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Some Tweets Saying We Have Borrowed Against Future Season Ticket Sales


Gemmel

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I have it on trusted authority that the Liebherr family are very much still behind us and this latest event is nothing to worry about.

 

I have no explicit details, but from a position of concern yesterday I am a lot more comforted.

did your source mention any reasons for the need to loan from a third party?

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Wasn't there rumours that the Ramirez deal was stalling because Bolgna wanted proof of funds for next years payment as it was not a straight cash deal? Perhaps this has something to do with the solution to that?

 

No club pays straight cash for players..The vast majority of the big fees are all based on instalments. How is that not borrowing against future season ticket funds?

 

It's common practice and why would Cortese go cap in hand for more millions when we just had £30m off them especially as he has a guarenteed £90m coming in over the next 4-5 years? Where do you think that £30m went? To pay off debt we had accrued....Money isn't pumped into the club daily it was paid off after the event.

 

Cortese is obviously confident that we can spend with little risk, I trust him it's not in his interest's to bankrupt the club (oh excuse me you know that 30m you turned to shares well now it's worth nothing as I ran the club into the ground!) and he seems a sensible sort of guy with money anway...

 

Storm in a tea cup and who is to say in future there won't be another cash injection to write off any more debt accrued?

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and he seems a sensible sort of guy with money anway...

 

what makes you say that? Knowing how to squeeze the last penny out of fans or racking up £21m of debt in three seasons? The fans keep paying and the side keeps winning so his decisions have been correct, but football is unpredictable, things could easily have been different. Can you tell me how he has demonstrated he is sensible with money? Yes I'm a cynic, indulge me.

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A loan to pay for our transfers is sensible as we want them at the front of the season and the revenue comes over the season. Also if we go down we sell the likes of Ramierez to pay off the debt as I doubt he and some others will want to play championship football.

where is the problem?

 

If we bought no one, would that have been better

SFC is afterall a business and businesses invest for future growth if they are to prosper

All investments contain risk the trick is balancing risk with reward!

Edited by Saint Without a Halo
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what makes you say that? Knowing how to squeeze the last penny out of fans or racking up £21m of debt in three seasons? The fans keep paying and the side keeps winning so his decisions have been correct, but football is unpredictable, things could easily have been different. Can you tell me how he has demonstrated he is sensible with money? Yes I'm a cynic, indulge me.

 

I did say "seems" so it's based on my perceptions rather than reality and hard evidence. That perception is fuelled mainly by by:

His previous jobs in which being extremely loose with money would not I assume be seen as an attractive trait. He was respected enough for Markus to employ him?

His position held within the company now..Saints is not his only interest for the company, he is obviously trusted.

The number of players we were rumoured not to have signed as he would not pay either over the odds or the wages for them. (perhaps that was all rubbish though?)

He may have racked up £21m of debt but did that ever seem to worry him? It never seemed a burden on the rare occasions he appeared on film in fact he spoke of greater things to come, almost as though he knew it would be cleared..which indeed it has been.

 

It's easy to say he spent too much the last few years and racked up debt but if he knew it would be cleared why wouldn't you?

 

Finally the only evidence I have...did we go into this season debt free after 3 years of him being in charge? Yes we did and we made it to the premier league. Seems pretty sensible to me! (ask that gold bloke how much it cost his club to get back?)

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I have it on trusted authority that the Liebherr family are very much still behind us and this latest event is nothing to worry about.

 

I have no explicit details, but from a position of concern yesterday I am a lot more comforted.

 

So they're still behind us. Does this mean the club must be run on a commercial basis but they step if things go belly up?

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I did say "seems" so it's based on my perceptions rather than reality and hard evidence. That perception is fuelled mainly by by:

His previous jobs in which being extremely loose with money would not I assume be seen as an attractive trait. He was respected enough for Markus to employ him?

His position held within the company now..Saints is not his only interest for the company, he is obviously trusted.

The number of players we were rumoured not to have signed as he would not pay either over the odds or the wages for them. (perhaps that was all rubbish though?)

He may have racked up £21m of debt but did that ever seem to worry him? It never seemed a burden on the rare occasions he appeared on film in fact he spoke of greater things to come, almost as though he knew it would be cleared..which indeed it has been.

 

It's easy to say he spent too much the last few years and racked up debt but if he knew it would be cleared why wouldn't you?

 

Finally the only evidence I have...did we go into this season debt free after 3 years of him being in charge? Yes we did and we made it to the premier league. Seems pretty sensible to me! (ask that gold bloke how much it cost his club to get back?)

 

I don't know if he is sensible with money or was a successful banker. Being a Swiss banker doesn't mean you are necessarily either, but he's done very well for himself and he's been very successful at SFC that's for sure. However criticising other clubs for spending future income and then doing exactly the same is hypercritical. I'm sure he has everything in hand, but one admin was more than enough and I don't want to see risks taken.

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I'm a little reassured by what I've heard this evening.

 

This isn't any ITK knowledge at all.

 

But I am told this would be a be highly tax efficient way of injecting cash into the club (considerably more tax efficient that the Liebherrs writing a cheque for the same amount, by way of hypothetical example....)

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I'm a little reassured by what I've heard this evening.

 

This isn't any ITK knowledge at all.

 

But I am told this would be a be highly tax efficient way of injecting cash into the club (considerably more tax efficient that the Liebherrs writing a cheque for the same amount, by way of hypothetical example....)

 

Sounds like ballcocks to me. The Liebherrs could simply loan cash to the club, there is no tax payable on that. Or they could purchase newly issued shares and provide direct equity capital. There is no tax on that either.

 

Whatever the reason we are borrowing money, it isn't because it is more tax efficient.

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A loan to pay for our transfers is sensible as we want them at the front of the season and the revenue comes over the season. Also if we go down we sell the likes of Ramierez to pay off the debt as I doubt he and some others will want to play championship football.

where is the problem?

 

If we bought no one, would that have been better

SFC is afterall a business and businesses invest for future growth if they are to prosper

All investments contain risk the trick is balancing risk with reward!

 

This, especially the highlighted bit.

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Sounds like ballcocks to me. The Liebherrs could simply loan cash to the club, there is no tax payable on that. Or they could purchase newly issued shares and provide direct equity capital. There is no tax on that either.

 

Whatever the reason we are borrowing money, it isn't because it is more tax efficient.

 

No APR either.

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I'm a little reassured by what I've heard this evening.

 

This isn't any ITK knowledge at all.

 

But I am told this would be a be highly tax efficient way of injecting cash into the club (considerably more tax efficient that the Liebherrs writing a cheque for the same amount, by way of hypothetical example....)

 

I suppose the loan could be written off against tax.

 

Cortese may be a lot of things to some people. But he's a shrewd businessman. Even his most vociferous opponent couldn't argue against that. He's not Peter Risdale ffs.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19819177

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Yes, for the BVI company making the loan - if we default on it!

 

No tax advantage for us as a club.

 

Thinking about this, there may be an angle but I'm no accountant so could be way off beam.

 

If our tv money goes in this years income pot but we somehow defer payments of transfer fees into the following year then we could, on paper, make a profit. If we have a loan could that reduce the profit and thus our tax liability. Interest on a loan is at a lesser rate than tax.

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Remember cash flow does not equal the assessed net profit figure. Both income and expenditures can be smoothed out through accrual accounting.

 

Quite apart from that, us taking out a loan doesn't affect the amount of tax we pay! Interest payments on loans can be deducted from operating profits, but if we have a profit of 20 million and a loan of 15 million we don't pay tax on 5 million. No idea where you get that idea from!

 

Quite apart from all this, Southampton Football Club has been and continues to run at an operating loss, so we are not generating any profits to pay taxes on.

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Cortese does not have a record of being an idiot with money. We are not going to to given an explanation of why we have taken this route but I am prepared to accept that there are good reasons. It seems to me from this thread that there are a lot of people who want to worry themselves into an early grave over what is common business practice.

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Sounds like ballcocks to me. The Liebherrs could simply loan cash to the club, there is no tax payable on that. Or they could purchase newly issued shares and provide direct equity capital. There is no tax on that either.

 

Whatever the reason we are borrowing money, it isn't because it is more tax efficient.

 

It's certainly not immediately obvious how this could be tax-efficient from a corporate perspective.

 

But perhaps the angle is tax-efficiency for Liebherr personal wealth?

 

i.e. They don't have to dip into their personal wealth which has already been taxed and is probably being used to make more money. Instead, the company burdens itself with the debt and attempts to pay down the debt operationally using next season's additional TV revenue.

 

If, and only if the club doesn't do this, they will then stomp up the cash from personal wealth. Probably through another round of converting SFC's debt to the Liebherrs into shares. If the club does pay down the debt then the Liebherr's might have saved themselves a few quid at the expense to SFC of the interest paid.

 

Just a thought.

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Naturally if any business runs at an operating loss for years and the level of accumulated debt is greater than the asset value of the company (the pompey model) then the business becomes insolvent.

 

There is a difference though between looking towards financing growth - standard business practice - or it used to be before the 2007 mare an d banks stopped lending to companies...

 

Seems to me, going by what little factual information is available, that this is standard case of the club needing cash NOW to cover investments that would normally be spread over 3-4 years (as most transfers are, or infrastructure developments etc) - possibly Bologna and the Staplewood development are being paid in full over a short term - so the club has 'borrowed' this cash from another source to ensure these bills are paid. I suspect that had the transfers been paid over the contractual length, we would probably not have needed it.

 

The only time to worry is when the level of debt is in excess of the asset value surely, of if the debt is being accumulated not on assets but on excessive wages etc - eg our liabilties exceed our revenue year after year.

 

We dont know the resons, the amount etc, but we do know the time frame is 1 year, and that includes 1 year of parachutes which means the borrowings must be under 16mil - which would seem about right if we have been forced to pay for Ramirez up front. That 16mil against a club worth around 40-50mil, but with player assets that would more than cover that should it ever be needed...

 

So the borrowing does not worry me, but its likely that it was a late decision based on the terms of the Raierez transfer chaging from the expected norm. The time I will woryy is when our annula cost exceed our annual income, not when we have had to fund 100% of projects or players in 1 year when they would normally have been spread over 2 or 3, from income we are guaranteed whether in the prem or from parachutes.

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A loan to pay for our transfers is sensible as we want them at the front of the season and the revenue comes over the season. Also if we go down we sell the likes of Ramierez to pay off the debt as I doubt he and some others will want to play championship football.

where is the problem?

 

If we bought no one, would that have been better

SFC is afterall a business and businesses invest for future growth if they are to prosper

All investments contain risk the trick is balancing risk with reward!

 

This - well put mate.

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Who gives a flying f*ck!? Honestly, 11 pages?? Im sure of you guys only come out of the woodwork when news like this comes out.

 

Its perfectly normal practice, and I for one am not the slightlest bit worried about, why should I be??

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Sounds like ballcocks to me. The Liebherrs could simply loan cash to the club, there is no tax payable on that. Or they could purchase newly issued shares and provide direct equity capital. There is no tax on that either.

 

Whatever the reason we are borrowing money, it isn't because it is more tax efficient.

 

The company in this case does NOT get to deduct the interest on the loan meaning the tax implications are that SFC's taxable income is increased by (1-the corporate tax rate) multiplied by the interest repayments. Everything has a tax effect.

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Who gives a flying f*ck!? Honestly, 11 pages?? Im sure of you guys only come out of the woodwork when news like this comes out.

 

Its perfectly normal practice, and I for one am not the slightlest bit worried about, why should I be??[/QUOTE]

 

I'm sure I said the same when Leon crouch gambled everything on promotion......................

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Cortese does not have a record of being an idiot with money. We are not going to to given an explanation of why we have taken this route but I am prepared to accept that there are good reasons. It seems to me from this thread that there are a lot of people who want to worry themselves into an early grave over what is common business practice.

 

some of us, having seen our great club and the **** one down the road get close to liquidation, are not happy to just stick our heads in the sand and say "He is Swiss, of course he knows what he is doing. They are all great with money over there, especially the bankers." We want to be sure. We can do **** all other than ask questions. it costs nothing to do that. if you don't give a ****, that is fine. Watchign Saints is a past time, a hobby after all. But for those that nutjobs, to coin a phrase, that like to monitor every move made by the club, this action must be highlighted, discussed and questioned. It's not worrying. Personally I've got far bigger things to fret over, and no one is adding grey hairs as a result, its just the interweb

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Who gives a flying f*ck!? Honestly, 11 pages?? Im sure of you guys only come out of the woodwork when news like this comes out.

 

Its perfectly normal practice, and I for one am not the slightlest bit worried about, why should I be??[/QUOTE]

 

I'm sure I said the same when Leon crouch gambled everything on promotion......................

 

Michael Wilde.

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It's certainly not immediately obvious how this could be tax-efficient from a corporate perspective.

 

But perhaps the angle is tax-efficiency for Liebherr personal wealth?

 

i.e. They don't have to dip into their personal wealth which has already been taxed and is probably being used to make more money. Instead, the company burdens itself with the debt and attempts to pay down the debt operationally using next season's additional TV revenue.

 

If, and only if the club doesn't do this, they will then stomp up the cash from personal wealth. Probably through another round of converting SFC's debt to the Liebherrs into shares. If the club does pay down the debt then the Liebherr's might have saved themselves a few quid at the expense to SFC of the interest paid.

 

Just a thought.

 

I can't see how it would be more efficient from the Liebherr's perspective either. The whole tax efficient thing sounds like BS to me. The point of registering companies in the BVI is secrecy, not tax planning. Tax evasion maybe, but not legitimate tax planning.

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The company in this case does NOT get to deduct the interest on the loan meaning the tax implications are that SFC's taxable income is increased by (1-the corporate tax rate) multiplied by the interest repayments. Everything has a tax effect.

 

Taking a loan doesn't increase your taxable income. The interest payments come OUT of your profit as interest expense, and hence your taxable income is lowered. However, you are of course paying the interest on the loan so this has an overall negative effect on the clubs profitability.

 

Any way, Saints are running at a huge loss so they are not paying corporate in the first place.

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Who gives a flying f*ck!? Honestly, 11 pages?? Im sure of you guys only come out of the woodwork when news like this comes out.

 

Its perfectly normal practice, and I for one am not the slightlest bit worried about, why should I be??[/QUOTE]

 

I'm sure I said the same when Leon crouch gambled everything on promotion......................

 

Every successful business rises money to invest for future profit/success the issue to understand is does the risk taken match the probability of reward

in the case of betting the kitchen sink on promotion it certainly didint

here we would need to understand the amount borrowed, the terms of the loan and the criteria and probability for success to understand if it makes good business sense

as the saying goes to be a winner you need to take part not being in the race to avoid the risk of falling over or losing cannot produce a winner

Edited by Saint Without a Halo
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I recall the skates saying exactly the same thing. Didn't quite work out like that with TBH did it?

 

Big difference though Chez - Skates were simply spending on wages for assets that no longer had any value and inexcess of annual revene - with their 'plan' relying on annual cash injections from their numerous owners to make up teh shortfall - without ever being concerned with that money being there or where it came from from, or eeven if there was ever any intention of paying it intothe club - and over some 7 years!

 

By all sensible accounst it 'appears' that we have operating costs within our revenue forecasts, but needed a short term cash boost to cover some captial expenditure and player transfer contracts that were outside the norm (money up front rather than spread over 2 or 3 years) - so its quite a different scenario, even if teh skates like to think its the same.

 

Not saying its not something we should discuss or ask questions about - that is right and proper, just think in this case and at this time, the 'conern' over it is probably not necessary. If we end up having to do this every year with the amount owed growing year on year, then we MUST be concerned and prepared to voice that concern, but for a short term loan against guarranteed earnings, I must admit seems a big fuss over nothing IMHO.

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11 pages and as far as I can tell absolutely nothing on this media wise bar a few tweets right at the start. Considering the Echo has done two articles already on work stopping at the training already, surely if this was an issue the media would have reported on it?

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Big difference though Chez - Skates were simply spending on wages for assets that no longer had any value and inexcess of annual revene - with their 'plan' relying on annual cash injections from their numerous owners to make up teh shortfall - without ever being concerned with that money being there or where it came from from, or eeven if there was ever any intention of paying it intothe club - and over some 7 years!

 

By all sensible accounst it 'appears' that we have operating costs within our revenue forecasts, but needed a short term cash boost to cover some captial expenditure and player transfer contracts that were outside the norm (money up front rather than spread over 2 or 3 years) - so its quite a different scenario, even if teh skates like to think its the same.

 

Not saying its not something we should discuss or ask questions about - that is right and proper, just think in this case and at this time, the 'conern' over it is probably not necessary. If we end up having to do this every year with the amount owed growing year on year, then we MUST be concerned and prepared to voice that concern, but for a short term loan against guarranteed earnings, I must admit seems a big fuss over nothing IMHO.

 

That's probably a fair assesment. I think it's justifible for people to be a little concerned given our recent history and our chairmans, as highlighted earlier in this thread, comments about debt...but as the details are pretty sparse on what the club has done I don't think we can panic yet.

Edited by doddisalegend
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some of us, having seen our great club and the **** one down the road get close to liquidation, are not happy to just stick our heads in the sand and say "He is Swiss, of course he knows what he is doing. They are all great with money over there, especially the bankers." We want to be sure. We can do **** all other than ask questions. it costs nothing to do that. if you don't give a ****, that is fine. Watchign Saints is a past time, a hobby after all. But for those that nutjobs, to coin a phrase, that like to monitor every move made by the club, this action must be highlighted, discussed and questioned. It's not worrying. Personally I've got far bigger things to fret over, and no one is adding grey hairs as a result, its just the interweb

 

So to get this straight, your not happy yet not a nut job or worried at all? But do reserve the right to question what ever they do?

 

The problem is that what ever they do, you have no influence over. We can just look at past history, see what has actually been done and judge accordingly. Even when we fully knew that Crouch was slamming us into future administration by increasing the wage bill, it was ok because he was not a banker but a fan. Then you can write off £30+M in loan notes and still be viewed as untrustworthy.

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Aren't we all just feeling a bit guilty for all the stick we've given the lot down the road considering their story, and desperately trying to make a point to their online community/twitterers?

Not at all. Not remotely similar.

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Who gives a flying f*ck!? Honestly, 11 pages?? Im sure of you guys only come out of the woodwork when news like this comes out.

 

Its perfectly normal practice, and I for one am not the slightlest bit worried about, why should I be??

This. Anything to whinge about. Stop on training ground building while a few minor glitches are sorted. Whinge. Few bods who work a couple of hours a month laid off. Whinge. We borrow money. Whinge.

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