Training Ground Development - "temporarily suspended"

[Turkish]

no no..this cant be the case...Fitzhugh Fella is "not surprised" by the delay...without giving any details but giving an impression..and others had "heard of things going wrong" etc

 

Believe it or not Dulldrums a lot of local people are working on the development Or associated to the development and also work at the club. they wil also know local people, some of which will be saints fans and might well post from time to time on and Internet spaz board about the club they support. People do talk to each other in the real world Dulldrums, especially if it's a subject they are mutually interested in, such as a football club, as odd as that concept might sound to you.

Edited 4 October, 2012 by Turkish

[Thedelldays]

Believe it or not Dulldrums a lot of local people are working on the development Or associated to the development and also work at the club. they wil also know local people, some of which will be saints fans and might well post from time to time on and Internet spaz board about the club they support. People do talk to each other in the real world Dulldrums, especially if it's a subject they are mutually interested in, such as a football club, as odd as that concept might sound to you.

stop calling me dulldrums...i thought we were e-friends

[Special K]

I've worked in the construction industry for 28 years and have never know a job to stop over a specification issue. The usual reason is a problem with planning, a serious health & safety breach or the client going bust/shelving the project. I've just spoken to the groundworks contractor and they aren't even allowed on site to get their machines, and SFC have put there own security on the gates rather than Leadbitter's. They had no forewarning that works on site were going to be suspended.

 

Interesting! If the site is on lock down then there must be a potentially serious problem. Leadbitters are wholly owned by Bouygues, a huge French Contractor (who also own Warings) so i cannot imagine that they have any financial problems and they would be able to meet their obligations. Wonder what the issue is? I know NC had a little spat with another Contractor (Farnrise) who were originally to build the previously designed scheme some time ago, so he no stranger to dispute!

[Norm]

stop calling me dulldrums...i thought we were e-friends

 

If you and Turkish have a 'special' relationship, I would rather you PM'd. I have a quesy disposition.

[The9]

never said I did...or didnt..but I did not weigh in with the "yep, ive heard this is coming"....and "im not surprised"....obviously, not giving away any facts but a few posts suggesting something is wrong at the club......

 

its like clockwork

 

You didn't have to say that you were making out that you knew exactly what would happen on the thread, you actually did it in the quote. Like clockwork. But yes, many other people are also acting as expected.

[trousers]

I'm led to believe that Leadbitters are preparing a statement right now.....

 

I take it they haven't got their speed typist on the case? :-)

[Crazy Diamond]

Believe it or not Dulldrums a lot of local people are working on the development Or associated to the development and also work at the club. they wil also know local people, some of which will be saints fans and might well post from time to time on and Internet spaz board about the club they support. People do talk to each other in the real world Dulldrums, especially if it's a subject they are mutually interested in, such as a football club, as odd as that concept might sound to you.

 

Where's that then? Link?

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Fitzhugh Fella. The silent stirrer.

 

Manji - the anonymous keyboard warrior

[Fitzhugh Fella]

Believe it or not Dulldrums a lot of local people are working on the development Or associated to the development and also work at the club. they wil also know local people, some of which will be saints fans and might well post from time to time on and Internet spaz board about the club they support. People do talk to each other in the real world Dulldrums, especially if it's a subject they are mutually interested in, such as a football club, as odd as that concept might sound to you.

 

Dull Days does not live in the real world Turkish - he and his wife Manji live in cyberspace all the while terrified that the peasants will revolt and unseat their masters.

[manji]

Manji - the anonymous keyboard warrior

Im not surprised by that post.I knew there was something going on.....................

[mightysaints]

There is a dispute between the Architect and the club hence the stoppage on site. Its a real mess, the Architect was originaly employed by the club and was on insistance from the club employed by Leadbitter. Saints want to change/sack the Architect. Its a real mess and hearing from Leadbitters management team working for Saints is prooving to be very difficult. To many details to go into here but it looks like Saints don't seem to have any idea about building contracts. The QS working for Saints is having a nightmare sorting this out.

[St_Tel49]

Well it had been a little dull, letting that club down the road have all the turmoil and intrigue for so long. We were about due our own little share.

TBF the only turmoil and intrigue that has been generated has been on here. I love the way that some on here create scenarios based on the square root of F**k A** actual knowledge and then go off on multi-post rants about it.

[Turkish]

TBF the only turmoil and intrigue that has been generated has been on here. I love the way that some on here create scenarios based on the square root of F**k A** actual knowledge and then go off on multi-post rants about it.

 

Are you sure this is the spaz board for you sir?

[Gingeletiss]

TBF the only turmoil and intrigue that has been generated has been on here. I love the way that some on here create scenarios based on the square root of F**k A** actual knowledge and then go off on multi-post rants about it.

 

Same old posters as well, both they and we know who they are!

[Turkish]

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/sport/saints/news/9969197.Staplewood_redevelopment_stoppage__just_a_pause__say_contractors/?ref=rss&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

It's okay everyone, Leadbitter have said it's all okay

[Dimond Geezer]

I've been told there are problems with the existing structure,.

 

I've heard this too, sometime ago. I haven't posted this before because I thought the source was a bit dodgy ie a ground worker & in my 27 years in the construction industry, I've yet to find a groundworker who's an expert in structures, however, he may have been right.

 

the Architect was originaly employed by the club and was on insistance from the club employed by Leadbitter.

 

It's not at all unusual for the Architect, Engineer or any other consultant used in the pre-contract stage to be novated across to the contractor.

Edited 5 October, 2012 by Dimond Geezer

[Secret Site Agent]

Hey it's alright. According to my sources, it has been agreed to pause the process whilst details of a specific aspect of the specification is confirmed.

I can't reveal my sources, (see Turkish post 166) but once this aspect is confirmed, the works will continue.

 

Sorry, had to bite.

 

My guess is a change in the offing to allow us to still be at the top level for training, so they are having to have a rethink regarding changing the spec to make it Futureproof. Plenty akers will be involved, as stopping work mean paying an agreed 'standing time' for the machines and workforce. And I can't see that coming out of SFC coffers unless it really is a client change, and the Risk Register identifies it. For the layman, this means that a flat schedule of rates will be paid daily to the contractor for his plant, and his men SHOULD still be paid, but at a flat rate, which is hard as if they were getting say 50 hours/week, they may now only 37.5 - 39. And standing is a regular occurence, more common than not with a lot of newer schemes using more innovative processes, as the cost of rework is normally much higher than just waiting to do it correctly first time.

I have been stood down in the past for a specificational glitch for concrete for a central reserve barrier, (to do with the stuff in the concrete that isn't cement and water), stood down because of a change in the waste regs due to us tendering a job before april to remove a carriageway with 0.1 % tar bound material, which was below the trigger level for contamninated, and going to remove it when the job started after april to find it was now classed as contaminated, (this cost 200k and, you guessed it, you loverly boys paid for that mistake.) I've also been stood down because of Badgers, Newts, Dormice, and a microsnail (Desmoulin's whorl snail, which didn't stop the Newbury bypass strangly enough). I'm on stop now because of Asbestos cement sheeting used as permenant formwork, which wasn't identified at tender stage.

 

unfortunatly I must exclude myself from the argument over builders and Architects, on account of being a Civil Engineer.

 

Wish I had got involved sooner, to clear this up.

 

Perhaps NC should employ a decent company to provide it. We'll do it for a fee, modest of course, and ensure the job is future proofed.

[Secret Site Agent]

I've been told there are problems with the existing structure, this will be down to SFC to resolve-not sure why this would lead to the contractor being booted off site though.

 

Problems with the structure would NOT lead to a contractor being removed from site. It's very difficult to remove a contractor from site and normally requires a lot of time and perhaps dough. If there was a problem, they would write to the contractor, give him a time frame to resolve, and if he doesn't, then get it resolved by someone else and charge the contractor for it. The same with any professional if they are at fault, that is why we carry Professional Indemnity insurance. It's normally the other way round with a contractor walking off of site, but here he leaves himself open to the same charges.

 

Also told relationship between all involved is rather fractious.

 

Yep. That NEVER happens. Try attending a meeting involving a government department. When the brown stuff hits the fan, everyone blames everyone else. Contractors blame the Designer/Architect, Designer/Architect blames the client., Client blames everyone especially the contractor. And the problem with clients, (and some of the poor devils on Cowboy Builders) is that any change COSTS MONEY!!!!!!!!!! You may think you can change the size of the fencing, Mr Bloody Client, and you think just because I haven't put it up yet, it's not a problem. But if it takes 6 weeks to manufacture, 2 weeks to deliver, I ordered it 8 weeks ago and have to pay for it, so does the client, who don't like that.

[Sour Mash]

Hey it's alright. According to my sources, it has been agreed to pause the process whilst details of a specific aspect of the specification is confirmed.

I can't reveal my sources, (see Turkish post 166) but once this aspect is confirmed, the works will continue.

 

Sorry, had to bite.

 

My guess is a change in the offing to allow us to still be at the top level for training, so they are having to have a rethink regarding changing the spec to make it Futureproof. Plenty akers will be involved, as stopping work mean paying an agreed 'standing time' for the machines and workforce. And I can't see that coming out of SFC coffers unless it really is a client change, and the Risk Register identifies it. For the layman, this means that a flat schedule of rates will be paid daily to the contractor for his plant, and his men SHOULD still be paid, but at a flat rate, which is hard as if they were getting say 50 hours/week, they may now only 37.5 - 39. And standing is a regular occurence, more common than not with a lot of newer schemes using more innovative processes, as the cost of rework is normally much higher than just waiting to do it correctly first time.

I have been stood down in the past for a specificational glitch for concrete for a central reserve barrier, (to do with the stuff in the concrete that isn't cement and water), stood down because of a change in the waste regs due to us tendering a job before april to remove a carriageway with 0.1 % tar bound material, which was below the trigger level for contamninated, and going to remove it when the job started after april to find it was now classed as contaminated, (this cost 200k and, you guessed it, you loverly boys paid for that mistake.) I've also been stood down because of Badgers, Newts, Dormice, and a microsnail (Desmoulin's whorl snail, which didn't stop the Newbury bypass strangly enough). I'm on stop now because of Asbestos cement sheeting used as permenant formwork, which wasn't identified at tender stage.

 

unfortunatly I must exclude myself from the argument over builders and Architects, on account of being a Civil Engineer.

 

Wish I had got involved sooner, to clear this up.

 

Perhaps NC should employ a decent company to provide it. We'll do it for a fee, modest of course, and ensure the job is future proofed.

You haven't cleared anything up. Why exactly do you think the job has been stopped? And why don't you think Saints will be paying for this delay?

[Secret Site Agent]

You haven't cleared anything up. Why exactly do you think the job has been stopped? And why don't you think Saints will be paying for this delay?

 

 

OK, let me lay it down for you.

My source is Turkish. His source is the Echo. I cut and pasted the item from the Echo into here. I had a little joke with you. I put the LOL on the end to show I did this for fun.

In my own professional opinion I'm guessing it is related to a thing called 'Future Proofing' which means that, as an extreme example, putting on an Asbestos roof back in the 80's when you know that Asbestos is going to be banned in the near future. So a change in spec means a redesign. They may even be looking at making it a Passivhaus, which is a type of construction that doesn't need heating or lighting because it's design incorporates a lot of insulated materials and strategically placed windows and skylights.

Hope this helps.

[Sour Mash]

OK, let me lay it down for you.

My source is Turkish. His source is the Echo. I cut and pasted the item from the Echo into here. I had a little joke with you. I put the LOL on the end to show I did this for fun.

In my own professional opinion I'm guessing it is related to a thing called 'Future Proofing' which means that, as an extreme example, putting on an Asbestos roof back in the 80's when you know that Asbestos is going to be banned in the near future. So a change in spec means a redesign. They may even be looking at making it a Passivhaus, which is a type of construction that doesn't need heating or lighting because it's design incorporates a lot of insulated materials and strategically placed windows and skylights.

Hope this helps.

Fantastic update

[Guan 2.0]

OK, let me lay it down for you.

My source is Turkish. His source is the Echo. I cut and pasted the item from the Echo into here. I had a little joke with you. I put the LOL on the end to show I did this for fun.

In my own professional opinion I'm guessing it is related to a thing called 'Future Proofing' which means that, as an extreme example, putting on an Asbestos roof back in the 80's when you know that Asbestos is going to be banned in the near future. So a change in spec means a redesign. They may even be looking at making it a Passivhaus, which is a type of construction that doesn't need heating or lighting because it's design incorporates a lot of insulated materials and strategically placed windows and skylights.

Hope this helps.

 

Shuttup you, it's obviously so Clotese can build a snack creche were he can eat babies, looser floorboards so he can stash the BVI gold, and a monkey-chicken petting zoo, of course.

[up and away]

Originally Posted by

Sour Mash

 

You haven't cleared anything up. Why exactly do you think the job has been stopped? And why don't you think Saints will be paying for this delay?

 

 

 

 

OK, let me lay it down for you.

My source is Turkish. His source is the Echo. I cut and pasted the item from the Echo into here. I had a little joke with you. I put the LOL on the end to show I did this for fun.

In my own professional opinion I'm guessing it is related to a thing called 'Future Proofing' which means that, as an extreme example, putting on an Asbestos roof back in the 80's when you know that Asbestos is going to be banned in the near future. So a change in spec means a redesign. They may even be looking at making it a Passivhaus, which is a type of construction that doesn't need heating or lighting because it's design incorporates a lot of insulated materials and strategically placed windows and skylights.

Hope this helps.

 

Really poor, dude. If you can't envisage the carnage these reports will create, you really need to think again. Work has stopped and the possibility exists it will never start again. Or if it does start it's going to cost us millions and put the whole financial structure of the company in jeopardy.

 

Anyone would think you liked Coretese and the accident of our current resurgence is somehow related to him? Let's get you back on track with a subtle Napoleon complex fronted by Berlusconi type bunga, bunga parties masquerading as fans dinners.

[derry]

There is a dispute between the Architect and the club hence the stoppage on site. Its a real mess, the Architect was originaly employed by the club and was on insistance from the club employed by Leadbitter. Saints want to change/sack the Architect. Its a real mess and hearing from Leadbitters management team working for Saints is prooving to be very difficult. To many details to go into here but it looks like Saints don't seem to have any idea about building contracts. The QS working for Saints is having a nightmare sorting this out.

 

This sounds realistic. Architect agrees- ok, Architect disagrees- sack, client thinks he can do what he likes,( but only if he pays ), Contractor piggy in the middle wants to be paid, QS can only cost changes, in the end the client will have to pay only still doesn't realise yet he can't do what he likes without paying. It's how contractors make money.

[bridge too far]

This sounds realistic. Architect agrees- ok, Architect disagrees- sack, client thinks he can do what he likes,( but only if he pays ), Contractor piggy in the middle wants to be paid, QS can only cost changes, in the/ end the client will have to pay only still doesn't realise yet he can't do what he likes without paying. It's how contractors make money.

 

This. Leadbitters (used to) work predominately in the public sector (a lot of the hospital contracts I audited used them). I think I'm right in saying they nearly went to the wall a few years ago and I didn't realise Bouyges had taken them over.

 

The big construction companies often rely on changes to specification post contract signature to make money, it is alleged.

[Special K]

Leadbitter aren't a "big" contractor (they'd fall into the SME bracket), but a reasonably sized regional firm, owned wholly by a huge european company. The trade press said they'd suffered some financial difficulty a few years ago - hence the takeover. They've been pretty busy recently winning work, allegedly on tight to negative margins, but this is hardly unusual in the current climate. Regarding the Architect, as DG said the Architect is usually novated over to the contractor under a D&B contract as they Contractor takes the risk for the design. If it is a D&B contract I suspect there is the usual conflict between Employers Requirements and Contractors Proposals and nobody wants to pay.

[Secret Site Agent]

Really poor, dude. If you can't envisage the carnage these reports will create, you really need to think again. Work has stopped and the possibility exists it will never start again. Or if it does start it's going to cost us millions and put the whole financial structure of the company in jeopardy.

 

Anyone would think you liked Coretese and the accident of our current resurgence is somehow related to him? Let's get you back on track with a subtle Napoleon complex fronted by Berlusconi type bunga, bunga parties masquerading as fans dinners.

 

Christ, i wish i hadn't even bothered.

I don't know why, I was just satirising the goings on here.I just took the reports and gave an informed view based on my 20 years in construction.

Edited 5 October, 2012 by Secret Site Agent

[Frank's cousin]

Were their using someone elses plant? JCB or something rather than the obvious? I think we should be told:scared:

[buctootim]

Christ, i wish i hadn't even bothered.

I don't know why, I was just satirising the goings on here.I just took the reports and gave an informed view based on my 20 years in construction.

 

erm I think he was joining you in with satire not having a go

[CityRanger]

Wow! Just read the last couple of pages. This is one seriously dull thread...

[BadgerBadger]

Doldrums = a dull, listless, depressed mood; low spirits. Goes some way to describing certain threads

[Gordon Mockles]

Surprised to see Jordan Sibley forced by his master to comment about anything that concerns rumour and innuendo. Rarely happened before...

 

I know, odd. It all sounds very familiar. Next thing you know, we'll get irritating users posting sychophantic cr*p, dig digging up any anti chairman posts & trying to manipulate the forum mood. Oh wait....Hoho ;0)

 

It is amusing how opinions annoy some so much. It begs the question, why visit a forum? Unless they prefer clueless nodding & inane mutual agreement. There's nothing like healthy debate. Live with it.

 

Regarding the complexities of the construction process Steve enquired about, it's likely not design & build & likely the project management route as mentioned with a main contractor being overseen by the Architects along with, I would assume, an M&E consulting engineer. Whether structural consultants were also used prior to construction, I would not know. A job of this ilk would likely be carried out in this manner with the Architect having control from start to finish. So, in essence, the Architect working directly with the club & project managing the main contractors, consulting engineers & all associated contractors. Because of this structure, if major or substantial deviations were made, documentation & amendments would need to be drawn up & approved to legally & officially protect the contractors, sub contractors & consultants; otherwise they could end up doing work out of spec which the club could refuse to pay. I'm not saying this is what happened but it's a distinct possibility & could fit the profile of our chairmen. It could also be wild conjecture but its worth posting just to irritate questionable posters that like to dig, dig!! :0)

[Gordon Mockles]

Fitzhugh Fella. The silent stirrer.

 

How can someone stir, which in essence must be talking or "chatting" on a chat forum, silently?

 

That makes as much sense as your past reasoning behind supporting our last chairmen and look at how well that turned out?

 

Petty people with axes to grind aside, the new site at Staplewood will look good once it's done. I believe, personally, there has been a design change & the paperwork (drawings, specs & such) is currently underway. I have drawn many a site & building plan over my career & generally, when you have just finished the drawings & specs, the lag in processing that work allows just enough time for the Architect & client to change their mind again. More frustrating if structural or construction since it had a knock on effect to all the coordinated M&E services within the design so you have to go through the entire process again. It's the nature of engineering. Annoying but it pays the bills.....if they pay on time!

[lordswoodsaints]

It seems The contractors are concerned about the players training at the same time as the work is going on,guly and Rodriguez keep knocking the brickies off of the scaffold with their wayward shooting.

[EastleighSoulBoy]

I wonder if the fact we have no information and it's a really boring subject will stop arguments...

 

Sorry for the late reply, had to buy a new keyboard.

[oldsarum]

There is a dispute between the Architect and the club hence the stoppage on site. Its a real mess, the Architect was originaly employed by the club and was on insistance from the club employed by Leadbitter. Saints want to change/sack the Architect. Its a real mess and hearing from Leadbitters management team working for Saints is prooving to be very difficult. To many details to go into here but it looks like Saints don't seem to have any idea about building contracts. The QS working for Saints is having a nightmare sorting this out.

 

 

As a QS this all sounds very familiar, we're always the ones trying to clear up the mess when there are disputes on projects and trying to agree the Final accounts are often a nightmare

[The Kraken]

Sorry for the late reply, had to buy a new keyboard.

 

What happened to your old one?

[Secret Site Agent]

erm I think he was joining you in with satire not having a go

 

Then my apologies to all:lol:

[Turkish]

Anyone know if they've been paid yet so can get on with the job?

[captainchris]

As a QS this all sounds very familiar, we're always the ones trying to clear up the mess when there are disputes on projects and trying to agree the Final accounts are often a nightmare

 

From what i have heard today the theme of not paying for work done on sometimes rather spurious reasons is not uncommon at St Mary's and indeed rather more 'normal' than this thread suggests. I have been told today that there are other cases pending from the hospitality refurb - not fact you understand just people from the companies concerned telling me some details today........where bills may not have been paid in full resulting in arbitration which came out in favour of the contractor......OK - if, the work was shoddy fine but ........sometimes it's very difficult to deal with certain companies who never pay up........Some companies are determined not to pay the full bill and search for the slightest detail to withhold. I would not suggest that the people I have spoken to today would lay that at the door of St Mary's though!

Call it good business - call it bad business - my call is not good but maybe I am not hard enough and maybe some builders are not god enough but I'd say on the balance of probability that it's a shame that some building projects at St Mary's seem to have gone wrong and with a dilligent and fastidious Chairman you would be surprised of any hickups......if there are any of course.......!!!!

[Dan]

From what Ive been told from my man in the know, Cortese is being a knob as per, but it seems to have been sorted for now and work should continue in the next few days.

[Turkish]

From what Ive been told from my man in the know, Cortese is being a knob as per, but it seems to have been sorted for now and work should continue in the next few days.

 

Maybe he offered to let them install his personal toilet at SMS?

[spyinthesky]

Another linked rumour

 

Apparently Mr Cortese is having some building work undertaken at his Chilworth home

 

The have been payment delays to the contractor based on accusations of 'shoddy' work!!

[The Kraken]

Another linked rumour

 

Apparently Mr Cortese is having some building work undertaken at his Chilworth home

 

The have been payment delays to the contractor based on accusations of 'shoddy' work!!

 

Is he having a personal toilet installed?

 

I'm starting to think Little Nicky might have OCD.

[Toomer]

Is he having a personal toilet installed?

 

I'm starting to think Little Nicky might have OCD.

 

No he is having the hand cart built that he will end up taking the club to hell in.

[S-Clarke]

No he is having the hand cart built that he will end up taking the club to hell in.

 

Calm down.

[once_bitterne]

Calm down.

 

Let Toomer say his piece.

 

I mean we've gone from L1 to the PL in less than 3 years (in a hand cart).

 

I'm surprised that Cortese hasn't been publicly flogged yet.

 

(or at least had a visit from Chuckles Chorley and his associates at his garden gate).

[JackanorySFC]

Randomly a mate of mine actually fitted Cortese's new bathroom early this year. Didn't like the "trendy" square toilet in place and got it replaced with something more "traditional". Has done a few jobs at NC's place, says his missus makes a decent brew and he gets paid on time so (sorry to not have anything bad to say) a perfect customer.

[Window Cleaner]

Randomly a mate of mine actually fitted Cortese's new bathroom early this year. Didn't like the "trendy" square toilet in place and got it replaced with something more "traditional". Has done a few jobs at NC's place, says his missus makes a decent brew and he gets paid on time so (sorry to not have anything bad to say) a perfect customer.

 

 

When my Mrs pays the bills they get paid on time, when I pay them the f*ckers usually get to wait.

[manji]

Randomly a mate of mine actually fitted Cortese's new bathroom early this year. Didn't like the "trendy" square toilet in place and got it replaced with something more "traditional". Has done a few jobs at NC's place, says his missus makes a decent brew and he gets paid on time so (sorry to not have anything bad to say) a perfect customer.

This cant be true. Too many people have "heard" things about Cortese. Talk to your mate again you probably misheard him.The story is riddled with holes anyway.Italians cant make tea.Fact.