St_Tel49 Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 This is the issue for me. OK some on here have made reasonable arguments as to why we might have taken out this loan. Surely though if everything is a rosy as as NC has stated in the past and we do have the 5th richest owner in Christendom (or whatever), why are we bothering with loans of any type? Because of the change of rules about the independent viability of clubs irrespective of owner wealth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COMEONYOUREDS Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 as if that's very likely :rolleyes::rolleyes: given how much they've played on us being 'debt free' in the past, they should come out and explain the change in stance but granted, thats never going to happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yorkiesaint Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 THe fact that it is only secured against one years income, means the loan is less or equal to the frst year parachute payments (If it was hgher it would have been secured against the other years as well) which appears to be 16 million. Given what we have spent on transfers, additional wages (Including the current squads wage going up due to promotion clauses) training ground and Aviva (4 million due on promotion to Premier league) then that is a realtively small amount. We are a Premier league club, with Premier league expenses, but as yet without the Premiership money, which is staged payments throughout the year. Taking a step back, it is quite obvious there would have been a short fall and that some sort of funding would be required. I guess a lot of fans assummed that would come from the family, but the fact we are taking it from external sources, suggests that is no longer the case - Which I personally have no problem with. If that is taken as fact, then a lot of fans will need to reset their expectations. What I do think is a positive, is the reaction on here from the fans. Whilst some posts are moaning at the reaction, I would point you down the road, where they questioned nothing, rolled over and had their belly's rubbed and just took everything for granted- They didn't even know there was still a charge on fratton park. So I actually find it quite reassurring that so many people are questioning it and exploring the "What if's". It might not be the best analogy, but many years ago when I took a new job in London, I almost doubled my salary, but needed a loan for the train season ticket so I could get there.............. Saints are in the same position, the revenue will double. but they don't get it all at once and still have the higher costs to service in the mean time, so a loan is needed. Let's just hope I am right :) An excellent post. I think it is fairly safe to assume that when the £33m was converted into shares that marked the end of financial commitments from the liebherrs. There never has been a pot of gold, just an investment which will be profitable if they can sell their shares for more than they paid. I have always assumed that this is the endgame of the 5 year plan, but of course I might be wrong about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St_Tel49 Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Harchester United FFS. Get it right. They still qualified for the champions league and won the FA cup despite most of their team dying in plane and coach crashes, their goalkeeper going mental, their star striker nailing the chairmans wife, who then became the chairwoman, hostile takeovers and corrupt owners, they even had some corrupt bitter ex player leaking club information under the user name 'dragon slayer' on their spazboard. Yet Linda Block was a proper chairwoman, never heard Carl Fletcher moaning he wasn't welcome at the club like MLT, she respected their legends. And she's proven that her skills aren't just limited to football ownership as she's now moved to Manchester and runs a very successful underwear business. WOw - you really don't have a life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 WOw - you really don't have a life My mate from school was in it so I HAD to watch it and found it highly addictive despite it being terrible!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 My mate from school was in it so I HAD to watch it and found it highly addictive despite it being terrible!! I used to watch it religiously.......it was so bad, it was good. Didier Baptiste....carl Fletcher...just amazing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Gotsmanov Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 (edited) Gemmel that is a good assesment and I hope too that you are correct. We owe a lot to Cortese lets hope he is running the club's finances with long term and not a short term vision. What does slightly alarm me is that what we spent on transfers this season is almost the same as we spent on building the stadium. Edited 4 October, 2012 by Sergei Gotsmanov Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 I used to watch it religiously.......it was so bad, it was good. Didier Baptiste....carl Fletcher...just amazing Do you remember when Dider Bapiste was linked with a £3m to Liverpool in the NOTW?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 (edited) T What does slightly alarm me is that what we spent on transfers this season is almost the same as we spent on building the stadium. And we're still at least one CB and a decent LB short but as I've said beforehand, perhaps we just didn't have the money to pay for the required quality everywhere on the field, which makes blowing 7 million on J Rod and loaning out Sharp in the wake of it even less comprehensible. Unless of course we really did consider selling Lambert, which i doubt; Edited 4 October, 2012 by Window Cleaner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Do you remember when Dider Bapiste was linked with a £3m to Liverpool in the NOTW?! haha..and some scallies thought it was true...some of the comments about people claiming to have seen him play lol remember the waitress..who managed to bag herself a footballer......the coloured/black/non white (delete as appropriate - to appease the liberals)...didnt he die or have a career ending injury lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Do you remember when Dider Bapiste was linked with a £3m to Liverpool in the NOTW?! People sent Elsie Tanner wedding presents and turned up for Ena Sharples funeral, some have difficulty with reality and fiction it would seem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latter day saint Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 some have difficulty with reality and fiction it would seem. as shown on this forum on a daily basis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulSaint Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 What does slightly alarm me is that what we spent on transfers this season is almost the same as we spent on building the stadium. I think that's just down to the ridiculous inflation that's taken place in the game over the last decade. If we were building St Mary's from scratch in 2012, there's no way we'd be able to do it for as little as £30m. Rotherham's new stadium holds less than 15,000 but cost the thick end of £25m to build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughing now Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 People sent Elsie Tanner wedding presents and turned up for Ena Sharples funeral, some have difficulty with reality and fiction it would seem. some? I would have thought many based on this thread by the amount of speculation (fiction) has been spun from one fact (reality). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 We are a Premier league club, with Premier league expenses, but as yet without the Premiership money, which is staged payments throughout the year. Taking a step back, it is quite obvious there would have been a short fall and that some sort of funding would be required. I guess a lot of fans assummed that would come from the family, but the fact we are taking it from external sources, suggests that is no longer the case - Which I personally have no problem with. If that is taken as fact, then a lot of fans will need to reset their expectations. What I do think is a positive, is the reaction on here from the fans. Whilst some posts are moaning at the reaction, I would point you down the road, where they questioned nothing, rolled over and had their belly's rubbed and just took everything for granted- They didn't even know there was still a charge on fratton park. So I actually find it quite reassurring that so many people are questioning it and exploring the "What if's". This is a very good point. Saints fans, quite rightly, point out to Pompey that its really only now they criticise the former masters for their financial crippling. "Where were the questions when you were spending money you didn't have to win the Cup" is the often held mantra. Like I say, rightly so, they revelled in the glory and ignored the overspending until it became too huge a burden to ignore. Their bleating now at how unfair it is means nothing, as they challenged nothing when the warning signs were there for everyone to see. So it should be welcomed that Saints fans naturally want to take that on board. To ask questions when the manner in which the club is financed takes a massive u-turn. To seek answers to why a policy from the chairman of "no debt, no reliance on parachute payments" has been undone at once. If we're going to criticise Pompey fans for sucking it up and chasing the dream, then we need to be able to look inwards and ask some probing questions of our own. This loan may be inconsequential, it may be massive; but if the chairman himself is going to denigrate clubs who take out loans against future earnings, and then joins in with that merry band, then we as fans should be encouraged to search out why that may be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 haha..and some scallies thought it was true...some of the comments about people claiming to have seen him play lol remember the waitress..who managed to bag herself a footballer......the coloured/black/non white (delete as appropriate - to appease the liberals)...didnt he die or have a career ending injury lol The blonde one? She went out with Wes Kingsley but cheated on him with Carl Fletcher!! Then there was Luis 'Amor' Rodriguez who the chairman Hired a hit man to shoot after the FA Cup final, but he missed and ended up killing the right back I think!! What was the name often youth team player in one of the very first series that got an injury and had to retire do threw himself into a lake?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 as shown on this forum on a daily basis this was never so well proven as when Saints were in dire difficulty. There was a thread which covered hypothetical pledges for saving Saints from extinction (as if that was a reality,Portsmouth are still going aren't they). The sum "pledged" was astronomic, maybe as much as 8 million £ and many believed that that sum could actually be recolted to buy the club out. Any 5 year old could click on I pledge 5 million £ so the poll was entirely worthless much to the surprise of many. Now if we couild dig that thread up we could all have a laugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 this was never so well proven as when Saints were in dire difficulty. There was a thread which covered hypothetical pledges for saving Saints from extinction (as if that was a reality,Portsmouth are still going aren't they). The sum "pledged" was astronomic, maybe as much as 8 million £ and many believed that that sum could actually be recolted to buy the club out. Any 5 year old could click on I pledge 5 million £ so the poll was entirely worthless much to the surprise of many. Now if we couild dig that thread up we could all have a laugh. hah found it http://www.saintsweb.co.uk/showthread.php?11744-How-much-would-you-put-in-to-own-our-club&highlight=pledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farawaysaint Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Phoenix club AFC Southampton? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colinjb Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Phoenix club AFC Southampton? Best start planning now. I'll get on the phone to Eastleigh r.e. groundsharing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingeletiss Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 And just to remind everyone of those words; "Clubs spend money they do not have, they spend next years money, They spend money that will not arrive for two years and say "we'll have some success and bring in more cash to cover the shortfall" it cannot be sustained. I'm good times you need to save money for bad times. If we reach the premier league I would like to be in a position where we didn't need parachute payments. In good years you should put money away for bad" Nicola Cortese May 2010. Wise words. You and the Kraken, are like a bl00dy double act, NC haters, and MLG haters.....are you related? get a life, the pair of you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 You and the Kraken, are like a bl00dy double act, NC haters, and MLG haters.....are you related? get a life, the pair of you! Get a grip you betwetting moron. NC haters, good lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Cortese is a businessman, not a fan wearing red and white tinted glasses. He knows what he's doing. Were Our prevoius owners/board members/chairmen not businesmen then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doddisalegend Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Aye but the Swiss seem to have avoided the mess created by those investment bankers in the UK and US... Easy to do when you have a stash of ex nazi gold in the bank vault Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 You and the Kraken, are like a bl00dy double act, NC haters, and MLG haters.....are you related? get a life, the pair of you! Behave yourself, NC haters! I want the club to do well as much as anyone and NC has done a lot of good for us. Buti it's a perfectly valid question to ask. People love to refer to his talk of stadium expansion and the champions league, so why aren't we allowed to now talk about why we are taking out loans when he himself said clubs spend money they haven't got? Or is mentioning this only for people that hate NC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingeletiss Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Get a grip you betwetting moron. NC haters, good lord. Reverting to insults....you pathetic creature! All you do on here is pounce on anything NC, then have a go, agenda borne I suspect! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingeletiss Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Behave yourself, NC haters! I want the club to do well as much as anyone and NC has done a lot of good for us. Buti it's a perfectly valid question to ask. People love to refer to his talk of stadium expansion and the champions league, so why aren't we allowed to now talk about why we are taking out loans when he himself said clubs spend money they haven't got? Or is mentioning this only for people that hate NC? Turkish, I do have some time for you, but you also, seem to relish having a pop, not only at NC, but at MLG.........bullying of sorts imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Turkish, I do have some time for you, but you also, seem to relish having a pop, not only at NC, but at MLG.........bullying of sorts imho. I am honoured. I'm not having a pop at him, it's a perfectly valid point to make. He said clubs spend money they don't have, yet we are doing the same. In the same way that we were all lauding his ambition a few months back, shouldn't we also be asking the question regarding this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Reverting to insults....you pathetic creature! All you do on here is pounce on anything NC, then have a go, agenda borne I suspect! I think you need to sit back and read what is being said. Accusing me of having an agenda is triflingly pathetic; go and read my post on this page and tell me where I am "pouncing on anything NC". By that token I'd flip your insult and suggest you have an agenda with anyone who dares to question anything within the club and cannot bear to hear any criticism of anything so just sticks their fingers in their ears and blissfully ignores it. There we go; sweeping inaccurate generalisations are great, aren't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 I am honoured. I'm not having a pop at him, it's a perfectly valid point to make. He said clubs spend money they don't have, yet we are doing the same. In the same way that we were all lauding his ambition a few months back, shouldn't we also be asking the question regarding this? the question we should be asking really is how much our seeming lack of readies has effected team strengthening. Did we have what we needed or did we have to cut our recruitment because we couldn't muster enough to get the job done. Back in the summer everyone assumed that we could buy whatever we wanted (well within reason). If we needed to borrow to make ends meet then perhaps JRod and Ramirez weren't the best investments for the sum we had available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypochondriac Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 I think you need to sit back and read what is being said. Accusing me of having an agenda is triflingly pathetic; go and read my post on this page and tell me where I am "pouncing on anything NC". By that token I'd flip your insult and suggest you have an agenda with anyone who dares to question anything within the club and cannot bear to hear any criticism of anything so just sticks their fingers in their ears and blissfully ignores it. There we go; sweeping inaccurate generalisations are great, aren't they? That's exactly what he has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmacian_saint Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Also it maybe important to point out that we've had no transfer income this season yet our expenditure has increased considerably (not only on transfers but also wages and other things). Last season we didn't sign that many players and we had Chamberlain leaving for Arsenal, and the financial gap between League One and the Championship isn't as deep as it is to the Prem. So maybe we just need to help cash flow through these first months up until the extra Prem revenue comes by. The Liebherr's had to dig deep to take us up here. Not surprised that now they want to see Cortese deliver by himself. They will also want something back (hence the conversion of their loan into equity), which is only fair. We are probably in the only division of English football where a club can safely be self-sufficient and yet achieve higher and better things, so they probably want to see this happen. Now please, don't even think about caring about what they say down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Also it maybe important to point out that we've had no transfer income this season yet our expenditure has increased considerably (not only on transfers but also wages and other things). Last season we didn't sign that many players and we had Chamberlain leaving for Arsenal, and the financial gap between League One and the Championship isn't as deep as it is to the Prem. So maybe we just need to help cash flow through these first months up until the extra Prem revenue comes by. The Liebherr's had to dig deep to take us up here. Not surprised that now they want to see Cortese deliver by himself. They will also want something back (hence the conversion of their loan into equity), which is only fair. We are probably in the only division of English football where a club can safely be self-sufficient and yet achieve higher and better things, so they probably want to see this happen. Now please, don't even think about caring about what they say down the road. Yeah whatever. Who's up for a sit in protest after the Fulham game? We can really get our point across in front of the sky cameras. WE SHALL NOT BE MOVED! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Also now is probably not the best time to point out to the Cortese luvies that we had £33m of debt written off earlier this year with a net spend of only £3m on transfer fees. This I also find very worrying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Wanna make up an SOS saints Turkish? Or are you too far in with the trust? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Also now is probably not the best time to point out to the Cortese luvies that we had £33m of debt written off earlier this year with a net spend of only £3m on transfer fees. This I also find very worrying. Well that sum includes the original purchase price as well I think plus all the outlay from day 1 up until our promotion to the NPC. Not at all sure that it incudes anything concerning the transfer of AOC and increased revenue in the NPC, getting us back even to the NPC cost a lot of money because our player salarial mass was enormous for a League 1 club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melmacian_saint Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Also now is probably not the best time to point out to the Cortese luvies that we had £33m of debt written off earlier this year with a net spend of only £3m on transfer fees. This I also find very worrying. It was a loan by our owners, and it now means they effectively own the club!!! You seem to be the kind of person that if told there was an earthquake coming, would just tear his house down to avoid any harm before even it happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Well that sum includes the original purchase price as well I think plus all the outlay from day 1 up until our promotion to the NPC. Not at all sure that it incudes anything concerning the transfer of AOC and increased revenue in the NPC, getting us back even to the NPC cost a lot of money because our player salarial mass was enormous for a League 1 club. Its true it does include the purchase price, that's correct to point out. Also that it didn't include the AOC transfer fee incoming. However, by the same token, as much as our revenues went up slightly in the NPC our costs also vastly increased. Not least with the signing fees of Jack Cork, Steve de Ridder, Jos Hooiveld, Danny Fox, Tadanari Lee and Billy Sharp. Add in the extra wages of a net addition of 5 extra players (MLG provided a link to an article showing that Tadanari Lee was recruited on wages of £25K per week, which is £1.3M per year) and the costs are starting to rise considerably. Now, the gamble of those costs etc were of course justified, in that we have reached the Premier League where the revenues are astronomical in comparison to previous years. That said we've since gone and spent around £30M in transfers, there's a £15M training ground to be paid for, and wages are doubtless significantly increased. All the while we've raised little or no funding from outgoing players to offset that, and while the new loan in is a concerning addition, without it we'd have had to ask "where is the money coming from?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 It was a loan by our owners, and it now means they effectively own the club!!! They owned the club anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Hmmmm! What has happened to make him change this philosophy. We don't know whether or not he has changed his philosophy yet. Committing to a 'philosophy' is a long term mental investment. If this loan is merely a short term vehicle to get the club to the position where Cortese's long term philosophy can be realised then it is simply a means to an end, not a change in overall philosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 This is why I think that instead of having parachute payments (which just give relegated sides a big advantage and stifles competition in the champ) the money should be given to promoted teams to give them a chance to compete in that first crucial season in the prem. ^ This Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Window Cleaner Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 We don't know whether or not he has changed his philosophy yet. Committing to a 'philosophy' is a long term mental investment. If this loan is merely a short term vehicle to get the club to the position where Cortese's long term philosophy can be realised then it is simply a means to an end, not a change in overall philosophy. With our defence nothing is less certain than getting to a position where his long term project can be realised. Two more losses in the next 3 and we're probably goners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughing now Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 With our defence nothing is less certain than getting to a position where his long term project can be realised. Two more losses in the next 3 and we're probably goners. Oh we've run out of arguments against the supposed doomsday loan so we'll go off topic to keep the negativity going - am trying to guess if we'll end up bemoaning the lack of summer transfers or trying to predict when NC will chop Adkins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Oh we've run out of arguments against the supposed doomsday loan so we'll go off topic to keep the negativity going - am trying to guess if we'll end up bemoaning the lack of summer transfers or trying to predict when NC will chop Adkins. Don't forget Adkins tatical ineptness as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 How much of this money is going to Guly as well????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dig Dig Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 How much of this money is going to Guly as well????? Good point, clearly the loan is to pay the bumper wages to Cortese's boyz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Charlie Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Don't forget Adkins tatical ineptness as well. Still can't believe he didn't bring on Seaborne to man mark Scholes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearsy Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 So I'm thinking we've spent more this year than we're gonna earn from ticket sales and TV money. So if we go down, the first year parachute payments is already gone so we'll probably end up taking a loan against the second year parachute payments to finance a promotion push or whatever. If we still don't go up it's gonna get a bit messy... Best idea is probably not to get relegated. That's what I'd do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokyo-Saint Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Maybe NC spent some of it on that Brazilian virgin Windows has been trying to sell. All this talk about Guls feeling homesick, got to cheer him up somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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