trousers Posted 16 October, 2012 Share Posted 16 October, 2012 BBC Breaking News @BBCBreaking Computer hacker #GaryMcKinnon will not be extradited to US, due to risk he would end his own life - UK home secretary http://bbc.in/T7U72K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 16 October, 2012 Share Posted 16 October, 2012 Good news. The fairness and balance of the whole US / UK extradition treaty is open to question, but this case was particularly iniquitous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 16 October, 2012 Share Posted 16 October, 2012 Good news. The fairness and balance of the whole US / UK extradition treaty is open to question, but this case was particularly iniquitous. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 16 October, 2012 Share Posted 16 October, 2012 Good news. The fairness and balance of the whole US / UK extradition treaty is open to question, but this case was particularly iniquitous. Good news. Can we now employ him at the Ministry of Defence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 16 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 16 October, 2012 Just watching it on BBC Parliament. Every MP bar Alan Johnson in agreement. Johnson accused May of making a decision that was in the best interests for her party not for the country.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wurzel Posted 16 October, 2012 Share Posted 16 October, 2012 Far be it for me to suggest deals being done or any such like, but just a week after we finally send them The One Eyed Hooky Monster ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andysstuff Posted 16 October, 2012 Share Posted 16 October, 2012 Far be it for me to suggest deals being done or any such like, but just a week after we finally send them The One Eyed Hooky Monster ..... This immediately sprung to my mind too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 16 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 16 October, 2012 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19962844 John Mcyintyre, London emails: Absolute double standards! Babar Ahmed was held with no evidence for the last seven years and was extradited. What is this Home Secretary playing at? She is giving the wrong messages, namely if you are a muslim you will be extradited (even if there is no evidence against you,) but if you are a white caucasion you are safe from extradition!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 16 October, 2012 Share Posted 16 October, 2012 Just watching it on BBC Parliament. Every MP bar Alan Johnson in agreement. Johnson accused May of making a decision that was in the best interests for her party not for the country.... Because his party never did that did they. I quite like Alan Johnson, but he is going to be well adrift of public sentiment here and if I were him I would leave well alone. Whilst it is probably the right outcome, the root problem has not been addressed, ie the ridiculous one way extradition policy that exists between the US and the UK. Will claiming to be at risk of taking your life be grounds to contest extradition in the future. Potentially dangerous precedent to set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 16 October, 2012 Share Posted 16 October, 2012 I quite like Alan Johnson, but he is going to be well adrift of public sentiment here and if I were him I would leave well alone. Surely thats what makes him a good and rerspected politician - one that pursues his honest beliefs rather than whats popular? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 16 October, 2012 Share Posted 16 October, 2012 Surely thats what makes him a good and rerspected politician - one that pursues his honest beliefs rather than whats popular? How about doing what is right ? McKinnon suffers from Apsergers so it is questionable if he is fit to be put on trial. Tory interests and "the right thing" do co-incide sometimes, you know... Anyway, Johnsons "national interest" is only lickey-looing to the Yanks and pretending that the "special relationship" really exists. Lets not pretend he has no agenda. How often do the Yanks extradite US citizens to us under this agreement, btw ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 16 October, 2012 Share Posted 16 October, 2012 How about doing what is right ? McKinnon suffers from Apsergers so it is questionable if he is fit to be put on trial. Tory interests and "the right thing" do co-incide sometimes, you know... Anyway, Johnsons "national interest" is only lickey-looing to the Yanks and pretending that the "special relationship" really exists. Lets not pretend he has no agenda. How often do the Yanks extradite US citizens to us under this agreement, btw ? I already said May's decision was the right one. Its doesnt mean you cant respect politicians who have legitimately held differing views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 16 October, 2012 Share Posted 16 October, 2012 I already said May's decision was the right one. Its doesnt mean you cant respect politicians who have legitimately held differing views. He is entitled to say whatever he likes; doesnt mean its a legitimate view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 16 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 16 October, 2012 He is entitled to say whatever he likes; doesnt mean its a legitimate view. Unless inciting something illegal, sure all views are "legitimate"? I don't agree with Johnson but it's a valid opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 16 October, 2012 Share Posted 16 October, 2012 I wonder if the New Jersey State prosecutor saying he wants to "see him fry" has any bearing on the decision. Regardless of his medical situation, at the heart of this is the question of whether he was genuinely looking for data on UFOs, or acting in a hostile manner intended to cause harm to the USA, ( as the US officials have claimed ). I personally doubt that he's as good as the Yanks claim he would have to be to break into their secure systems, and it's more about them covering up their embarrassment at leaving holes in their network perimeter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 16 October, 2012 Share Posted 16 October, 2012 Great news. First we get shot of the hook man now this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stain Posted 16 October, 2012 Share Posted 16 October, 2012 How about doing what is right ? McKinnon suffers from Apsergers so it is questionable if he is fit to be put on trial. Thats a patronising viewpoint. Have you ever met anyone with aspergers? It's also incredibly inconsistent. If he is able enough to hack into US military computers, then he's able to stand trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 16 October, 2012 Share Posted 16 October, 2012 If there is anything in the US claims, why can't he be tried here under the Computer Misuse Act ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 16 October, 2012 Share Posted 16 October, 2012 It's interesting to see the media reaction to this interpretation of the normally despised Human Rights Act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stain Posted 16 October, 2012 Share Posted 16 October, 2012 If there is anything in the US claims, why can't he be tried here under the Computer Misuse Act ? I think they tried to get Alpine using that Act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint137 Posted 16 October, 2012 Share Posted 16 October, 2012 If a crime is committed here, it should be tried here. English justice should be sufficient for foreign powers. The Extradition Act is fundamentally one-sided and unfair and should be repealed, its only their because Blair was in Bush's pocket after 9/11 For all the dodgyness of their dealings (which make the Pompey Takeover Saga look straightforward) the Natwest Three are a prime example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NatWest_Three McKinnon undoubtedly did wrong, but the offence was committed here and should be tried under the Computer Misuse Act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 16 October, 2012 Share Posted 16 October, 2012 If a crime is committed here, it should be tried here. McKinnon undoubtedly did wrong, but the offence was committed here and should be tried under the Computer Misuse Act. This is the problem with cyber crime, technically two crimes took place, the first on this side of the pond being the criminal misuse of a computer system to gain unauthorised access to another computer system, the second at the point where the security perimeter of the US DoD network was breached. ( The classic conundrum is a scenario where a computer in country A is used to remotely access another in country B, and as a result illicitly transfer funds between banking systems in countries C and D - where does the 'crime' take place ? ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stain Posted 16 October, 2012 Share Posted 16 October, 2012 He should be tried in cyber space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 16 October, 2012 Share Posted 16 October, 2012 His mum is quite hot for 62. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 17 October, 2012 Share Posted 17 October, 2012 I really think that this was a trade up for hooky... And all the "disappointment" is being played out in the media. Saying that, that mckinnon fella has committed a crime so should face the punishment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint in Paradise Posted 17 October, 2012 Share Posted 17 October, 2012 The only crime that poor chap committed was to show up how totally useless the so called security was. That is why the U.S. disliked him so much that they wanted revenge, not justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 17 October, 2012 Share Posted 17 October, 2012 The only crime that poor chap committed was to show up how totally useless the so called security was. That is why the U.S. disliked him so much that they wanted revenge, not justice. It's not... He committed a genuine crime .. That is not up for debate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 17 October, 2012 Share Posted 17 October, 2012 It's not... He committed a genuine crime .. That is not up for debate And what is more I suspect he was fully aware that he was doing so. He worked in IT must have known about the CMA. He has admitted under caution leaving the following message on one of the hacked computers : "US foreign policy is akin to Government-sponsored terrorism these days … It was not a mistake that there was a huge security stand down on September 11 last year … I am SOLO. I will continue to disrupt at the highest levels … ". ( Taken from the High Court judgement in 2007 - http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2007/762.html ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotty Posted 17 October, 2012 Share Posted 17 October, 2012 Proof that the British are smarter than Americans. The greatest minds in America securely encrypt the Pentagons computers. Our spastics crack them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pap Posted 17 October, 2012 Share Posted 17 October, 2012 Fair play to Teresa May for standing up to the Americans on this one. Can't deny that McKinnon's acts were criminal, but the US officials were way over the top with their "see him fry" rhetoric. Extradition treaty needs sorting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 17 October, 2012 Share Posted 17 October, 2012 Fair play to Teresa May for standing up to the Americans on this one. Can't deny that McKinnon's acts were criminal, but the US officials were way over the top with their "see him fry" rhetoric. Extradition treaty needs sorting. Why does it need sorting if he is not going? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 17 October, 2012 Share Posted 17 October, 2012 Why does it need sorting if he is not going? Because this case is an exception - the treaty is still heavily distorted to the Yanks' advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 17 October, 2012 Share Posted 17 October, 2012 Because this case is an exception - the treaty is still heavily distorted to the Yanks' advantage. Serious question Can you post various examples.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 17 October, 2012 Share Posted 17 October, 2012 (edited) Serious question Can you post various examples.. Serious answer, try Google : your starter for 1 : http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-qa-may-mckinnon-and-extradition-still-unfair/11673 And a letter from the US Civil Liberties Union to David Milliband : http://www.metro.co.uk/news/727683-uk-us-extradition-treaty-unfair Edited 17 October, 2012 by badgerx16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 17 October, 2012 Share Posted 17 October, 2012 Serious answer, try Google : your starter for 1 : http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-qa-may-mckinnon-and-extradition-still-unfair/11673 Sorry, am on my phone and out... If that is okay with you Could you please summarise with some numbers.... Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 17 October, 2012 Share Posted 17 October, 2012 Thats a patronising viewpoint. Have you ever met anyone with aspergers? It's also incredibly inconsistent. If he is able enough to hack into US military computers, then he's able to stand trial. What utter rubbish. Asperger's has nothing to do with intelligence (in fact many sufferers are incredibly intelligent), and a helluva lot to do with awareness and ability to be held accountable for your actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 17 October, 2012 Share Posted 17 October, 2012 Sorry, am on my phone and out... If that is okay with you Could you please summarise with some numbers.... Cheers No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 17 October, 2012 Share Posted 17 October, 2012 No. Is there any real numbers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 17 October, 2012 Share Posted 17 October, 2012 Are there any real numbers? It isn't a question of 'numbers', it's the 'burden of proof', the level and quality of evidence required to be submitted by one side in request of an extradition warrant served in the other. The Yanks expect to say 'we want him' and for that to be good enough to get their man, whilst we have to roll up with full documentaton and every i dotted and t crossed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 17 October, 2012 Share Posted 17 October, 2012 It isn't a question of 'numbers', it's the 'burden of proof', the level and quality of evidence required to be submitted by one side in request of an extradition warrant served in the other. The Yanks expect to say 'we want him' and for that to be good enough to get their man, whilst we have to roll up with full documentaton and every i dotted and t crossed. That is my point... They don't have their man... Just would like to know.. For such a wonky system, how many times they have clicked their fingers and got their man... More than us so to speak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stain Posted 17 October, 2012 Share Posted 17 October, 2012 What utter rubbish. Asperger's has nothing to do with intelligence (in fact many sufferers are incredibly intelligent), and a helluva lot to do with awareness and ability to be held accountable for your actions. Do you have aspergers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 17 October, 2012 Share Posted 17 October, 2012 Do you have aspergers? Brilliant I dont, and none of my children have it, but two of my cousins children have it. They are as sharp as nails, but very situationally unaware/naiive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stain Posted 17 October, 2012 Share Posted 17 October, 2012 Are they not held responsible for their actions then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 17 October, 2012 Share Posted 17 October, 2012 His mum is quite hot for 62. you must be single at the mo. anyway isnt he Benedict Cumberbatch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 18 October, 2012 Share Posted 18 October, 2012 Are they not held responsible for their actions then? Not really. Their parents try to teach them right from wrong of course, but they are given a lot more lattitude than their siblings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjsaint Posted 18 October, 2012 Share Posted 18 October, 2012 Being a pro-US right-winger but also a father of a boy wth Asperger's, I was torn on this one. Right decision in balance. He caused a lot of damage but at the end of the day nobody died. 70 years' prison is laughable. I do however question the mother in all of this. Surely she knew what he was up to? Did she ever suggest to him that hacking was wrong? Is she somehow (morally, although certainly not legally) culpable in all of this? We have made sure that my son understands that his obsessions cannot interfere with the law, or the rights of others. If Mrs McKinnon or whatever her name is had been a better parent when Gary was growing up, perhaps she wouldn't have needed to go on her little crusade in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonnyboy Posted 18 October, 2012 Share Posted 18 October, 2012 Being a pro-US right-winger but also a father of a boy wth Asperger's, I was torn on this one. Right decision in balance. He caused a lot of damage but at the end of the day nobody died. 70 years' prison is laughable. I do however question the mother in all of this. Surely she knew what he was up to? Did she ever suggest to him that hacking was wrong? Is she somehow (morally, although certainly not legally) culpable in all of this? We have made sure that my son understands that his obsessions cannot interfere with the law, or the rights of others. If Mrs McKinnon or whatever her name is had been a better parent when Gary was growing up, perhaps she wouldn't have needed to go on her little crusade in the first place. So when your kid is 30 any crime he commits is morally your fault, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stain Posted 18 October, 2012 Share Posted 18 October, 2012 Not really. Poor parenting IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjsaint Posted 19 October, 2012 Share Posted 19 October, 2012 So when your kid is 30 any crime he commits is morally your fault, lol. In a way, yes. Basically they cannot have it both ways - either McKinnon is an adult & responsible for his own actions (in which case he should have been extradited like anyone else), or he is unable to control his own actions, in which case he needed keeping an eye on a bit more closely. As I said, the correct decision seems to have been reached. But it is not a clear-cut victory for 'justice' really, is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpine_saint Posted 19 October, 2012 Share Posted 19 October, 2012 Poor parenting IMO. Of course it is. You are utterly clueless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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