Adkins suicidal substitutions once again cost us!

[The Kraken]

Lallana hasn't been fantastic on the whole. Glimpses of what he can do, but he isn't doing it over 90mins - and I totally agree on his ill discipline today, completely left Fox exposed.

 

I also honestly don't feel he's captain material. I'm not getting that move.

 

Totally. Skipper should be Davis, Fonte or Lambert IMO.

[egg]

Why lallana stays on is beyond me

 

He has been so ill disciplined with keeping his shape... No wonder fox gets roasted

 

Puncheon has been miles better than lallana yet is taken off or dropped every game

 

I agree about lallana. The goals today were partly attributable to lallana. He isn't a natural winger so tends to drift infield. I thought he was marginally better than punch today (up to the point he went off). The problem is who would you have replaced him with?

[ottery st mary]

Steve Davis is my choice for skipper and a far better player than given credit for..

[S-Clarke]

Totally. Skipper should be Davis, Fonte or Lambert IMO.

 

I'm confused as to why we changed this in the summer. The easy choice would have been Fonte, a bit of continuity from the season before as he was captain on quote a few occasions. Then we have Davis, captain of Rangers and NI.

 

I love Lallana to bits, but he isn't a captain. He needs someone to look up to himself. I think we made too many changes over the summer in terms of formations etc, and the change of captain was another which was probably not needed.

 

I think we needed to stick with what we knew, and let the momentum carry us through before evolving and improving into the team they want us to be. Too much change, too soon.

[Roger]

Sorry?

 

I have an opinion, which I and others think is valid. I don't think it's rubbish.

 

You can be an odd one sometimes Roger. If anyone critises Lambert than Christ, they've had it.

 

No think you're the voice of the club sometimes sclarke. I only have a problem when someone spouts rubbish.

[Thedelldays]

I agree about lallana. The goals today were partly attributable to lallana. He isn't a natural winger so tends to drift infield. I thought he was marginally better than punch today (up to the point he went off). The problem is who would you have replaced him with?

 

I would have put Mayuka on for lallana and moved Puncheon over to the left.. I would have bought rigriguez off and put Chaplow to play off Lambert..

 

The amount of time ruiz had the ball in the middle of the park in the 2nd half was alarming

 

Or even bought Jwp for Rodriguez... Had 3 in the middle

[egg]

Nope, sorry, can't agree with that for a minuute. Puncheon wasn't underperforming, if anything (particularly first half) he had the beating of Riise and even in the second half was a decent attacking outlet, though I felt he made the wrong choice too many times and became a little predictable. That said I thought he was more productive than Lallana on the other side; he seemed to completely neglect the defensive side of his job for the last 10 or 15 minutes, leaving Fox horribly exposed at times.

 

As for "salvaging a point" we were 1-0 up when he made the subs.

 

So you think that Punch and Ricky were our best players? I agree that AL left Fox exposed but at the time Punch went off he thought he was marginally worse than AL.

 

On the last point, the subs didn't lead to us going 2-1 down. Chappers tightened up the right and Guly helped us in the middle and up front leading to us getting back into the game.

[Thedelldays]

So you think that Punch and Ricky were our best players? I agree that AL left Fox exposed but at the time Punch went off he thought he was marginally worse than AL.

 

On the last point, the subs didn't lead to us going 2-1 down. Chappers tightened up the right and Guly helped us in the middle and up front leading to us getting back into the game.

 

I disagree.... So there we go

 

If you think today was a point earned... We are relegated as we won't face a worse team all season

[The Kraken]

I'm confused as to why we changed this in the summer. The easy choice would have been Fonte, a bit of continuity from the season before as he was captain on quote a few occasions. Then we have Davis, captain of Rangers and NI.

 

I love Lallana to bits, but he isn't a captain. He needs someone to look up to himself. I think we made too many changes over the summer in terms of formations etc, and the change of captain was another which was probably not needed.

 

I think we needed to stick with what we knew, and let the momentum carry us through before evolving and improving into the team they want us to be. Too much change, too soon.

 

Yep. He's a flair player and I personally wouldn't normally put a flair player as a skipper. Today it looked like he needed a proper bollocking in the last 10 - 15 minutes to get in and hold his shape, and give Fox some cover. Yet there he was just jogging back, almost doing his own thing. I'm led to woder if, now that's skipper, his team-mates are a bit more disinclined to give him a verbal rocket when he's not doing his job.

[The Kraken]

So you think that Punch and Ricky were our best players? I agree that AL left Fox exposed but at the time Punch went off he thought he was marginally worse than AL.

 

On the last point, the subs didn't lead to us going 2-1 down. Chappers tightened up the right and Guly helped us in the middle and up front leading to us getting back into the game.

 

Sorry, from what did you infer that I thought Puncheon and Lambert were our best players?

[Roger]

Kp turner go back to painting will you. Funny how the vast majority agree with me! S Clarke sorry if I offended you but lamberts earnt the right to stay on and for me j rod wasn't a threat and should have done off. Asa Adkins said lambert wasn't playing in his best position so should have been moved upfront.

[egg]

I would have put Mayuka on for lallana and moved Puncheon over to the left.. I would have bought rigriguez off and put Chaplow to play off Lambert..

 

The amount of time ruiz had the ball in the middle of the park in the 2nd half was alarming

 

Or even bought Jwp for Rodriguez... Had 3 in the middle

 

Mayuka on the right would have been a square peg in a round hole and left Yoshida horribly exposed. He needed protection more than we needed ab attacking outlet down that side. The tactic of shoring up that side was a given imo.

[Thedelldays]

Mayuka on the right would have been a square peg in a round hole and left Yoshida horribly exposed. He needed protection more than we needed ab attacking outlet down that side. The tactic of shoring up that side was a given imo.

 

Would it... I disagree.... We can go all night but let's not..

 

Every time Mayuka has come on it has been for Puncheon on the right.. So guessing he is a right sided forward

[CanadaSaint]

Lallana hasn't been fantastic on the whole. Glimpses of what he can do, but he isn't doing it over 90mins - and I totally agree on his ill discipline today, completely left Fox exposed.

 

I also honestly don't feel he's captain material. I'm not getting that move.

 

In his younger days he fell victim to the "fart in a thunderstorm" syndrome, being all over the place because he had always been good enough to do it.

 

Now he's up with the big boys it's becoming a more glaring weakness on the days when it ends up being unproductive.

 

I have a lot of faith that he'll learn but giving him the captaincy hardly suggests that the coaching team recognizes that he can be quite an immature player at times.

[egg]

Sorry, from what did you infer that I thought Puncheon and Lambert were our best players?

 

You said that you couldn't agree with a post in which I took issue with someone saying that we took off our best players.

[Chez]

why do we keep taking Puncheon off? He was our best player against United and he was right up there today as well. We haven't improved in any way after both substitutions. Add to that we dropped him completely at Everton. Adkins certainly knows how to keep the two muppets behind me happy. They moaned at him all game, then moaned at Guly too. Talk about judging a player based on past performances.

 

Lambert wasn't having a great game and did very little in the second half, but defensively we are weak at set pieces whenever he goes off.

 

I thought Fox had a pretty good game today. Got tight to Duff and tracked his runs well. Got the wrong side of him a couple of times, but he was only done when faced with a 2 on 1. A few stray passes, but overall I thought he did OK. A million miles better than the Villa game. Fair play to him.

[The Kraken]

Mayuka on the right would have been a square peg in a round hole and left Yoshida horribly exposed. He needed protection more than we needed ab attacking outlet down that side. The tactic of shoring up that side was a given imo.

 

As opposed to Chaplow. who, lets face it, is not a traditional wide midfielder?

 

I agree with TDD, Mayuka was the option on the right IMO. If nothing else it would have pushed Riise right back and not encouraged Fulham to attack us down that side. It also would have retained an attacking outlet for us; that option dried up completely with Chaplow. I'd even have preferred Guly to Chaplow on that side; we're at home so making such a defensive move was unnecessary, I don't subscribe to the notion that we were under the cosh because of Puncheon at all.

[egg]

Would it... I disagree.... We can go all night but let's not..

 

Every time Mayuka has come on it has been for Puncheon on the right.. So guessing he is a right sided forward

 

Yep, he's a forward. We needed a right sided midfielder with the discipline to hold his position. Yoshida, on a yellow, with Riise and another running at him = goals and/or a red card.

[The Kraken]

You said that you couldn't agree with a post in which I took issue with someone saying that we took off our best players.

 

No I didn't, I responded to your post saying that Puncheon and Lambert were underperforming, disagreeing particularly in the case of Puncheon. He wasn't our best player but I thought he did decent enough to merit staying on the pitch.

[Dig Dig]

Nope, sorry, can't agree with that for a minuute. Puncheon wasn't underperforming, if anything (particularly first half) he had the beating of Riise and even in the second half was a decent attacking outlet, though I felt he made the wrong choice too many times and became a little predictable. That said I thought he was more productive than Lallana on the other side; he seemed to completely neglect the defensive side of his job for the last 10 or 15 minutes, leaving Fox horribly exposed at times.

 

As for "salvaging a point" we were 1-0 up when he made the subs.

 

Sorry but Puncheon didnt have the beating of Riise at all. Never took him on on the outside and kept losing the ball after keeping hold of it for too long. I thought he was poor second half and deserved to be subbed.

 

My only complaint was taking off Lambert, Rodriguez should have made way for Guly instead IMO.

[Chez]

As opposed to Chaplow. who, lets face it, is not a traditional wide midfielder?

 

I agree with TDD, Mayuka was the option on the right IMO.

Can't agree with this at all. Chaplow has played wide midfield for us for two seasons. Mayuka is a centre forward who has played a few minutes on the right side of an attacking 3. I don't want to see him or any other striker playing wide as part of a 4-4-2.

[The Kraken]

Sorry but Puncheon didnt have the beating of Riise at all. Never took him on on the outside and kept losing the ball after keeping hold of it for too long. I thought he was poor second half and deserved to be subbed.

 

My only complaint was taking off Lambert, Rodriguez should have made way for Guly instead IMO.

 

First half he did. Second half i've already said that he was too predictable at times, but nonetheless he was a very good attacking option for us. If he was to go off then, as I've also said, it needed to be for Mayuka or even Guly; Chaplow was too defensive a sub.

 

Completely agree with you about Lambert though.

[egg]

As opposed to Chaplow. who, lets face it, is not a traditional wide midfielder?

 

I agree with TDD, Mayuka was the option on the right IMO. If nothing else it would have pushed Riise right back and not encouraged Fulham to attack us down that side. It also would have retained an attacking outlet for us; that option dried up completely with Chaplow. I'd even have preferred Guly to Chaplow on that side; we're at home so making such a defensive move was unnecessary, I don't subscribe to the notion that we were under the cosh because of Puncheon at all.

 

Mayuka drifts into the inside right position. How would that have offered protection to Yoshida?

 

I have no doubt that we would be screaming at NA for tactical suicide ir he put Mayuka out there today. Damned if you do or don't!

 

Chappers has played many, many times for us out wide in a Marsden esque role.

[The Kraken]

Can't agree with this at all. Chaplow has played wide midfield for us for two seasons. Mayuka is a centre forward who has played a few minutes on the right side of an attacking 3. I don't want to see him or any other striker playing wide as part of a 4-4-2.

 

I do accept that, but I think at the moment we don't have too many other options than that. My opinion is, I concede, perhaps hindered by only having seen Mayuka in action in glimpses, but from what I have seen I genuinely think he can do a job there and would have been a decent introduction today.

[The Kraken]

Mayuka drifts into the inside right position. How would that have offered protection to Yoshida?

 

I have no doubt that we would be screaming at NA for tactical suicide ir he put Mayuka out there today. Damned if you do or don't!

 

Chappers has played many, many times for us out wide in a Marsden esque role.

 

Well I guess we'll never know so its all conjecture.

 

As for the Marsden analogy; agreed. But Marsden worked so well for us because he had Bridge in tandem with him, almost playing as a wing back. So Marsden needed to have a more defensive side to his game. I don't think Yoshida overlapped once the whole game, so it was a massively defensive left side which didn't get at Riise and invited them upon us.

[Turkish]

Mayuka drifts into the inside right position. How would that have offered protection to Yoshida?

 

I have no doubt that we would be screaming at NA for tactical suicide ir he put Mayuka out there today. Damned if you do or don't!

 

Chappers has played many, many times for us out wide in a Marsden esque role.

 

And it works when you have a full back that overlaps, today we didn't. You could see the idea was to shore up the right flank as they were targeting it with Yoshida being out of position but we had no attacking threat down the right when JP went off.

[egg]

No I didn't, I responded to your post saying that Puncheon and Lambert were underperforming, disagreeing particularly in the case of Puncheon. He wasn't our best player but I thought he did decent enough to merit staying on the pitch.

 

Er, my post was in reply to one that started with a moan about taking off our best players! I said that they weren't our best players You said you didn't agree with me.

[Gaz@Maybush]

All things good were going through puncheon, taking him off on 60 mins why?

 

He was out best player up till then!

 

Surprising substitution.

Taking Lambert off made sense as he was clearly not having a good day. Replacing him with Guly, who is worse than poor didn't make sense. Taking Puncheon off was bloody stupid/naive as he was the only option going forward.

 

I like Adkins and fair play for all he's done but unfortunately he's out of his league now. The king is dead, long live the next king

[The Kraken]

Er, my post was in reply to one that started with a moan about taking off our best players! I said that they weren't our best players You said you didn't agree with me.

 

You said they underperformed. I don't think Puncheon underperformed. I also thought Lambert underperformed less than Rodriguez did and should have stayed on.

[egg]

Well I guess we'll never know so its all conjecture.

 

As for the Marsden analogy; agreed. But Marsden worked so well for us because he had Bridge in tandem with him, almost playing as a wing back. So Marsden needed to have a more defensive side to his game. I don't think Yoshida overlapped once the whole game, so it was a massively defensive left side which didn't get at Riise and invited them upon us.

 

It's not conjecture though. Mayuka is a striker and Yoshida was having a mare. He needed a minder, not Mayuka.

[The Kraken]

It's not conjecture though. Mayuka is a striker and Yoshida was having a mare. He needed a minder, not Mayuka.

 

That's entirely your opinion, not a fact at all. Therefore it is conjecture. As is my opinion of it all.

[egg]

You said they underperformed. I don't think Puncheon underperformed. I also thought Lambert underperformed less than Rodriguez did and should have stayed on.

 

Different opinions etc.

[kpturner]

Funny how the vast majority agree with me!

:lol: Talk about head in the sand. I would say that its possibly 50-50 at best. Is that "the vast majority"?

[egg]

That's entirely your opinion, not a fact at all. Therefore it is conjecture. As is my opinion of it all.

 

So Mayuka isn't a striker? Yoshida didn't need cover?

[Chez]

Sorry but Puncheon didnt have the beating of Riise at all. Never took him on on the outside and kept losing the ball after keeping hold of it for too long. I thought he was poor second half and deserved to be subbed.

 

he is not quick and he is left footed. Why does everyone expect him to go past fullbacks on the outside?

 

Every now and then he goes outside to keep the fullback honest and he did that today, but he's going to come inside more often than not and when he does he'd looking for movement in front of him and in the second half (one great Morgan run apart that he should have picked out) there wasn't a great deal going on so he eventually ran into trouble.

 

He got caught in possession down the middle once, when a little slow to release, but at least he was making things happen and offering a threat. Having someone dribble and take pressure off the back four is vital and he does that well. Once he went off we hardly kept the ball at all and we ended up dropping deep and under the cosh. In contrast Chaplow doesn't dribble and relies on people finding him on the move. We didn't have enough ball to take advantage of that and our right side just disappeared as any sort of threat, long angled balls from Yoshida apart.

[The Kraken]

he is not quick and he is left footed. Why does everyone expect him to go past fullbacks on the outside?

 

Every now and then he goes outside to keep the fullback honest and he did that today, but he's going to come inside more often than not and when he does he'd looking for movement in front of him and in the second half (one great Morgan run apart that he should have picked out) there wasn't a great deal going on so he eventually ran into trouble.

 

He got caught in possession down the middle once, when a little slow to release, but at least he was making things happen and offering a threat. Having someone dribble and take pressure off the back four is vital and he does that well. Once he went off we hardly kept the ball at all and we ended up dropping deep and under the cosh. In contrast Chaplow doesn't dribble and relies on people finding him on the move. We didn't have enough ball to take advantage of that and our right side just disappeared as any sort of threat, long angled balls from Yoshida apart.

 

Good summary IMO.

[The Kraken]

So Mayuka isn't a striker? Yoshida didn't need cover?

 

Are you suggesting that Rodriguez as a striker didn't offer any defensive support when he played LM for us? Of course he did, he adapted to the role he was asked to play.

 

I think we've got to the point where we're not going to agree with each other, so perhaps best we just leave it, don't you think?

[Gaz@Maybush]

Good summary IMO.

 

This

[egg]

And it works when you have a full back that overlaps, today we didn't. You could see the idea was to shore up the right flank as they were targeting it with Yoshida being out of position but we had no attacking threat down the right when JP went off.

 

Generally I agree, play a defensive midfielder ahead of an attacking fb. Today Yoshida was struggling hence the need for protection. I agree we had no attacking threat down the right but rather that than an exposed out of position lb.

[Dig Dig]

Good summary IMO.

 

Yes, i dont disagree too much with any of that but still think they were containing him inside quite well second half as he was just going over looking for free kicks too much. I personally think he was poor and tiring second half so wasn't surprised to see him go off.

 

As some on here have seen saying that Mayuka is still carrying a knock, I guess Adkins thought we could contain rather than risk him. If anything it would have been good for him to play through the middle and replace Rodriguez as Yoshida clearly needed help in front of him.

[Badger]

Totally. Skipper should be Davis, Fonte or Lambert IMO.

 

Captain, in my view should be a midfielder, or defender who is in a position to influence things on the pitch.

 

I remember Mick Channon captaining us in 1975, but it detracted from his own game. Lawrie replaced him with a right back, Peter Rodrigues, an experienced player and natural captain, (The rest is history !)

[The Kraken]

Yes, i dont disagree too much with any of that but still think they were containing him inside quite well second half as he was just going over looking for free kicks too much. I personally think he was poor and tiring second half so wasn't surprised to see him go off.

 

As some on here have seen saying that Mayuka is still carrying a knock, I guess Adkins thought we could contain rather than risk him. If anything it would have been good for him to play through the middle and replace Rodriguez as Yoshida clearly needed help in front of him.

 

Agreed. If Mayuka wasn't going to come on at RM then he certainly should have done up front, whether for Lambert or Rodriguez (Id have said instead of JRod). And if he's too injured to even be considered a risk from the bench then, quite frankly, he shouldn't even be on the bench, its pointless having him there.

[egg]

Are you suggesting that Rodriguez as a striker didn't offer any defensive support when he played LM for us? Of course he did, he adapted to the role he was asked to play.

 

I think we've got to the point where we're not going to agree with each other, so perhaps best we just leave it, don't you think?

 

what's Jr starting games on the left, in front of a lb (in a 433 or 451) got to do with Mayuka coming on as a sub, whilst 1-0 up, in front of a struggling out of position rb in a 442? That's like comparing an apple to a sausage roll.

[beatlesaint]

the people moaning about the Lambert substitution are living on his goal record from previous games - not his contribution and performance in the 2nd half.

 

Sorry ? Am i missing the point here ? Living on his goal record ? Um, yeah, he is our top scorer in this league, as he was in the last two leagues we have been in. As has been said he is the talisman, the others look lost without him. Leave him on the ptich and if he gets his head onto the end of one of those corners at the end we win the game.

 

With your logic Le Tissier would never have saved us from relegation year after year cos he would never have been on the pitch !

 

It was an awful substitution. If he was so desperate to introduce Guly, as he often is, then Jay Rod should have come off. Better still he should have left it as it was up front.

A managerial error unfortunately. And the subs thing with NA is becoming a worry to be honest.

[The Kraken]

what's Jr starting games on the left, in front of a lb (in a 433 or 451) got to do with Mayuka coming on as a sub, whilst 1-0 up, in front of a struggling out of position rb in a 442? That's like comparing an apple to a sausage roll.

 

Yes, you're right, I'm wrong, you're the best. Time to move on.

[egg]

Sorry ? Am i missing the point here ? Living on his goal record ? Um, yeah, he is our top scorer in this league, as he was in the last two leagues we have been in. As has been said he is the talisman, the others look lost without him. Leave him on the ptich and if he gets his head onto the end of one of those corners at the end we win the game.

 

With your logic Le Tissier would never have saved us from relegation year after year cos he would never have been on the pitch !

 

It was an awful substitution. If he was so desperate to introduce Guly, as he often is, then Jay Rod should have come off. Better still he should have left it as it was up front.

A managerial error unfortunately. And the subs thing with NA is becoming a worry to be honest.

 

The point is that he didn't look like scoring this afternoon, and his work rate seemed to drop. We needed fresh legs and somebody to get on the ball a bit more.

[Thedelldays]

The point is that he didn't look like scoring this afternoon, and his work rate seemed to drop. We needed fresh legs and somebody to get on the ball a bit more.

 

Did not look like scoring... He got into good positions a few times despite play deeper..

 

Who would I want at the top of the park.. Lambert or Rodriguez... Hmmmm tough choice

[egg]

Time to move on.

 

agreed!

[up and away]

Sure he has his reasons. I have no idea what they are though. Weird decisions and severely weakened the team, no doubt about that. Happy they got a draw considering. Although that said, didn't feel Fulham would score without some help from us.

 

He explains his reasons pretty well,

 

“We started well in the first half and pressed the ball very well which has led to a good goal from Jose Fonte. We knew Fulham want to play out from the back and we have managed to get on the front foot and present ourselves with some opportunities, we just weren’t able to sustain that in the second half." “The game became far too open for us and we couldn’t get a grip of the football, started to defend far too deep and allowed them to pass the ball around.”

 

Apart from Villa, this happened in the other games. Fulham came out in the second half and started pushing us back creating too much space. Against Villa we had the attacking threat of Ramirez to counter that and press them back by our attacking threat. Today we never had that option and were just going the same way as we did against Wigan. Adkins has decided that to protect our shape and balance we defend from the front to make things difficult for the opposition. Alternatively we could defend deep and park the bus but that gives little attacking threat at home.

 

Now I could clearly see in the second half that Fulham were starting to push us back and opening up the play, with Ricky getting isolated and less effective. In making the substitutions we at least gave ourselves a chance of redressing the balance, the damage was already done. The trouble was we never had any forward causing them a great deal of problems but at least Lallana and Rodriques were showing effective movement. Today our whole forward line was not good enough and were not doing enough in the second half defensively to protect what we had. Hard decisions had to be and were made. Just add Ramirez into that equation such we get totally on top and it's a completely different story as we saw against Villa. The problem was it was starting to get like a replay of Wigan rather than Villa.

[Dig Dig]

Agreed. If Mayuka wasn't going to come on at RM then he certainly should have done up front, whether for Lambert or Rodriguez (Id have said instead of JRod). And if he's too injured to even be considered a risk from the bench then, quite frankly, he shouldn't even be on the bench, its pointless having him there.

 

I guess Adkins was willing to risk him if we were chasing the game but as we were 1-0 at the time, looked to shore us up instead.

 

The subs looked to have come 15 mins too soon if anything.