suddenly become a laughing stock in his playground. Getting beat is one thing, being humiliated is quite another. What I can't learn to happily tolerate is supporting a expensively assembled squad of professional footballers who seemingly can't even master the basics of defending their goal. Is it asking too much to expect a reasonably competent manager to know what his best team is, and to have devised a formation that maximizes the potential of his players? Who on here can honestly say that our manager has accomplished either of these basic objectives so far this season ...... The problem with these 'Keep the Faith' and 'Give him more time' type arguments is that faith negates evidence, and time truly is the most precious of all things. How long is a fan expected to endure failure before he is allowed to conclude enough is enough? Some seem to have reached that point already, while (at the other extreme) a few are arguing NA should effectively have a indefinite 'licence to fail'. All I can say is that my personal level of patience is wearing pretty thin. We're a way off 'humiliation' or 'laughing stock' material FFS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 24 October, 2012 Share Posted 24 October, 2012 We're a way off 'humiliation' or 'laughing stock' material FFS We are now. All my mate support teams from all over and come from all over. We are the "whipping boys" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 24 October, 2012 Share Posted 24 October, 2012 I always use language carefully on here, and when I wrote that I think we are being 'humiliated' that was exactly the right word to convey my meaning. Our defending has become the stuff of comic relief in the English game of late, and those who seem to doubt this for some inexplicable reason must be suffering from as terminal a case of myopia as it is possible to imagine. As for the cretin who suggested I should go follow another team for daring to speak such heresy ... well he can rest assured I shall continue to support this team as I have (man and boy) for well nigh as long as he has - and I've got the stomach ulcer and the Grey hair required to prove it! Wishful thinking wins you no points in this game, sticking your head in the sand and hopping for 'something to turn up' in a Macawber like fashion is equally unlikely to get you anywhere I've learned. The obvious truth is that this team is in deep trouble, and the sooner some on here learn to accept that reality the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isorry Posted 24 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 24 October, 2012 I always use language carefully on here, and when I wrote that I think we are being 'humiliated' that was exactly the right word to convey my meaning. Our defending has become the stuff of comic relief in the English game of late, and those who seem to doubt this for some inexplicable reason must be suffering from as terminal a case of myopia as it is possible to imagine. . I don't see how it can be right to think in these terms after such a small portion of the season. No one is claiming it is fine for things to stay as they are just because we're a lot higher up the leagues than we used to be, or that it is ok if things are bad because they used to be really bad. But there is a much longer period of evidence to suggest that changing managers often leads to bad things and massive set backs in the long term. As some earlier posts allude to, we currently have a team that it is worthwhile to support, not a group of players and managers that change every 6 months into a completely different set of people that just happen to put the same shirt on as the last ones. Far from being humiliating the current manager has been part of creating something to be proud of, and that can't turn into something humiliating the moment there is a set back or two. I'm still enjoying being a Southampton fan, after a period of watching players who I didn't believe cared much, I'm pretty sure these ones do which I like. Let the same people fix their own mistakes and back them to do so in the meantime, Adkins seems intelligent enough to do that even though some of the mistakes (in my opinion) with substitutions etc have happened more than once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 24 October, 2012 Share Posted 24 October, 2012 (edited) I always use language carefully on here, and when I wrote that I think we are being 'humiliated' that was exactly the right word to convey my meaning. As for the cretin who suggested I should go follow another team for daring to speak such heresy ... well he can rest assured I shall continue to support this team as I have (man and boy) for well nigh as long as he has - and I've got the stomach ulcer and the Grey hair required to prove it! . well that must be me ..but I've not been called cretin before .....but if ...as you say....you have been supporting Saints as long as me ..surely you must recall those many seasons in the 27, when we were bottom for ages and only survived in the last few games? Being in this situation may be panic stations for newer/younger fans, but we "oldies " have been here before, haven't we ? I really think you should re-read what you wrote in your original post...." enough is enough " you said ...what did you mean ?..it really read as though you were contemplating some major decision......and as you do not have the power to sack Nigel Adkins**.......or change Prem. rules about buying in new players outside the window.....what did you mean?. If I've misquoted you... .say so ...and I'll apologise ......but do please explain......? ** if you want to sack NA you ought to give Cortese some hint about a suitable replacement .... Edited 24 October, 2012 by david in sweden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 24 October, 2012 Share Posted 24 October, 2012 I don't see how it can be right to think in these terms after such a small portion of the season. No one is claiming it is fine for things to stay as they are just because we're a lot higher up the leagues than we used to be, or that it is ok if things are bad because they used to be really bad. But there is a much longer period of evidence to suggest that changing managers often leads to bad things and massive set backs in the long term. As some earlier posts allude to, we currently have a team that it is worthwhile to support, not a group of players and managers that change every 6 months into a completely different set of people that just happen to put the same shirt on as the last ones. Far from being humiliating the current manager has been part of creating something to be proud of, and that can't turn into something humiliating the moment there is a set back or two. I'm still enjoying being a Southampton fan, after a period of watching players who I didn't believe cared much, I'm pretty sure these ones do which I like. Let the same people fix their own mistakes and back them to do so in the meantime, Adkins seems intelligent enough to do that even though some of the mistakes (in my opinion) with substitutions etc have happened more than once. Well, if you don't find shipping 4 goals in 45 minutes to a team quite as ordinary as West Ham not even the least bit humiliating, then good for you is all I can say. I on the other hand have heard all this 'keep the faith' and 'things will come right' talk so often now that I'm sick of it frankly. People were spouting exactly the same platitudes on here during the reign of Steve Wigly, George Burley, and Jan Bloody Poortvleit. We've all seen this grand old club relegated more often than most of us care to remember, and by now we should know what the signs of impending doom are ... and trust me there's a great big flashing neon sign in front of us with RELEGATION AHEAD writ large upon it. Years of bitter experience proves that your 'Tammy Wynette' recipe for the running of a failing team is no more likely to bring success than a more proactive approach would be. Nigel Adkins won us two promotions and a hell of a lot of entertaining football along the way in his time here - and I'll always be grateful for that. But the reality of the modern game is that just like every other manager his job ultimately depends entirely on what he is achieving in the here and now. Results, not sentimentality, is what matters ultimately. Without at least some tangible signs of improvement pretty damn quick NA will have to go I'm afraid - it may already be too late for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHAPEL END CHARLIE Posted 24 October, 2012 Share Posted 24 October, 2012 well that must be me ..but I've not been called cretin before .....but if ...as you say....you have been supporting Saints as long as me ..surely you must recall those many seasons in the 27, when we were bottom for ages and only survived in the last few games? Being in this situation may be panic stations for newer/younger fans, but we "oldies " have been here before, haven't we ? I really think you should re-read what you wrote in your original post...." enough is enough " you said ...what did you mean ?..it really read as though you were contemplating some major decision......and as you do not have the power to sack Nigel Adkins**.......or change Prem. rules about buying in new players outside the window.....what did you mean?.... If you are really incapable of understanding the clear difference between a fan saying "enough is enough" (in the context of discussing a manger) and the cretinous implication that the same life long fan must therefore be so base that he is contemplating the abandonment of his club in order to support another .... well then you've been in Sweden too long shipmate because a reasonably bright child should be able to tell the difference. If there is one hard and fast rule on here, it should be that you must never accuse another fan of disloyalty just because you don't happen to agree with something he may have posted. As for the 27 years, are you really under the impression that we retained the service's of the same manager for that extreme length of time and this therefore explains how we avoided relegation for so long? Of course the record shows that we changed manager many times during this period - with some success if mere survival is the criteria. Perhaps we should continue this conversion at St Marys on Sunday. I'll be there in the Chapel of course supporting the club I love with my hard earned money and to the best of my ability - as I have done for countless Sundays and Saturdays before. If only everyone on her could say the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 24 October, 2012 Share Posted 24 October, 2012 If you are really incapable of understanding the clear difference between a fan saying "enough is enough" (in the context of discussing a manger) and the cretinous implication that the same life long fan must therefore be so base that he is contemplating the abandonment of his club in order to support another .... well then you've been in Sweden too long shipmate because a reasonably bright child should be able to tell the difference. If there is one hard and fast rule on here, it should be that you must never accuse another fan of disloyalty just because you don't happen to agree with something he may have posted. As for the 27 years, are you really under the impression that we retained the service's of the same manager for that extreme length of time and this therefore explains how we avoided relegation for so long? Of course the record shows that we changed manager many times during this period - with some success if mere survival is the criteria. Perhaps we should continue this conversion at St Marys on Sunday. I'll be there in the Chapel of course supporting the club I love with my hard earned money and to the best of my ability - as I have done for countless Sundays and Saturdays before. If only everyone on her could say the same. I was merely pointing out that your comment " enough is enough " after only 8 games ....sounded very serious and wasn't at all clear to me what you meant?... as for your faihful support.... I acknowledge that and wish I had more opportunity to be there at SMS with you all, a little more often myself. My next visit isn't for amonth or so. .....however, think I'll leave this thread to the rest of you to argue out .... and go back to being calm and positive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Without a Halo Posted 25 October, 2012 Share Posted 25 October, 2012 We are Saints fans! The words calm down and positive are not in our dictionary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torres Posted 25 October, 2012 Share Posted 25 October, 2012 I've resisted coming on to this forum all season as I remember how quick people are to complain. A couple of years ago I thought I might never see Southampton in the Premier League again, and I'm not very old. We've only played 8 games and we're not adrift at the bottom, and that's after a ridiculous first 4 games (in which we outplayed Man Utd). We always used to win one of our first 8 in my memory anyway. Half of our goals conceded have been against Man City, Man Utd, and Arsenal. We lost 6-1 away at Arsenal and got to the final of the FA Cup and came 10th(i think?) in the Premier League in 2003. It just happens sometimes in the Premier League. Yes the defence has been a bit shambolic but even without any additions, a bit more confidence, fewer injured full backs, and getting the run of the ball for a game or two would probably sort it out. My own theory is that losing out on all of those opening games left them a bit rattled and they've not been able to settle in to the league yet. So can't we wait for them to do that? Mistakes have been made, and I know nothing about goings on behind the scenes, but we are in a position I dreamed of being in the very recent past, and I wish everyone would just enjoy it. I don't understand why Lambert is being used so sparingly, and repeatedly taken off when we're winning when it's so much easier for the opposition when he isn't on the pitch. BUT why are so many people ignoring that over the years changing the manager every other season hasn't worked all that well? And not just for Southampton. Especially when you sack a promising manager who is yet to reach his full potential and replace him with someone with proven mediocrity. Adkins is one of the most interesting, ambitious, and thoughtful managers I've seen and i'd love to go back to the days (before I followed Southampton) when we kept a manager for 10 or more years, then you can actually support the same team for a prolonged period. Reading comments about needing someone like Redknapp in order to move forward is scary. I mean come onnnn, just get a grip of yourselves!! Absolutely spot on, So good it's worth quoting in full. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isorry Posted 26 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 26 October, 2012 Well, if you don't find shipping 4 goals in 45 minutes to a team quite as ordinary as West Ham not even the least bit humiliating, then good for you is all I can say. I on the other hand have heard all this 'keep the faith' and 'things will come right' talk so often now that I'm sick of it frankly. People were spouting exactly the same platitudes on here during the reign of Steve Wigly, George Burley, and Jan Bloody Poortvleit. We've all seen this grand old club relegated more often than most of us care to remember, and by now we should know what the signs of impending doom are ... and trust me there's a great big flashing neon sign in front of us with RELEGATION AHEAD writ large upon it. Years of bitter experience proves that your 'Tammy Wynette' recipe for the running of a failing team is no more likely to bring success than a more proactive approach would be. Nigel Adkins won us two promotions and a hell of a lot of entertaining football along the way in his time here - and I'll always be grateful for that. But the reality of the modern game is that just like every other manager his job ultimately depends entirely on what he is achieving in the here and now. Results, not sentimentality, is what matters ultimately. Without at least some tangible signs of improvement pretty damn quick NA will have to go I'm afraid - it may already be too late for him. I do find it momentarily humiliating, but not so that I want to rip up everything that has been successful over a period of 2 or more years based on 45 minutes or 8 games at most. I'm confident that I could find you an example of humiliation for any team in our division within the last couple of years. Example: Manchester Utd 1 - 6 Manchester City. Manchester Utd fans still remain proud of their club and rightly so (I suppose). At no point did I argue for Steve Wigley or Stuart Gray to be given more time, and I was delighted when the Scottish FA took Burley off our hands, but this situation is completely different. The biggest problem with everything you're saying is that you are basing your judgements on much too short a period of time to be significant. How many times would you have sacked Roberto Martinez if you were in charge of Wigan? You could get through 5 managers this season by your reasoning. But the original point of this is that we should still be enjoying the different experience this season brings, and have a positive impact on what is going on at the moment. We're only one place off where we would probably accept being at the end of the season, although the league table still doesn't contain a lot of information that we didn't know at the start of the season. We've got 30 games left to climb that one place. I'd back us to achieve that and a bit more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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