Turkish Posted 12 October, 2012 Share Posted 12 October, 2012 (edited) Some of you won't like this. It it seems to be the case according to David James http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2216364/David-James-says-anti-racism-campaigns-football-causing-unnecessary-trouble.html In summary Less black managers because fewer of them do coaching courses Those that do do have been given chances some have failed, some like Chris Houghton have done well And a telling quote 'I struggle with the racist issue because I don't see it' He goes onto say on this link that anti-racism groups have an agenda to keep themselves in existence and doesn't see racism anywhere! http://www.metro.co.uk/sport/914798-david-james-racism-in-football-is-an-agenda-serving-myth This can't be true!!! it does All seems pretty straightforward and common sense and what some have been saying on this issue for a while though. Edited 12 October, 2012 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 12 October, 2012 Share Posted 12 October, 2012 I guess racism isn't as prevalent as it used to be and as such it has become more shocking and newsworthy when it does occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackanorySFC Posted 12 October, 2012 Share Posted 12 October, 2012 Agree with Jamo, hear the odd racist shout at St Marys over the years, but it is always some toothless 50+ year old in a denim jacket and a tatt on their face straight out of Winch nick on his own scaring the **** out of the replica top over a McKenzie hoodie wearing 17 year olds at the back of the Northam that like to bait away fans for 90 minutes then melt into the evening after the game... anyway I digress.... I remember one hilarious report in one paper (I think, shamefully, it was the Sun but I could be wrong) where a black member of some committee or other watched a Millwall v Brighton game at the Den and wrote at how shocked he was that racism was so obvious. No one sat near him (in a half empty stadium with spare seats everywhere) and the crowds were chanting "Seig Heil" throut the game (was actually Brighton fans singing "Seagulls". This is the kind of idiotic rubbish that taints football fans, in fact I'll google it now - must be link somewhere... *hold on* ha ha, brilliant stuff, full article + apology here, this is what we as football fans have to put up with from no nothing do gooders that hold us in contempt: http://www.millwall-history.org.uk/Press_Coverage5.htm The issue of people like Olly Holt of the Mirror and his obsession with the "Rooney Rule" because of not enough black Managers in football infuriates me, hate positive discrimination and "black" (not that I give a **** what colour someone's skin is as long as they can do the job) Managers have been given chances in football but have made a pigs ear of it in Barnes & Ince's cases (Ince was on Football Focus last Saturday and came across as a punch drunk moron in the Merson mould saying "you know" 15+ times). Houghton has done a decent job, never even considered his skin colour, and that goes back to what Jamo says: certain "pressure groups" make big issues out of non issues to make their roles tenable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 12 October, 2012 Share Posted 12 October, 2012 Hooray! Racism in football's been mended! What shall we do now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Mikey Posted 12 October, 2012 Share Posted 12 October, 2012 (edited) I've been saying this for a while. I can't believe that an ultra competitive, money-making industry like football could afford to overlook all these talented young coaches on the basis of their skin colour. Players certainly aren't as they have proven that they are as good as white players. As Jamo says, it seems less black players go into coaching and the few that do demand that they are given jobs, on the basis that if they aren't - it's racist. There must be 1000s of out of work, 'white' coaches that aren't good enough - it's an ultra competitive field. If coaches are good enough, they will get a job - irrespective of skin colour. All IMO, of course... Edited 12 October, 2012 by Saint Mikey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 12 October, 2012 Share Posted 12 October, 2012 Agree in general terms. People will point to isolated cases as proof of a big problem but 30 years ago these incidences would have happened in practically every game and not even been reported. There's a youtube clip of Lawrie Mac laughing off all the fruit that had been hurled at Danny Wallace during a match at Krap Nottarf by saying that we'd be able to open a market stall. The Rooney Rule is a red herring. There is no proper recruitment process in the vast majority of coaching/managerial roles. Targets are identified/tapped up/lined up and then slotted in when the incumbent is fired etc. The other problem is that there is a general sense of entitlement, particularly amongst ex-internationals, that they should be given plumb jobs without putting in the hard graft in the lower leagues or academies - look at Shearer positioning himself for the Blackburn job (how many of today's Prem managers were journeyman? Adkins, Wenger, Rodgers, Fergie, Pullis, AVB, Moyes, Martinez, Alladyce, McDermott). If black managers were doing great jobs in the lower levels and not getting opportunities then they'd definitely have a point but people like Barnes and Ince already had chances - any moaning from them rings hollow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 12 October, 2012 Share Posted 12 October, 2012 I have seen way more racism in life outside of football than in it. All this "Kick it Out" nonsense just perpetuates peoples prejudice against football supporters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Charming Man Posted 12 October, 2012 Share Posted 12 October, 2012 It's quite clear that David James is a racist as well then. Racism is everywhere. Ince would've been manager of Man Utd years ago if he wasn't black. Look at Sol Campbell, he correctly predicted that black people would be assaulted and murdered at the Euros and John Barnes would still be playing for England if he was white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Charming Man Posted 12 October, 2012 Share Posted 12 October, 2012 I have seen way more racism in life outside of football than in it. All this "Kick it Out" nonsense just perpetuates peoples prejudice against football supporters. But authorities have to be seen to be doing something on issues like this or otherwise the do-gooding loons of the world will bang on about how The FA are racist. Soon there will be a 'Kick it In' campaign to promote benders in football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Posted 12 October, 2012 Share Posted 12 October, 2012 Fair play to him. Truth is a lot of people are probably making tidy salaries from all the 'kick it out' campaign sh*te. I've never undersood it, why is there not a 'kick it out' campaign in pubs? Or all the other areas of life where there's plenty more 'racism' then in football. As for the whole Terry/Ferdinad saga. I've lost any respect i may have had fo Ferdinand, what a pathetic c*nt. Think what good causes the millions he's spent on court could have gone on, instead he keeps peddling his little playground arguement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gaz Posted 12 October, 2012 Share Posted 12 October, 2012 If you're good enough to do the job, you get the job. Nothing to do with skin colour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 12 October, 2012 Share Posted 12 October, 2012 It's quite clear that David James is a racist as well then. Racism is everywhere. Ince would've been manager of Man Utd years ago if he wasn't black. Look at Sol Campbell, he correctly predicted that black people would be assaulted and murdered at the Euros and John Barnes would still be playing for England if he was white. You are right, it is everywhere especially if you look at your location. What have you got against the japanese? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 12 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 12 October, 2012 You are right, it is everywhere especially if you look at your location. What have you got against the japanese? most of them are taller than him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 13 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 13 October, 2012 If this thread had been David James saying racism was an issue there would have been hundreds of posts on it by now. Isn't it great that a former England international and well respected figure in the game has come out and said this? It certainly is a break through that a black player feels he can come out and say he doesn't feel discrimated against and say with confidence that if black mangers aren't getting jobs its their own fault not because football is racist. It's great news for equality and hopefully the beginning of the end for this ridiculous positive discrimation we are seeing everywhere and people who fail being able to blame everything but themselves. I'm applaud David James for his comments and am glad to see common sense and self responsibility are being championed by influential figures in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 13 October, 2012 Share Posted 13 October, 2012 Isn't it great to see that all of those anti-racism campaigns have had such a positive effect. There used to be a problem with racism and now there isn't. Hope they keep up the good work and don't let things slide back to how it used to be. If this thread had been David James saying racism was an issue there would have been hundreds of posts on it by now. I agree with this, although I think you would have made most of those posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stain Posted 13 October, 2012 Share Posted 13 October, 2012 One black person says there's no racism in football, so that must be true. Lots of other players say there is racism in football, lots of organisations try to rid football of racism, they must be liars/whingers/simply creating jobs for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 13 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 13 October, 2012 One black person says there's no racism in football, so that must be true. Lots of other players say there is racism in football, lots of organisations try to rid football of racism, they must be liars/whingers/simply creating jobs for themselves. Sorry, how many other players and who are saying it is an issue in this country? And what's your view on the managers? Do you agree with David James or is he lying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solentstars Posted 13 October, 2012 Share Posted 13 October, 2012 One black person says there's no racism in football, so that must be true. Lots of other players say there is racism in football, lots of organisations try to rid football of racism, they must be liars/whingers/simply creating jobs for themselves. Don't bite mate he's trolling the guy looks for one person to justify his views .I expect he's missing his sidekick dunne. Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 13 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 13 October, 2012 Don't bite mate he's trolling the guy looks for one person to justify his views .I expect he's missing his sidekick dunne. Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk 2 What views would they be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorpe-le-Saint Posted 14 October, 2012 Share Posted 14 October, 2012 Do we not need to distinguish between 'Football: the organisation' and 'Football: the culture'? In organisations such as the FA, Football Clubs etc then James is probably right, racism probably is not a factor by any stretch of the imagination. However, 'Football: the culture' I would argue still has its racist elements. I can remember one tool years ago for example at The Dell who when playing Everton decided that the best thing to do to cheer on his team was to constantly remind Earl Barrat that he was black. We then have those ****s at Millwall last week vesus Bolton. As one poster mentioned above, thankfully these morons are a minority, but to say that football is totally free of racism is wide of the mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 14 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 14 October, 2012 Do we not need to distinguish between 'Football: the organisation' and 'Football: the culture'? In organisations such as the FA, Football Clubs etc then James is probably right, racism probably is not a factor by any stretch of the imagination. However, 'Football: the culture' I would argue still has its racist elements. I can remember one tool years ago for example at The Dell who when playing Everton decided that the best thing to do to cheer on his team was to constantly remind Earl Barrat that he was black. We then have those ****s at Millwall last week vesus Bolton. As one poster mentioned above, thankfully these morons are a minority, but to say that football is totally free of racism is wide of the mark. Earl Barratt? That was 20 years ago!!! Things have moved on since then fella! The reality is that at football in 28,500 you're going to get one or two, but that is all it is and no amount of kick racism out campaigns or black managers being given jobs is going to change that. The best thing you can do is self police it if you don't like it, there are plenty of people who will if you're too scared too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
This Charming Man Posted 15 October, 2012 Share Posted 15 October, 2012 You are right, it is everywhere especially if you look at your location. What have you got against the japanese? By refusing to spell Japan with a capital letter, are you refusing to acknowledge that they are a country? I think the real question here is what do YOU have against the Japanese? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Saint Posted 15 October, 2012 Share Posted 15 October, 2012 By refusing to spell Japan with a capital letter, are you refusing to acknowledge that they are a country? I think the real question here is what do YOU have against the Japanese? You really are quite bizarre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 15 October, 2012 Share Posted 15 October, 2012 I'm not sure of the point being made on this thread. You seem to be pointing out that improvement has been made and people's attitude towards race has become more tolerant and fair. You also seem to be supporting that this is a good thing. Yet at the same time I get the idea, maybe wrongly, that you are not keen on exactly the sorts of groups and projects that have pushed for this kind of change in perspective. People haven't just changed miraculously over the last 20 or 30 years, it's the result of a deliberate attempt to educate and to foster understanding about race and racism. It would also be naive to think that you should just stop encouraging race tolerance and equality now that things have improved. It definitely is better than it used to be. that's down to people being more PC, not "PC gone mad", just being more PC. In many cases now, probably most, black people in football are treated exactly the same as white people. That's good, but in some cases there will still be racist individuals who will not be fair, so race awareness programs should certainly not just stop. It's not an issue that's just "finished now", because it's improved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 15 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 15 October, 2012 What I'm saying is its a great thing that this is the case. And it also proves that all the nonsense spouted by certain individuals is that football is racist, black managers don't get a chance and everyone has it in for them is a lot of boll*cks as many of us on here have said in the past and been shouted down. David James says why there aren't many black managers and that is becaus there aren't many putting themselves forward to do it. It's as simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRM Posted 15 October, 2012 Share Posted 15 October, 2012 If anything I would say football is more racist now , white people are under-represented in the England team especially at some of the youth levels. What is the proposed action to address this imbalance ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 15 October, 2012 Share Posted 15 October, 2012 What I'm saying is its a great thing that this is the case. And it also proves that all the nonsense spouted by certain individuals is that football is racist, black managers don't get a chance and everyone has it in for them is a lot of boll*cks as many of us on here have said in the past and been shouted down. David James says why there aren't many black managers and that is becaus there aren't many putting themselves forward to do it. It's as simple as that. I haven't heard anyone say "football is racist", perhaps you could give a few examples of where this has been said. I have on the other hand heard people say that there is racism in football, which is undoubtedly true. There's racism in all walks of life because there are ignorant people around. football needs to take steps where there is racism, just like other sections of society do, and against any form of unfair discrimination. The situation may be much better than it was and there may be lots of people who, like David James, have managed to progress without problems from racism. But we all know it exists, we all probably know somebody who is racist, so the issue isn't over and will probably exist to some extent well beyond our lifetimes. Football's not racist, but there is racism in football and it should be addressed. Most black players and managers are given equal chances, but it shouldn't be taken for granted and efforts to promote racial equality shouldn't just be dropped. I haven't seen it said on here or anywhere else that black managers don't get a chance, you'll have to provide a link, but a lot of people working in football will face discrimination and there's no reason that should be tolerated just because it's not as bad as it used to be. Is it your opinion that people who have witnessed racial discrimination in football should be "shouted down", because you could be in danger of giving that impression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAS Posted 15 October, 2012 Share Posted 15 October, 2012 Some of you won't like this. It it seems to be the case according to David James http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2216364/David-James-says-anti-racism-campaigns-football-causing-unnecessary-trouble.html In summary Less black managers because fewer of them do coaching courses Those that do do have been given chances some have failed, some like Chris Houghton have done well And a telling quote 'I struggle with the racist issue because I don't see it' He goes onto say on this link that anti-racism groups have an agenda to keep themselves in existence and doesn't see racism anywhere! http://www.metro.co.uk/sport/914798-david-james-racism-in-football-is-an-agenda-serving-myth This can't be true!!! it does All seems pretty straightforward and common sense and what some have been saying on this issue for a while though.The daily mail really is the right paper to get an unbiased opinion from! David James is a clever bloke and it looks to me that a few on here have cherry picked individual quotes and expanded on them, whether they are in the full context of what DJ was articulating I'm not so sure. The video only shows him saying the issue with JT should have been dealt with there and then as with any other racism issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 15 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 15 October, 2012 (edited) The daily mail really is the right paper to get an unbiased opinion from! David James is a clever bloke and it looks to me that a few on here have cherry picked individual quotes and expanded on them, whether they are in the full context of what DJ was articulating I'm not so sure. The video only shows him saying the issue with JT should have been dealt with there and then as with any other racism issue. That just happened to be the paper I used, it was in all of them. You've conviniently ignored the metro which is arguably more critical of anti racism campaign groups. And We might be taking James comments out of context I said some of you woldnt like it didn't i!! Interesting That people accuse the paper again and need to suggest people have an agenda rather than approve Jsmes comments. If it it had been an article talking about how much racism is in football certain people would have been all over this thread. No quarter given for comments to be taken out of context and so on! Edited 15 October, 2012 by Turkish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersonic Posted 16 October, 2012 Share Posted 16 October, 2012 Bet David James feels a bit silly now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 16 October, 2012 Share Posted 16 October, 2012 Bet David James feels a bit silly now Maybe he never played a game in Serbia........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 16 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 16 October, 2012 Bet David James feels a bit silly now Why? He was talking about in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stain Posted 16 October, 2012 Share Posted 16 October, 2012 There is no racism in football in this country, there is no racism in football in this country, there is no racism in football in this country, there is no racism in football in this country, there is no racism in football in this country..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 17 October, 2012 Share Posted 17 October, 2012 I think a great deal of racism in football in England is talked about without it actually being there... Some ex player was on 5 live the other week after Ashley Cole has a twitter rant... He was saying that it was important that Cole was not dropped by England as he was desperate to see a "black" player get 100 caps It was not until that point (and this was highlighted by Alan Greene) that I did not see Cole as a black player... But just another player :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 17 October, 2012 Share Posted 17 October, 2012 Marvin Sordell disagrees it would seem The Football Association is investigating claims by Marvin Sordell that Bolton players were racially abused during their loss to Millwall. Sordell, 21, said on Twitter that derogatory remarks were made to him and team-mates Lee Chung-Yong, Darren Pratley and Benik Afobe at The Den. "Chungy, Pratts, Benik and I had all sorts of things said to us," the England under-21 international tweeted. Sordell also wrote on the social networking site: "Putting the match aside, it's 2012 in England and people are still shouting racial abuse at a football game?" http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19859680 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stain Posted 17 October, 2012 Share Posted 17 October, 2012 He's clearly just making that up. There is no racism n football in this country, David James and Turkish said so. Oh, and thedelldays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint137 Posted 18 October, 2012 Share Posted 18 October, 2012 Survey went live a couple of days ago from KickItOut - worth having your say http://populuslive.spss-asp.com/ASP/P001557/flash2.asp?&device=desktop&manuf=generic&ismobile=n And the Torygraph have sent a letter to UEFA: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/england/9616504/After-hateful-scenes-at-England-U21s-Serbia-clash-enough-is-enough-an-open-letter-to-Uefa-president-Michel-Platini.html Given that they have charged Danny Rose and England with misconduct I can only hope they find us guilty and ban Danny for 3 matches (a reasonable expectation given what he did). Then in response I would hope the FA would finally grow a pair and refuse to play in the U21 finals next summer - we need a Basil D'Oliveira moment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil_D'Oliveira#The_D.27Oliveira_Affair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Posted 18 October, 2012 Share Posted 18 October, 2012 There is no racism in football in this country, there is no racism in football in this country, there is no racism in football in this country, there is no racism in football in this country, there is no racism in football in this country..... When did anyone say that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 18 October, 2012 Share Posted 18 October, 2012 Reading striker Jason Roberts also a little upset about Racism in football.... Reading striker Jason Roberts will not wear a 'Kick It Out' T-shirt in protest at what he perceives to be the campaign group's lack of action in combating racism in football. Roberts added: "I'm totally committed to kicking racism out of football but when there's a movement I feel represents the issue in the way that speaks for me and my colleagues, then I will happily support it. "I think people feel let down by what used to be called 'Let's Kick Racism Out of Football'." http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/19994204 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the stain Posted 18 October, 2012 Share Posted 18 October, 2012 When did anyone say that? Read the thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norwaysaint Posted 18 October, 2012 Share Posted 18 October, 2012 I'm still waiting for Turkish to tell link me to where somebody said "football is racist" (Turkish tells us that more than one poster has said just this) or where somebody said black players aren't being given a chance (this has also apparently been said by individuals, plural, on this board). I asked him about both in post 27, but he's gone a bit shy since then. I was also asking him if he'd agree that there is racism in football, just as there is in most walks of life and whether he thinks it should be ignored or addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 19 October, 2012 Share Posted 19 October, 2012 Sir Alex wading in on Jason Roberts stance on the kick out campagin http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20003368 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilippineSaint Posted 19 October, 2012 Share Posted 19 October, 2012 The British are probably the most non racist people in the world we take anybody in allow them to have there own communities. We also migrate and integrate into foreign communities admittedly after ruling them for a few hundred years, but we are still out there travelling the world and do not insist that the communities that we live in have British laws we respect the local ones. The problem is the " I am entitled to this and that" state that the UK has become. Make people work for the right to have benefits. Ok youngsters havent a job but they can still go to college instead of having three kids at 16/17 and then living of the state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 19 October, 2012 Share Posted 19 October, 2012 David James must be looking in the wrong place........ it would seem Police have arrested a man on suspicion of racial harassment after a comment about a Premier League footballer was posted on a social networking site. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-20004111 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 21 October, 2012 Share Posted 21 October, 2012 Is the kick racism out of football dead in the water now the ferdinands a few others have refused to wear a t shirt before a match . Ferguson will be lived that Ferdinand disobeyed his gaffer . But the good old PFA are getting behind the barrack room layer. I think lge ferdinands attitude have played into the hands of the racists x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 21 October, 2012 Author Share Posted 21 October, 2012 I'm still waiting for Turkish to tell link me to where somebody said "football is racist" (Turkish tells us that more than one poster has said just this) or where somebody said black players aren't being given a chance (this has also apparently been said by individuals, plural, on this board). I asked him about both in post 27, but he's gone a bit shy since then. I was also asking him if he'd agree that there is racism in football, just as there is in most walks of life and whether he thinks it should be ignored or addressed. Where have I said 'more than one poster has said football is racist'? As for black managers not given a chance. Plenty of moaning from the likes of Paul Ince that they've not been given a fair chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilippineSaint Posted 21 October, 2012 Share Posted 21 October, 2012 Is the kick racism out of football dead in the water now the ferdinands a few others have refused to wear a t shirt before a match . Ferguson will be lived that Ferdinand disobeyed his gaffer . But the good old PFA are getting behind the barrack room layer. I think lge ferdinands attitude have played into the hands of the racists x The Ferdinand's of this world want racism to be a part of it so they can say "look how hard done by we are by all the nasty Racist's out there" They are by default the racist's that we need to be acting against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilippineSaint Posted 21 October, 2012 Share Posted 21 October, 2012 Where have I said 'more than one poster has said football is racist'? As for black managers not given a chance. Plenty of moaning from the likes of Paul Ince that they've not been given a fair chance. Is that just after he's been sacked for being a rubbish manager ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 22 October, 2012 Share Posted 22 October, 2012 Someone else that doesn't agree with Mr James http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20025114 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 22 October, 2012 Share Posted 22 October, 2012 Seems to me that English football is being made out to have a problem due to two comments by players in the last how ever many years The 24 news reporting on who did or didn't wear some t shirt is dull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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