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The Peter Principle


saint_sinner

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The Peter Principle is a belief that, in an organization where promotion is based on achievement, success, and merit, that organization's members will eventually be promoted beyond their level of ability. The principle is commonly phrased, "employees tend to rise to their level of incompetence." Or in Nigels case, he was competent in League 1 and the Championship but now finds himself totally out of his depth without the competence to take us forward.

 

Solution:

 

One way that organizations can avoid this effect is by having an "up or out" policy that requires termination of an employee who fails to attain a promotion after a certain amount of time. Example: A people manager is able to handle the vast majority of his or her current job responsibilities, but does not reveal the skill set necessary for promotion. The people manager possesses the potential to cause harm within the company, by way of preventing those beneath them with higher potential from moving up, as well as lowering morale once such employees become aware of this fact.

 

After yesterday, I feel we are a rudderless ship!

 

So is Nigel the right man for Southampton to stay in this league or is he woefully out of his depth?

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The Peter Principle is a belief that, in an organization where promotion is based on achievement, success, and merit, that organization's members will eventually be promoted beyond their level of ability. The principle is commonly phrased, "employees tend to rise to their level of incompetence." Or in Nigels case, he was competent in League 1 and the Championship but now finds himself totally out of his depth without the competence to take us forward.

 

Solution:

 

One way that organizations can avoid this effect is by having an "up or out" policy that requires termination of an employee who fails to attain a promotion after a certain amount of time. Example: A people manager is able to handle the vast majority of his or her current job responsibilities, but does not reveal the skill set necessary for promotion. The people manager possesses the potential to cause harm within the company, by way of preventing those beneath them with higher potential from moving up, as well as lowering morale once such employees become aware of this fact.

 

After yesterday, I feel we are a rudderless ship!

 

So is Nigel the right man for Southampton to stay in this league or is he woefully out of his depth?

Like there aren't already enough boring anti-Adkins threads on here.....
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I have said in the past that NA is a GREAT Div 1 manager a GOOD Championship manager but I think he is out of his depth, maybe an experienced Director of Football would help (ie Benitez) but I cant recall a team anywhere where a Dir of Football made a Measurable Difference, so I guess we support NA or keep the NA threads going

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Your solution is a bit drastic isn't it. You are saying you want to terminate Nigel! Aside from that, the example you give is totally irrelevant to the circumstances. I disagree with your conclusions as well. Nice bit of management theory codswallop though.

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The Peter Principle is a belief that, in an organization where promotion is based on achievement, success, and merit, that organization's members will eventually be promoted beyond their level of ability. The principle is commonly phrased, "employees tend to rise to their level of incompetence." Or in Nigels case, he was competent in League 1 and the Championship but now finds himself totally out of his depth without the competence to take us forward.

 

Solution:

 

One way that organizations can avoid this effect is by having an "up or out" policy that requires termination of an employee who fails to attain a promotion after a certain amount of time. Example: A people manager is able to handle the vast majority of his or her current job responsibilities, but does not reveal the skill set necessary for promotion. The people manager possesses the potential to cause harm within the company, by way of preventing those beneath them with higher potential from moving up, as well as lowering morale once such employees become aware of this fact.

 

After yesterday, I feel we are a rudderless ship! So is Nigel the right man for Southampton to stay in this league or is he woefully out of his depth?

 

 

I am well familair with The Peter Principle..... having read it decades ago and observed it in organisations that I was employed in (at that time ).

 

However, based on your interpretation of it ....can you explain why the managers of the three clubs beneath us in the League haven't been sacked yet ?

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What have you seen from coming back from the future?

Adkins has white hair, bulging eyes and a silly grin. He keeps giggling all the time and talking to himself muttering 'if only I'd listened to them'. He would have been England's most successful manager ever if he hadn't accidentally left the team sheet on the bus on the way to the World Cup finals in Antarctica 2030. I tried asking him about Saints but all he would say was 'those suntzus never really believed in me'. Then it all went a bit blurry. Sorry, that's all I got.

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However, based on your interpretation of it ....can you explain why the managers of the three clubs beneath us in the League haven't been sacked yet ?

This is due to the Dolson Principle. People can be demoted to their level of incompetence rather than promoted. The higher the level of management the easier the job. The logical outcome of this would be to demote Adkins to the Physio job and put Cortese in as manager of the team. That was what Lowe tried to do so it must be a good idea - or did Lowe just promote people randomly?

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The Peter Principle is a belief that, in an organization where promotion is based on achievement, success, and merit, that organization's members will eventually be promoted beyond their level of ability. The principle is commonly phrased, "employees tend to rise to their level of incompetence." Or in Nigels case, he was competent in League 1 and the Championship but now finds himself totally out of his depth without the competence to take us forward.

 

Solution:

 

One way that organizations can avoid this effect is by having an "up or out" policy that requires termination of an employee who fails to attain a promotion after a certain amount of time. Example: A people manager is able to handle the vast majority of his or her current job responsibilities, but does not reveal the skill set necessary for promotion. The people manager possesses the potential to cause harm within the company, by way of preventing those beneath them with higher potential from moving up, as well as lowering morale once such employees become aware of this fact.

 

After yesterday, I feel we are a rudderless ship!

 

So is Nigel the right man for Southampton to stay in this league or is he woefully out of his depth?

 

I hope to god you are a massive troll and that people are not really this idiotic.

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The Peter Principle is a belief that, in an organization where promotion is based on achievement, success, and merit, that organization's members will eventually be promoted beyond their level of ability. The principle is commonly phrased, "employees tend to rise to their level of incompetence." Or in Nigels case, he was competent in League 1 and the Championship but now finds himself totally out of his depth without the competence to take us forward.

 

Solution:

 

One way that organizations can avoid this effect is by having an "up or out" policy that requires termination of an employee who fails to attain a promotion after a certain amount of time. Example: A people manager is able to handle the vast majority of his or her current job responsibilities, but does not reveal the skill set necessary for promotion. The people manager possesses the potential to cause harm within the company, by way of preventing those beneath them with higher potential from moving up, as well as lowering morale once such employees become aware of this fact.

 

After yesterday, I feel we are a rudderless ship!

 

So is Nigel the right man for Southampton to stay in this league or is he woefully out of his depth?

Look at the table, the mighty Newcastle are 10th with 9 pts. And we are not even in the relegation places being 5 points behind Newcastle - My point is should all Managers within a particular range of points be sacked or should we stop being so negative after every time we lose. Did you really expect to be pushing for a Champions League place this year, or would 4th from bottom be a success? I trust in NA to keep us out of the bottom three.
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Ok, this is a little frustrating as I posted the opening quote earlier today on the board, meaning it in quite a different context (almost the opposite to what that OP implied).

 

The way I see it the squad we had was very good for / played very well together in League 1. Then with only a few changes they played very well in Championship. In each case the reward for the success we had was to be promoted up to a far more difficult stage, until we reach a point where we are no longer top dogs running away with it, and instead for the first time in years find ourselves struggling and battling away for every single point.

 

It was inevitably going to happen, and to quote a current Muse album track, our meteoric rise was

. We are having to experience a shift in our attitudes, expectations and position in the system and it's uncomfortable. The players we have are collectively now one of the weakest in the league - understandably given its strength. In my opinion Adkins has not suddenly become a terrible manager after 2 years of genius, but just finds himself playing with a far, far weaker hand (relatively to the competition, no doubt the squad itself has improved) than in the past and has actually got the team making a good fist of most games (probably Wigan excluded), even if the end results so far have been disappointing with a series of defensive errors and inability to see games out.

 

My invocation of the Peter Principle was in relation to the squad through the divisions, not of Adkins to the rank of manager.

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Adkins is being given 10 games I feel, you could see something isn't right it in his face on Sunday when we scored and he had a vacant look....the signs are there...maybe the required points tally is unachievable with the remaining games...who knows, but something is weighing heavy on Adkins. It was the same look when we achieved promotion last season. The TV crew cut to the manager, and he had this bewildering look in his eye, same as on Sunday....like he had delivered what he had been contracted to do and now it was all over.

 

Its a difficult one. Adkins is an amazing man and I do rate him as a Champ/L1 manager but, as has been pointed out, time and time again he is unproven in the the Prem. Ok you might ask, how is he supposed to get experience without being there and learning...fair point, but as we all know, there is no sentiment in football.

 

So, the way I see it we have 2 options:

1. Stick with Adkins, go down, stick with Adkins...he learns, we come back stronger.

2. Show Adkins the door and employ a proven Prem manager with no guarantees of staying up.

 

I looked at the Vote thread about should he stay or go, and I mulled it over and voted to go, which I feel ashamed to admit, I think he should be just told, come what may you are the manager for the next 2 seasons and just get on with it, but we all know how Mr C works, he is a hard, hard proven business man and I think he will move for a new manager.

 

One final thing to think about, the consistent and most successful teams in the Prem stick with the same manager, its a fact, something that Everton and discovering now. Chopping and changing is a short term fix.

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So, the way I see it we have 2 options:

1. Stick with Adkins, go down, stick with Adkins...he learns, we come back stronger.

2. Show Adkins the door and employ a proven Prem manager with no guarantees of staying up.

 

3. Stick with Adkins, don't go down, get stronger next year.

 

We aren't even in the relegation zone FFS, having played nearly all the top teams already.

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If it was your multimillion pound business that Nigel was in charge of and he'd made some cataclysmic errors that were there for all to see resulting in 1 point from 4 games that we were winning, what would you do if you were Nicola?

 

Get someone to steady the ship with the ability, competence and experience to take us forward? or stick with Nigel and roll the dice

 

also in response to the 3 managers below us and 1 above, M Hughes - borrowed time C Hughton - borrowed time B McDermott - He'll be fine P Lambert - borrowed time

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I have said in the past that NA is a GREAT Div 1 manager a GOOD Championship manager but I think he is out of his depth, maybe an experienced Director of Football would help (ie Benitez) but I cant recall a team anywhere where a Dir of Football made a Measurable Difference, so I guess we support NA or keep the NA threads going

 

Apart from the fact that you have said it before, on what grounds do you base your judgement ??

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3. Stick with Adkins, don't go down, get stronger next year.

 

That is of course a valid outcome, but as Saint Sinner correctly states:

 

If it was your multimillion pound business that Nigel was in charge of and he'd made some cataclysmic errors that were there for all to see resulting in 1 point from 4 games that we were winning, what would you do if you were Nicola?

 

Get someone to steady the ship with the ability, competence and experience to take us forward? or stick with Nigel and roll the dice

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Anti-Adkins threads seem symptomatic of a lack of patience/want it now generation - the irony so often lost on these boards is taht when things are going weel, fans want continuity of leadership - the 10 year + manager we are told leads to success... yet the moment a manager needs time to figure it out, earn and gain the epxerience at a higher level, some seem to reach for the knives - which is it to be?

 

This aint about sentimentality - its about a belief that for long term success, you need stabilty and a club that is committed to building a culture, system and style based on a common goal form U12 - to first team - that takes more than 3 years, try 8-10. Therefore it goes without saying that if thats the aim a club and its fans need to grow some and stick with it despite the possibilty of set backs along the way.

 

The only reason for this 'panic' is money - the fear of loosing the sky millions for a season or two and too many clubs wil never do anything better because this fear governs their entire strategy - I like to think we have ball large enough to cope with the difficulties that come with focusing on the long term - stick with it and we may well be surrised as the results it can yield... enjoy the ride FFS and stop worying about what may or may not happen in teh short term.

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Anti-Adkins threads seem symptomatic of a lack of patience/want it now generation - the irony so often lost on these boards is taht when things are going weel, fans want continuity of leadership - the 10 year + manager we are told leads to success... yet the moment a manager needs time to figure it out, earn and gain the epxerience at a higher level, some seem to reach for the knives - which is it to be?

 

This aint about sentimentality - its about a belief that for long term success, you need stabilty and a club that is committed to building a culture, system and style based on a common goal form U12 - to first team - that takes more than 3 years, try 8-10. Therefore it goes without saying that if thats the aim a club and its fans need to grow some and stick with it despite the possibilty of set backs along the way.

 

The only reason for this 'panic' is money - the fear of loosing the sky millions for a season or two and too many clubs wil never do anything better because this fear governs their entire strategy - I like to think we have ball large enough to cope with the difficulties that come with focusing on the long term - stick with it and we may well be surrised as the results it can yield... enjoy the ride FFS and stop worying about what may or may not happen in teh short term.

 

Excellent post Frank !

(apart from the spelling of course:))

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Anti-Adkins threads seem symptomatic of a lack of patience/want it now generation - the irony so often lost on these boards is taht when things are going weel, fans want continuity of leadership - the 10 year + manager we are told leads to success... yet the moment a manager needs time to figure it out, earn and gain the epxerience at a higher level, some seem to reach for the knives - which is it to be?

 

This aint about sentimentality - its about a belief that for long term success, you need stabilty and a club that is committed to building a culture, system and style based on a common goal form U12 - to first team - that takes more than 3 years, try 8-10. Therefore it goes without saying that if thats the aim a club and its fans need to grow some and stick with it despite the possibilty of set backs along the way.

 

The only reason for this 'panic' is money - the fear of loosing the sky millions for a season or two and too many clubs wil never do anything better because this fear governs their entire strategy - I like to think we have ball large enough to cope with the difficulties that come with focusing on the long term - stick with it and we may well be surrised as the results it can yield... enjoy the ride FFS and stop worying about what may or may not happen in teh short term.

 

Agree 100% here Franko. Everton did not sack Moyes on the basis of one bad season and look at their team now. I would be prepared to go down with NA and build up again. I believe he is a very good manager and we are lucky to have him. The system is fine, the players just need to get used to each other, the way of playing and improve.

 

We dropped back on Sun as both Jos and Jose were frightened of Rodallega's pace.

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Anti-Adkins threads seem symptomatic of a lack of patience/want it now generation - the irony so often lost on these boards is taht when things are going weel, fans want continuity of leadership - the 10 year + manager we are told leads to success... yet the moment a manager needs time to figure it out, earn and gain the epxerience at a higher level, some seem to reach for the knives - which is it to be?

 

This aint about sentimentality - its about a belief that for long term success, you need stabilty and a club that is committed to building a culture, system and style based on a common goal form U12 - to first team - that takes more than 3 years, try 8-10. Therefore it goes without saying that if thats the aim a club and its fans need to grow some and stick with it despite the possibilty of set backs along the way.

 

The only reason for this 'panic' is money - the fear of loosing the sky millions for a season or two and too many clubs wil never do anything better because this fear governs their entire strategy - I like to think we have ball large enough to cope with the difficulties that come with focusing on the long term - stick with it and we may well be surrised as the results it can yield... enjoy the ride FFS and stop worying about what may or may not happen in teh short term.

 

 

............. and the number of skates posting on this forum

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Anti-Adkins threads seem symptomatic of a lack of patience/want it now generation - the irony so often lost on these boards is taht when things are going weel, fans want continuity of leadership - the 10 year + manager we are told leads to success... yet the moment a manager needs time to figure it out, earn and gain the epxerience at a higher level, some seem to reach for the knives - which is it to be?

 

This aint about sentimentality - its about a belief that for long term success, you need stabilty and a club that is committed to building a culture, system and style based on a common goal form U12 - to first team - that takes more than 3 years, try 8-10. Therefore it goes without saying that if thats the aim a club and its fans need to grow some and stick with it despite the possibilty of set backs along the way.

 

The only reason for this 'panic' is money - the fear of loosing the sky millions for a season or two and too many clubs wil never do anything better because this fear governs their entire strategy - I like to think we have ball large enough to cope with the difficulties that come with focusing on the long term - stick with it and we may well be surrised as the results it can yield... enjoy the ride FFS and stop worying about what may or may not happen in teh short term.

 

I agree with you other than to say our long term plan wont work in the championship and 1 win in 7 and -8 goal difference frightens the hell out of me.

If we were playing well and losing on the basis of being outplayed and out classed then fair enough, but we are not. We only lost those games because we made tactical changes which left every fan watching scratching their head.

 

I really do want Nigel to succeed but Cortese absolutely will not allow us to go down and come back stronger.

There will unfortunately be a point where it wont be tolerated any more

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Going down and being stronger next year is such a romantic idea that simply would not happen

 

Adkins would be gone before then and so would some of our players

 

 

We already know there is a loan against next season's money so that would make us weaker than now/last season

 

The fans would be anti Cortese and sms would not be a nice place to go to

Club employees would be made redundant... Sections of the ground would be closed off again...

To think we will sit by and watch adkins lose every week (hypothetically) just to serve a romantic idea and plain lunacy

 

If we are this bad in 5 games time. Letting in 3 goals... Have about 5 points in total... I would expect adkins to resign personally

 

 

Look at Bolton... Kept their manager who they loved...

Edited by Thedelldays
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I agree with you other than to say our long term plan wont work in the championship and 1 win in 7 and -8 goal difference frightens the hell out of me.

If we were playing well and losing on the basis of being outplayed and out classed then fair enough, but we are not. We only lost those games because we made tactical changes which left every fan watching scratching their head.I really do want Nigel to succeed but Cortese absolutely will not allow us to go down and come back stronger.

There will unfortunately be a point where it wont be tolerated any more

 

What are you on about? We were outclassed by City for much of the game but Adkins made changes which gave us a chance of winning the game. The momentum in the Utd game had firmly swung in Utd's favour before he made the subs, we were simply done by a much better team at Arsenal and Everton have been one the strongest sides to play away in the Prem for a long time. On Sunday he clearly said that we made the changes to help us defend from the front better. The tatic was right but he couldn't help the individual errors which happened after.

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What are you on about? We were outclassed by City for much of the game but Adkins made changes which gave us a chance of winning the game. The momentum in the Utd game had firmly swung in Utd's favour before he made the subs, we were simply done by a much better team at Arsenal and Everton have been one the strongest sides to play away in the Prem for a long time. On Sunday he clearly said that we made the changes to help us defend from the front better. The tatic was right but he couldn't help the individual errors which happened after.

 

There is no point trying to reason with some of these WUMs.

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Don't think they are all WUMS. Some just love their opinions a little too much, I bet they love sniffing their own **** and think it smells amazing.

 

I ask the same question to you

 

On current form.. How long do you think adkins will last... Not how long you want him to last

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I ask the same question to you

 

On current form.. How long do you think adkins will last... Not how long you want him to last

 

I think that as long as by our 19th league game we have at least 15 points then Adkins would be ok. That is just under the one point per game that would keep us up and with the transfer window to help as well. Any less than that and serious questions would be asked.

 

However, with the run we have up to Arsenal at home on NYD I think we will be averaging over 1 point per game and be on course to stay up.

 

Pretty clear our start was horrendous and performances have been good in patches. As others have said, despite that start we are somehow out the bottom three. Now the next ten games we need to push on and get at least 4 wins.

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Next 3 I can see 1 point max

 

That will be at home to spurs or away to wba

 

 

West Ham with batter our defence...

So that will leave 5 games to get 10 points

 

And so something we have never looked like doing yet... Winning away

 

 

If we are as woeful I would not be surprised if a changed is made early December....... Just hope things change

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Next 3 I can see 1 point max

 

That will be at home to spurs or away to wba

 

 

West Ham with batter our defence...

So that will leave 5 games to get 10 points

 

And so something we have never looked like doing yet... Winning away

 

 

If we are as woeful I would not be surprised if a changed is made early December....... Just hope things change

 

The thing is you just can't really tell. yes you could be right. Equally we could beat WH and either Spurs or WBA - just wait and see what happens rather than hypothesing and predicting results. If it were that easy then everyone would have put the bookies out of business.

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Next 3 I can see 1 point max

 

That will be at home to spurs or away to wba

 

 

West Ham with batter our defence...

So that will leave 5 games to get 10 points

 

And so something we have never looked like doing yet... Winning away

 

 

If we are as woeful I would not be surprised if a changed is made early December....... Just hope things change

 

No point continuing a discussion based on what you believe WILL happen vs what actually MIGHT happen. What if we get 3 points from those games. Should Adkins still go?

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No point continuing a discussion based on what you believe WILL happen vs what actually MIGHT happen. What if we get 3 points from those games. Should Adkins still go?

 

If we change our form over more than a 2 game period... Then of course not

 

But if we are equally as woeful come start of December, after our easiest run of the season.. Then he will be gone imo.. Like it or not

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If we change our form over more than a 2 game period... Then of course not

 

But if we are equally as woeful come start of December, after our easiest run of the season.. Then he will be gone imo.. Like it or not

 

Woeful is the description of someone who hasnt seen us play a lot and just has taken the results and made an assumption. We have only been woeful for the Arsenal game and 15mins vs Everton.

 

And your argument is based on us not taking advantage of playing the lower teams - our four points so far have come against those type of teams so pretty sure our return over the next 7 will be more than from the first.

 

If not then you certainly have to question NA. But until then see what happens ratehr than assuming.

Edited by Saint Charlie
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The thing is you just can't really tell. yes you could be right. Equally we could beat WH and either Spurs or WBA - just wait and see what happens rather than hypothesing and predicting results. If it were that easy then everyone would have put the bookies out of business.

 

Then if you don't want to speculate... Then why are you so sure we will be fine.... Nothing suggest that right now

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If we change our form over more than a 2 game period... Then of course not

 

But if we are equally as woeful come start of December, after our easiest run of the season.. Then he will be gone imo.. Like it or not

 

I've not said he wouldn't be but I don't think we have been "woeful" and believe that once we have everyone back fit and get some continuity going again, there are worst sides than us in this division. Our fully fit midfield and attack is actually very good I think.

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Woeful is the description of someone who hasnt seen us play a lot and just has taken the results and made an assumption. We have only been woeful for the Arsenal game and 15mins vs Everton.

 

I have seen every game

Man City was okay.. To be expected

Arsenal... Errr

Wigan... Errr

Man u.. Very good

Everton... Game over at HT

Villa excellent 2nd half

Fulham... Probably the worst of the lot

 

The defending in every game has been shambolic... It is more than personnel... The marking at set pieces.. The acres of space down the flanks and just allowing teams to stroll through the middle...

 

It reminds me of last time we went down.. No problem scoring but had no chance with a pathetic defence

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Then if you don't want to speculate... Then why are you so sure we will be fine.... Nothing suggest that right now

 

Im not sure we will be fine.

 

You are sure that we won't be.

 

No point saying he will be sacked if this or if that and then saying that I can't say the opposite in his defense...already you have said we have lost at WH - the game is in 10 days time!

 

Bizarrely negative attitude. We are currently 17th, and if we finish there will have done a great job. We will tighten the defence and pick up more points. (All IMO so if you disagree no problem).

Edited by Saint Charlie
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Adkins is being given 10 games I feel, you could see something isn't right it in his face on Sunday when we scored and he had a vacant look....the signs are there...maybe the required points tally is unachievable with the remaining games...who knows, but something is weighing heavy on Adkins. It was the same look when we achieved promotion last season. The TV crew cut to the manager, and he had this bewildering look in his eye, same as on Sunday....like he had delivered what he had been contracted to do and now it was all over.

 

Sadly, I think this may be close to the truth. Cortese will have set a target and failure will not be an option.

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