Hatch Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Can it ever be justified? When you really really need to know something. Like, Where this little girl is. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-19828904 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleoldladysaint Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 When I was a kid and somethibg like this happened my Mum used to say "Let him out and let the women have him. They'll loosen his tongue!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Tone Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Tough one isn't it? If they are sure he did it and sure he knows where the poor kid is, and it's not just that he has some sort of record so is an obvious first choice suspect , with no other proof. Seems very odd that they've released this bloke's name and picture so ealry in the process. If he turns out to be innocent, like that weird landlord bloke in the Clifton/Bristol murder case, his life will have been ruined anyway. I'm not saying the family are to blame, please note. No family should have to plan their lives around preventing a possible abduction. It's the bastard who has abducted the child that is to solely and wholly to blame .. and for whom I would break my usual principles and bring back the death penalty if guilt is beyond doubt... but I do wonder why this 5 year old child, with cerebral palsy what is more, was playing on her bike some 250 m from her house, out of sight of the family, after sunset, with no adult supervision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimond Geezer Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Can it ever be justified? When you really really need to know something. Like, Where this little girl is. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-19828904 If he's innocent though & genuinely doesn't know here wear-abouts, will he just give any answer the police want, to stop the torture, thus sending them on a time wasting wildgoose chase? I'm not saying the family are to blame, please note. No family should have to plan their lives around preventing a possible abduction. It's the bastard who has abducted the child that is to solely and wholly to blame .. and for whom I would break my usual principles and bring back the death penalty if guilt is beyond doubt... but I do wonder why this 5 year old child, with cerebral palsy what is more, was playing on her bike some 250 m from her house, out of sight of the family, after sunset, with no adult supervision. I agree, and as you said, the family are not to blame, you should be able to let your kids play unsupervised, but parents have to face reality, we do not live in Utopia & this sort of thing will happen from time to time. Our 11 (nearly 12) year old has to be in before dark. Paranoid, possibly, but hopefully sensible as well. Unfortunately, I cannot see this ending well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Tough one isn't it? If they are sure he did it and sure he knows where the poor kid is, and it's not just that he has some sort of record so is an obvious first choice suspect , with no other proof. Seems very odd that they've released this bloke's name and picture so ealry in the process. If he turns out to be innocent, like that weird landlord bloke in the Clifton/Bristol murder case, his life will have been ruined anyway. I'm not saying the family are to blame, please note. No family should have to plan their lives around preventing a possible abduction. It's the bastard who has abducted the child that is to solely and wholly to blame .. and for whom I would break my usual principles and bring back the death penalty if guilt is beyond doubt... but I do wonder why this 5 year old child, with cerebral palsy what is more, was playing on her bike some 250 m from her house, out of sight of the family, after sunset, with no adult supervision. I have to agree with that bit. I have no way of knowing what the police do and don't know but always think peoples identities should be kept out of the press when ever possible (I'm sure there might be occasional good reasons to realese this info) until a verdict has been reached in a court of law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Torture sure does get answers. Whether they are the right answers is another matter entirely... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bad Bob Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Can it ever be justified? When you really really need to know something. Like, Where this little girl is. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-19828904 Sodium Pentothal should do the trick without resorting to water-boarding or public stoning. Me, I'm all for summary execution, like that bloke who killed the policewomen in Manchester, .303 round, ~£1 compared to the cost of a court case, keeping him in prison, new identity etc. etc. Raoul Moat even saved us taxpayers the £1 for the round by doing it himself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badgerx16 Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Can it ever be justified? If not, what is the point of ITV2 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suomi Saint Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Lock him in a room and show him a DVD of Portsmouth FC's glorious history - better than water boarding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Tough one isn't it? If they are sure he did it and sure he knows where the poor kid is, and it's not just that he has some sort of record so is an obvious first choice suspect , with no other proof. Seems very odd that they've released this bloke's name and picture so ealry in the process. If he turns out to be innocent, like that weird landlord bloke in the Clifton/Bristol murder case, his life will have been ruined anyway. I'm not saying the family are to blame, please note. No family should have to plan their lives around preventing a possible abduction. It's the bastard who has abducted the child that is to solely and wholly to blame .. and for whom I would break my usual principles and bring back the death penalty if guilt is beyond doubt... but I do wonder why this 5 year old child, with cerebral palsy what is more, was playing on her bike some 250 m from her house, out of sight of the family, after sunset, with no adult supervision. I worry that the police may have just gone and arrested the local oddball as they always seem to do. They appealed for a a white or a grey van and this chap has a blue Landrover discovery - if there were witnesses then surely they could see the difference. I think the playing outside bit and the response from the local community just shows that there are parts of the country where people do still feel safe howver misguided that turned out to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Torture sure does get answers. Whether they are the right answers is another matter entirely... I heard a piece about this on the radio the other day suggesting that after a while the suspect will say anything they think the interrogators want to hear, hence the WMD in Iraq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bad Bob Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 I heard a piece about this on the radio the other day suggesting that after a while the suspect will say anything they think the interrogators want to hear, hence the WMD in Iraq. But that wasn't got through torture, there was clear documentary evidence pointing to their existence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 But that wasn't got through torture, there was clear documentary evidence pointing to their existence... Must....resist.....temp.....tation.........to respond......aaaarrggghhhh....I....can't.....hold......out.....any....longer false documentary evidence given that no WMDs were found. and there was plenty of evidence suggesting they didn't exist. Anyway back to OP. Torture is a remarkably unreliable tool. Hollywood always shows the 'ticking time-bomb' typre scenarios where the hero saves the day by torturing the baddie getting the info and saving the world. Life rarely works out like that. And what if the subject turns out to be innocent? How far into the torture do you stop before you realise he's innocent? Will you find out or just get some made up crap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bad Bob Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Must....resist.....temp.....tation.........to respond......aaaarrggghhhh....I....can't.....hold......out.....any....longer false documentary evidence given that no WMDs were found. and there was plenty of evidence suggesting they didn't exist. Anyway back to OP. Torture is a remarkably unreliable tool. Hollywood always shows the 'ticking time-bomb' typre scenarios where the hero saves the day by torturing the baddie getting the info and saving the world. Life rarely works out like that. And what if the subject turns out to be innocent? How far into the torture do you stop before you realise he's innocent? Will you find out or just get some made up crap? Oh sorry, did I forget the winky, smiley thing?? I agree that torture is unreliable as the subject will generally say what he wants you to hear. Has Sodium Pentathol been proved to be unreliable?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 5 October, 2012 Share Posted 5 October, 2012 Oh sorry, did I forget the winky, smiley thing?? I agree that torture is unreliable as the subject will generally say what he wants you to hear. Has Sodium Pentathol been proved to be unreliable?? No idea if unrelieable but it can be lethal... My twopenneth... Police have aways said that whenever a child goes missing in these circumstances, its usually the first 24 hours that are critical...after than and the hope of finding a child live dramatically decline... which which unblieveably worriying and sad. They do seem to release names in such cases, possibly as it may help jog folks memory if they know that person, as to when and wher they last saw them, rather than just a description... so can understand why, but given they said initially she got into a grey van... and then arrest a guy who has a blue landrover, not sure what to make of that... Torture - impossibily difficult as if they 100% know it was him, yoiu could make an argument for it, but as others have said , can be completely unreliable Death Penalty - As much as child abduction and murder seems to have a greater emotional repsonse from the general public (understandably so), not sure we can or should decide on punishments based on who the victim is... we in effect say one person or life is worth more than someone elses whether they be a child, a police women or just an ordinary bloke/women, surely all life is equally important? - I am not for it anyway, as a deterent it clearly does not work... there is no difference in murder rate in US states that have it v those that dont etc... so you have to ask yourself if it's right a civilised society with a legal system that is fair yet can always make mistakes, has this right. Might be a bit of an odd quote, but think Tolkien got it about right in LOTR ''many that live deserve death, just as many that are dead deserved life...but can you give it to them?'' NO doubt as with all these cases, there will be a public outcry for it - but death penalties are based on revenge rather than justice IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimond Geezer Posted 5 October, 2012 Share Posted 5 October, 2012 The police are treating it as a murder case now: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-19843337 Very very sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 5 October, 2012 Share Posted 5 October, 2012 Poor kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjsaint Posted 5 October, 2012 Share Posted 5 October, 2012 I think you can be in favour of torture as a means of interrogation and still justify the moral high ground. I am not sure you can justify moral outrage at the idea of torture if you know that lives will be lost so that you can retain your ploitically correct smugness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bad Bob Posted 5 October, 2012 Share Posted 5 October, 2012 Have any of you seen the film Unthinkable, just saying...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 5 October, 2012 Share Posted 5 October, 2012 (edited) Another angle http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19843719 Mr Nyingi, 84, a father of 16, said he was arrested in 1952 and detained for about nine years. In one incident in 1959 he said he was beaten unconscious and still bears marks from leg manacles, whipping and caning. "I have brought this case because I want the world to know about the years I have lost and what was taken from a generation of Kenyans, he said Mr Nzili, 85, said he was stripped, chained and castrated shortly after being arrested in 1957. "I felt completely destroyed and without hope," he said Ms Mara, 73, said she was 15 when she was raped at a detention camp. "I want the British citizens of today to know what their forefathers did to me and to so many others. These crimes cannot go unpunished and forgotten," she said Edited 5 October, 2012 by doddisalegend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EastleighSoulBoy Posted 5 October, 2012 Share Posted 5 October, 2012 Kay Burley revealing what we have long thought about many journalists. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzB-QRUJ5KY&sns=fb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buctootim Posted 5 October, 2012 Share Posted 5 October, 2012 Kay Burley revealing what we have long thought about many journalists. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzB-QRUJ5KY&sns=fb Thats the third toe curlingly awful piece Ive seen from her in the past three weeks. She should be ditched asap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 5 October, 2012 Share Posted 5 October, 2012 Alan Partridge: You're in favour of hanging? Lord Morgan of Glossop: Yes, but only for criminals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 5 October, 2012 Share Posted 5 October, 2012 I think you can be in favour of torture as a means of interrogation and still justify the moral high ground. I am not sure you can justify moral outrage at the idea of torture if you know that lives will be lost so that you can retain your ploitically correct smugness. ...does anyone still believe this immature ****** exists - There is no such thing - there is what is right and what is wrong and thos who continually spot the PC card are usually doing so because they can think of no other logical argument to justify their outdated or prejudiced POV. There are bigger brains than you or I that can debate the ethics of whether 1 life is worth more than many, and only those brave folk who have sacrificed or risked their lives to save many, are really in a position to dicuss the morality or altruism of their decisions. Thankfully we still live under a rule of law that states innocent until proven guilty and whilst it would add weight to the argument to justify torture if guilt is 100% proven, your suggestion that those who feel it would be barbaric to use torture on potentially innocent people is somehow a 'PC' issue is as pathetic as it is insulting. At one time in our society, slavery was acceptable - would you consider those early pioneers who felt this was morally wrong to be 'PC'? Its how society evolves to be more civilised - 'outrage' at injustices from a minority that eventually -thorugh education - lead to a moral shift. Sadly, too many have been hoodwinked into believing PC exists by some politically motivated bull shiedt about ba ba green sheep (a story made up by the way) and other Daily Mail columnists spouting prejudiced ignornance badly disguised as journalism. These issues are not about political correctness or otherwise, but about what people believe is 'decency and integrity'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anothersaintinsouthsea Posted 5 October, 2012 Share Posted 5 October, 2012 I think you can be in favour of torture as a means of interrogation and still justify the moral high ground. I am not sure you can justify moral outrage at the idea of torture if you know that lives will be lost so that you can retain your ploitically correct smugness. I'll take a different approach to FC and just say that this is total b0ll0cks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Bad Bob Posted 5 October, 2012 Share Posted 5 October, 2012 Another angle http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19843719 Mr Nyingi, 84, a father of 16, said he was arrested in 1952 and detained for about nine years. In one incident in 1959 he said he was beaten unconscious and still bears marks from leg manacles, whipping and caning. "I have brought this case because I want the world to know about the years I have lost and what was taken from a generation of Kenyans, he said Mr Nzili, 85, said he was stripped, chained and castrated shortly after being arrested in 1957. "I felt completely destroyed and without hope," he said Ms Mara, 73, said she was 15 when she was raped at a detention camp. "I want the British citizens of today to know what their forefathers did to me and to so many others. These crimes cannot go unpunished and forgotten," she said ******, they don't need to bring a case to tell people about the injustices and crimes of the past. This is purely and solely about money, maybe not for them but for their shyster lawyers.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitey Grandad Posted 5 October, 2012 Share Posted 5 October, 2012 On capital punishment... somebody might like to look up the figures for the number of murders committed by convicted murderers who have been released from prison. This is a very difficult subject and one where I sit on the fence. If only 'life' meant 'life'... (Here's one:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1540632/Convicted-murderers-who-were-set-free-to-kill.html) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 5 October, 2012 Share Posted 5 October, 2012 On capital punishment... somebody might like to look up the figures for the number of murders committed by convicted murderers who have been released from prison. This is a very difficult subject and one where I sit on the fence. If only 'life' meant 'life'... (Here's one:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1540632/Convicted-murderers-who-were-set-free-to-kill.html) Like you say with the life means life issue, you cant really use the argument for capital punishment because they recommit murder, if the same government has let them out early in the first place - It's right that tarifs are set as punishmnet and they should be stuck to, but its also right that people DO do things in their lives that they later regret and learn from - especially when young - so there has to be some flexibilty, but for those 'ill' in the head that do these eappalling crimes against children life should mean life - its not a 'phase'... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aintforever Posted 5 October, 2012 Share Posted 5 October, 2012 I agree that torture is unreliable as the subject will generally say what he wants you to hear. It would be interesting to know if this is true and what studies have been done. From the non-fiction military books I have read I would say if you know a suspect has some information, torture will eventually get it out of them. Everyone has a limit to what they can withstand, the stuff you see in the movies where they just take it and spit in their face is nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadgerBadger Posted 5 October, 2012 Share Posted 5 October, 2012 Wronguns that commit such crimes have no chance of rehabilitation and can expect a comfy room and 3 meals a day costing us £40k per year - I see no reason why they should be kept on this planet. They should be put quietly to sleep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Warrior Posted 6 October, 2012 Share Posted 6 October, 2012 Difficult one . Some form of enhanced interrogation should be used in this case but not torture . He's probably got some liberal minded legal aid lawyer advising him to say no comment in response to every question . If he is released today then he will cost the tax payer thousands in protecting him . Watching the news I get the impression the police do not have a clue what has happened . Keeping asking for any information at every press conference . I will assume that they have cast their net far wider I case it's part of a Peado ring . The poor wee lass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey-deacons-left-nut Posted 6 October, 2012 Share Posted 6 October, 2012 Must....resist.....temp.....tation.........to respond......aaaarrggghhhh....I....can't.....hold......out.....any....longer false documentary evidence given that no WMDs were found. and there was plenty of evidence suggesting they didn't exist. Anyway back to OP. Torture is a remarkably unreliable tool. Hollywood always shows the 'ticking time-bomb' typre scenarios where the hero saves the day by torturing the baddie getting the info and saving the world. Life rarely works out like that. And what if the subject turns out to be innocent? How far into the torture do you stop before you realise he's innocent? Will you find out or just get some made up crap? Actually WMD's DID exist in Iraq.... but it looks like Sadam has actually got rid of them a few years prior to the invasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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