derry Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Often clients want alterations/design changes after the commencement without understanding the cost implications. Often micro managers go to meetings and issue instructions, the architect issues variations/drawings and the work is carried out but there is never an price agreed before commencement. Consequently when the cost escalates the client has a problem because they thought they could just change things not realising the ramifications ending in a dispute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucks Saint Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Defaulted on the loan already and Vibrac Corporation taken possession? Yikes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrant Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Let's face it, Cortese is known - rightly or wrongly - as a bit of a control freak. It's not beyond the realms of probability that he's demanded that things be changed at the last minute which has meant the contractors have had to down tools and quite literally go back to the drawing board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 @jordansibley: Surprised to see a mountain being made out of a molehill regarding the pause in work at Staplewood. SFC and Leabitter have agreed to pause process whilst details of a specific aspect of the specification is confirmed. Project will be resuming very soon and both parties are looking forward to the project being completed ahead of the 2013-14 season. Nothing to be concerned about at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Chalet Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Let's face it, Cortese is known - rightly or wrongly - as a bit of a control freak. It's not beyond the realms of probability that he's demanded that things be changed at the last minute which has meant the contractors have had to down tools and quite literally go back to the drawing board. Surely not @jordansibley: Surprised to see a mountain being made out of a molehill regarding the pause in work at Staplewood. SFC and Leabitter have agreed to pause process whilst details of a specific aspect of the specification is confirmed. Project will be resuming very soon and both parties are looking forward to the project being completed ahead of the 2013-14 season. Nothing to be concerned about at all! Oh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Surprised to see Jordan Sibley forced by his master to comment about anything that concerns rumour and innuendo. Rarely happened before... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trousers Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Surprised to see Jordan Sibley forced by his master to comment about anything that concerns rumour and innuendo. Rarely happened before... Just waiting for him to publish the Virgin Island loan arrangement details now...j Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Surprised to see Jordan Sibley forced by his master to comment about anything that concerns rumour and innuendo. Rarely happened before... Indeed, 'we won't comment on ever piece of rumour and speculation' were the words used I believe. Why start now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maysie Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Indeed, 'we won't comment on ever piece of rumour and speculation' were the words used I believe. Why start now? Because it is all going to the wall... We're well and truly ****ed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Indeed, 'we won't comment on every piece of rumour and speculation' were the words used I believe. Why start now? Saying "we won't comment on every rumour", doesn't mean they won't comment on some. Plus, in any case it was on his personnel Twitter account, not the club's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Saying "we won't comment on every rumour", doesn't mean they won't comment on some. Plus, in any case it was on his personnel Twitter account, not the club's. The same twitter account he uses for lots of club information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Indeed, 'we won't comment on ever piece of rumour and speculation' were the words used I believe. Why start now? Maybe Jordan is having a quiet night, perusing the mongboards, and fancied responding. Boy oh boy is Unkie Nic gonna be upset with him tomorrow for allowing any sort of news getting out responding to rumour and conjecture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Le God Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 The same twitter account he uses for lots of club information. What about my first sentence? Saying "we won't comment on every rumour", doesn't mean they won't comment on some. Also Cortese used this interview to deny the rumour the club was being sold... http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/s/southampton/9269293.stm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Saying "we won't comment on every rumour", doesn't mean they won't comment on some. Plus, in any case it was on his personnel Twitter account, not the club's. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Marco Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Jesus some of you really do need to get off the computer sometimes.... Any little thing comes out = same faces turn it into some giant ****storm to beat the club with. Someone comments that giant ****storm is not accurate and explains why = attack the guy! I serioulsy do not know how people can live their lives in such negativity. It makes this forum boring as hell that is for sure.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Maybe Jordan is having a quiet night, perusing the mongboards, and fancied responding. Boy oh boy is Unkie Nic gonna be upset with him tomorrow for allowing any sort of news getting out responding to rumour and conjecture. He'll probably be taken off bath running duties as punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 What about my first sentence? Also Cortese used this interview to deny the rumour the club was being sold... http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/s/southampton/9269293.stm What about it? As Krackers says Sibley commenting on his personal twitter account on rumours isn't going to go down well in Cortese towers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Jesus some of you really do need to get off the computer sometimes.... Any little thing comes out = same faces turn it into some giant ****storm to beat the club with. Someone comments that giant ****storm is not accurate and explains why = attack the guy! I serioulsy do not know how people can live their lives in such negativity. It makes this forum boring as hell that is for sure.... Have you got that evidence yet that the training ground development is being paid for up front? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Benali Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Could the mods not make a seperate forum for those guys? My kids are less childish then that and they are three! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maysie Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 They don't comment on speculation so they're seen as bad communicators and not 'listening' to what fans want. They do comment and we're annoyed they've gone back on their word. I wouldn't comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 They don't comment on speculation so they're seen as bad communicators and not 'listening' to what fans want. They do comment and we're annoyed they've gone back on their word. I wouldn't comment. We can disregard it as as MLG says its on his personal twitter account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 They don't comment on speculation so they're seen as bad communicators and not 'listening' to what fans want. They do comment and we're annoyed they've gone back on their word. I wouldn't comment. Yep, it's entirely that black and white. Congratulations, though. Condensing it into 2 or 3 sentences is a pretty good effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Marco Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Have you got that evidence yet that the training ground development is being paid for up front? I never said it was being paid up front. I said how did you know it wasen't being paid? I don't know how construction business works and by all accounts people say they are paid when they complete the job. Which means how the **** can you criticise them for not paying when it is normal to not pay until then end?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkish Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 I never said it was being paid up front. I said how did you know it wasen't being paid? I don't know how construction business works and by all accounts people say they are paid when they complete the job. Which means how the **** can you criticise them for not paying when it is normal to not pay until then end?! On projects like this they are usually paid in stages, such as when phases of work are compete. Or in this case not paid in stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maysie Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Yep, it's entirely that black and white. Congratulations, though. Condensing it into 2 sentences is a pretty good effort. No problem. Not sure what your original point was anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Kraken Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 I never said it was being paid up front. I said how did you know it wasen't being paid? I don't know how construction business works and by all accounts people say they are paid when they complete the job. Which means how the **** can you criticise them for not paying when it is normal to not pay until then end?! Marco; where did I say I knew? I said I assumed. But I will say this; I assumed based upon the fact that the large scale construction projects I've previously been associated with (of which there have been many through my business), you'd be a f*cking terrible businessman to pay 100% up front. It just isn't done; you normally pay a deposit up front, then stage payments throughout the build, and a final payment upon final completence and acceptance. We keep getting told on here that Nicola Cortese is a wonderful businessman; yet maybe you're right, maybe he ignored all that, maybe he did pay up front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smirking_Saint Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 You've changed your tune a fair bit. Not really, this happened last year as I was involved in certain parts of certain projects, Im not going to go into detail. Cortese isnt whiter than white but I just dont conform to the idea that he is the devil either. Some of the hounding he got for issues that had little or no evidence was frankly pathetic. Ask yourself would you want the head of the business being a pushover ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egg Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Or in this case not paid in stages. An assumption, or based on knowledge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CB Fry Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Alan Nixon told me about this weeks ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Marco Posted 3 October, 2012 Share Posted 3 October, 2012 Marco; where did I say I knew? I said I assumed. But I will say this; I assumed based upon the fact that the large scale construction projects I've previously been associated with (of which there have been many through my business), you'd be a f*cking terrible businessman to pay 100% up front. It just isn't done; you normally pay a deposit up front, then stage payments throughout the build, and a final payment upon final completence and acceptance. We keep getting told on here that Nicola Cortese is a wonderful businessman; yet maybe you're right, maybe he ignored all that, maybe he did pay up front. Again I never said he paid up front. I didn't indicate he had paid. I simply asked how you knew that we haden't. As you said "We have yet to pay for the training ground ". No word of an assumption with it so you can't blame me for saying what I said. Point was none of us have a clue what is going on. Cortese is as secret as secret gets. The problem is anytime anything normal happens some try and turn it into something negative. In Bishops Waltham where I live they are supposed to be building a Sainsburys. They started to build it for a few weeks then stopped. Nothing was done for months. Does that mean Sainsburys has no money? The reason it was stopped was because of a planning problem. Something was changed from the planning order and that was what was being looked at. What is to say this isn't something similar? If it was then that would just be normal, you sound like you have experience with construction process so i'm sure you would agree that sometimes things stop for various reasons, probably more then not it isn't because of money. This hounding of MLG for saying what he said is stupid. Nobody can predict the future. Even Turkish said in the Ramirez thread that he wouldn't sign. Anytime Ramirez is mentioned should someone mention that he said he wouldn't sign? If they did wouldn't you agree that would get really tedius after awhile? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian lord Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 I reckon the builders have just ****ed off to start another job this week without telling NC and will turn up again out of the blue in a few days to do a bit more as if nothing had happened. Or maybe NC's missus hasn't been making then enough cuppas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan The Flames Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Who will be paying the prelims during the down time will indicate whose caused the delay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amazing Hangover Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Contracts can be a nightmare and complicated if you do not know what you are doing, particularly for work with a lot of specialised elements in it like building a training ground - a bit different to building a house. The spec for this would run to hundreds of pages. If you start altering the spec after the contract has been agreed the builders rub their hands in glee as this is where they make their money. On some projects they make nothing without alterations. In reality there will be lots of changes throughout the contract and the budget nearly always goes over as you can never think of everything. However even changes which the client may feel are minor or have no cost implications can come back to bite you big time. Any alterations or extra work needs agreeing and signing in blood. And of course there is the other side where the client (usually an arrogant sort) doesn't see why he should bend to the hired help and tries to rip the builders off. I have friends who make a hansom living banging heads together in precisely this situation - it is very common. So lets hope that it gets sorted, because as soon as the lawyers arrive the costs go through the roof if you loose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Great stuff this! I'm looking forward to the film or TV series on it. We need something to fill in when Downton Abbey ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank's cousin Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 feck, do some of you guys not believe in the moon landings, or been watch Capricorn one again - Wa sit a CIA conspiracy to kill john Lennon and did George Bush order 9/11? Only those on SWF know the truth to these and other mysteries it seems.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tajjuk Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 @jordansibley: Surprised to see a mountain being made out of a molehill regarding the pause in work at Staplewood. SFC and Leabitter have agreed to pause process whilst details of a specific aspect of the specification is confirmed. Project will be resuming very soon and both parties are looking forward to the project being completed ahead of the 2013-14 season. Nothing to be concerned about at all! Seems a sensible and reasonable explanation. Probably why it has been overlooked, why spoil a good bout hysteria posting? Also no one pays for construction projects up front, it's all in stages, builders need working capital for materials, sometimes they get credit accounts, there are sub contractors to pay, unseen expenses, insurance, security etc etc. It's all very complicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 @jordansibley: Surprised to see a mountain being made out of a molehill regarding the pause in work at Staplewood. SFC and Leabitter have agreed to pause process whilst details of a specific aspect of the specification is confirmed. Project will be resuming very soon and both parties are looking forward to the project being completed ahead of the 2013-14 season. Nothing to be concerned about at all! no no..this cant be the case...Fitzhugh Fella is "not surprised" by the delay...without giving any details but giving an impression..and others had "heard of things going wrong" etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special K Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 It all depends upon the contract and the stoppage can be instigated by either party until forward agreement has been reached. If you have little in terms of time penalties this can happen far more readily because you can invoke a stoppage at less cost. This type of contract will already cover everything down to the method of adjudication should both parties hit a wall. I have seen instances where contractors have had to draw a line in the sand because of bankruptcy fears, others where the client believes they are being shafted because of changes to the original specification or errors never picked up by either party relating to planning. This will get solved relatively quickly unless one of the parties is about to go bust and is no where near as dramatic as what it first sounds. It is an impasse between both parties on the way forward of an obstacle and will get settled by adjudication of some means. Firstly there is no such thing as a "penalty" under construction contracts; it is a common misconception. There are damages, (Liquidated Damages under current JCT contracts) which are a pre determined estimate of likely actual loss suffered due to time delays on a scheme, and they only apply to a Client. If a Contractor is delayed for reasons attributable to the Client, then he is theoretically entitled to an EOT and associated Loss and Expense incurred due to that delay. Also, it is highly unlikely that either party will invoke their rights under the contract for a stoppage on site. Generally, Contractors do so because they haven't been paid and Clients do it because the Contractor isn't proceeding regularly and diligently with the works. Works can stop due to the discovery of endangered wildlife or a find of historical interest for instance, but this is not very common. In my experience, works do not stop on site unless there is a reasonable problem. Specfication issues, as this is being touted as, are resolved constantly as work progresses. It is the job of the Client and the Contractor to foresee issues and resolve them in time for construction works to progress as programmed. It will depend upon the form of contract of course, but i would be suprised if the whole design team has not foreseen a specification issue that causes works to come to a halt. I reckon there is likely to be something more and it will be interesting to see if anything comes out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The9 Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 I bet this goes like most rumours from the club.. Fitzhugh, hypo and Turkish all of a sudden say they have "heard about this"...we will go on to about 300 posts once MLG comes in.....then when the truth comes out, everyone will be way off the mark.... Don't forget the bit where delldays comes along and makes out he knows exactly what will happen though... oh, you didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COMEONYOUREDS Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 the vast majority of people on here have absolutely no idea how a construction project works. this is a pretty common occurrence and not worth worrying about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thedelldays Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Don't forget the bit where delldays comes along and makes out he knows exactly what will happen though... oh, you didn't. never said I did...or didnt..but I did not weigh in with the "yep, ive heard this is coming"....and "im not surprised"....obviously, not giving away any facts but a few posts suggesting something is wrong at the club...... its like clockwork Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toofarnorth Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Well it had been a little dull, letting that club down the road have all the turmoil and intrigue for so long. We were about due our own little share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucks Saint Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 the vast majority of people on here have absolutely no idea how a construction project works. this is a pretty common occurrence and not worth worrying about Sorry but I have previously commissioned both a major new patio and a brick BBQ rebuild. In neither case did this occur so I smell a major scandal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tajjuk Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Sorry but I have previously commissioned both a major new patio and a brick BBQ rebuild. In neither case did this occur so I smell a major scandal Ah yes but I presume you did't change your mind half way through and decide that actually rather than a BBQ you wanted a Pizza oven (and yes people have outdoor pizza ovens) Nicola Cortese strikes me as a man who might change his mind and want a pizza oven. They are properly hagglling over the positioning of the new 30ft high statue of himself that Nicola wants on the roof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HedgeEnder Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 Firstly there is no such thing as a "penalty" under construction contracts; it is a common misconception. There are damages, (Liquidated Damages under current JCT contracts) which are a pre determined estimate of likely actual loss suffered due to time delays on a scheme, and they only apply to a Client. If a Contractor is delayed for reasons attributable to the Client, then he is theoretically entitled to an EOT and associated Loss and Expense incurred due to that delay. Also, it is highly unlikely that either party will invoke their rights under the contract for a stoppage on site. Generally, Contractors do so because they haven't been paid and Clients do it because the Contractor isn't proceeding regularly and diligently with the works. Works can stop due to the discovery of endangered wildlife or a find of historical interest for instance, but this is not very common. In my experience, works do not stop on site unless there is a reasonable problem. Specfication issues, as this is being touted as, are resolved constantly as work progresses. It is the job of the Client and the Contractor to foresee issues and resolve them in time for construction works to progress as programmed. It will depend upon the form of contract of course, but i would be suprised if the whole design team has not foreseen a specification issue that causes works to come to a halt. I reckon there is likely to be something more and it will be interesting to see if anything comes out. I've worked in the construction industry for 28 years and have never know a job to stop over a specification issue. The usual reason is a problem with planning, a serious health & safety breach or the client going bust/shelving the project. I've just spoken to the groundworks contractor and they aren't even allowed on site to get their machines, and SFC have put there own security on the gates rather than Leadbitter's. They had no forewarning that works on site were going to be suspended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 I've worked in the construction industry for 28 years and have never know a job to stop over a specification issue. The usual reason is a problem with planning, a serious health & safety breach or the client going bust/shelving the project. I've just spoken to the groundworks contractor and they aren't even allowed on site to get their machines, and SFC have put there own security on the gates rather than Leadbitter's. They had no forewarning that works on site were going to be suspended. That does sound like a fairly serious problem then. Take it they didn't have any idea for the reason for suspending work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suntouched Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 I'm led to believe that Leadbitters are preparing a statement right now..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 I've been told there are problems with the existing structure, this will be down to SFC to resolve-not sure why this would lead to the contractor being booted off site though. Also told relationship between all involved is rather fractious. Not surprising though since NC fell out with the original planning team that got the initial planning consent and despite personally approving all of the scheme he refused to pay them anything of the pre-agreed fee which I understand was around £50k. As mentioned this was for the initial scheme not the project currently underway( or not). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucks Saint Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 NC to don dayglo vest and helmet and do the job himself then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manji Posted 4 October, 2012 Share Posted 4 October, 2012 no no..this cant be the case...Fitzhugh Fella is "not surprised" by the delay...without giving any details but giving an impression..and others had "heard of things going wrong" etc Fitzhugh Fella. The silent stirrer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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