Roger Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 Adkins has clearly lost the plot but all these comments about cortese picking team and all these things cortese is suppossed to be doing behind the scenes what is going on and who is to blame. Adkins apparantly wanted to sign 2 centre backs and wasnt allowed and also has cortese told him to play 433. Who is to blame? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibden Purlieu Saint Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 Both, but only one head is going to roll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobM Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 If Adkins isn't allowed to choose the style of play or formation, he can't be blamed when it doesn't work and he has to stick with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 Does anyone know where that Solent commentator blog is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corky morris Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 It's not losing, it's the way we are losing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 Adkins has clearly lost the plot but all these comments about cortese picking team and all these things cortese is suppossed to be doing behind the scenes what is going on and who is to blame. Adkins apparantly wanted to sign 2 centre backs and wasnt allowed and also has cortese told him to play 433. Who is to blame? Where does that particular gem come from ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katalinic Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 Seems odd that these stories only surface when we are doing badly. If Cortese has been picking the team and formations for the past 2 years he hasn't done too badly Personally I think its b*******. At the very least NC doesn't make the substitutions which have cost us at least 5 points this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobM Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 Does anyone know where that Solent commentator blog is? I think it's this one: http://bigadamsport.blogspot.co.uk/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohio Saint Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 Even solent are debating this right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohio Saint Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 It's not losing, it's the way we are losing! Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 I think it's this one: http://bigadamsport.blogspot.co.uk/ Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenridge Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 Adkins apparantly wanted to sign 2 centre backs and wasnt allowed and also has cortese told him to play 433. Who is to blame? Adkins gave Nicola a list of 12 players to go for in the summer. He didn't get any of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puddings and Monkeys Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 Adkins has clearly lost the plot but all these comments about cortese picking team and all these things cortese is suppossed to be doing behind the scenes what is going on and who is to blame. Adkins apparantly wanted to sign 2 centre backs and wasnt allowed and also has cortese told him to play 433. Who is to blame? Total crap. I know from one of the coaching staff that we tried to sign 2 CBs. A fee in excess of the Ramirez one was agreed for one who is a current international but his club pulled out at the last minute leaving us in the poo. He is meant to be joining in Jan. The other club refused us permission to talk but the player made it clear he wanted to come. To say that NA wasn't allowed to sign any CBs is just not true but probably fits with your conspiracy theories eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 Southampton make their return to the Premier League this week, and fans of the club are full of optimism after two years of almost constant success under the guidance of Nigel Adkins. Whilst as a journalist I have found myself wishing sometimes he would stray from his script and give me the occasional golden nugget, he's constant positivity has been re-assuring for players and fans alike. He is a genuinely good bloke ( as all our local league managers are currently), and Harry Redknapp has called him a future England manager. He has secured four promotions in six seasons in the Football League, and his back to back promotions have catapulted Saints back to the big time fully two years ahead of the club's schedule. You cannot bluff your way to his success, and the constant smiley face and quips would not be enough alone to convince players to play for you, or to play with the attacking and entertaining brief of his they have succeeded in delivering. Great strides have been made off the pitch as well, and Adkins has delivered with considerable financial backing from Nicola Cortese and Markus Liebherr's estate. The club have put together one of the finest academy set-ups in Europe, have great facilties, and look perfectly poised to re-enter the Premier League with all this momentum they can build on, and turn it into a good first season back in the top flight. So, why have I felt compelled to share my worry for Nigel and the team? Let me caveat what I'm sharing with you by saying I hope my worries are unfounded and all is hunky dory for Saints(all our clubs in fact) all season. But there is something niggling away the more I speak to people on and off the record, and it also comes from things the manager has said in interviews I've done with him which I've read between the lines of (rightly or wrongly). As I said, he never says anything beyond the party line, but he is shrewd and has made sure recently we know which bits he's in control of at the club and which bits he's not ! Which brings me to "The Southampton Way" . An ambition by the club and of the chairman to emulate what Barcelona have done over the last decade with developing talent and the style with which they've done it. That ambition is an excellent one to have but I can't help thinking that Saints are in danger of rushing to make that happen , and that it could impact on this season. Nigel Adkins quotes recently: "We've played 4-3-3 all pre-season". "This pre-season we've implemented a different formation yet again, the youth teams from the under-21's down through the football club, that's the way they're used to playing. We want to get our youngsters through the system comfortable playing that way". "To have improved the way we have in the last two years with this group of players is testament to how well they've done". "We are still working to bring players in. I know the chairman is working very hard, and having spoken to him yesterday I'm very excited about what's on the horizon because I know how hard he's working to make things happen". "I imagine we'll be making more signings". Ok, so here's the nub of the above quotes. The chairman is well and truly responsible for making transfers happen, not the manager - which is fine in principle, as long as the manager is identifying the players - but if they don't fill the squad this window, it won't be Nigel's fault. There is a desire from above for the first team to play 4-3-3, because that is the ambition of The Southampton Way. It is a laudable ambition, and good to get players at lower levels of the club to play a certain way to fit into the first team's system. But this first team's system is 4-4-2, and the players brought in so far are comfortable like that as well. Did Saints really spend 7 million pounds on Jay Rodriguez so he could hug the left wing? If Barcelona started hoofing the ball up the pitch like Stoke and keep winning, what happens at Saints? The Southampton Way should be all it is trying to be without the formation - it should be an ethos and an ambition to find, nurture, develop talent and play attractive football. Now if Nigel is playing the system to give themselves more options, and at home they still start games playing two up front and change and adapt as matches go on, great. But what if his default position has to be 4-3-3, because it is deemed from above to be the way forward because that's what Barcelona do? He has a squad of players who've been successful, as he says, playing a certain way, and he has brought them in to be successful in his systems, not someone elses. To play like Barcelona, in that 4-3-3, you need to play at pace through the middle and be playing quick one-twos and triangles all over the attacking half of the pitch to shift defenders and create space. It will be a long season if Saints current first-team squad are suddenly expected to attempt that, against all their recent instincts, against Premier League opposition. Yes to evolution, bringing it through because the younger players are used to it, but imposing it from the top would be a grave error, unless the transfer targets between now and the end of August are top-class stars used to playing that way. My concerns may be unfounded - but would Nigel really choose to not change the formation having gone 3-0 down to Udinese in 35 minutes? How many time have you seen Rickie Lambert rise at the far post in pre-season to head the ball towards goal like we have become accustomed to? So far Nigel has "managed up" very well in his near two years at the club, but what if the team start the season badly - would any manager worth his salt let his reputation be tarnished by looking tactically naive when it's not his doing? I believe he has been questioned when he's gone off script in the past. I also have a genuine concern that all this brilliant momentum the squad have, may be being eaten into by having to play an "alien" brand of football. Hopefully I am over-worrying about a good bunch of players & a management team who are grounded and genuine. In the Saints changing room , there's a poster as you walk from the changing rooms that says, THE SAINTS, TOGETHER WE STAND. My over-riding concern is that if results aren't going well while the team & manager play a system that they've been asked to play, then that motto won't stand up to scrutiny, and it will be Nigel Adkins who pays the price for playing The Southampton Way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 Adkins gave Nicola a list of 12 players to go for in the summer. He didn't get any of them. thank god he listened to him when he wanted Jonathan Forte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobM Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 So many independent views are saying the same thing - 4-3-3 is the only way we're allowed to play. So if the formation is set, the players are set until Jan, what good can come from changing manager? A new manager would normally bring a fresh approach to the way we play, new ideas, new tactics... but those aren't relevant if the formation is fixed and cannot / will not be changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenridge Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 thank god he listened to him when he wanted Jonathan Forte That's not really the point as I'm sure you know. If you are the Manager and you make the decisions and have full control then on your head be it. If you're just a figure-head a-la the traditional Continental model then it's a bit harsh to take the can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david in sweden Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 Cortese........or Adkins...or a bit of both ? Both seem to have underestimated our back line before the season start .and (tbf) we had our share of some bad luck, too. We still haven't seen our most consistant player from last season...Jack Cork...and our £12 million star will be out for another 6 weeks ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miserableoldgit Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 Adkins has clearly lost the plot but all these comments about cortese picking team and all these things cortese is suppossed to be doing behind the scenes what is going on and who is to blame. Adkins apparantly wanted to sign 2 centre backs and wasnt allowed and also has cortese told him to play 433. Who is to blame? Adkins gave Nicola a list of 12 players to go for in the summer. He didn't get any of them. Both, but only one head is going to roll. These are all facts then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 According to someone I know who used to work at St mary's NC is picking the team although I find that hard to believe myself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 'we will play 4-3-3' enough said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadaSaint Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 I very much suspect that Nigel's task is to implement a plan formulated above him, and that plan includes a certain style and even a certain formation (as part of a club-wide commitment). He doesn't have the licence that most other PL managers have, although suggestions that Cortese picks the team are IMO ridiculous. Someone else might have a big influence, though. The problem with today is not that we lost or even that we lost 4-1 in a six-pointer, but that we were hammered by a team playing the very kind of football that our "powers that be" don't want us to play. And our manager was out-managed by a manager who is the very kind of manager that our "powers that be" don't want here. What's at stake is not just the fact that a very nice man is not succeeding, but the fact that our fundamental philosophy might not be succeeding. The egos are such that the blame will fall on the manager because those above Nigel may not be willing to consider the possibility that some elements of our philosophy may need to change or that Nigel hasn't been given the tools to do the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 'we will play 4-3-3' enough said. did he not say that is it all on him...he lives and dies by his decisions..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohio Saint Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 our fundamental philosophy might not be succeeding. . That's the part that upsets me. That is the part that I am invested in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Fan CaM Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 Fact is, if NC and Reid are telling Adkins to play 4-3-3 then that is as good as telling him how to pick the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La BoIS Saint Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 did he not say that is it all on him...he lives and dies by his decisions..? Mandy Rice Davies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 did he not say that is it all on him...he lives and dies by his decisions..? ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpturner Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 Adkins has clearly lost the plot but all these comments about cortese picking team and all these things cortese is suppossed to be doing behind the scenes what is going on and who is to blame. Adkins apparantly wanted to sign 2 centre backs and wasnt allowed and also has cortese told him to play 433. Who is to blame? You remind me of the bloke down the pub who spouts off 'facts' when really it is just idle here-say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted 20 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 20 October, 2012 You remind me of the bloke down the pub who spouts off 'facts' when really it is just idle here-say. Oh football fan in pub talk shocker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 did he not say that is it all on him...he lives and dies by his decisions..? He said that, he said he picks the players and substitutes and when pressed at the end on formaiton he said 'we will play 4-3-3' I have no doubt he picks the players but he is told the formation they have to play in. That much is clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 He said that, he said he picks the players and substitutes and when pressed at the end on formaiton he said 'we will play 4-3-3' I have no doubt he picks the players but he is told the formation they have to play in. That much is clear. then, I am amazed he does not walk...hence my previous post about his stock being sky high for him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 then, I am amazed he does not walk...hence my previous post about his stock being sky high for him Probably on a fair wedge. Surely better for him to have a crack in the prem under these restrictions and then get the sack with a sizeable payoff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 Probably on a fair wedge. Surely better for him to have a crack in the prem under these restrictions and then get the sack with a sizeable payoff? does not seem so though, does it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 then, I am amazed he does not walk...hence my previous post about his stock being sky high for him Come on Jamie. He took the job as with about 3 years experience in management, he was a rookie getting a great opportunity at a club on the up. Obviously this is an assumption but I'd be willing to guess he has to agree to certain things, such as 'the Southampton way' and not having total control of team affairs when he joined. It's great when things are going well but when its not and your job and reputation are effected by it, then not so much. Sadly Nige will be the fall guy for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldNick Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 That's not really the point as I'm sure you know. If you are the Manager and you make the decisions and have full control then on your head be it. If you're just a figure-head a-la the traditional Continental model then it's a bit harsh to take the can. I think that there is a lot of nonsense going on about NC ,it is the same stuff as When RL was here. Your stuff maybe true but it is hurting the club by propagating the unrest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coastal Saint Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 Adkins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 does not seem so though, does it What doesn't seem so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kpturner Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 Oh football fan in pub talk shocker. Or Roger in made up "facts" in OP shocker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Marco Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 Cortese doesnt choose the team or the formation. People thinking that are just desperate. First they said Guly had to play every game and he was dropped for 4 games. They said Kelvin had a clause in his contract saying he had to play and he was dropped. And so on. Face it Adkins is in charge and his tactics are what has cost us. Cortese has a few bad points but even he will change his attitude when things change. Look at what happened with Puncheon. Adkins has been getting it wrong and people just want to try and use it as another stick to beat the chairman with. In this dat and age of 24/7 football news something like that would get out very easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 What doesn't seem so? having a crack at the prem...as we are an embarrassment and many will simply point the finger at the manager.....sooner rather than later, he will start to become unemployable with a top NPC/prem team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 Cortese is the big boss. He has got a fixation about the way we play. The manager that reports to him either delivers that and the results, or Cortese will get someone who can. Its not nice, its outrageous, but thats the way it is, unfortunately. Its how Cortese sees it. And with us no longer being a plc, he doesnt have to justify squat to anybody. Cortese is also not stupid. When he sees this isnt working, he will change in order to protect the investment, but I fear that will come too late to save NA; he will want to try his vision with another manager first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 having a crack at the prem...as we are an embarrassment and many will simply point the finger at the manager.....sooner rather than later, he will start to become unemployable with a top NPC/prem team Pretty unlikely I reckon. He will be sacked before that point methinks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRichmond Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 So many independent views are saying the same thing - 4-3-3 is the only way we're allowed to play. So if the formation is set, the players are set until Jan, what good can come from changing manager? A new manager would normally bring a fresh approach to the way we play, new ideas, new tactics... but those aren't relevant if the formation is fixed and cannot / will not be changed. Bring in 'Arry boy ........ He always takes note of how the CEO instructs the team to play .... A marriage in Heaven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRichmond Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 Cortese is the big boss. He has got a fixation about the way we play. The manager that reports to him either delivers that and the results, or Cortese will get someone who can. Its not nice, its outrageous, but thats the way it is, unfortunately. Its how Cortese sees it. And with us no longer being a plc, he doesnt have to justify squat to anybody. Cortese is also not stupid. When he sees this isnt working, he will change in order to protect the investment, but I fear that will come too late to save NA; he will want to try his vision with another manager first. If he cannot already see that "his" strategy is failing miserably, then he must be either Blind or Stupid (He must have learnt from Bob Lord and/or Ken Bates) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRichmond Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 He said that, he said he picks the players and substitutes and when pressed at the end on formaiton he said 'we will play 4-3-3' I have no doubt he picks the players but he is told the formation they have to play in. That much is clear. Yes, but he did NOT say that it was HIS decision to play 4-3-3 did he He simply stated what they WOULD play .... NOT his decision IMHO I reckon it's Reed's decision ....... Cortese is not a Football man in that sense It won't be the first time that Reed has F*cked up will it ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miltonaggro Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 Come on Jamie. He took the job as with about 3 years experience in management, he was a rookie getting a great opportunity at a club on the up. Obviously this is an assumption but I'd be willing to guess he has to agree to certain things, such as 'the Southampton way' and not having total control of team affairs when he joined. It's great when things are going well but when its not and your job and reputation are effected by it, then not so much. Sadly Nige will be the fall guy for this. Pretty much this methinks, which means if NA gets the push a Benitez type appointment will have to be allowed to make all of the critical decisions. A lot of managers with senior reputations have clauses on selection and transfer dealings written into their contract terms. The role of Reed is interesting, as he is very much a Marmite character in the game, and may effect who might be willing to adapt to the Saints way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 Adkins has clearly lost the plot but all these comments about cortese picking team and all these things cortese is suppossed to be doing behind the scenes what is going on and who is to blame. Adkins apparantly wanted to sign 2 centre backs and wasnt allowed and also has cortese told him to play 433. Who is to blame? Where does that particular gem come from ? Still waiting for an answer on the above story, can you elaborate Roger ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobM Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 did he not say that is it all on him...he lives and dies by his decisions..? Not in context of the formation, no. That was the end of the interview, after the 'live and die' comments. (edit - sorry, seen this is well answered after posting my reply to you) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
labibs Posted 20 October, 2012 Share Posted 20 October, 2012 Ah, enjoyable thread. I think it's clear that Adkins doesn't have sole control of transfers, but then I don't think that many managers in the top divisions of Europe do either, defs not the majority. Many clubs employ a long term, committee-based approach to transfers. When you consider the relatively short lifespan of managers these days (think its around an average of 18 months) you can see why clubs do it. If a club buys a load of players with one managers style then recruits another with a completely different one, the club is left with loads of unwanted players and their pressure on the wage bill. It's hyperbole, but imagine if Sam Allardyce was signing players for a club and then got sacked, only for Guardiola to take over? How many will he want to maintain at the club? Do I think there is an ethos re: transfers and a way of playing at the club: yes. Do I think Cortese is telling Adkins to play Yoshida at left back and drop Lambert for Guly? No. Anyone who does, knows more than me and I would love to see the evidence that led then to adopt that viewpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Posted 20 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 20 October, 2012 Still waiting for an answer on the above story, can you elaborate Roger ? I was basing it on someone else saying it earlier! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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