Adkins suicidal substitutions once again cost us!

[egg]

I'd have had Mayuka for Puncheon. Chaplow did ok but did nothing going forwards, Puncheon at least looked like he was capable of creating something and putting their defence on the back foot. Riise is pretty poor defensively and we could have exploited that; as it was we played into his hands.

 

Guly played very well when he came on, but I'd have taken JRod off instead. Lambert wasn't great at all but he held it up well and gave Haangeland something to think about. Against JRod, Haangeland was just an utter beast and it was totally one sided.

 

Mayuka and Yoshida as our right side? Not for me.

 

JR wasn't great but had more energy than RL so stayed on by default really. We needed height and power on the pitch for set pieces at both ends so Guly was an obvious choice over Mayuka for whichever of the strikers came off.

[Whitey Grandad]

Hope that NA doesn't fall into the same category as Sturrock. Good lower league manager but hopeless in the Premier League.

Oh please, no, please don't, don't even think it...

[JustMike]

Sorry but ********! We didn't look like scoring in the second half, Fulham upped their game at HT and you could see it coming. You could argue the subs earned us a point.

[trousers]

It wasn't the substitutions that cost is the win, it was the tactics from the start of the second half.

 

First half we pressed Fulham's defence deep in their half. Second half we sat back much more.

 

The substitutes are a red herring IMO

[Bucks Saint]

I must have been watching a different game; I thought Guly was very good when he came on.

 

But yes; I'm really starting to wonder what on earth we've got for £7M in Rodriguez, I thought he was very poor today.

 

Sorry but Jay looked good today, much more at home in his natural position. The pass he laid back for Lambert first half, which was side footed wide instead of driven home, was quality. His touch, movement and harrying were of someone very at home in that position. Lambert was the poorer today, sadly.

[The Kraken]

Mayuka and Yoshida as our right side? Not for me.

 

JR wasn't great but had more energy than RL so stayed on by default really. We needed height and power on the pitch for set pieces at both ends so Guly was an obvious choice over Mayuka for whichever of the strikers came off.

 

At one point, probably midway through the first half, one of the lads I was with asked: "who do you reckon is Saints' quickest player on the pitch right now?". It was a pretty tough question to answer! i think I went with Yoshida, but there was no stand out candidate. Our wingers, Puncheon and Lallana, rely on skill and trickery rather than outright pace, and cut in most times they attack. JRod and Lambert are similar types of player and we didn't ever really seem to have a threat of catching Fulham out with a ball over the top or into the channels, as they did with us. So no, I completely disagree that Guly was an obvious choice instead of Mayuka; especially just for set pieces as you're suggesting.

 

I didn't particularly think Rodriguez (or Lambert for that matter) needed that much energy for the way we were playing in the second half. Rickie was being used as a general target up front, neither he or Rodriguez were really working the channels and running their socks off. Even Guly for Puncheon would IMO have been a better option than Chaplow; Chappers gave us nothing at all going forwards and, with a 442 formation, that played right into Fulham's hands as they could just tell Riise to bomb on forwards.

[The Kraken]

Sorry but Jay looked good today, much more at home in his natural position. The pass he laid back for Lambert first half, which was side footed wide instead of driven home, was quality. His touch, movement and harrying were of someone very at home in that position. Lambert was the poorer today, sadly.

 

No need to apologise, its your opinion, I just disagree with it. Neither Rodriguez or Lambert played great but i thought Lambert gave us more up front in terms of hold up and bringing other players into it.

[2.3]

It was reflected in the ground as it is on the forum as soon as Lambert went off the whole ground went quite which then reflected on the pitch.

 

Puncheon substitution was probably right as he was seeing a lot of the ball but they had sussed him out showing him down the outside as they new at best it would be a leg swinging cross with no intent and they doubled up on the inside so when he turned in he had now where to go .

 

Yoshida was awful going forward clearly out of position to cover the gap left by the early substitution but he didn't attempt to cross the ball once when Puncheon used him he generally got it straight back, playing out of position can be used as an excuse but when you come in at this level for a high price tag you should be able to deliver any sort of cross.

[eelpie]

If it turns out Rickie has a knock then fair enough, but why put Guly on, surley Mayuka would have been a better bet with his pace against the two centre backs?

 

This exactly

Mayuka is an unused talent..

 

Better that he subbed JayRod who was missing opportunities to score.

 

I thought Chaplow's energy and aggresssion was ok and he contributed well to the last minute fight back.

[wild-saint]

It was reflected in the ground as it is on the forum as soon as Lambert went off the whole ground went quite which then reflected on the pitch.

 

Puncheon substitution was probably right as he was seeing a lot of the ball but they had sussed him out showing him down the outside as they new at best it would be a leg swinging cross with no intent and they doubled up on the inside so when he turned in he had now where to go .

 

Yoshida was awful going forward clearly out of position to cover the gap left by the early substitution but he didn't attempt to cross the ball once when Puncheon used him he generally got it straight back, playing out of position can be used as an excuse but when you come in at this level for a high price tag you should be able to deliver any sort of cross.

 

oh come on, yoshida is a left footed centre back playing at right back. he has no right foot other than to balance on. imo he did ok defending although offered nothing going foward and gave the ball away with his right quite often. filled in ok.

 

jay rod imo is far happeir and better in the middle amd started to get some confidence back.

 

chappers came on to double up when richardson came on and was ok. taking off sir rickie just invited fulham to kick on and wasbthe faux pas of the decade. you could see it a mile off that they would get back in the game after he went off.

[70's Mike]

while Lambert was on he pulled onto Hughes and Saints hit him rather than Jay because Hangeland was winning everything

once Lambert went off they dominated all poession and we offered no real threat frpm open play

[Hamilton Saint]

I thought replacing Lambert was a mistake; he looked most likely to be the one to score. Puncheon held on to the ball too long - attacks broken up often when he was caught in possession. Hope Ramirez gets back soon!

[2.3]

oh come on, yoshida is a left footed centre back playing at right back. he has no right foot other than to balance on. imo he did ok defending although offered nothing going foward and gave the ball away with his right quite often. filled in ok.

 

jay rod imo is far happeir and better in the middle amd started to get some confidence back.

 

chappers came on to double up when richardson came on and was ok. taking off sir rickie just invited fulham to kick on and wasbthe faux pas of the decade. you could see it a mile off that they would get back in the game after he went off.

 

So it was probably best to take puncheon off then as we had two left footers playing on the right unable to use there right feet, when you are playing at right back and you get the ball with time and space you can then use your left to play an angled ball rather than sending it back where it came from

[Saint Martini]

Was he really that much off match fitness that he couldn't have managed 25 minutes? Because, if so, he really shouldn't be on the bench.

 

Chaplow for Puncheon played right into Fulham's hands. Riise looked ok going forwards and poor in defence; when Puncheon attacked it looked like he'd get something every time. Putting Chaplow on completely stopped that supply line and massively curtailed our attacking options.

 

When I saw Puncheon going off I was convinced it was for Mayuka, I was very surprised to see Chaplow coming on. I'd have put on Mayuka for pretty much the same reasons you gave, especially since we had Maya playing rightback and he's doesn't overlap the right midfielder like Richardson/Clyne.

 

The reason for choosing Chaplow must have been wanting to add a bit off bite to the midfield. Not a bad thought, but afterwards we can establish that this wasn't a great change.

 

Taking of Lambert was the right move in my opinion, he didn't have a great match and Guly made a positive impact after he came on. In the end we lost due to two attacks down our left where Lallana doesn't do a good enough job tracking his man (he drifts inside too much). That's not the defense to being good enough, that's the defense not getting enough protection.

[S-Clarke]

I thought replacing Lambert was a mistake; he looked most likely to be the one to score. Puncheon held on to the ball too long - attacks broken up often when he was caught in possession. Hope Ramirez gets back soon!

 

Did he though? When did he have a clear cut chance in the 2nd half exactly? The reality is we needed to freshen it up a bit up top. Jay Rodriguez gave us mobility and pace in behind, so it would have been foolish to replace him.

 

Guly came on and did exactly what he was supposed to do and gave us a little bit extra in the closing stage of the game.

 

As I've seen others say, the people moaning about the Lambert substitution are living on his goal record from previous games - not his contribution and performance in the 2nd half.

[Bucks Saint]

I thought Lambert was surprisingly lacklustre when challenging for headers today. IMO in he often seemed hardly to jump, whoever he was up against. No idea why but stood out for me, given his normal dominance in the air. And I don't just mean Hangeland beat him, Lambert failed to compete properly?

[The Kraken]

Did he though? When did he have a clear cut chance in the 2nd half exactly? The reality is we needed to freshen it up a bit up top. Jay Rodriguez gave us mobility and pace in behind, so it would have been foolish to replace him.

 

Guly came on and did exactly what he was supposed to do and gave us a little bit extra in the closing stage of the game.

 

As I've seen others say, the people moaning about the Lambert substitution are living on his goal record from previous games - not his contribution and performance in the 2nd half.

I genuinely must have been watching an entirely different game to you. In the second half especially I simply cannot recall when Rodriguez got in behind their defence.

 

As for it being "foolish" to take him off, I couldn't disagree more.

[Nolan]

Lambert had 4 or 5 chances that any other day he would have slotted into the back of the net. He didn't. This game would have pulled his shots to goals ratio right down and it was absolutely right that Guly was brought on to try and convert any further possible chances.

[the saint in winchester]

If it turns out Rickie has a knock then fair enough, but why put Guly on, surley Mayuka would have been a better bet with his pace against the two centre backs?

 

and so said all of us! Baffling to take Rickie off, and even more so to put Guly on ..... unless Adkins was trying to win the midfield, and hang on to 1-nil. That's all I could think. Mayuka would have been a good out-ball.

[S-Clarke]

I genuinely must have been watching an entirely different game to you. In the second half especially I simply cannot recall when Rodriguez got in behind their defence.

 

As for it being "foolish" to take him off, I couldn't disagree more.

 

That's what it's all about though, everyone see's things slightly differently. Football would be a boring debate otherwise.

 

I don't think he did get behind in the 2nd half, but what I was getting at is that he was more likely to than Lambert for example. He just had a bit more mobility about him, which I think was important to retain.

[Stepgar]

No player has the Devine right to stay on the pitch regardless of who they are. We have seen soooooo many top top players get subbed at various points in time, not just from a Saints side. Sometimes you get subbed if you're not playing well or it's just nt working. I really can't get over all the bed wetting talk. It's crazy. NA and his team know more about football than ANY of us. Lets not get too hasty "together as one"

[Roger]

Adkins saying he should have taken lambert off earlier. Wtf? Starting to think Adkins isn't right manager. If Ramirez is out for ages we are doomed.

[Barry the Badger]

Mayuka would have been a good out-ball.

 

What, like he was against Utd when Adkins got crucified for bringing him on?

[The Kraken]

That's what it's all about though, everyone see's things slightly differently. Football would be a boring debate otherwise.

 

I don't think he did get behind in the 2nd half, but what I was getting at is that he was more likely to than Lambert for example. He just had a bit more mobility about him, which I think was important to retain.

 

Personally I think a good move (given that Chaplow had already replaced Puncheon) would have been to put Mayuka on. That would genuinely have given us some pace and options in behind, whether with Rodriguez or Lambert. Both our goals were from set pieces, in the second half especially we didn't force their keeper into anything of real note and didn't create a great deal.

[Roger]

That's what it's all about though, everyone see's things slightly differently. Football would be a boring debate otherwise.

 

I don't think he did get behind in the 2nd half, but what I was getting at is that he was more likely to than Lambert for example. He just had a bit more mobility about him, which I think was important to retain.

 

What a load of rubbish. Jrod was powderpuff. Lambert was in a different position and is much more of a goal threat. We are in trouble without Ramirez.

[jasoneuelllfanclub]

Guly was more involved than RL had been in the 2nd half and solidified the middle whilst offering something going forward.

 

People moaning about RL going off are judging him on his goalscoring ability rather than his 2nd half performance. The team benefited from Guly being on the pitch.

 

I can't believe anyone honestly believes that Puncheon should have stayed on. He left Yoshida exposed and offered no threat going forward. Chappers tightened up the right side.

 

Does anyone really feel that Chappers for Punch hindered the team?

 

Was RL really more effective 2nd half than Guly was?

 

None of the moaners have said what subs they feel should have been made.

 

I'm as frustrated as anyone that we didn't win but I don't think that was down to NA.

 

It was clear as day we struggled once Lambert went off. He is the one player that makes us tick regardless of his own personal performance. We lost all attacking threat after gilt come on. Thankfully our set pieces were still good

[kpturner]

What a load of rubbish. Jrod was powderpuff.

Now that, Roger, is "a load of rubbish"

[Roger]

Did he though? When did he have a clear cut chance in the 2nd half exactly? The reality is we needed to freshen it up a bit up top. Jay Rodriguez gave us mobility and pace in behind, so it would have been foolish to replace him.

 

Guly came on and did exactly what he was supposed to do and gave us a little bit extra in the closing stage of the game.

 

As I've seen others say, the people moaning about the Lambert substitution are living on his goal record from previous games - not his contribution and performance in the 2nd half.

 

I actually feel for alpine when I read some of rubbish you write.

[Roger]

Now that, Roger, is "a load of rubbish"

 

How the hell is it? Did you see his header? I think he will be a good player but leave him on rather than

Lambert was absolutely stupid.

[S-Clarke]

I actually feel for alpine when I read some of rubbish you write.

 

Sorry?

 

I have an opinion, which I and others think is valid. I don't think it's rubbish.

 

You can be an odd one sometimes Roger. If anyone critises Lambert than Christ, they've had it.

[LeBenali]

For me it was more the fact that he took off Lambert & therefore made all 3 subs with a quarter of the game to go. Obviously the first and likely the 2nd sub were forced upon him, and Guly didn't do anything wrong when he came on, but if anything went wrong (which it did nearly straight away when we conceded) then it's a hell of a long time to go without being able to make any further changes.

[The Kraken]

Now that, Roger, is "a load of rubbish"

 

Not really, compared to Lambert he was. Against Hangelande, Rodriguez got utterly bullied. Lambert gave Hangelande something to think about, won his share of headers and generally held the ball up much better than Rodriguez could.

[supersonic]

Why AGAIN he decided to take off the best players is beyond me. Rodriguez was knackered 5-10minutes before the sub, and had, again, done not a lot in the match. (but Rodriguez is a different point)

 

The fact that we STILL look unorganised at the back is another worrying sign.

 

Tactics have always been Adkins' weak points, and they are getting shown up time and time again in this league. 11 points dropped from winning positions so far this season. If we had held on in the game today (we were pretty comfortable before the subs, and v man utd) we'd be 11th.

[Saint Fan CaM]

I think the subs silenced SMS today for a while - I believe many were wondering (like me) how long it the defence would hold on to a fragile 1-0 lead or 1-1 draw after substitutions that quite clearly suggested we were not going to try to win the game. Completely played into Fulhams hands IMO and that's the responsibility of just one man - step forward NA. I don't think he's going to last in the job if he keeps making poor subsitution decisions like he has been. His post-match interview was quite different and muted - I think he knows it too.

[kpturner]

If we had held on in the game today (we were pretty comfortable before the subs, and v man utd)

What nonsense. We were definitely not comfortable before the substitution of Puncheon. We were on the back foot for most of the half and coming under increasing pressure. Replacing Puncheon with Chaplow helped sure us up a little bit down our right side because he provided a bit more cover for Yoshida. The Lambert/Guly sub was a bit more worrying, but as it turned out Guly was just as effective has Lambert when he came on, probably more so. The substitutions did not weaken us IMHO, nor did they directly contribute to goals we conceded.

[kpturner]

How the hell is it? Did you see his header? I think he will be a good player but leave him on rather than

Lambert was absolutely stupid.

Did I see what header? What on earth are you babbling about? I am afraid I have for some time been coming to realise that you are a bit of a simpleton mate. Sorry to be so blunt.

Edited 7 October, 2012 by kpturner

[kpturner]

Not really, compared to Lambert he was. Against Hangelande, Rodriguez got utterly bullied. Lambert gave Hangelande something to think about, won his share of headers and generally held the ball up much better than Rodriguez could.

I think you have made it clear several times what you think of Rodriguez' display today. There are plenty who disagree - me included. We will just have to leave it at that.

[Whitey Grandad]

Did I see what header? What on earth are you babbling about? I am afraid I have for some time coming to realise that you are a bit of a simpleton mate. Sorry to be so blunt.

 

The one that went into the ground about 5 yards from goal and bounced over the bar and into the Chapel.

[Hamilton Saint]

Did he though? When did he have a clear cut chance in the 2nd half exactly? The reality is we needed to freshen it up a bit up top. Jay Rodriguez gave us mobility and pace in behind, so it would have been foolish to replace him.

 

Guly came on and did exactly what he was supposed to do and gave us a little bit extra in the closing stage of the game.

 

As I've seen others say, the people moaning about the Lambert substitution are living on his goal record from previous games - not his contribution and performance in the 2nd half.

 

 

I'm not moaning - just giving my opinion! Guly may have given us "a little bit extra", in your opinion, but no goals. So how is that essentially a major improvement on Lambert, who came much closer to scoring than Guly did?

[The Kraken]

I think you have made it clear several times what you think of Rodriguez' display today. There are plenty who disagree - me included. We will just have to leave it at that.

 

Indeed. That said, I don't think you accusing people of talking rubbish and nonsense does you too many favours.

[egg]

Why AGAIN he decided to take off the best players is beyond me. Rodriguez was knackered 5-10minutes before the sub, and had, again, done not a lot in the match. (but Rodriguez is a different point)

 

The fact that we STILL look unorganised at the back is another worrying sign.

 

Tactics have always been Adkins' weak points, and they are getting shown up time and time again in this league. 11 points dropped from winning positions so far this season. If we had held on in the game today (we were pretty comfortable before the subs, and v man utd) we'd be 11th.

 

But Punch and Ricky weren't our best players. Morgan, Fonte, Gazza, Davis were. He took off two underperforming players, one of who was tiring. He bought on two players who helped the team more than the players they replaced and ultimately those players helped salvage a point.

[Thedelldays]

If you think we salvaged a point... We are as good as down..

 

We won't face such a poor performance again this season and such a weak attack

[The Kraken]

But Punch and Ricky weren't our best players. Morgan, Fonte, Gazza, Davis were. He took off two underperforming players, one of who was tiring. He bought on two players who helped the team more than the players they replaced and ultimately those players helped salvage a point.

 

Nope, sorry, can't agree with that for a minuute. Puncheon wasn't underperforming, if anything (particularly first half) he had the beating of Riise and even in the second half was a decent attacking outlet, though I felt he made the wrong choice too many times and became a little predictable. That said I thought he was more productive than Lallana on the other side; he seemed to completely neglect the defensive side of his job for the last 10 or 15 minutes, leaving Fox horribly exposed at times.

 

As for "salvaging a point" we were 1-0 up when he made the subs.

[kpturner]

Indeed. That said, I don't think you accusing people of talking rubbish and nonsense does you too many favours.

Nonsense

[NickG]

It was clear as day we struggled once Lambert went off. He is the one player that makes us tick regardless of his own personal performance. We lost all attacking threat after gilt come on. Thankfully our set pieces were still good

 

Disagree.

 

We were struggling before Lambert went off. We were pegged back with little possession, looked like Fulham would score and we needed to change.

 

Chaplow / Guly were to change shape and bolster midfield options.

 

Don't think substitutions were why we conceded - think we would have done anyway - possibly done worse.

 

Only issues I would personally see as more up for debate J Rod or Lambert, Lallana or Puncheon.

 

Hard call, even sat under no pressure here not sure NA got it wrong.

 

 

If he was fit Jack Cork would have come on for Puncheon, - reckon could have been very different.

 

 

So much more to being a manager than picking favorite players, you need to look deeper at shape of game.

[egg]

I'm not moaning - just giving my opinion! Guly may have given us "a little bit extra", in your opinion, but no goals. So how is that essentially a major improvement on Lambert, who came much closer to scoring than Guly did?

 

So players only contribute if they score? How about being available to receive the ball? Keeping the ball? Running at defenders, earning free kicks, adding energy and something different? Would you be moaning about RL going off if Gulys 20 yarder snuck in the corner?

[ottery st mary]

A fan of Lallana but should have come off with J Rod..

 

Puncheon and Lambert should have remained on..

 

COYS

[egg]

Disagree.

 

We were struggling before Lambert went off. We were pegged back with little possession, looked like Fulham would score and we needed to change.

 

Chaplow / Guly were to change shape and bolster midfield options.

 

Don't think substitutions were why we conceded - think we would have done anyway - possibly done worse.

 

Only issues I would personally see as more up for debate J Rod or Lambert, Lallana or Puncheon.

 

Hard call, even sat under no pressure here not sure NA got it wrong.

 

 

If he was fit Jack Cork would have come on for Puncheon, - reckon could have been very different.

 

 

So much more to being a manager than picking favorite players, you need to look deeper at shape of game.

 

The voice of reason

[Thedelldays]

Why lallana stays on is beyond me

 

He has been so ill disciplined with keeping his shape... No wonder fox gets roasted

 

Puncheon has been miles better than lallana yet is taken off or dropped every game

[S-Clarke]

Why lallana stays on is beyond me

 

He has been so ill disciplined with keeping his shape... No wonder fox gets roasted

 

Puncheon has been miles better than lallana yet is taken off or dropped every game

 

Lallana hasn't been fantastic on the whole. Glimpses of what he can do, but he isn't doing it over 90mins - and I totally agree on his ill discipline today, completely left Fox exposed.

 

I also honestly don't feel he's captain material. I'm not getting that move.