Some Tweets Saying We Have Borrowed Against Future Season Ticket Sales

[Wes Tender]

It's not a surprise at all, even with League 1 and NPC expenditure on players we've been running at a loss for the last 3 seasons so where everybody thought we'd got the 30 million we've spent since last May from I just don't know. I don't think the PL give you money in advance so you've got to find it from somewhere and I don't doubt that the Swiss funds dried up ages ago. I don't even think Markus was all that rich, the Liebherr wealth which is always referred to means the other members of that illustrious family, didn't Markus give all his shares in the main Liebherr holdings away long long ago? I remember getting royally slagged off on here last year for suggesting that we were running up debts and would continue to do so, right again then ?

 

Markus Liebherr gave up his shares in the Liebherr company in order to start his own business from scratch. That business was Mali and was so successful that ML was worth about £2.75 billion or so. HTH.

[Window Cleaner]

But the worrying thing is IF the unthinkable happens and we go down, what then?!

 

Parachute payments and player sales, doubt if the loan that's being talked about runs into hundreds of millions. Probably more like 10 or 20 million which could be covered by selling a couple of players who'd probably want to leave anyway. Thing is though a couple of those would only have 1 year left on their contracts next June and we might not get as much as we might think.

[Saint Garrett]

Whilst this is a bit worrying, we don't know enough so everyone is just wildly speculating about things.

 

Also the title of this thread is completely wrong, we haven't borrowed against future season ticket sales, just one years parachute payment or TV money.

 

One final thing I might add (wildly speculating here) is that maybe we are just borrowing to improve our credit rating for the future? If the club was debt free, and has been debt free we have had no lines of credit, thus in the eyes of banks (particularly under the spotlight UK banks) our credit rating would be poor (+ football club + previously in admin football club) so to enable us to get a big loan in the future future investments (i.e new stadium mortgage etc.) we will need good credit to get it. Just a thought.

 

Definitely a hugely positive way of looking at it !!

[Saint Garrett]

Parachute payments and player sales, doubt if the loan that's being talked about runs into hundreds of millions. Probably more like 10 or 20 million which could be covered by selling a couple of players who'd probably want to leave anyway. Thing is though a couple of those would only have 1 year left on their contracts next June and we might not get as much as we might think.

 

Well I'd say our most valuable players are probably J-Rod, Ramirez, Lallana and Schneiderlin. They must all have contracts fr a few years yet !?

[OldNick]

It may be fanciful, but is there any possibility that NC has purchased the club from the family? Somebody could leverage the borrowing against the PP's much like the Glazers at Man u

[Mr Saints]

Cortese is a businessman, not a fan wearing red and white tinted glasses.

 

He knows what he's doing.

[mulletsaint]

The one thing I'm struggling is why would we take out a loan secured against future income and pay an APR when we have multi billionaire owners who are Apparantly backing us? Cortese has also said in the past that if a time does arrive where they wont or can't then he has other people who can. it doesn't stack up.

 

This is the issue for me. OK some on here have made reasonable arguments as to why we might have taken out this loan. Surely though if everything is a rosy as as NC has stated in the past and we do have the 5th richest owner in Christendom (or whatever), why are we bothering with loans of any type?

[Window Cleaner]

Markus Liebherr gave up his shares in the Liebherr company in order to start his own business from scratch. That business was Mali and was so successful that ML was worth about £2.75 billion or so. HTH.

 

I've never ever been able to confirm that, don't think anyone else has either. It's a speculative figure as far as I know.

Anyone who has written evidence of that figure could post up a link to it. Markus was a private man and I very much doubt that this information would be in the public domain.

[sandwichsaint]

I have asked questions about who is the ultimate owner of the club, and what the funding structure looked like a few times in the past. It seems a few more people are starting to get the picture that we are doing the same as Pompey did - splashing out tens of millions on fees and more on wages - players a club our size could not have dreamed about.

 

I hope we are living within our means but we have absolutely no way of telling that.

 

It's called being in the Prem league. The numbers both in and out are eye-watering, 'avg' players on 40k-50k a week, 20-30 players per club. You don't think this money comes out of the punters' ticket money do you? Pretty much all clubs in the Prem are run by either a sugar-daddy or on debt, why would we be any different?

 

It is a massivley difficult place to break into, as we are finding out now. Are people really suggesting we should have started the season with last year's team/squad? Is most people's reaction on hearing this news that they would rather claim a refund on Ramirez, hand him back and knock 10m-15m off the overdraft?

 

Man up a bit and believe. As we stand today and if we don't win another point this season we have 'guaranteed' big revenues for the next four years, stay up this year and we double/treble our money from next year. Worst case scenario is that the Markus money is all gone and there is no new money coming from the family, so what? Did people expect to be sugar-daddied for ever more?

 

If the club is now in a position where it has to stand on it's own commercial feet I couldn't imagine a person better placed to manage that whole scenario than NC.

 

Enjoy the ride, maybe even bring a friend on Sunday? Your club needs you!

[shurlock]

My guess?

 

I think we've probably overspent on our transfer/wages budget this summer in order to (we hope) acquire a PL quality squad and avoid relegation. We have funded that overspend via this reported load arrangement. In theory once you have established PL standard squad we can spend less in future and return to a more sustainable financial model.

 

Thats a OK theory - it may not work out like that in practice.

 

Agree with this - getting to the premiership requires an upfront, one-off payment -and the loan may have helped us bridge this need -after all, we probably didn't budget for or anticipate coming so far, so quickly. This is not to say we won't spend money in the future but the first year is always the hardest and most expensive. If we stay up, future years will be about tinkering and selectively adding to what we've got. Of course, if we spend £30m every year, that's a different proposition but there's no reason to believe we will.

[Frank's cousin]

That would be some impressive Iraqi Minister of Information-esque denial, considering there is a document lodged at Companies House which states that SFC has taken out a loan with a company registered in the British Virgin Islands, secured against broadcasting revenue for the 2013/14 season with a fixed and floating charge over the club's other assets.

 

That is an undeniable fact. What is unknown is the amount borrowed and the terms of the agreement in terms of the interest rate and when it is due to be repaid.

 

Ar but since when has factual information stood in the way of speculation, innuendo and panic!

 

Like most I had hoped that borrowings if needed would be from the Liebherr estate, and the fact that w ehave had to go elsewhere, is surprizing, yet reasonable. I have feck all idea on whether to be worried, concerned etc, and like most would welcome mor information before reaching for the exploding head panic button.

 

On the positive side though, the borrowing is secured a gainst a single season - that does not mean its 50 or 60 mil etc - its suggests the amount is well under that. Given that we have 30mil in transfers much potentially up front, + the staplewood development, I suspect that this is a short term cash flow supporting loan - in effect we have planned to spread the costs asssciated with thsi year over 2 seasons - this and next and given that it states its with the parachute amount, I suspect its only around 15-16mil or less to cover costs incurred this year.

 

How 'normal' this is and whether we shoudl be worried is difficult as it all depends on the terms and conditions etc - In addition, its clear to anyone that once again we have invested in Infrastructure... and player assests that retain their value - rather than just old names on big and long contracts.

 

I doubt this is totally risk free, what loan is, but I also dont think its of a level of risk that needs panic or major concern... More information would be nice, but is unlikely, and suggesting its a precurser to some pompeyesque financial meltdown is bonkers. It appears clear we have the means to repay it from existing revenues.

[Window Cleaner]

Anyway "the estate" is surely settled by now, whatever there was to be passed on has no doubt been passed on and the taxes paid. Perhaps we had a fixed trust fund or something and we've temporarily run over what was available. Might explain why we didn't blow another 20 million on 2 centre backs and a left back though.

Edited 4 October, 2012 by Window Cleaner

[Doctoroncall]

Parachute payments and player sales, doubt if the loan that's being talked about runs into hundreds of millions. Probably more like 10 or 20 million which could be covered by selling a couple of players who'd probably want to leave anyway. Thing is though a couple of those would only have 1 year left on their contracts next June and we might not get as much as we might think.

 

I would have thought it would have been closer to the £30m the club have spent but agree it would be covered by some inevitable player sales and topped up by the PP dependant on the agreed terms. At least there is the reassurance Cortese does not want to go beyond what is reasonable for this club with his statement regarding debt in the PL.

[NickG]

I hope people managed to control their anxiety and get some sleep?

 

my suggestions;

 

discuss options, chat about it,

 

but ffs accept you know f all about running football club, major company, football finances, what cortese thinks, the family's plans or finances, details of this loan.

 

fortunately, the bloke making the decisions knows all of these.

 

stop making up details to fit hysterical negative agendas.

 

the only relevance at all this info may have on me.... can't wait to watch Gaston again in few days, if this brought it over the line, great!

[Window Cleaner]

Well I'd say our most valuable players are probably J-Rod, Ramirez, Lallana and Schneiderlin. They must all have contracts fr a few years yet !?

 

I think Morgan and Adam's contracts are up in 2014, JRod has it all to prove as yet but as you say Ramirez is on a 4 year deal which has only just started.

[Window Cleaner]

It may be fanciful, but is there any possibility that NC has purchased the club from the family? Somebody could leverage the borrowing against the PP's much like the Glazers at Man u

 

 

In that case there would be something about owner change on the Companies House fact sheet woudn't there?

[Hatch]

I hope people managed to control their anxiety and get some sleep?

 

my suggestions;

 

discuss options, chat about it,

 

but ffs accept you know f all about running football club, major company, football finances, what cortese thinks, the family's plans or finances, details of this loan.

 

fortunately, the bloke making the decisions knows all of these.

 

stop making up details to fit hysterical negative agendas.

the only relevance at all this info may have on me.... can't wait to watch Gaston again in few days, if this brought it over the line, great!

 

 

^ This.

 

x 1,000,000

[Ivan Oar]

Here, here. He is a banker. I trust this one.

Calm down.

[jasoneuelllfanclub]

6 pages of hysteria over something that is not unusual and probably insignificant.

 

So what we have taken a loan out against future revenue.

 

I trust NC in the running of the club and l recall Nige saying previously the club will never go into administration under NC/Liebherr ownership. even taking worst case scenario i.e. relegation we have enough sellable assets and parachute payments to cover our backs plus players will have to take drop in wages (in contract terms).

[capitalsaint]

That sounds like the voice of experience. Do your ex-girlfriends usually end up in therapy?

 

I pick them up in the waiting room.

[stevegrant]

Here, here. He is a banker. I trust this one.

Calm down.

Yes, that's definitely reassuring.

 

[Frank's cousin]

Yes, that's definitely reassuring.

 

 

Aye but the Swiss seem to have avoided the mess created by those investment bankers in the UK and US...

[scotty]

I pick them up in the waiting room.

 

 

...and they said chivalry was dead.

[tajjuk]

I hope people managed to control their anxiety and get some sleep?

 

my suggestions;

 

discuss options, chat about it,

 

but ffs accept you know f all about running football club, major company, football finances, what cortese thinks, the family's plans or finances, details of this loan.

 

fortunately, the bloke making the decisions knows all of these.

 

stop making up details to fit hysterical negative agendas.

 

the only relevance at all this info may have on me.... can't wait to watch Gaston again in few days, if this brought it over the line, great!

 

Yep this, lots of people adding 2 + 2 and making 5 million!

 

Where has this 'massive spending on wages' come from? Ramirez is reported to be our highest earner on around £35k a week, that's not huge compared to Premier League standards at all, the likes of Rooney are on £150k a week, Pompey in 2008 were paying players like Glen Johnson £60k a week and several of them were on this amount. I doubt Adam Johnson took a huge pay cut going to Sunderland which puts him on around £100k a week.

[jayrivers]

Cortese has stated he wants the club to be self sufficient. I very much doubt we have that much cash floating around until we are given all the Prem payments for this year and next year. So the most likely explanation is it being a birdging loan which will be repaid when we get that money later this year and next year. There has been a lot of payments for players, training ground etc... Personally I wouldn't see this as a worry or a big deal. As others have said assuming the loan isn't huge it's going to be very manageable. Also I can't find this in any big news outlets which would also make me think it's not massive? I would think The Sun would have been all over it over-wise?

 

Thats my thoughts anyway!

[doddisalegend]

Not worried in the slightest. The loan was probably to fund the Ramires deal. If we go down we sell him and pay the loan off, seems simple and stress free to me.

 

What it if he suffers a career ending injury?

[Saint_clark]

Cortese has stated he wants the club to be self sufficient. I very much doubt we have that much cash floating around until we are given all the Prem payments for this year and next year. So the most likely explanation is it being a birdging loan which will be repaid when we get that money later this year and next year. There has been a lot of payments for players, training ground etc... Personally I wouldn't see this as a worry or a big deal. As others have said assuming the loan isn't huge it's going to be very manageable. Also I can't find this in any big news outlets which would also make me think it's not massive? I would think The Sun would have been all over it over-wise?

 

Thats my thoughts anyway!

 

Exactly, as long as it doesn't exceed our guaranteed income from Prem/parachute payments then we'll be OK. Of course we won't find out the amount as the club is under no obligation to tell us.

[Saint_clark]

What it if he suffers a career ending injury?

 

This kind of thinking is ridiculous in ANY kind of business, let alone football.

[stevegrant]

What it if he suffers a career ending injury?

I would be amazed/appalled if we didn't have insurance covering every single one of our players if that were to happen.

[Saint_clark]

I would be amazed/appalled if we didn't have insurance covering every single one of our players if that were to happen.

 

Surely that wouldn't even come close to covering his transfer fee though? I admit I have no idea how insurance works when it comes to football players.

[pingwing]

I think Morgan and Adam's contracts are up in 2014, JRod has it all to prove as yet but as you say Ramirez is on a 4 year deal which has only just started.

 

Adam was 4 and a half years last christmas in L1, can't remember if that is his last contract signed though, if it is then he's here till 2014. Morgan signed a new 3 year deal at the start of the season which makes it till 2015.

 

Gaston and Rodriguez are both 4 year contracts till 2016 I think

[dubai_phil]

It may be fanciful, but is there any possibility that NC has purchased the club from the family? Somebody could leverage the borrowing against the PP's much like the Glazers at Man u

 

Switzerland. The land of financial instruments and secrecy and Banking.

 

But also one of taxes.

 

Of course there is absolutely no likelihood that the Liebherr Estate is 1) Still in probate. 2) Is able to earn a return on long term investments of say 6% a year or 3 NC is not able to borrow from a Tax Free location leveraged against the assets of the family/will/trust because he can get the loan at say 2%

 

There is clearly not one single possible business reason, taxation reason whatsoever why something could be done this way. So I've happily spent the day running round in circles demanding that something must be done. It is great fun.

[Saint Charlie]

If we did go down we have easily enough assets that would be leaving anyway (due to not wanting to play in the Champ) that we could comfortably cover a loan assuming it isn't more than 25m or so. Not likely that we wouldnt be able to pay it back.

 

Its hard not to trust Cortese, he knows what he is doing I'm sure.

[Fitzhugh Fella]

From the words of Nicola Cortese himself, in May 2010. Source: his wiki page, from an interview with The Times.

 

 

 

I can only presume he's changed his mind.

 

 

 

Hmmmm! What has happened to make him change this philosophy. And before Dell Days tries to muck rake, I have been told nothing and I have not (yet) drawn any conclusions one way or another.

[Window Cleaner]

If we did go down we have easily enough assets that would be leaving anyway (due to not wanting to play in the Champ) that we could comfortably cover a loan assuming it isn't more than 25m or so. Not likely that we wouldnt be able to pay it back.

 

Its hard not to trust Cortese, he knows what he is doing I'm sure.

 

Little doubt about that, what is the point however is that the Swiss bags o money seem to be either temporarily or permanently unavailable and that the "no debt" principal seems to have gone out of the window.

[Colinjb]

What it if he suffers a career ending injury?

 

We are a Premiership football club, not Harchester United.

[Suomi Saint]

I wouldn't be overly concerned by this, Cortese knows what he's doing. After all, he bought the Saints for Markus for an absolute song. Okay, in future he may try and sell us, but I doubt that. He sees Saints as his little Empire and is probably too egotistical to give us up. Of course we must stay in the Prem to pay for everything - that's the conundrum, what does he do with Nigel if we lose a few more matches? Stick or twist?

[Window Cleaner]

I wouldn't be overly concerned by this, Cortese knows what he's doing. After all, he bought the Saints for Markus for an absolute song. Okay, in future he may try and sell us, but I doubt that. He sees Saints as his little Empire and is probably too egotistical to give us up. Of course we must stay in the Prem to pay for everything - that's the conundrum, what does he do with Nigel if we lose a few more matches? Stick or twist?

 

Personally I think that rightly or wrongly he'll twist if we should lose again on Sunday. Just my opinion though.

[stevegrant]

We are a Premiership football club, not Harchester United.

Not entirely sure I see what your point is... are you suggesting that players only get career-ending injuries in Roy of the Rovers?

[Window Cleaner]

Not entirely sure I see what your point is... are you suggesting that players only get career-ending injuries in Roy of the Rovers?

 

 

I thought that Roy played for Melchester Rovers. He's on a million a week now though and is worth more than the entire Crown Jewels. FFS how many strikers are there that score 70 a season.

[stevegrant]

I thought that Roy played for Melchester Rovers.

 

My mistake, Harchester Rovers was that horrendous Sky 1 show Dream Team, wasn't it

 

Still, the point stands. Players get injured, every transfer is a risk in that sense.

[Colinjb]

Not entirely sure I see what your point is... are you suggesting that players only get career-ending injuries in Roy of the Rovers?

 

A bit tenuous I grant you. .

 

There was a story line where Harchester spent all of their money on a star player called Luke Davenport in a gamble to get into the champions' league. Only a few games into his spell at the 'club' he suffered a career ending eye injury. The club didn't invest in insurance on their transfer and suffered the financial penalty...

 

Yes, it wasn't the best of shows, but it was a bit of football to balance out the period dramas on a sunday night.

[Saint_Jimmy]

I wouldn't be surprised that after exploring all options with the Ramirez deal and trying to structure payments etc as a last resort we had to stump up more cash than we had available.

 

As such a figure was burrowed to pay Bologna more upfront which we will now pay back in installments to the lender rather than in higher installments to Bologna (which was also gambling on future revenue)

[Gemmel]

THe fact that it is only secured against one years income, means the loan is less or equal to the frst year parachute payments (If it was hgher it would have been secured against the other years as well) which appears to be 16 million.

 

Given what we have spent on transfers, additional wages (Including the current squads wage going up due to promotion clauses) training ground and Aviva (4 million due on promotion to Premier league) then that is a realtively small amount.

 

We are a Premier league club, with Premier league expenses, but as yet without the Premiership money, which is staged payments throughout the year. Taking a step back, it is quite obvious there would have been a short fall and that some sort of funding would be required. I guess a lot of fans assummed that would come from the family, but the fact we are taking it from external sources, suggests that is no longer the case - Which I personally have no problem with. If that is taken as fact, then a lot of fans will need to reset their expectations.

 

What I do think is a positive, is the reaction on here from the fans. Whilst some posts are moaning at the reaction, I would point you down the road, where they questioned nothing, rolled over and had their belly's rubbed and just took everything for granted- They didn't even know there was still a charge on fratton park. So I actually find it quite reassurring that so many people are questioning it and exploring the "What if's".

 

It might not be the best analogy, but many years ago when I took a new job in London, I almost doubled my salary, but needed a loan for the train season ticket so I could get there.............. Saints are in the same position, the revenue will double. but they don't get it all at once and still have the higher costs to service in the mean time, so a loan is needed.

 

Let's just hope I am right :)

[Window Cleaner]

 

My mistake, Harchester Rovers was that horrendous Sky 1 show Dream Team, wasn't it

 

Still, the point stands. Players get injured, every transfer is a risk in that sense.

 

 

Indeed, I think at one time Saints stopped insuring players because it was too expensive, that was in the Lowe second coming days though. Remembering how long it took us to get very little money for Howells (I think it was he) you have to weigh up the risk and the costy. Don't doubt Ramirez is well insured though. Think it costs about 500K or something like that, insurance cost was what stopped Beckham playing for Tottenham last year and held up the T Henry loan to Arsenal for a couple of weeks.

[Cabrone]

This is why I think that instead of having parachute payments (which just give relegated sides a big advantage and stifles competition in the champ) the money should be given to promoted teams to give them a chance to compete in that first crucial season in the prem.

[COMEONYOUREDS]

this is definitely worthy of an explanation from saints i think

[Window Cleaner]

this is definitely worthy of an explanation from saints i think

 

 

as if that's very likely :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Turkish]

 

My mistake, Harchester Rovers was that horrendous Sky 1 show Dream Team, wasn't it

 

Still, the point stands. Players get injured, every transfer is a risk in that sense.

 

Harchester United FFS. Get it right. They still qualified for the champions league and won the FA cup despite most of their team dying in plane and coach crashes, their goalkeeper going mental, their star striker nailing the chairmans wife, who then became the chairwoman, hostile takeovers and corrupt owners, they even had some corrupt bitter ex player leaking club information under the user name 'dragon slayer' on their spazboard. Yet Linda Block was a proper chairwoman, never heard Carl Fletcher moaning he wasn't welcome at the club like MLT, she respected their legends. And she's proven that her skills aren't just limited to football ownership as she's now moved to Manchester and runs a very successful underwear business.

[Window Cleaner]

and runs a very successful underwear business.

 

so does Micky Fiaka's mum