50% of the squad from the Academy - is it viable?

[tajjuk]

Pretty much the title really. The club's stated long term aim is to have 50% of the first team squad made up from players from our academy system. Do you think that this will be achievable and will the squad be good enough to regularly compete in the premier league?

 

If we hadn't lost any of youth products since the academy had been set up then (hypothetically) we would have (based against our current squad):-

 

Key First Teamers:- Lallana, Bale, Walcott, Oxlade-Chamberlain.

 

Squad Rotation Players:- Baird, Bridge, Surman, JWP, Dyer.

 

Back Ups:- Shaw, Reeves,

 

That's technically 13 out of a possible 25 so about 50% (a little attack heavy though ), I'm also discounting the likes of Stephens, Blackstock and Best who were from other teams youth academies.

 

(on side note in Wiki 'Southampton Football Club' re-directs you to 'Portsmouth Football Club' http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Southampton_FC&redirect=no )

Edited 15 October, 2012 by tajjuk
Added Dyer

[The Kraken]

Why not? In the side that beat Liverpool 4-1 is the late 80s we had Dodd, Benali, Rod Wallace, Le Tissier and Shearer. That side finished 7th in the league that year.

 

It is a lot more difficult these days though; so the 50% non-academy graduates will need to be very good to supplement the youth. No reason why we shouldn't aim for it an ambition though, as its clearly not a ground breaking idea.

[tajjuk]

Why not? In the side that beat Liverpool 4-1 is the late 80s we had Dodd, Benali, Rod Wallace, Le Tissier and Shearer. That side finished 7th in the league that year.

 

It is a lot more difficult these days though; so the 50% non-academy graduates will need to be very good to supplement the youth. No reason why we shouldn't aim for it an ambition though, as its clearly not a ground breaking idea.

 

I wasn't saying no BTW in case it seemed like I was from the htread, in fact I'm more inclined to agree hence why I posted the example of holding onto the players we have already produced (although a little bit of stretch as it would have seen Bridge being a 'one club man' which these days doesn't happen often). However I think's it's going to take a while, and we will need a JWP equivalent potential player every other year I reckon.

[The9]

Why not? In the side that beat Liverpool 4-1 is the late 80s we had Dodd, Benali, Rod Wallace, Le Tissier and Shearer. That side finished 7th in the league that year.

 

It is a lot more difficult these days though; so the 50% non-academy graduates will need to be very good to supplement the youth. No reason why we shouldn't aim for it an ambition though, as its clearly not a ground breaking idea.

 

I'm sure we could have managed it in the Championship as well, seeing as that's the level of 1980s Div 1 football now a layer of international talent has been grafted onto the top of English football. Actually, we did it in the Championship didn't we ? Got relegated.

 

Seriously though, the chances of getting enough players through AND keeping all of the ones we produce who are good enough over a number of years makes this a bit of a pipe dream. The Academy players will always need to be better than the ones you already have, and that's a tough challenge, especially if they're coming through the same process.

[Saint Garrett]

Erm, yes potentially, although unlikely. The next batch of english players will have to come through someone's academy and if ours is one of the best in europe then why not? Do think it would be hard to bring them through if we're fighting for relegation most seasons though. In the ideal world the young players would be introduced gradually from the bench and then given the opportunities when they're ready, however it's a big ask when the games are worth so much.

 

JWP has been fantastic for us so far this season and looks like he's got a great future. Its a hard one to answer if we don't know how good the players are.

[Matthew Le God]

If we hadn't lost any of youth products since the academy had been set up then (hypothetically) we would have (based against our current squad):-

 

Key First Teamers:- Lallana, Bale, Walcott, Oxlade-Chamberlain.

 

Squad Rotation Players:- Baird, Bridge, Surman, JWP

 

Back Ups:- Shaw, Reeves,

 

Nathan Dyer often overlooked by Saints fans, but was a regular in a team that finished mid table in the Premier League last season.

 

I'm also discounting the likes of Stephens, Blackstock and Best who were from other teams youth academies.

 

Why are you discounting them? They all played at least one season for Southampton's under 18's.

Edited 15 October, 2012 by Matthew Le God

[The Kraken]

I'm sure we could have managed it in the Championship as well, seeing as that's the level of 1980s Div 1 football now a layer of international talent has been grafted onto the top of English football. Actually, we did it in the Championship didn't we ? Got relegated.

 

Seriously though, the chances of getting enough players through AND keeping all of the ones we produce who are good enough over a number of years makes this a bit of a pipe dream. The Academy players will always need to be better than the ones you already have, and that's a tough challenge, especially if they're coming through the same process.

 

I don't think it does. At any point in time a club's squad is going to lean to some degree on its own academy products. Right now though, as genuine first team players we've probably got the lowest ratio of academy players per full squad players I think we've had in a bit of time, so that clearly has to improve. But I believe it can, and staying in the PL is paramount to that.

 

Saying that, if we produce another Bale, Theo or Ox, they'll still get attratced away to the bigger sides. We may get one extra season out of them but we'll never buck the trend of losing the best graduates to the elite of the PL; so it's a very tough ask, no doubt, but by no means a hugely unrealistic one IMO.

[pingwing]

In a longer time scale its very achievable, provided we keep doing the team spirit and positive attitude thing at the club (ie resist mad ego's and squad disruption).

 

As a sub thought how many teams have a high percentage of academy graduates in their first team? (ie from their academy to their own first team).

 

At first guess Newcastle I thought would be the highest, seeing as quite a few Man United academy players have been sold off recently...

Edited 15 October, 2012 by pingwing

[melmacian_saint]

Baird and Surman could probably do starting 11 IMO. Bridge is perhaps slightly past the age so agree with rotation.

[The Kraken]

Why are you discounting them? They all played at least one season for Southampton's under 18's.

 

Is that your benchmark? I can't say it would necessarily be mine. Tough to categorise though.

[Matthew Le God]

Is that your benchmark? I can't say it would necessarily be mine. Tough to categorise though.

 

If they joined at 17 and didn't play any academy games, then I'd agree they aren't academy products. But Best, Blackstock and Stephens all played a season for a Southampton academy team. Yes, they didn't join aged 7 or 8 and train with the academy for 10 years like some do, but they still had at least a year in our academy. That makes them academy products imo.

[Nexstar]

I see it as entirely possible. Still find it quite incredible that JWP has not played at any other standard of league football and yet comes straight into the starting XI, at 17, playing well in the Premier League. He is obviously a great talent, but it is an enormous credit to the setup of our youth system that this prior experience wasn't necessary.

[The Kraken]

If they joined at 17 and didn't play any academy games, then I'd agree they aren't academy products. But Best, Blackstock and Stephens all played a season for a Southampton academy team. Yes, they didn't join aged 7 or 8 and with the academy for 10 years like some do, but they still had at least a year in our academy. That makes them academy products imo.

 

As I say its very tough to categorise. I listed Jason Dodd in my opening post, but he didn't arrive here until he was what, 18 or 19? Yet he's often considered as one of our own (perhaps due to long service rather than coming through the system). On the flip side I'd agree with not calling those particular 3 academy graduates, purely down to the time they came in to the club. Again, to flip that, Theo came in very early but we paid a fee for him, so is he a true academy grad? Its a massively gray area, and there's no right or wrong answer, just diferent measures of interpretation.

 

One thing is for sure; the club will have to get more ruthless to exploit the leg up we've got in attracting young kids, especially those from other lower league clubs. The regs have been relaxed and this could be a good avenue for the club to bolster the academy ranks with quality (even if the morality of the new rules and compensation system still don't sit very well with me).

[Chez]

Is that your benchmark? I can't say it would necessarily be mine. Tough to categorise though.

 

what would you benchmark be? Dodd was one of the players you used as an example and he didn't come through our youth system IMO as he was signed from Bath at the age of 19.

 

Ignore. Just seen you post above.

[tajjuk]

Nathan Dyer often overlooked by Saints fans, but was a regular in a team that finished mid table in the Premier League last season.

 

 

 

Why are you discounting them? They all played at least one season for Southampton's under 18's.

 

I forgot Dyer, so have included him. Oddly 5 of the players can all play right wing.AM - Dyer, Lallana, Walcott, Ox and Bale.

 

I'm only discounting them because I'm not sure what the club's philosophy of academy graduate would be but considering the 'Southampton Way' I would presume players going through the system before 16 is key to fitting this philosophy.

 

In a longer time scale its very achievable, provided we keep doing the team spirit and positive attitude thing at the club (ie resist mad ego's and squad disruption).

 

As a sub thought how many teams have a high percentage of academy graduates in their first team? (ie from their academy to their own first team).

 

At first guess Newcastle I thought would be the highest, seeing as quite a few Man United academy players have been sold off recently...

 

As far as I can see the only academy graduate newcastle have in their first team squad is Steven Taylor.

 

Utd have Evans, Cleverley (although was at Bradfords youth team at 12) Scholes, Giggs (although at City), Wellbeck and Sam Johnstone (sub keeper) in their first team squad. Liverpool have 7 but only 4 have featured.

 

I don't think it does. At any point in time a club's squad is going to lean to some degree on its own academy products. Right now though, as genuine first team players we've probably got the lowest ratio of academy players per full squad players I think we've had in a bit of time, so that clearly has to improve. But I believe it can, and staying in the PL is paramount to that.

 

Saying that, if we produce another Bale, Theo or Ox, they'll still get attratced away to the bigger sides. We may get one extra season out of them but we'll never buck the trend of losing the best graduates to the elite of the PL; so it's a very tough ask, no doubt, but by no means a hugely unrealistic one IMO.

 

Depends where we are, relegation strugglers then a Bale/Ox maybe one or two seasons. Regular top 10 side, we can probably keep that player till he's 21/22, Champs league/euro challengers (Everton ish level) maybe mid 20's. Being in the premier league will massively help though, and then having talented players like that will progress the club at the same time. They will also command a much higher fee with top flight experience.

 

At the same time we will have to follow the Newcastle recruitment policy to fill the gaps, by buying from lesser known leagues/countries, making full use of the EPL's draw (which we did with Ramirez). In fact I think by the signing of the likes of Mayuka and Yoshida show this. Mayuka is the cheap foreign alternative to the English Matt Phillips who would have cost us £8-10 million, the English equivalent Ramirez (there probably isn't one) would have probably cost £25 million plus.

Edited 15 October, 2012 by tajjuk

[pingwing]

As far as I can see the only academy graduate newcastle have in their first team squad is Steven Taylor.

 

Utd have Evans, Cleverley (although was at Bradfords youth team at 12) Scholes, Giggs (although at City), Wellbeck and Sam Johnstone (sub keeper) in their first team squad. Liverpool have 7 but only 4 have featured.

 

Had it in my head Simpsons and Perch were, no idea why as Simpson is ex-United and Perch was at Forest. Both Shola and Sammy Ameobi have been though their academy as well as Steve Harper has been there since he was 18 (close enough to academy sort of product after loitering about the place long enough).

 

Keep thinking Giggs and Scholes have retired (but I'm guessing that's just a prediction thing).

 

Just shows not many teams produce that many academy players for the prem, Liverpool's 7 being a bit of an exception (though looking at where they are in the league it might not be so desirable).

[The Kraken]

Depends where we are, relegation strugglers then a Bale/Ox maybe one or two seasons. Regular top 10 side, we can probably keep that player till he's 21/22, Champs league/euro challengers (Everton ish level) maybe mid 20's. Being in the premier league will massively help though, and then having talented players like that will progress the club at the same time. They will also command a much higher fee with top flight experience.

 

At the same time we will have to follow the Newcastle recruitment policy to fill the gaps, by buying from lesser known leagues/countries, making full use of the EPL's draw (which we did with Ramirez). In fact I think by the signing of the likes of Mayuka and Yoshida show this. Mayuka is the cheap foreign alternative to the English Matt Phillips who would have cost us £8-10 million, the English equivalent Ramirez (there probably isn't one) would have probably cost £25 million plus.

 

I genuinely don't think we could. When players are that promising and the big boys start sniffing around there simply isn't a lot we can do to keep them away. Even if we're a top 10 side or above. We may get lucky where a Lallana-type player comes through and is very comfortable at the club. Saying that, he hasn't really been put to the test with a big-money offer from a top club, so we don't know for sure.

 

You say we could keep players at the club until 21/22, if we were a regular top 10 side. That would mean keeping hold of Walcott and Bale for up to an additional 5 years, and Ox up to an extra 4 years. Unrealistic IMO, if the big clubs come calling. For losing players to sides like Everton, Villa, Newcastle, Sunderland i.e. the types of clubs who we have lost players to before, then yes I'd say there's much more of a case to be made that we could keep our own. But when the top 5 or 6 clubs come calling then its nigh on impossible to keep your stars, and all we can hope for is to extract the best price

[tajjuk]

Had it in my head Simpsons and Perch were, no idea why as Simpson is ex-United and Perch was at Forest. Both Shola and Sammy Ameobi have been though their academy as well as Steve Harper has been there since he was 18 (close enough to academy sort of product after loitering about the place long enough).

 

Keep thinking Giggs and Scholes have retired (but I'm guessing that's just a prediction thing).

 

Just shows not many teams produce that many academy players for the prem, Liverpool's 7 being a bit of an exception (though looking at where they are in the league it might not be so desirable).

 

Yeh I missed Harper and the Ameobis. Liverpools though included Gerard and Carragher at closing stages of their careers and a few youth players who haven't played yet which I think says more about there poor transfer policy this year rather than their academy.

 

I genuinely don't think we could. When players are that promising and the big boys start sniffing around there simply isn't a lot we can do to keep them away. Even if we're a top 10 side or above. We may get lucky where a Lallana-type player comes through and is very comfortable at the club. Saying that, he hasn't really been put to the test with a big-money offer from a top club, so we don't know for sure.

 

You say we could keep players at the club until 21/22, if we were a regular top 10 side. That would mean keeping hold of Walcott and Bale for up to an additional 5 years, and Ox up to an extra 4 years. Unrealistic IMO, if the big clubs come calling. For losing players to sides like Everton, Villa, Newcastle, Sunderland i.e. the types of clubs who we have lost players to before, then yes I'd say there's much more of a case to be made that we could keep our own. But when the top 5 or 6 clubs come calling then its nigh on impossible to keep your stars, and all we can hope for is to extract the best price

 

Yeh maybe not a 'Bale' quality player if a Man Utd/City come calling, but prem status, sound financials mean we should pick up a hefty fee. Had Bale come through now and had a season or so in the prem with those sort of performances he produced for us then I think we could have been looking at £25 million plus. Hopefully schooling them from a young age in the 'Southampton Way' and excellent facilities and a great atmosphere might persuade one or two to stay. Realistically though our best thing would be to produce a level of player just below the Bale or Oxlaide-Chamberlain. Bale is a world-class player and will surely soon be moving to a bigger club than Spurs for a £40 million + fee. Lallana though is below this, he is still a good player and might make the England squad soon but I don't think he will ever be in that bracket wanted by the Real Madrids.

 

Everton held onto Rodwell for a long time, pretty much 5 years, he was always massively rated (although i don;t think has quite lived up to it yet) and was linked to everyone including Real Madrid.

 

Leon Osman I think is the type of player we need to produce and the quality type of youth player we could hold onto, he's very under rated and has been a reliable prem player for Everton for years whilst quietly improving, technically good, determined, hard working, good team player, no off field antics. 5 or 6 of those in our squad loyal to the club and we could go a long way.

[up and away]

If they joined at 17 and didn't play any academy games, then I'd agree they aren't academy products. But Best, Blackstock and Stephens all played a season for a Southampton academy team. Yes, they didn't join aged 7 or 8 and train with the academy for 10 years like some do, but they still had at least a year in our academy. That makes them academy products imo.

 

All clubs do this, it's the only way of getting the right blend across the board. The majority of these players will be where all the Academy spending goes. As long as you can say they were educated according to our standards, I cannot see any issue as them not being products of our Academy, even if having attended a previous Academy.

 

Steve Wigley bought Kenwynne Jones for the development squad, not sure how that one pans out!

[Window Cleaner]

No

 

next question if you please.

[Turkish]

The difficulty is going to be keeping them. As Newcastle, Aston Villa, Sunderland and Everton have shown,it's one thing to develop players, another thing from stopping their heads being turned. Even we we can produce 12 players of premier league standard, th big boys will be sniffing round the best ones straight away.

[Thedelldays]

Not a chance..

[Turkish]

Of course if we want to be a top 6 club it means every player that comes through our academy is going to have to be of international standard. That makes it a no from me.

[supersonic]

I just worry that we'll try and push through youngsters which aren't good enough instead of signing players who are

[Charlie Wayman]

'Friad it doesn't work like that.

[SaintRobbie]

No

 

next question if you please.

 

What he said.

[The Kraken]

Why do people have to get so arsey about something most clubs in the world aspire to? It's purely common sense that long-term you want a lot of your team to have come through the academy. It will work better for some than others, it'll take time regardless, but it's the only sensible strategy nonetheless. Like everything else though we just seem to have people desperate to twist the original comments, make out it's specific to this club then slag it off. Morons.

 

It is specific to this club. They set an aspirational figure of 50% of players to come from the academy; which other clubs have previously done that? It is a sensible target but its a also a set, fixed target which can be compared against.

[tajjuk]

It is specific to this club. They set an aspirational figure of 50% of players to come from the academy; which other clubs have previously done that? It is a sensible target but its a also a set, fixed target which can be compared against.

 

It is specific to this club yes hence why I started the thread, but he is right that there are quite a few arsey one line comments here which are pointless and add nothing:-

 

What he said.

 

 

'Friad it doesn't work like that.

 

 

Not a chance..

 

 

No

 

next question if you please.

[Thedelldays]

Ok... Here is why I say no chance...

 

Only really about 5 clubs in the world are able to keep their best players.. And we are not one of them.

 

If we produce another ox, Bale... The Chelseas, man city's, and man u's, will be all over young talent like a rash.. And they will be gone

 

Look at villa, Everton arsenal in the last few years.. All massively bigger than saints.. All have produced excellent young talent... All have gone

 

What will remain as our 50,% will take us down.

[The9]

The better we get, the tougher it is.

 

Also with the new regulations on youth development it's much more likely we'll start hoovering up players from elsewhere.

[david in sweden]

Pretty much the title really.

 

of course it's viable, but getting that amount of "quality" together in one sqaud at the same time is more unlikely than drawing on the names of successful youngsters over the past 10 years.

 

Someone else quoted the.... MLT , Shearer, Wallaces' squad of the late 1980's which was exciting to watch but needed the help of some "old heads " especially in midfield and struggled to finish above half way, and the club eventually lost patience with the " experimenter " (manager Chris Nicholl)- a much better manager than was given the credit for - and sacked him when we finished 14th in the League.

 

Whilst the very top clubs go out and spend £20-30 million on individual players every season, it will be an uphill task to get all our home-grown players upto the standard required to hold down a place in a Prem. side - let alone qualify for Europe or win something - and although I look forward to seeing a team (mainly) composed of our own talent I doubt very much if even 5-6 such players, would be good enough to get themselves regular places in the first team.without more experienced heads around them.

 

The old adage about not winning anything with youngsters is (sadly) almost always true. MU have been the only real exception in several decades.